[RWG]

My PC has started ripping CDs with level increases--things are getting
clipped to the point of gross distortion. Once I noticed this happening, I
went back through old archives of FLAC files, and found that this all
started somewhere between September 10 and October 21 of 2005. Fortunately,
the number of affected discs is not large--but at the point where this
started happened (in that date interval I mentioned), I had just finished
ripping about 500 discs. So I'm very lucky not to have a huge amount of work
ruined by this problem!

I have no idea what could possibly be causing audio levels to be altered
while ripping a CD! Why would anything even be processing the signal at all?
And what could have changed on my system during that time? The only thing I
can think of is RealPlayer, which I added during that interval, around
September 20. (And eBay Turbo Lister, which it's pretty hard to conceive of
having anything to do with this.) So--I completely removed RealPlayer. I
also removed the drivers for my two DVD Drives--a Plextor PX-716A burner,
and a DVD-ROM, some off brand I can't remember, but the model is DVD-16X6S.
(The DVD-ROM stopped working in June 2005--well before the clipping problem
started, but it's still connected.) And even after all that, it STILL clips
when it rips.

Normally I use Exact Audio Copy to rip CDs, but I tried another ripper and
got the same results.

Just to round out the description: This is a "white box" with a 2.6 GHz
Celeron, 512 MB RAM, 80 GB and 60 GB hard drives, nVidia GeForce video card,
MAudio Revolution 7 sound card, motherboard Ethernet, USB, running Windows
XP with Service Pack 2. This system is just about four years old.

It would really help even if someone can explain, just in general terms,
what could cause a CD ripper to mess with audio levels. I don't do anything
special in the process--just rip straight to a WAV file. In fact, I don't
think EAC, at least the version I have, can do much else.

[Geoff]

RWG wrote:
My PC has started ripping CDs with level increases--things are getting
clipped to the point of gross distortion. Once I noticed this
happening, I went back through old archives of FLAC files, and found
that this all started somewhere between September 10 and October 21
of 2005. Fortunately, the number of affected discs is not large--but
at the point where this started happened (in that date interval I
mentioned), I had just finished ripping about 500 discs. So I'm very
lucky not to have a huge amount of work ruined by this problem!

I have no idea what could possibly be causing audio levels to be
altered while ripping a CD!

There isn't. It's probably the CDs themselves.

geoff

[Mr.T]

"RWG" wrote in message
...
My PC has started ripping CDs with level increases--things are getting
clipped to the point of gross distortion. Once I noticed this happening, I
went back through old archives of FLAC files, and found that this all
started somewhere between September 10 and October 21 of 2005.
Fortunately,
the number of affected discs is not large--but at the point where this
started happened (in that date interval I mentioned), I had just finished
ripping about 500 discs. So I'm very lucky not to have a huge amount of
work
ruined by this problem!

I have no idea what could possibly be causing audio levels to be altered
while ripping a CD! Why would anything even be processing the signal at
all?
And what could have changed on my system during that time? The only thing
I
can think of is RealPlayer, which I added during that interval, around
September 20. (And eBay Turbo Lister, which it's pretty hard to conceive
of
having anything to do with this.) So--I completely removed RealPlayer. I
also removed the drivers for my two DVD Drives--a Plextor PX-716A burner,
and a DVD-ROM, some off brand I can't remember, but the model is
DVD-16X6S.
(The DVD-ROM stopped working in June 2005--well before the clipping
problem
started, but it's still connected.) And even after all that, it STILL
clips
when it rips.

Normally I use Exact Audio Copy to rip CDs, but I tried another ripper and
got the same results.

It would really help even if someone can explain, just in general terms,
what could cause a CD ripper to mess with audio levels. I don't do
anything
special in the process--just rip straight to a WAV file. In fact, I don't
think EAC, at least the version I have, can do much else.


Congratulations, you have just discovered the "mastering wars" that produce
commercial CD's with large amounts of clipping.

Solution, stop worrying about your computer equipment, and start worrying
about the CD's you purchase.

MrT.

[RWG]

Solution, stop worrying about your computer equipment, and start worrying
about the CD's you purchase.

