[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

I went years with barely a lick of computer trouble and now I have it in
spades.

I had the Windows 7 computer working pretty well, even talking to other
computers on my network. Today I tried to access it from one of the
WinXP computers which I could previously do, and I got an Access Denied
pop-up. I thought something might have happened to the sharing setting
on the folder I was trying to access, so I took a look and a bunch of
folders, the My Documents, My Music, My Pictures, etc. all had little
arrows through the icon next to the file name. There was actually a
duplicate set, one with the arrows, one without.

I did a net search for Access Denied on Win7 when trying to access from
a WinXP networked computer and found that this indicated some sort of
"junction piont" that was a result of changes to Windows to accommodate
the change from the My Documents folder to the Users folder. It didn't
say what to do about it.

It wasn't all that important that I couldn't access that computer from
the network. It would talk the other way, so if I wanted to get a file
from the XP computer to the Win7 computer, I could go to the Win7
computer, access the file on the WinXP computer, and drag it over. But
the ****er was that those folders, both the ones with the arrows and
their counterpart names without the arrows, popped up the same "Access
Denied" message when I tried to open them from the computer that they're
on.

At my wits end, I decided to take the low road and do a "clean Windows
install." So starting from scratch, I didn't see those little arrows . .
.. until I tried to access the computer from a WinXP computer. Then the
little arrows came back.

Should I re-install Windows again, put a piece of gaffer tape over the
network connection port and turn it into a nun? Be one of those people
who say "I only want it for audio and it'll never go on the Internet?"




--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

Oh . forgot to mention that of those duplicate folders that give me the
Access Denied message, one has the little arrow icon next to it (it
looks like the "shortcut" icon) and the other has a red lock icon. No
clue as to how to unlock them.

I've checked sharing permissions. Those that aren't arrowed or locked
will allow me to share them. The hosed ones tell me that I can't change
the sharing options.



--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

I had the Windows 7 computer working pretty well, even talking to
other computers on my network. Today I tried to access it from one of
the WinXP computers which I could previously do, and I got an Access
Denied pop-up. I thought something might have happened to the sharing
setting on the folder I was trying to access, so I took a look and a
bunch of folders, the My Documents, My Music, My Pictures, etc. all
had little arrows through the icon next to the file name. There was
actually a duplicate set, one with the arrows, one without.

Look in the "users" folder. The ones with the arrow are shortcuts.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
handcrafted ascii by Peter Larsen

[Frank Stearns]

Mike Rivers writes:

Oh . forgot to mention that of those duplicate folders that give me the
Access Denied message, one has the little arrow icon next to it (it
looks like the "shortcut" icon) and the other has a red lock icon. No
clue as to how to unlock them.

I've checked sharing permissions. Those that aren't arrowed or locked
will allow me to share them. The hosed ones tell me that I can't change
the sharing options.

I too had a slew of issues with Win7 networking -- so much so that I put the XP boot
drive back in and said to hell with it. I just keep the Win 7 drive around for
testing other software that comes out of my shop.

In my case, after days of head-banging on the concrete and looking all over the
place, it was apparently a "hardware" issue -- HW works fine all day long with
XP, but does not satisfy Win7. Rather strange if you think about it. It's one thing
for the OS to do a test and say, "sorry, can't use that." It devious and wicked to
install, appear to work okay, but then NOT work and not give you a clue.

While poking around with Win7 networking in general I got the feeling that once
again MS does what they do best: re-invent the wheel and make it square. Or, in the
case of Win7 networking, triangular-shaped wheels more aptly describe "the ride."

I will be anxiously watching this thread. Maybe there's really something simple we
old folks are overlooking that will make Win7 that shining city on the hill (but I
kinda doubt it).

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

[Nil]

On 04 Mar 2013, Mike Rivers wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

I had the Windows 7 computer working pretty well, even talking to
other computers on my network. Today I tried to access it from one
of the WinXP computers which I could previously do, and I got an
Access Denied pop-up. I thought something might have happened to
the sharing setting on the folder I was trying to access, so I
took a look and a bunch of folders, the My Documents, My Music, My
Pictures, etc. all had little arrows through the icon next to the
file name. There was actually a duplicate set, one with the
arrows, one without.

The directory structure was changed as of Windows Vista and later. In
XP and earlier, user profiles used to be in a folder called "\Documents
and Settings". Now they are in "\Users". What appears to be a folder
with the old name is just a placeholder for the use of old applications
that have that name hardwired in. If you try to open them, you'll get
that misleading error message, "access denied."

