Any recommendations for brands?

Monster Power
Adcom
PS Audio
etc?

I'm looking to spend ~250.00US for a device which can provide line
conditioning and surge protection.

Thanks.

--
Lucas Tam )
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

"Lucas Tam" wrote in message

Any recommendations for brands?

Monster Power
Adcom
PS Audio
etc?

I'm looking to spend ~250.00US for a device which can provide line
conditioning and surge protection.

Got some specific problems or just general malaise or money burning a hole
in your pocket?

In most cases you could just send me the money, and get the same improvement
in sound quality.

Lucas Tam wrote:

Any recommendations for brands?

Monster Power
Adcom
PS Audio
etc?

I'm looking to spend ~250.00US for a device which can provide line
conditioning and surge protection.

Thanks.

Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and pick up a $20 (or even less,
provided both lines are covered) surge protector. Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as some of
the tweako freakos claim, no appliances would work properly.

Howard Ferstler

"Arny Krueger" wrote in
:

Got some specific problems or just general malaise or money burning a
hole in your pocket?

In most cases you could just send me the money, and get the same
improvement in sound quality.

My area has really poor power... I get blackouts every other thunderstorm.

Also, if I'm using Dolby Pro Logic IIx with a 2 channel source... my rear
speakers sometimes have a hiss. I'm hoping that filtering the power will
reduce the hiss.



--
Lucas Tam )
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

Howard Ferstler wrote in
:

Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as some of
the tweako freakos claim, no appliances would work properly.

Hmmm so the perceived benefits are most likely a placebo effect huh?

I was hoping to find a way to reduce the static hiss when I am using Dolby
Pro Logic IIx with 2 channel sources.

--
Lucas Tam )
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

In most cases you could just send me the money, and get the same
improvement
in sound quality.



Only if Arny is properly plugged in. The light show ain't bad, either.

In article ,
Lucas Tam wrote:

Also, if I'm using Dolby Pro Logic IIx with a 2 channel source... my rear
speakers sometimes have a hiss. I'm hoping that filtering the power will
reduce the hiss.

How would the quality of the power effect only some channels, in some
DSP modes?

--
Matthew Weigel
the email address is real
the contents of the post are not

Lucas Tam wrote:

Howard Ferstler wrote in
:

Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as some of
the tweako freakos claim, no appliances would work properly.

Hmmm so the perceived benefits are most likely a placebo effect huh?

Like many / most after-market add-ons.


I was hoping to find a way to reduce the static hiss when I am using Dolby
Pro Logic IIx with 2 channel sources.

Why do you think the ac power is responsible for that ?

You may typically get 'clicks' on an ac circuit from poorly suppressed
thermostats and the like though.

Having said all that - a good quality surge protector can be of benefit in a
general sense ( protection against over voltage damage ) rather than
specifically for audio.

You won't cure blackouts or even brownouts with a filter / surge arrestor
though.


Graham

"Lucas Tam" wrote

Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as
some of the tweako freakos claim, no appliances
would work properly.

Hmmm so the perceived benefits are most likely a placebo
effect huh?

Neither Howard or Arny have any experience with line
conditioners. Many audio stores will allow you to demo
these devices for free so there is no financial risk.

"Lucas Tam" wrote

Any recommendations for brands?

Monster Power
Adcom
PS Audio
etc?

I'm looking to spend ~250.00US for a device which can
provide line conditioning and surge protection.

Line conditioning is a very generic term.

Power conditioners appear to fall into four different
classes:

1. General filtering
2. Specialized filtering: analog, digital, power amp
3. Specialized filtering with isolated transformers
4. Power regeneration

A power conditioner that utilizes isolated transformers
would be ideal for testing in your system. Unfortunately,
all of these are outside your $250 budget limit.

FYI...

Nigel's Power Line Conditioner Info Sheet
©2000

V 1.15
This document may be copied so long as it is copied in it's entirety,
including copyright, and so long as it is not posted to
rec.audio.high-end

Sections:

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
III. HTML Links
IV. Specific Products & Technology
V. Cheap Tweaks for the Dangerously Inclined
VI. Closing Comments

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
=====================================
Before there was such a market for high end tweaks and buzz words in high
end audio/video companies like APCC & Tripplite among many others were
already making power conditioners for the computer and electronics industry.
These devices are still made and they are used to provide voltage regulation
for devices like copiers. They used transformers with multiple taps, and as
the input voltage surges or sags the relays or transistors in the power
conditioner would switch among the different transformer taps. I thought
Tice or Audio Power made a similar device, but I seem to be mistaken. Two
good source of non- esoteric power line conditioners are
www.furmasound.com and www.equitech.com. Pretty good looking stuff if
you have common surge/sagging problems.


Today there are many things called a line conditioner, and they are not all
the same. In general a power line conditioner can be everything from a
power strip with surge protection to larger, beefy boxes that do a variety
of things to the incoming AC power.

A line conditioner may have some features to do the following:

1. Filter the AC signal so you get closer to
an ideal 60 Hz signal.
2. Provide surge protection
3. Provide Under / Over voltage protection
(turns off)
4. Provide Under / Over voltage regulation
(keeps the output voltage constant)
5. Provide power outage protection
(like an Uninterruptable Power Supply)
6. Provide a lower apparent impedance to the source
(like PS Audio, Elgar, etc.)

Different products work differently, and will have different feature mixes.
The heavier, the more you are paying for, so beleive it or not the cost per
pound is a good indicator of how much is going into the product, and a good
guage of how much you should be paying for it. If you just spent $1,300 on
a power strip you can pick up with your pinky, you paid too much. Articles
in Hi Fi News and Record Review (a brit mag) in 1998-99 give some insight
into building your own.