GMAB--That makes no sense at all! First: It does nothing to explain why this
problem only started during an interval of a little over a month, in 2005.
Second, I know what you're talking about--highly compressed CDs. It
irritates me, too. But that's NOT what I'm seeing here. I'm talking about
CLIPPING, and lots of it. The difference is visually and audibly obvious.

[Mr.T]

"RWG" wrote in message
...
Solution, stop worrying about your computer equipment, and start
worrying
about the CD's you purchase.

GMAB--That makes no sense at all! First: It does nothing to explain why
this
problem only started during an interval of a little over a month, in 2005.

That's when you first noticed it, not when it started.

Second, I know what you're talking about--highly compressed CDs. It
irritates me, too. But that's NOT what I'm seeing here. I'm talking about
CLIPPING, and lots of it. The difference is visually and audibly obvious.

Yep high levels of compression AND large amounts of clipping. Both are quite
common unfortunately.

Keep looking for another reason though, I'm not in the slightest bit worried
if you don't believe me and the millions of others who discovered the same
thing years ago :-)

MrT.

[Don Pearce]

On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 05:10:07 -0400, "RWG"
wrote:

Solution, stop worrying about your computer equipment, and start worrying
about the CD's you purchase.

GMAB--That makes no sense at all! First: It does nothing to explain why this
problem only started during an interval of a little over a month, in 2005.
Second, I know what you're talking about--highly compressed CDs. It
irritates me, too. But that's NOT what I'm seeing here. I'm talking about
CLIPPING, and lots of it. The difference is visually and audibly obvious.


Post some JPGs and MP3s of what you are getting, and all of this
argument can stop.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[RWG]

GMAB--That makes no sense at all! First: It does nothing to explain why
this
problem only started during an interval of a little over a month, in
2005.

That's when you first noticed it, not when it started.

No, that IS when it started. Go back and read the original post. The files I
made all have time stamps, and it's clear that the problem started with any
rips made after mid-September 2005. When I NOTICED it was a couple of weeks
ago, when making a new rip. That's when I started checking back over the
older ones.

Second, I know what you're talking about--highly compressed CDs. It
irritates me, too. But that's NOT what I'm seeing here. I'm talking about
CLIPPING, and lots of it. The difference is visually and audibly obvious.

Yep high levels of compression AND large amounts of clipping. Both are
quite
common unfortunately.

No, they're not. I know, because I just got done checking over a whole bunch
of previously done rips--again, as explained in my original post. Real
clipping, such as I'm describing, I did not see at all, so it's rare, if not
non-existent--if it appears, it's a gross defect. I've done enough of this,
in enough different circumstances, with enough care, that I can be
completely unequivocal: You don't know what you're talking about.

Keep looking for another reason though, I'm not in the slightest bit
worried
if you don't believe me and the millions of others who discovered the same
thing years ago :-)

It's not the same thing, and how do you know about these supposed
"millions"?

[Stefano]

On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 12:50:13 +1200, "Geoff"
wrote:

RWG wrote:
My PC has started ripping CDs with level increases--things are getting
clipped to the point of gross distortion. Once I noticed this
happening, I went back through old archives of FLAC files, and found
that this all started somewhere between September 10 and October 21
of 2005. Fortunately, the number of affected discs is not large--but
at the point where this started happened (in that date interval I
mentioned), I had just finished ripping about 500 discs. So I'm very
lucky not to have a huge amount of work ruined by this problem!

I have no idea what could possibly be causing audio levels to be
altered while ripping a CD!

There isn't. It's probably the CDs themselves.


The CDs? are you sure there wasn't a plugin or something similar
altering the level?

--
Now working at http://www.newonlineshopping.net

Books, Clothing and Accessories, Computers,
Electronics, Gifts, Jewelry and Watches.

[Richard Crowley]

"RWG" wrote ...

No, that IS when it started. Go back and read the original post. The
files I made all have time stamps, and it's clear that the problem
started with any rips made after mid-September 2005. When I NOTICED it
was a couple of weeks ago, when making a new rip. That's when I
started checking back over the older ones.

So go back and rip one of your older CDs and compare the
previous file from that disc with what you are seeing now.
That will show whether someting has changed with your
computer, or whether it is your new CDs.