It wasn't all that important that I couldn't access that computer
from the network.

The trick to networking both XP and Vista/7/8 computers is to turn of
the "Homegroup" feature on the Vista/7/8 computer and use simple
networking. The Homegroup feature doesn't work with XP.

Microsoft has made it over-complicated, and it's not documented very
well. But once you have made a few adjustments, it all works well. I've
got several flavors of Windows on my network and they all talk to each
other just fine.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/5/2013 2:35 AM, Nil wrote:

The directory structure was changed as of Windows Vista and later. In
XP and earlier, user profiles used to be in a folder called "\Documents
and Settings". Now they are in "\Users". What appears to be a folder
with the old name is just a placeholder for the use of old applications
that have that name hardwired in. If you try to open them, you'll get
that misleading error message, "access denied."

I think I understood this. I guess the assumption is that when a program
looks for \documents and settings\mike\my documents\my music, Win7
actually puts the file in the \users\mike\whatever folder. But once it
gets into this mode, I get "access denied" with those folders as well.

I'm weary. I think I'm going to take Frank's approach and just keep this
computer for testing with things (for example, Pro Tools 10) that
require Win7 and move files in and out via sneaker net. Heck, the
computer only cost me twenty bucks at a hamfest.

The trick to networking both XP and Vista/7/8 computers is to turn of
the "Homegroup" feature on the Vista/7/8 computer and use simple
networking. The Homegroup feature doesn't work with XP.

Yes, I figured that out. William suggested that I look at the "Windows 7
Annoyances" book (there's a free PDF download) and there, In that book,
he says that in order to access files or folders over the Internet, you
must have a password. I had set it up with no password so I didn't have
to type it in whenever I booted (which, as you might suspect, was very
frequently). This could explain why a login popped up when trying to
access a shared folder from another computer on the network. But what
didn't make sense was that one computer popped up with the login name
filled in, and when I typed my password, it gave me access. However, on
another computer on the same network, the pop-up didn't have the name
filled in, and when I entered the same name (with the computer name) as
on the one that worked, it told me that the user name or password was
incorrect.

Microsoft has made it over-complicated, and it's not documented very
well. But once you have made a few adjustments, it all works well.

I guess I'm not there, yet. I'll admit that I've had some
inconsistencies with WinXP networking too, for years, which I've never
fixed. I can only transfer files in one direction between one pair of
computers. I can't get a file from A to B from B, but I can send the
file on A from A to B.


--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Neil Gould]

Mike Rivers wrote:
[...]
At my wits end, I decided to take the low road and do a "clean Windows
install." So starting from scratch, I didn't see those little arrows
. . . until I tried to access the computer from a WinXP computer.
Then the little arrows came back.

Should I re-install Windows again, put a piece of gaffer tape over the
network connection port and turn it into a nun? Be one of those people
who say "I only want it for audio and it'll never go on the Internet?"

You shouldn't have to do all that, but after reading the thread, I am
wondering why you are using the default user folders for you files rather
than a separate folder on the drive with file sharing set (my guess is that
you have the entire drive set for sharing, a typical practice when drives
were small and computers with multiple drives were common).

Vista and Win7 are not like XP. To support the presumption that the computer
will always by on-line (which it will be if it has access), security
measures have been introduced to address the way that many users work. Win7
removed most of Vista's "nag messages" about permission to do just about
anything with the computer, but the underlying paradigm is still to add a
layer of "protection" for those who do all their work as users with
administrative permission levels, enabling access over the internet to
protected areas.
--
best regards,

Neil

[Bill[_20_]]

In message , Mike Rivers
writes
I guess I'm not there, yet. I'll admit that I've had some inconsistencies
with WinXP networking too, for years, which I've never fixed. I can only
transfer files in one direction between one pair of computers. I can't
get a
file from A to B from B, but I can send the file on A from A to B.

I used to do a lot of work with small networks, and still have my workgroup
setup here with a bunch of laptops and desktops with different OS's - W2k,
XP, 7, 8, Ubuntu and CentOS.

With the Windows machines, they all need to be set up with the same
workgroup name, username and password, and they can be set to login
automatically (instructions for the various OS's on the web) or not, as
appropriate.