Alas not all filtration is the same. Products which claim to filter RFI/EMI
only start to work at around 100 kHz or higher, which is far above human
audibility. The theoretically ideal power line filter would filter out all
signals below and above 60 Hz.

II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
============================
II.a: NEEDS
Unless you suffer from chronic over/under voltages at your house then
chances are you don't really need a power conditioner, the system will work
reliably without it.

You may very well find that surge protection is important to you. Check out
the separate "Nigel's Surge Supression Info Sheet".

If you're buying some fancy power line conditioner that is supposed to
include surge protection, ask them if the equipment has been certified to
UL 1449 Second Edition. I have yet to see an audio equipment
"Conditioner" manufacturer that claims surge supression publish any sort
of UL or CSA listing on their web site, so be careful about relying on them
for surge supression. This does not include Monster Cable's strips, they
are primarily a surge supressor, with noise filters added, and are in
fact UL 1449 certified.

II.b: WANTS
Audio/videophiles WANT power conditioners because they feel it will
improve the quality of their listening or viewing experience. How much
of an audible or visible difference a power line conditioner will make in
your world depends on the following:

1. The quality of your incoming AC power.
2. The quality of your components power supplies.
3. The resolution of your system
(Fix your room acoustics first, then
worry about power line issues)
4. The effectiveness & features of the
line conditioner.
5. How much noise the line conditioner itself
actually creates
(a potential problem in a UPS)
6. What frequencies the power conditioner's filtration
is effective at.
7. Your gullibility

An example of exceptional power supply design is found in much of Krell
and Mark Levinson equipment some of which use fully regulated, fully
balanced power supplies. This is a rare thing, but any potential benefit
from a power conditioner may be a mute point with this equipment. Most
amplifiers use unregulated, but highly filtered power supplies, relying on
the incoming AC voltage remaining constant, and large capacitors to
reduce any noise on the line.

II.c: WON'Ts
One thing most line conditioners don't do is fix ground loop problems (i.e.
a loud 60 Hz hum you hear coming from your speakers), in some cases
they can actually make things worse by improving the connection to ground
of your equipment. The ideal way to fix a ground loop problem is to use
signal level isolation transformers between your system and the source of
the problem, which is often the cable TV or a computer connection. Check
out:

www.jensentransformers.com

for a variety of safe solutions. Otherwise, if you want to start a fire or
electrocute yourself or your family, use a 2-3 prong adaptor, a.k.a. a
cheater plug.

There is one exception to this. Power conditioners that provide balanced
outputs may reduce ground loop related hums, as well as provide a good
lowering of the overall noise floor.

Also, power conditioners should not be used to substitute for bad electrical
wiring. In some cases a power conditioner may make things worse,
drawing more current and stressing the existing wiring. You should NEVER
over fuse wiring.

III. HTML Links
================
Here is a variety of links to people selling things that go between your
equipment and the incoming AC line.

www.apcc.com
www.audiopower.com
www.accuphase.com
www.belkin.com
www.bestpower.com
www.brickwall.com
www.elgar.com
www.equitech.com
www.furmasound.com
www.monstercable.com
www.psaudio.com
www.surgex.com
www.ticeaudio.com
www.tripplite.com
www.vansevers.com

You should also check the links from www.stereophile.com which seem to
be pretty exhaustive, and mention many more manufacturer links to audio
related power line products than I do here. Be warned however that while
the list at Stereophile may be more comprehensive than mine, it's less
discriminating, and includes some products I feel provide particularly poor
return on investment.

IV. Products & Technology
==========================
Some products merit special attention in my book, for a variety of reasons.

Monster Cable
=============
Despite having the WORST web site in all of audio regarding technology,
with gross technical and gramatical errors, several people have sent me
e-mails defending their power strips, claiming they made improvements in
picture or video quality. Heck if I know, but you might want to, they're
not too
expensive.

Panamax
=======
Panamax gets special because they do have complete A/V surge protection
solutions their parts quality does not usually merit what they charge, like
$99 for a standard surge strip, and I've read of reliability and warranty
problems online, so you should check the archives at www.deja.com. In
my opinion APCC, Triplite and Belkin all give you more surge
protection/dollar than Panamax.

The Panamax DBS+ I have (got a deal on it) has failed to protect my two
satelite receivers from wind related static discharge , so I'm not too happy
with them these dayas.

Brickwall & Zerosurge
=====================
Working on a completely different principle of surge protection than MOV
based surge protectors are the models from Brick Wall and ZeroSurge.
They are basically single pole low pass filters ( a good thing ) for your
power lines. The claimed response is -3db at 3 kHz. This effectively limits
the maximum Volts/Second. When a surge hits, it becomes a 2nd and
3rd order low pass filter. Surgex also OEM's these devices, or licenses
the technology.

This low start point for their noise filtration puts them into both my Line
Conditioner sheet as well as my Surge Protection sheet.

Audo Power & Tice
=================
Moving closer to the ideal of a power line conditioner are the ones that use
isolation transformers. These have a much better capacity to remove audible
power line noise than mere surge strips. Audio Power & Tice have a variety
of products you should take a listen to, if you can get past Tice's voodoo
web pages (i.e. their Q&A section). Note that not all these products use
isolation transformers, so check to be sure what you're getting.

Richard Gray's Power Company
============================
Tremendous hype on their web site is parroted almost word for word by
dealers and customers. Their web site and "Grey Paper" fails to make any
truly technical statements about what the product does and IMHO they offer
poor return on investment, considering the parts that actually go into them,
and that they sell for around $700. I would encourage people to either
spend another $300 for a PS Audio unit, or spend less for something from
Furmasound or Equitech, or even getting a power conditioner (not a UPS)
from APC or Tripp Lite instead of buying a product from this company.