[Dave Platt]

In article ,
Stefano wrote:

The CDs? are you sure there wasn't a plugin or something similar
altering the level?

It could very well be the CDs, or at least some of them.

The "race for loudness" in popular music has led to a distressing
number of CDs being produced very badly, with individual tracks in the
mix being cranked up so high that the digital mix itself clips... the
data is "flat-topped" in the digital domain on the CD itself.
Clipping distortion is built right in!

If the OP has access to an oscilloscope, it would be fairly easy to
perform a "sanity check" to determine whether the problem is in his
ripping setup or on the CD itself. Take one of the CDs which showed
clipping when ripped, play it in a good CD player (*not* in a CD-ROM
drive), and monitor the two channels of analog output on the 'scope.
It should be fairly obvious if the analog signal is flat-topping.

I've seen some graphs of CDs in which the final mix didn't hit
top-of-scale, but in which it was clear that individual tracks in the
mixdown had clipped prior to the mix. Ugly.

Unfortunately, the engineers doing the mix tend to be hostage to the
desires of the producers... and the producers want "loud",
attention-getting sound quality. The net result is that a great many
popular CDs produced today have next to no dynamic range - the music
pushes full-scale at all times - and is not infrequently clipped.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

[Mr.T]

"RWG" wrote in message
...
GMAB--That makes no sense at all! First: It does nothing to explain why
this
problem only started during an interval of a little over a month, in
2005.

That's when you first noticed it, not when it started.

No, that IS when it started. Go back and read the original post. The files
I
made all have time stamps, and it's clear that the problem started with
any
rips made after mid-September 2005. When I NOTICED it was a couple of
weeks
ago, when making a new rip. That's when I started checking back over the
older ones.

So re-rip one of the exact same disks you did before, and post the
comparison rips for us to look at.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
I've seen some graphs of CDs in which the final mix didn't hit
top-of-scale, but in which it was clear that individual tracks in the
mixdown had clipped prior to the mix. Ugly.

Some???
IME most pop CD's these days are heavily clipped, then normalised to -0.2
or -0.3dB.

MrT.

[RWG]

Since my last post a few days ago, the situation has gotten stranger. Time
has not yet permitted me to fully check it out, but I have found a few
things. First, I pulled out two of the old files from rips done in
Septemeber 2005, just before the problem apparently started. I then
re-ripped two tracks from the original audio CDs, and compared them to the
existing files from 9/2005. The new rips actually are all right--they look
just like the old ones.

But then I recorded a track from one of the new CDs, from the analog output
of my DVD player, and compared it to a rip made the same way as the ones I
just described--EAC, high-sec mode, same Windows XP system. Sure enough, the
digital rip is bad. Really bad. Here are excerpts from the two tracks--

The link to the bad, distorted, rip--

http://www.sendspace.com/file/f9ro3v

The link to the undistorted rip, recorded from analog DVD player output--

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nvbj2s

So I don't know what to make of this. All kinds of bad rips whenever I've
done this since 9/2005, and obviously whatever the system is doing wrong,
it's continuing to do. Yet it never seemed to act up before 9/2005, and now
it's providing good results on at least some items done before then.

I need to do some more checking. Today's excerpts should easily prove my
point that it isn't just clipping on the CDs themselves, but just what it is
is even more mysterious now.

[Don Pearce]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 07:09:41 -0400, "RWG"
wrote:

Since my last post a few days ago, the situation has gotten stranger. Time
has not yet permitted me to fully check it out, but I have found a few
things. First, I pulled out two of the old files from rips done in
Septemeber 2005, just before the problem apparently started. I then
re-ripped two tracks from the original audio CDs, and compared them to the
existing files from 9/2005. The new rips actually are all right--they look
just like the old ones.

But then I recorded a track from one of the new CDs, from the analog output
of my DVD player, and compared it to a rip made the same way as the ones I
just described--EAC, high-sec mode, same Windows XP system. Sure enough, the
digital rip is bad. Really bad. Here are excerpts from the two tracks--

The link to the bad, distorted, rip--

http://www.sendspace.com/file/f9ro3v

The link to the undistorted rip, recorded from analog DVD player output--

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nvbj2s

So I don't know what to make of this. All kinds of bad rips whenever I've
done this since 9/2005, and obviously whatever the system is doing wrong,
it's continuing to do. Yet it never seemed to act up before 9/2005, and now
it's providing good results on at least some items done before then.