Then, it is crucial to work with real directories that match across the
machines. Here, if I have a second data partition or drive (eg D I set
up a Media directory off the root, and then have sub directories for
video, audio pics etc. The audio directory is then subdivided into my
sessions, test files, general audio and so on.
I also always have a "Download" directory off the root to hold audio apps,
utilities and all the other junk I download. Subdirectories here include
AudioApps,AudioEquip, Drivers and so on.
If the machine only has a C: drive, the same directory structure is set up
on the C drive.
These 2 main directories are set up for full sharing, and I have none of
this homegroup or other nonsense.

With this system, I've been working on a way of backing up automatically
to a Linux machine with drives with the same directory structure using
SyncToy and Task Scheduler, which makes this operation relatively basic,
simple and free. With this, I make the Media backup directory cumulative
and universal, but backup the" Download" to individual machine specific
backup directories and make them sync with the machines.

Unless you have more than one user, there is no point in getting real
things like audio mixed up in "Users" or "Documents and Settings"

[Ron C[_2_]]

On 3/5/2013 8:59 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/5/2013 2:35 AM, Nil wrote:

The directory structure was changed as of Windows Vista and later. In
XP and earlier, user profiles used to be in a folder called "\Documents
and Settings". Now they are in "\Users". What appears to be a folder
with the old name is just a placeholder for the use of old applications
that have that name hardwired in. If you try to open them, you'll get
that misleading error message, "access denied."

I think I understood this. I guess the assumption is that when a program
looks for \documents and settings\mike\my documents\my music, Win7
actually puts the file in the \users\mike\whatever folder. But once it
gets into this mode, I get "access denied" with those folders as well.

I'm weary. I think I'm going to take Frank's approach and just keep this
computer for testing with things (for example, Pro Tools 10) that
require Win7 and move files in and out via sneaker net. Heck, the
computer only cost me twenty bucks at a hamfest.

The trick to networking both XP and Vista/7/8 computers is to turn of
the "Homegroup" feature on the Vista/7/8 computer and use simple
networking. The Homegroup feature doesn't work with XP.

Yes, I figured that out. William suggested that I look at the "Windows 7
Annoyances" book (there's a free PDF download) and there, In that book,
he says that in order to access files or folders over the Internet, you
must have a password. I had set it up with no password so I didn't have
to type it in whenever I booted (which, as you might suspect, was very
frequently). This could explain why a login popped up when trying to
access a shared folder from another computer on the network. But what
didn't make sense was that one computer popped up with the login name
filled in, and when I typed my password, it gave me access. However, on
another computer on the same network, the pop-up didn't have the name
filled in, and when I entered the same name (with the computer name) as
on the one that worked, it told me that the user name or password was
incorrect.

Microsoft has made it over-complicated, and it's not documented very
well. But once you have made a few adjustments, it all works well.

I guess I'm not there, yet. I'll admit that I've had some
inconsistencies with WinXP networking too, for years, which I've never
fixed. I can only transfer files in one direction between one pair of
computers. I can't get a file from A to B from B, but I can send the
file on A from A to B.


It seems the networking security stuff has been added
(by MS) to the Windows products with a professional
administrator in mind. I've always wondered who home
users were expected to contact when that error box
"contact your network administrator" came up.

I have Win-7 on a notebook computer. I too have encountered
a world of permissions hell with that machine.

I did a google search for "windows 7 for xp users permissions"
and found tons of folks seem to have similar problems.
Win-7 has a new security model that's very different from XP.
I don't have a clue how they expect home users to migrate
from XP to Win-7 and navigate the oddities with the negligible
documentation they provide.

I did find a book "Windows 7 For Seniors For Dummies"
that I'm thinking about getting, but have a feeling it may be
too basic.

==
Later...
Ron Capik
--

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/5/2013 10:05 AM, Neil Gould wrote:

You shouldn't have to do all that, but after reading the thread, I am
wondering why you are using the default user folders for you files rather
than a separate folder on the drive with file sharing set (my guess is that
you have the entire drive set for sharing, a typical practice when drives
were small and computers with multiple drives were common).

No, but on my Windows XP computers, I have "My Documents" set for
sharing because, like just about everyone else, when I started out with
Windows, that was where I put . . . er . . . My Documents. Word files,
Excel files, audio files (My Music), etc. Word and Excel were separate
sub-folders, and initially I just had those set up for sharing. But then
when I created other folders that I wanted to share, I had to remember
to set them up for sharing, so I just said screw it, it's only me, I'll
just share the whole "My Documents" folder.