PS Audio
========
New are the Power Plant models from PS Audio. PS Audio has taken the
high road, and said electrical bill be damned! We'll get clean power no
matter the cost. The Power Plant models are basically power amplifiers that
re-create the 115 Volt AC signal at their output. They are perhaps the most
ambitious designs I've seen so far and again have some good ideas behind
them. Their prices seem very reasonable, considering how much goes into
one and the current offerings of power conditioners in the market, and they
certainly should be able to meet their twin goals of:

Greatly reducing apparent power line impedance

- AND -

Greatly reducing power line noise and distortion

The technology used may very well be the best at doing those two things in
combination.

Since the Power Plants are essentially class AB amplifiers they are no
better than 50% efficient, so expect it to add additional heat and
electrical
current draw to your electric circuit, which is something to pay attention
to
if you're close to being overloading it already. On the other hand, using a
linear (AB) amplifier stage removes the likelihood of more digital noise
being introduced into the 60 Hz waveform it generates.

If the PS Audio units don't have enough current capacity, consider the
products from Elgar, sweeet....way expensive! If you have money to burn,
perhaps you should consider an Elgar as a pre-conditioner, and use a PS
Audio unit for your source components only.

Other equipment manufacturers should also take note that unlike many
sites PS Audio's web site was delightfully free of bovine scatalogical
samples.

Chang Lightspeed
================
Chang Lightspeed need comments on because of their on-line advertising
which demonizes coils & transformers. They're right about small, poorly
designed coils actually increasing the power line impedance, however what
they fail to note is that by going coilless their conditioners may very well
not be
able to remove any power line noise within the audible spectrum. This noise
is the most important to audiophiles are concerned with as it has the best
chance of being propagated through the power supplies of the equipment
and finally to our ears. Perhaps this is why their on-line advertising
mentions RFI/EMI noise reduction so much, and makes no mention of audio
frequency noise reduction. Coil impedance can be overcome by using bigger
and better inductors.

Does anyone know how much these puppies weigh? I bet you they're lighter
and are less expensive to manufacture than comparative products from
manufacturers who DO use coils in their designs.

Uninterruptable Power Supplies
==============================
A UPS is a must for anyone doing serious computer work, but it's benefits
for audiophiles will vary. If you're going to try a UPS to improve the
sound / picture quality then avoid the standby kind, which have a 2-4 ms lag
before they turn on. Get one labeled "line interactive."

Because UPS's are designed for computers they usually pay little attention
to how much grunge is coming out when they generate the output waveform,
which could in turn easily make your system sound worse, not better. The
solution is to make sure the output of your UPS is a sine wave, with the
lowest possible distortion and noise. So, avoid "stepped aproximation" and
look for "pure sinewave" output.

Lastly, most UPS have a relatively loose voltage regulation. For example,
as the input voltage varies from 90 to 145 volts the UPS will output from
105 to 125 volts. It's a smaller variation than what's coming in, and it's
certainly better than any passive conditioners like Audio Power or Tice but
it's certainly not the best technology could do if money were no object.

Radio Shack
===========
Yes, RS can be an audiophiles best friend, especially when he/she is
looking for a $20 voltage meter. If you think you have a chronic voltage
problem at your home or listening room outlets go get a meter and find
out. If it's bad enough, perhaps you should start with a phone call to your
electrical company and/or electrician before getting a voltage conditioner.


V. Cheap Tweaks for the Dangerously Inclined
=============================================
One potential improvement audiophiles can make, fairly easily if they are
electronically and dangerously inclined, is to increase the power supply
filter capacitance. You can do this both by replacing the current storage
capacitors to higher values of capacitance (and equal or better voltages)
and also by adding storage capacitance across the maximum + and - voltage
rails of the device (make sure the capacitor's voltage rating is greater
than the difference between the + and - rails, of course). While we're
going there, consider also replacing the filter caps with less inductive
versions if possible such as caps from Sanyo or Panasonic (I think, sorry,
it's been a while since I was opening data books so check this out yourself)
as well as adding polypropelyne or polystyrene capacitors of equal or
greater voltage rating in parallel with any upgrades you do.

Be careful with how much capacitance you add, adding capacitance
increases the turn on (inrush) current and may over-stress the bridge
rectifier. Of course, the fix for this is to add a bigger rectifier so you
can
get more power! (Grunt grunt!) And if you fry your transforer too, well that
can be fixed as well!

This little tweak alone can greatly increase the S/N ratio of many mass
market electronic devices far more than other tweaks, such as new power
cables. If you already have a very good power supply it won't matter much
as if you didn't (i.e. it will make a bigger difference for mass market Sony
or Yamaha than Krell or Mark Levinson).

I won't go into any more detail than this, if you have to ask chances are
you shouldn't be in there anyway. Oh, yeah, and as always, if you're an
idiot and hurt yourself or your equipment don't call me, have your mama
call me so I can tell her what a dufus you are.

VI. Closing Comments
=====================
I don't mean to exclude anyone, so if I missed you or a product you feel
deserves special mention send an e-mail to nigel_tufnel@my- deja.com
and I'll add it onto this growing and improving list.

As always, thoughtful, informative discussions are encouraged,
corrections are gladly accepted, and flames may be sent to
. It's your ears, eyes and wallet you're trying to
please. Advice from anyone is a good way to start but it's your hard
earned dollar so you should always be the final judge of a products
worth.

Happy Listening,

Nigel

Lucas Tam wrote:

Howard Ferstler wrote in
:

Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as some of
the tweako freakos claim, no appliances would work properly.

Hmmm so the perceived benefits are most likely a placebo effect huh?