I need to do some more checking. Today's excerpts should easily prove my
point that it isn't just clipping on the CDs themselves, but just what it is
is even more mysterious now.


Those files are far too big to bother downloading. Snip out a ten
second chunk - that is all we need for this.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Don Pearce]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 07:09:41 -0400, "RWG"
wrote:

Since my last post a few days ago, the situation has gotten stranger. Time
has not yet permitted me to fully check it out, but I have found a few
things. First, I pulled out two of the old files from rips done in
Septemeber 2005, just before the problem apparently started. I then
re-ripped two tracks from the original audio CDs, and compared them to the
existing files from 9/2005. The new rips actually are all right--they look
just like the old ones.

But then I recorded a track from one of the new CDs, from the analog output
of my DVD player, and compared it to a rip made the same way as the ones I
just described--EAC, high-sec mode, same Windows XP system. Sure enough, the
digital rip is bad. Really bad. Here are excerpts from the two tracks--

The link to the bad, distorted, rip--

http://www.sendspace.com/file/f9ro3v

The link to the undistorted rip, recorded from analog DVD player output--

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nvbj2s

So I don't know what to make of this. All kinds of bad rips whenever I've
done this since 9/2005, and obviously whatever the system is doing wrong,
it's continuing to do. Yet it never seemed to act up before 9/2005, and now
it's providing good results on at least some items done before then.

I need to do some more checking. Today's excerpts should easily prove my
point that it isn't just clipping on the CDs themselves, but just what it is
is even more mysterious now.


OK, I downloaded them anyway.

First - you could at least have posted the same segment of music on
both so they were actually comparable.

Second - there is nothing wrong with the digital rip. If you zoom in
you can see it is not clipped, and is just hitting the end stops
because of very heavy compression - a mastering issue.

Third, you can't actually compare sounds when one is 3dB louder than
the other. You need to make them the same size. Drop the level of the
digital one by 3dB for better comparison.

d
--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Mr.T]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
OK, I downloaded them anyway.

First - you could at least have posted the same segment of music on
both so they were actually comparable.

OK I won't bother downloading them then.

Second - there is nothing wrong with the digital rip. If you zoom in
you can see it is not clipped, and is just hitting the end stops
because of very heavy compression - a mastering issue.

That suggests it IS clipping. IF there are flat tops, it's CLIPPING,
regardless of what the peak level is normalised to.
IF it's just heavily rounded, then it's compressed.
Amazingly many people in the audio business don't know the difference.
The majority of CD's these days are compressed *AND* clipped.

Third, you can't actually compare sounds when one is 3dB louder than
the other. You need to make them the same size. Drop the level of the
digital one by 3dB for better comparison.

Fourth, the analog output is filtered thereby reducing the clipping
severity. ie the flat tops will be rounded off a bit.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
OK, I downloaded them anyway.

First - you could at least have posted the same segment of music on
both so they were actually comparable.

OK I won't bother downloading them then.

Second - there is nothing wrong with the digital rip. If you zoom in
you can see it is not clipped, and is just hitting the end stops
because of very heavy compression - a mastering issue.

That suggests it IS clipping. IF there are flat tops, it's CLIPPING,
regardless of what the peak level is normalised to.
IF it's just heavily rounded, then it's compressed.
Amazingly many people in the audio business don't know the difference.
The majority of CD's these days are compressed *AND* clipped.

Third, you can't actually compare sounds when one is 3dB louder than
the other. You need to make them the same size. Drop the level of the
digital one by 3dB for better comparison.

Fourth, the analog output is filtered thereby reducing the clipping
severity. ie the flat tops will be rounded off a bit.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"RWG" wrote in message
...
First, I pulled out two of the old files from rips done in
Septemeber 2005, just before the problem apparently started. I then
re-ripped two tracks from the original audio CDs, and compared them to the
existing files from 9/2005. The new rips actually are all right--they look
just like the old ones.