Vista and Win7 are not like XP.

Yes, I've noticed.

To support the presumption that the computer
will always by on-line (which it will be if it has access), security
measures have been introduced to address the way that many users work.

I've been saying this more and more lately: "I'M NOT MOST PEOPLE,
DAMMIT!" I was comfortable with the say that WinXP shared files, I've
done it for years and to my knowledge I've never had anything stolen or
corrupted from the outside. It was simple, there were only a few things
to understand and remember, and I could deal with it. Win7 has too many
choices and not enough "how to do it" documentation by example.

--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/5/2013 11:48 AM, Bill wrote:

Unless you have more than one user, there is no point in getting real
things like audio mixed up in "Users" or "Documents and Settings"

That's what I was hoping since there is only one user for all of the
computers in the network, but somehow things still don't play together
nicely. I was impressed, however, that when I installed Win7 and the
computer was connected to the network, it recognized other computers on
the network, and added itself. When I look at the Computer/Properties, I
see the name of the network that they're all on. That's all I expected
to have to worry about. In XP, I had to add that workgroup name myself.


--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 3/5/2013 11:55 AM, Ron C wrote:

I did a google search for "windows 7 for xp users permissions"
and found tons of folks seem to have similar problems.

Me, too, but nobody seems to have answers. I thought that's what Google
was for.

Win-7 has a new security model that's very different from XP.
I don't have a clue how they expect home users to migrate
from XP to Win-7 and navigate the oddities with the negligible
documentation they provide.

I think that they expect you to upgrade all of your computers and use
the homegroup setup, which seems to be pretty much plug-and-pray.

I did find a book "Windows 7 For Seniors For Dummies"
that I'm thinking about getting, but have a feeling it may be
too basic.

Most Dummies books are too basic for me, but maybe the Seniors part will
be helpful. It's seniors like me that occasionally add new things but
tend to hang on to the old things that still work, and continue to use
them.

I want my computers to have Firewire ports (and Firewire drivers for my
10 year old audio hardware that's still good on computers where it works).




--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Neil Gould]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/5/2013 10:05 AM, Neil Gould wrote:

To support the presumption that the computer
will always by on-line (which it will be if it has access), security
measures have been introduced to address the way that many users
work.

I've been saying this more and more lately: "I'M NOT MOST PEOPLE,
DAMMIT!" I was comfortable with the say that WinXP shared files, I've
done it for years and to my knowledge I've never had anything stolen
or corrupted from the outside. It was simple, there were only a few
things to understand and remember, and I could deal with it. Win7 has
too many choices and not enough "how to do it" documentation by
example.

I suspect that your opinion that XP was "simple" is based on its pardigm
being pretty much like every version of Windows from Win95 on. You've
learned how things work in that paradigm for over a decade and a half, so
it's comfortable. Vista changed all that, and since "most people" skipped
Vista, they also didn't get oriented to its different paradigm (that was
carried over into Win7).

So, now that MS has pitched that paradigm with the introduction of Win8, I
suspect that there will be quite a bit more drinking going on. ;-D

--
best regards,

Neil

[Ron C[_2_]]

On 3/6/2013 9:19 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/5/2013 10:05 AM, Neil Gould wrote:

To support the presumption that the computer
will always by on-line (which it will be if it has access), security
measures have been introduced to address the way that many users
work.

I've been saying this more and more lately: "I'M NOT MOST PEOPLE,
DAMMIT!" I was comfortable with the say that WinXP shared files, I've
done it for years and to my knowledge I've never had anything stolen
or corrupted from the outside. It was simple, there were only a few
things to understand and remember, and I could deal with it. Win7 has
too many choices and not enough "how to do it" documentation by
example.

I suspect that your opinion that XP was "simple" is based on its pardigm
being pretty much like every version of Windows from Win95 on. You've
learned how things work in that paradigm for over a decade and a half, so
it's comfortable. Vista changed all that, and since "most people" skipped
Vista, they also didn't get oriented to its different paradigm (that was
carried over into Win7).

So, now that MS has pitched that paradigm with the introduction of Win8, I
suspect that there will be quite a bit more drinking going on. ;-D

Well that's reassuring. Maybe it's time to buy stock in
a liquor company ...or maybe just stock up myself. ;-)

==
Later...
Ron Capik
--