I was hoping to find a way to reduce the static hiss when I am using Dolby
Pro Logic IIx with 2 channel sources.

I do not have the IIx version (the processor in my main
system is a Yamaha RX-Z1), but the standard DPL II version
does not exhibit this artifact, either with the "movie" or
"music" modes.

It may be a byproduct of your particular processor and not
the DPL II technology itself. If a recording does have a lot
of decorrelated hiss in the background (older analog
releases might exhibit this) the processor would extract
that part of the signal and send it to the surround
channels. Because the noise would no longer be coming from
up front, where much of it would be psychoacoustically
masked by the source material, it might be more apparent.

Howard Ferstler

Powell wrote:

"Lucas Tam" wrote

Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as
some of the tweako freakos claim, no appliances
would work properly.

Hmmm so the perceived benefits are most likely a placebo
effect huh?

Neither Howard or Arny have any experience with line
conditioners. Many audio stores will allow you to demo
these devices for free so there is no financial risk.

I reviewed some line-conditioner products in issue 89 of The
Sensible Sound. Engineer Fred Davis helped with the project,
and both of us concluded that the devices were gimmicks. We
also reviewed some exotic (and expensive) power cords. Still
gimmicks.

Any audio component that has a power supply so cheap that it
cannot deal with the kind of minor power line glitches found
today should not be purchased in the first place.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler said:

It may be a byproduct of your particular processor and not
the DPL II technology itself. If a recording does have a lot
of decorrelated hiss in the background (older analog
releases might exhibit this) the processor would extract
that part of the signal and send it to the surround
channels. Because the noise would no longer be coming from
up front, where much of it would be psychoacoustically
masked by the source material, it might be more apparent.

Tell me again why I should move from 2 channels to multichannel when
all I'm doing is playing 2-channel material.

Thank you.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Sander deWaal wrote:

Howard Ferstler said:

It may be a byproduct of your particular processor and not
the DPL II technology itself. If a recording does have a lot
of decorrelated hiss in the background (older analog
releases might exhibit this) the processor would extract
that part of the signal and send it to the surround
channels. Because the noise would no longer be coming from
up front, where much of it would be psychoacoustically
masked by the source material, it might be more apparent.

Tell me again why I should move from 2 channels to multichannel when
all I'm doing is playing 2-channel material.

Thank you.

Because a good surround DSP device can generate new surround
and center-channel signals that make the result more
"realistic" sounding than what you can get with only two
channels.

Hell, recording engineers fool around aplenty to make those
two-channel originals sound as spacious as possible, but
they are limited by the technology of two channels. With a
good home-based processor an individual can simulate a large
hall effect that simply cannot be generated with only two
channels.

Howard Ferstler

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:41:07 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Powell wrote:

"Lucas Tam" wrote

Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as
some of the tweako freakos claim, no appliances
would work properly.

Hmmm so the perceived benefits are most likely a placebo
effect huh?

Neither Howard or Arny have any experience with line
conditioners. Many audio stores will allow you to demo
these devices for free so there is no financial risk.

I reviewed some line-conditioner products in issue 89 of The
Sensible Sound. Engineer Fred Davis helped with the project,
and both of us concluded that the devices were gimmicks. We
also reviewed some exotic (and expensive) power cords. Still
gimmicks.

Any audio component that has a power supply so cheap that it
cannot deal with the kind of minor power line glitches found
today should not be purchased in the first place.

Or normal humidity in the average air-conditioned room, for that
matter.

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

Howard Ferstler said:

It may be a byproduct of your particular processor and not
the DPL II technology itself. If a recording does have a lot
of decorrelated hiss in the background (older analog
releases might exhibit this) the processor would extract
that part of the signal and send it to the surround
channels. Because the noise would no longer be coming from
up front, where much of it would be psychoacoustically
masked by the source material, it might be more apparent.

Tell me again why I should move from 2 channels to multichannel when
all I'm doing is playing 2-channel material.

Make it sound better.

Howard Ferstler said:

It may be a byproduct of your particular processor and not
the DPL II technology itself. If a recording does have a lot
of decorrelated hiss in the background (older analog
releases might exhibit this) the processor would extract
that part of the signal and send it to the surround
channels. Because the noise would no longer be coming from
up front, where much of it would be psychoacoustically
masked by the source material, it might be more apparent.

Tell me again why I should move from 2 channels to multichannel when
all I'm doing is playing 2-channel material.

Thank you.

Because a good surround DSP device can generate new surround
and center-channel signals that make the result more
"realistic" sounding than what you can get with only two
channels.

Read the first paragraph more carefully. They're your own words,
remember?

Hell, recording engineers fool around aplenty to make those
two-channel originals sound as spacious as possible, but
they are limited by the technology of two channels.

You obviously don't realize how recording engineers are fooling around
to create multi channel recordings.
Heck, most young recording engineers don;t even know how to do a
stereo recording right, let alone 5 or 7 channels.

With a
good home-based processor an individual can simulate a large
hall effect that simply cannot be generated with only two
channels.

Why would any individual want to simulate a large hall effect which
probably wasn't there in the first place, or doesn't correspond with
the concert hall the recording was made?

One way or another, you have not succeeded in convincing me to trade
in my stereo gear for multi channel ditto.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

It may be a byproduct of your particular processor and not
the DPL II technology itself. If a recording does have a lot
of decorrelated hiss in the background (older analog
releases might exhibit this) the processor would extract
that part of the signal and send it to the surround
channels. Because the noise would no longer be coming from
up front, where much of it would be psychoacoustically
masked by the source material, it might be more apparent.

Tell me again why I should move from 2 channels to multichannel when
all I'm doing is playing 2-channel material.

Make it sound better.