Just as we predicted.

But then I recorded a track from one of the new CDs, from the analog
output
of my DVD player, and compared it to a rip made the same way as the ones I
just described

But the analog output is not what is on the disk, just what is coming out of
the players converter/filter/amplifier.
Can be entirely different as you have found.

I need to do some more checking.

Won't help if you don't know what you are looking for.

Today's excerpts should easily prove my
point that it isn't just clipping on the CDs themselves,

Proves no such thing. Just proves you still don't understand.

MrT.

[Don Pearce]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:50:10 +1000, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
OK, I downloaded them anyway.

First - you could at least have posted the same segment of music on
both so they were actually comparable.

OK I won't bother downloading them then.

Second - there is nothing wrong with the digital rip. If you zoom in
you can see it is not clipped, and is just hitting the end stops
because of very heavy compression - a mastering issue.

That suggests it IS clipping. IF there are flat tops, it's CLIPPING,
regardless of what the peak level is normalised to.
IF it's just heavily rounded, then it's compressed.
Amazingly many people in the audio business don't know the difference.
The majority of CD's these days are compressed *AND* clipped.


No, there aren't flat tops. Zoom in, and they just aren't there. Heavy
compression is what is there.

Apropos of digital clipping, you need three successive maximum values
for digital clipping. The reconstruction filter will interpolate two
perfectly.

Third, you can't actually compare sounds when one is 3dB louder than
the other. You need to make them the same size. Drop the level of the
digital one by 3dB for better comparison.

Fourth, the analog output is filtered thereby reducing the clipping
severity. ie the flat tops will be rounded off a bit.

The analogue isn't filtered greatly - certainly not within the audio
band, so the effect is negligible. The appearance is different, but
not greatly.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Don Pearce]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 11:59:24 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:50:10 +1000, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
OK, I downloaded them anyway.

First - you could at least have posted the same segment of music on
both so they were actually comparable.

OK I won't bother downloading them then.

Second - there is nothing wrong with the digital rip. If you zoom in
you can see it is not clipped, and is just hitting the end stops
because of very heavy compression - a mastering issue.

That suggests it IS clipping. IF there are flat tops, it's CLIPPING,
regardless of what the peak level is normalised to.
IF it's just heavily rounded, then it's compressed.
Amazingly many people in the audio business don't know the difference.
The majority of CD's these days are compressed *AND* clipped.


No, there aren't flat tops. Zoom in, and they just aren't there. Heavy
compression is what is there.

Let me correct that - there are just a couple of places that actually
are clipped. But mostly it is just very heavy compression.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Mr.T]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
No, there aren't flat tops. Zoom in, and they just aren't there. Heavy
compression is what is there.

OK, as I said, I didn't bother downloading.

Apropos of digital clipping, you need three successive maximum values
for digital clipping. The reconstruction filter will interpolate two
perfectly.

Yep, but I've seen CD's with THOUSAND's of consecutive samples at the disks
maximum level.
(Have a look at any Britney Spears CD :-)

The analogue isn't filtered greatly - certainly not within the audio
band, so the effect is negligible. The appearance is different, but
not greatly.

How "greatly" depends on the player, but pretending the analog output is a
better representation of what's really on the disk is just plain stupid.

MrT.

[Don Pearce]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:11:07 +1000, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
No, there aren't flat tops. Zoom in, and they just aren't there. Heavy
compression is what is there.

OK, as I said, I didn't bother downloading.

Apropos of digital clipping, you need three successive maximum values
for digital clipping. The reconstruction filter will interpolate two
perfectly.

Yep, but I've seen CD's with THOUSAND's of consecutive samples at the disks
maximum level.
(Have a look at any Britney Spears CD :-)


I'd rather not, thank you! You are absolutely right, of course - but
in this case, that isn't happening. By and large single digital events
are hitting maximum, with perfectly normal looking waveforms below
them. There are just far too many of them.

The analogue isn't filtered greatly - certainly not within the audio
band, so the effect is negligible. The appearance is different, but
not greatly.

How "greatly" depends on the player, but pretending the analog output is a
better representation of what's really on the disk is just plain stupid.