Reread the first paragraph of this post, written by Howard, and tell
me why unmasked noise from behind is somehow better.

Good luck.

First tell me why unmasked noise from the front (tubes, vinyl) is somehow
better.

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

It may be a byproduct of your particular processor and not
the DPL II technology itself. If a recording does have a lot
of decorrelated hiss in the background (older analog
releases might exhibit this) the processor would extract
that part of the signal and send it to the surround
channels. Because the noise would no longer be coming from
up front, where much of it would be psychoacoustically
masked by the source material, it might be more apparent.

Tell me again why I should move from 2 channels to multichannel
when all I'm doing is playing 2-channel material.

Make it sound better.

Reread the first paragraph of this post, written by Howard, and tell
me why unmasked noise from behind is somehow better.

Good luck.

First tell me why unmasked noise from the front (tubes, vinyl) is
somehow better.

Because it's not noticeable at the listening position.

Sorry to hear about your hearing disability. Sander.

"Arny Krueger" said:

It may be a byproduct of your particular processor and not
the DPL II technology itself. If a recording does have a lot
of decorrelated hiss in the background (older analog
releases might exhibit this) the processor would extract
that part of the signal and send it to the surround
channels. Because the noise would no longer be coming from
up front, where much of it would be psychoacoustically
masked by the source material, it might be more apparent.

Tell me again why I should move from 2 channels to multichannel
when all I'm doing is playing 2-channel material.

Make it sound better.

Reread the first paragraph of this post, written by Howard, and tell
me why unmasked noise from behind is somehow better.

Good luck.

First tell me why unmasked noise from the front (tubes, vinyl) is
somehow better.

Because it's not noticeable at the listening position.

Sorry to hear about your hearing disability. Sander.

Eh?

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

It may be a byproduct of your particular processor and not
the DPL II technology itself. If a recording does have a lot
of decorrelated hiss in the background (older analog
releases might exhibit this) the processor would extract
that part of the signal and send it to the surround
channels. Because the noise would no longer be coming from
up front, where much of it would be psychoacoustically
masked by the source material, it might be more apparent.

Tell me again why I should move from 2 channels to multichannel
when all I'm doing is playing 2-channel material.

Make it sound better.

Reread the first paragraph of this post, written by Howard, and
tell me why unmasked noise from behind is somehow better.

Good luck.

First tell me why unmasked noise from the front (tubes, vinyl) is
somehow better.

Because it's not noticeable at the listening position.

Sorry to hear about your hearing disability. Sander.

Eh?

LOL!

"The Devil" wrote in message
news73bk05aqoqfpb79u5f4enqsmf0f43g2cm@rdmzrnewst xt.nz
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:25:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

First tell me why unmasked noise from the front (tubes, vinyl) is
somehow better.

Because it's not noticeable at the listening position.

Sorry to hear about your hearing disability. Sander.

My valve power amps have inaudible hiss and hum even if you put your
head right next to a 989.

Devil, next time try that with a power amp with more than 5 wpc, and oh by
the way turn it on BEFORE not after the listening test. Since you admit to
using "snake oil capacitors" it is therefore a proven fact that you also use
snake oil electrical power.

In fact, the first time I turned them on I
thought something was the matter with them--the Rotel had a faint but
audible hiss when you put your head right up against the speaker, and
that what I expect from the valves, except they were *dead* silent.

There's an approximate 16 dB difference between 200 wpc (Rotel 1080 - last
SS power amp you mentioned owning here) and 5 wpc. If both amps had the the
same dynamic range, the 5 watt amp would still be 16 dB quieter. The same
argument applies should you have a tubed amp with more power than 5 wpc.

"Arny Krueger" said:

First tell me why unmasked noise from the front (tubes, vinyl) is
somehow better.

Because it's not noticeable at the listening position.

Sorry to hear about your hearing disability. Sander.

My valve power amps have inaudible hiss and hum even if you put your
head right next to a 989.

My hybrids have 80 dB S/N at 20Veff out (1 x E288CC in SRPP, 2 x
SJ50/2 x SK135 per channel).
My tube amps have 74 dB S/N at 12 Veff/4 ohms (2 x 6SN7 floating
paraphase + driver stage, 2 x KT88 in triode per channel).
That is with the preamp in place, gain fully open (1 x ECC82 CCS, no
cathode bypass).
Phono preamp has about 62 dB S/N (2 x CV4004/ECC83, passive RIAA
inbetween), mostly pink noise, so not annoying.
In all cases without phono, noise and/or hum isn't noticeable with the
ears in the speakers.
With the phono stage in place, noise and/or hum isn't noticeable at
the listening position, and some noise is audible with my ears in the
speakers.
Hum is below 80 dB (can't measure better than that at this moment).

Devil, next time try that with a power amp with more than 5 wpc, and oh by
the way turn it on BEFORE not after the listening test. Since you admit to
using "snake oil capacitors" it is therefore a proven fact that you also use
snake oil electrical power.

A KT88 push pull in triode will deliver more than 5 watts.
The average wattage (voltage, actually) in an average room at average
listening volumes ( 75...80 dB SPL) will be mostly in the 1...5 watt
range with average sensitive speakers (88 dB/w/m).

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"Howard Ferstler" wrote

Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as
some of the tweako freakos claim, no appliances
would work properly.

Hmmm so the perceived benefits are most likely a placebo
effect huh?

Neither Howard or Arny have any experience with line
conditioners. Many audio stores will allow you to demo
these devices for free so there is no financial risk.

I reviewed some line-conditioner products...

Hehehe... "products?"


... in issue 89 of The Sensible Sound.

"Sensible Sound"... Zzzzzz.


Engineer Fred Davis helped...

"Fred Davis"... never heard of him.


both of us concluded that the devices were gimmicks.

That's rich, you don't even recall what you reviewed.


We also reviewed some exotic (and expensive) power
cords. Still gimmicks.

I suspect they weren't an advertiser product, per
usual.


Any audio component that has a power supply so
cheap that it cannot deal with the kind of minor
power line glitches found today should not be
purchased in the first place.

Really? You're advocating that consumer should open
the case and inspect the electrical design. That would
require knowledge that you don't have. Just more of
the, do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do.

Howard Ferstler is Hardscrabble®

"The Devil" wrote in message
news:ub6bk0pto9u4fe8kc9dj02jot7h16sdqt6@rdmzrnewst xt.nz
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:39:20 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Devil, next time try that with a power amp with more than 5 wpc, and
oh by the way turn it on BEFORE not after the listening test. Since
you admit to using "snake oil capacitors" it is therefore a proven
fact that you also use snake oil electrical power.

In fact, the first time I turned them on I
thought something was the matter with them--the Rotel had a faint
but audible hiss when you put your head right up against the
speaker, and that what I expect from the valves, except they were
*dead* silent.

There's an approximate 16 dB difference between 200 wpc (Rotel 1080
- last SS power amp you mentioned owning here) and 5 wpc. If both
amps had the the same dynamic range, the 5 watt amp would still be
16 dB quieter. The same argument applies should you have a tubed amp
with more power than 5 wpc.

Sorry--I don't remember mentioning the power output of the amps. Would
you care to cite the text where I said it was 5 watts per side?

Inability to provide a useful answer noted.

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

First tell me why unmasked noise from the front (tubes, vinyl) is
somehow better.

Because it's not noticeable at the listening position.

Sorry to hear about your hearing disability. Sander.

My valve power amps have inaudible hiss and hum even if you put your
head right next to a 989.

My hybrids have 80 dB S/N at 20Veff out (1 x E288CC in SRPP, 2 x
SJ50/2 x SK135 per channel).

20 volts rms is AKA 50 wpc 8 ohm load if its well below (at least 1 dB)
clipping. Of course you didn't say whether the 20 volts is peak,
peak-to-peak, RMS and how far below clipping and at what range of
frequencies. IOW, its a meaningless claim as stated.

For reference purposes lets consider
http://www.pcavtech.com/pwramp/macrot-5000VZ/

Note the -114 dB zero signal noise below 400 watts @ 0.005% THD @ 1 Khz.

That is approximately 105 dB below 50 watts. 25 dB better, AKA *lots*.

My tube amps have 74 dB S/N at 12 Veff/4 ohms (2 x 6SN7 floating
paraphase + driver stage, 2 x KT88 in triode per channel).

Even worse than the hybrid.

That is with the preamp in place, gain fully open (1 x ECC82 CCS, no
cathode bypass).

Pretty grim.

Phono preamp has about 62 dB S/N (2 x CV4004/ECC83, passive RIAA
inbetween), mostly pink noise, so not annoying.

Insufficient data for a reasonable comparison.

In all cases without phono, noise and/or hum isn't noticeable with the
ears in the speakers.

Substandard power levels and/or lack of comparable statistics noted.

With the phono stage in place, noise and/or hum isn't noticeable at
the listening position, and some noise is audible with my ears in the
speakers.

Substandard power levels and/or lack of comparable statistics noted.

Hum is below 80 dB (can't measure better than that at this moment).

Get back when you have the stuff it takes to play, thank you.

Devil, next time try that with a power amp with more than 5 wpc, and
oh by the way turn it on BEFORE not after the listening test. Since
you admit to using "snake oil capacitors" it is therefore a proven
fact that you also use snake oil electrical power.

A KT88 push pull in triode will deliver more than 5 watts.

So will a cheap IC using a scrap power supply from a laptop.

The average wattage (voltage, actually) in an average room at average
listening volumes ( 75...80 dB SPL) will be mostly in the 1...5 watt
range with average sensitive speakers (88 dB/w/m).

Good for people who have zero interest in coming even vaguely close to live
music levels for an energetic string quartet... Next time I'm recording one,
I'll measure the SPL generated by a solo violin or flute. I bet they can top
90 dB @ 3 feet.

The Devil said:

An answer to what? You didn't ask a question--you simply decided that
KT88s are only capable of producing five watts of power. You then
decided that must be the reason why my KT88 amps are free of audible
hiss.

Arny apparently thinks you're using them in single ended triode mode.
Not all that bad, by the way. If you have 100 dB/w/m speakers :-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"The Devil" wrote in message
newsrjbk0lrtqil4af47g063bopvbcqi4k7ck@rdmzrnewst xt.nz
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:25:45 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"The Devil" wrote in message
news:ub6bk0pto9u4fe8kc9dj02jot7h16sdqt6@rdmzrnewst xt.nz
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:39:20 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Devil, next time try that with a power amp with more than 5 wpc,
and oh by the way turn it on BEFORE not after the listening test.
Since you admit to using "snake oil capacitors" it is therefore a
proven fact that you also use snake oil electrical power.

In fact, the first time I turned them on I
thought something was the matter with them--the Rotel had a faint
but audible hiss when you put your head right up against the
speaker, and that what I expect from the valves, except they were
*dead* silent.

There's an approximate 16 dB difference between 200 wpc (Rotel 1080
- last SS power amp you mentioned owning here) and 5 wpc. If both
amps had the the same dynamic range, the 5 watt amp would still be
16 dB quieter. The same argument applies should you have a tubed
amp with more power than 5 wpc.

Sorry--I don't remember mentioning the power output of the amps.
Would you care to cite the text where I said it was 5 watts per
side?

Inability to provide a useful answer noted.

An answer to what? You didn't ask a question--you simply decided that
KT88s are only capable of producing five watts of power.

Wrong.

You then
decided that must be the reason why my KT88 amps are free of audible
hiss.

Wrong.

And incidentally, if that's what you believe, why write this?

What I believe is that you've been unable to provide a useful response.
Still true.

First tell me why unmasked noise from the front (tubes, vinyl) is
somehow better.

Do you believe there is noise from valve amps or don't you?

I believe that all amps make noise, some more than others. I don't expect to
ever see a tubed amp with a -112 dB noise floor, even though I have had a SS
amp like that in my hands.

Why oh why are you such a dickhead?

Devel it's because &^%!!'s like you showed me how. In your case, it was
your numerous posts about your fantasies about sodomizing my late son.

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

My hybrids have 80 dB S/N at 20Veff out (1 x E288CC in SRPP, 2 x
SJ50/2 x SK135 per channel).

20 volts rms is AKA 50 wpc 8 ohm load if its well below (at least 1
dB) clipping. Of course you didn't say whether the 20 volts is peak,
peak-to-peak, RMS and how far below clipping and at what range of
frequencies. IOW, its a meaningless claim as stated.

Veff is RMS.
It is well below clipping.
At 1 % THD, I've measured 22-something volts in 6.8 ohms in parallel
with 2 uF. No ringing.
Frequency range is from 3 Hz-160 kHz -3dB.
The latter corner frequency due to the anti-slewing filter at the
input.

That is approximately 105 dB below 50 watts. 25 dB better, AKA
*lots*.

Indeed, but anything below 80 dB S/N is of academic interest IMO.

Since that's just you're opinion, there's no possible further discussion.

Especially at the listening position, which is about 5 metres in my
case.

Even worse than the hybrid.

Of course.

Phono preamp has about 62 dB S/N (2 x CV4004/ECC83, passive RIAA
inbetween), mostly pink noise, so not annoying.

Insufficient data for a reasonable comparison.

For a toob phono preamp not unusual.

In all cases without phono, noise and/or hum isn't noticeable with
the ears in the speakers.

Substandard power levels and/or lack of comparable statistics noted.

This is with full gain, so it may be compared to 50 watts/8 ohms.

Hum is below 80 dB (can't measure better than that at this moment).

Get back when you have the stuff it takes to play, thank you.

It's enough for me, thank you.

A KT88 push pull in triode will deliver more than 5 watts.

So will a cheap IC using a scrap power supply from a laptop.

Non-sequitor noted.

Is't the discussion about toobs as opposed to SS?

The average wattage (voltage, actually) in an average room at
average listening volumes ( 75...80 dB SPL) will be mostly in the
1...5 watt range with average sensitive speakers (88 dB/w/m).

Good for people who have zero interest in coming even vaguely close
to live music levels for an energetic string quartet... Next time
I'm recording one, I'll measure the SPL generated by a solo violin
or flute. I bet they can top 90 dB @ 3 feet.

Absolutely.
And your listening room is also the size of the hall you're recording,
right?

SPLs are SPLs regardless of the size of the room.

Listeming room (roughly 7x10x3 metres).

Pretty large.

Apoparently, you need higher SPLs in your situation.

Part of the live listening experience is the SPLs.

No problem, when I'm your age, I'll probably have the same need.

False claim that preference for live music at live levels is due to the
aging process noted.

"Arny Krueger" said:

Indeed, but anything below 80 dB S/N is of academic interest IMO.

Since that's just you're opinion, there's no possible further discussion.

Opinions can be changed, it has happened in my case.
I've read articles about micro-level details that are well below -80
dB that were regarded important by some reviewers.

A KT88 push pull in triode will deliver more than 5 watts.

So will a cheap IC using a scrap power supply from a laptop.

Non-sequitor noted.

Is't the discussion about toobs as opposed to SS?

The discussion was about Devil's KT88 amps delivering noticeable noise
and distortion or not.

I'm recording one, I'll measure the SPL generated by a solo violin
or flute. I bet they can top 90 dB @ 3 feet.

Absolutely.
And your listening room is also the size of the hall you're recording,
right?

SPLs are SPLs regardless of the size of the room.

Depends on where the listening position is.
When you're listening to speakers at 1 metre (3 ft), you'll need less
electrical input than when listening at 5 metres (15 feet) for the
same SPL .
I see the mistake now. Electrical input.
Yup, sorry.

Apoparently, you need higher SPLs in your situation.

Part of the live listening experience is the SPLs.

Unfortunately, I have neighbors.
Anything over 90 dB is a no-no, at least in the evening when most
listening takes place here.

No problem, when I'm your age, I'll probably have the same need.

False claim that preference for live music at live levels is due to the
aging process noted.

I should have added the ";-)" thingy.

At rock concerts, I use ear plugs.
Also when playing with my band buddies (I'm mostly situated next to
the drummer).
So far, I didn't need them when attending classical concerts.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"Arny Krueger" wrote

I believe that all amps make noise, some more than
others. I don't expect to ever see a tubed amp with a
-112 dB noise floor, even though I have had a SS
amp like that in my hands.

Lamm ML 1.1 - 115dB S/N ratio ref at 90 watts.
ARC REF300 - 110dB S/N ratio at 280 watts

What make and model of SS are you "in my hands"
referring to?

"Powell" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote

I believe that all amps make noise, some more than
others. I don't expect to ever see a tubed amp with a
-112 dB noise floor, even though I have had a SS
amp like that in my hands.

Lamm ML 1.1 - 115dB S/N ratio ref at 90 watts.

False claim,

http://www.lammindustries.com/PRODUCTS/ml11spec.html

shows this to be an "A" weighted, not the unweighted specs I was talking
about in this thread.

ARC REF300 - 110dB S/N ratio at 280 watts

http://www.audioresearch.com/reference_300new.htm

"HUM & NOISE: Less than 0.2mV RMS -110dB below rated output (IHF weighted,
input shorted, 16 ohm output)."

Again, weighted number. "A" weighting typically *improves* this spec by
about 10 dB compared to unweighted.

Furthermore, both numbers are potentially inflated manufacturers specs and
don't represent results from an objective independent party.


What make and model of SS are you "in my hands" referring to?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


tp://www.pcavtech.com/pwramp/macrot-5000VZ/

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:25:45 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"The Devil" wrote in message
news:ub6bk0pto9u4fe8kc9dj02jot7h16sdqt6@rdmzrnews txt.nz
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:39:20 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Devil, next time try that with a power amp with more than 5 wpc, and
oh by the way turn it on BEFORE not after the listening test. Since
you admit to using "snake oil capacitors" it is therefore a proven
fact that you also use snake oil electrical power.

In fact, the first time I turned them on I
thought something was the matter with them--the Rotel had a faint
but audible hiss when you put your head right up against the
speaker, and that what I expect from the valves, except they were
*dead* silent.

There's an approximate 16 dB difference between 200 wpc (Rotel 1080
- last SS power amp you mentioned owning here) and 5 wpc. If both
amps had the the same dynamic range, the 5 watt amp would still be
16 dB quieter. The same argument applies should you have a tubed amp
with more power than 5 wpc.

Sorry--I don't remember mentioning the power output of the amps. Would
you care to cite the text where I said it was 5 watts per side?

Inability to provide a useful answer noted.

Inability to provide an actual question noted.

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:36:26 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


The average wattage (voltage, actually) in an average room at average
listening volumes ( 75...80 dB SPL) will be mostly in the 1...5 watt
range with average sensitive speakers (88 dB/w/m).

Good for people who have zero interest in coming even vaguely close to live
music levels for an energetic string quartet... Next time I'm recording one,
I'll measure the SPL generated by a solo violin or flute. I bet they can top
90 dB @ 3 feet.

I'll remember that the next time my seating position at a string
quartet concert is 3 ft. from the solo violin.

"Arny Krueger" wrote

What make and model of SS are you "in my hands" referring to?

tp://www.pcavtech.com/pwramp/macrot-5000VZ/

What is this?

dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:41:07 -0400, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Powell wrote:

"Lucas Tam" wrote

Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as
some of the tweako freakos claim, no appliances
would work properly.

Hmmm so the perceived benefits are most likely a placebo
effect huh?

Neither Howard or Arny have any experience with line
conditioners. Many audio stores will allow you to demo
these devices for free so there is no financial risk.

I reviewed some line-conditioner products in issue 89 of The
Sensible Sound. Engineer Fred Davis helped with the project,
and both of us concluded that the devices were gimmicks. We
also reviewed some exotic (and expensive) power cords. Still
gimmicks.

Any audio component that has a power supply so cheap that it
cannot deal with the kind of minor power line glitches found
today should not be purchased in the first place.

Or normal humidity in the average air-conditioned room, for that
matter.

Correct as far as it goes. However, in the fall and spring
neither the AC nor the heat may be operating. Humidity
levels can then rise, either because outside moisture is
gradually leaking into the house, or because of evaporation
from wet towels, shower stalls, and toilet bowls, and of
course from human breath. All of these can be factored into
increasing humidity levels in the fall and spring. I rarely
run my dehumidifiers in the summer and winter unless it is a
really damp and rainy day outside.

Howard Ferstler

"Powell" wrote in message

"Lucas Tam" wrote

Line
conditioning is a joke. If power was screwed up as
some of the tweako freakos claim, no appliances
would work properly.

Hmmm so the perceived benefits are most likely a placebo
effect huh?

Neither Howard or Arny have any experience with line
conditioners.

Powell's delusions of omniscience noted. In fact power conditioners are
standard electronic components. Powell is probably upset because my power
conditioner, and most of the ones I'm experienced with, are bigger than his.

Many audio stores will allow you to demo
these devices for free so there is no financial risk.

It's a lottery for them. Placebo effects work on a goodly fraction of the
population, so sooner or later they will sell one.

"Powell" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote

What make and model of SS are you "in my hands" referring to?

http://www.pcavtech.com/pwramp/macrot-5000VZ/

What is this?

A URL.

"dave weil" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:36:26 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


The average wattage (voltage, actually) in an average room at
average listening volumes ( 75...80 dB SPL) will be mostly in the
1...5 watt range with average sensitive speakers (88 dB/w/m).

Good for people who have zero interest in coming even vaguely close
to live music levels for an energetic string quartet... Next time
I'm recording one, I'll measure the SPL generated by a solo violin
or flute. I bet they can top 90 dB @ 3 feet.

I'll remember that the next time my seating position at a string
quartet concert is 3 ft. from the solo violin.

Ignorance of how loudspeaker sensitivity ratings translate in real world use
noted.

In article ,
dave weil wrote:

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:36:26 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


The average wattage (voltage, actually) in an average room at average
listening volumes ( 75...80 dB SPL) will be mostly in the 1...5 watt
range with average sensitive speakers (88 dB/w/m).

Good for people who have zero interest in coming even vaguely close to live
music levels for an energetic string quartet... Next time I'm recording one,
I'll measure the SPL generated by a solo violin or flute. I bet they can top
90 dB @ 3 feet.

I'll remember that the next time my seating position at a string
quartet concert is 3 ft. from the solo violin.

:-)

How does it image at that distance?

Flutes are louder than one might think, note.

Stephen