No, that isn't what I'm saying. When you look at a digital rip on a
DAW, you don't see the audio you will hear - you see what is there
prior to the application of a reconstruction filter. Re-digitsing an
analogue output will always show a different picture, with amplitude
ups-and downs that aren't visible on the digital original.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Karl Uppiano]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

Yep, but I've seen CD's with THOUSAND's of consecutive samples at the
disks
maximum level.
(Have a look at any Britney Spears CD :-)

Britney Spears: mixed for the unsophisticated teenager, one would expect. I
hope they don't treat classical and jazz the same way. Or even classic rock,
for that matter.

[Mr.T]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
No, there aren't flat tops. Zoom in, and they just aren't there. Heavy
compression is what is there.

OK, as I said, I didn't bother downloading.

Apropos of digital clipping, you need three successive maximum values
for digital clipping. The reconstruction filter will interpolate two
perfectly.

Yep, but I've seen CD's with THOUSAND's of consecutive samples at the
disks
maximum level.
(Have a look at any Britney Spears CD :-)

I'd rather not, thank you! You are absolutely right, of course - but
in this case, that isn't happening. By and large single digital events
are hitting maximum, with perfectly normal looking waveforms below
them. There are just far too many of them.

Fair enough. I wonder why RWG posted that as an example then when there is
far worse available.
Not to mention the fact that he still thinks it's his computer that is the
problem :-)

The analogue isn't filtered greatly - certainly not within the audio
band, so the effect is negligible. The appearance is different, but
not greatly.

How "greatly" depends on the player, but pretending the analog output is
a
better representation of what's really on the disk is just plain stupid.

No, that isn't what I'm saying. When you look at a digital rip on a
DAW, you don't see the audio you will hear - you see what is there
prior to the application of a reconstruction filter. Re-digitsing an
analogue output will always show a different picture, with amplitude
ups-and downs that aren't visible on the digital original.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were stupid, rather RWG for still
arguing that the digital rips are faulty and his analog re-recording more
accurately represents what's on the disks themselves.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message
news:8ymei.9720$jb5.7562@trndny09...
Britney Spears: mixed for the unsophisticated teenager, one would expect.
I
hope they don't treat classical and jazz the same way. Or even classic
rock,
for that matter.

Unfortunately some engineers/studio's/labels do just that regardless of
genre.
It happens far less with classical of course, but classic rock has certainly
been given the "treatment" in many cases.
That is one of the reasons that fans argue over which re-mastering attempt
is better than another with many such albums.
(there are other reasons too of course)

MrT.

[Karl Uppiano]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message
news:8ymei.9720$jb5.7562@trndny09...
Britney Spears: mixed for the unsophisticated teenager, one would expect.
I
hope they don't treat classical and jazz the same way. Or even classic
rock,
for that matter.

Unfortunately some engineers/studio's/labels do just that regardless of
genre.
It happens far less with classical of course, but classic rock has
certainly
been given the "treatment" in many cases.
That is one of the reasons that fans argue over which re-mastering attempt
is better than another with many such albums.
(there are other reasons too of course)

It looks like the world needs another Mobile Fidelity to take decent
original masters and make decent end user product.

[Geoff]

Mr.T wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
OK, I downloaded them anyway.

First - you could at least have posted the same segment of music on
both so they were actually comparable.

OK I won't bother downloading them then.

Second - there is nothing wrong with the digital rip. If you zoom in
you can see it is not clipped, and is just hitting the end stops
because of very heavy compression - a mastering issue.

That suggests it IS clipping. IF there are flat tops, it's CLIPPING,

Yeah but some people evidently don't know the difference between a WAVEFORM
ENVELOPE AND A WAVEFORM.

GEOFF OOPS capslock

[Mr.T]

"Geoff" wrote in message
...

That suggests it IS clipping. IF there are flat tops, it's CLIPPING,

Yeah but some people evidently don't know the difference between a
WAVEFORM
ENVELOPE AND A WAVEFORM.

Maybe some don't. Take a look at a small rip (11kB) from a Vanessa-Mae CD.
Even classic-fusion gets the compressed AND clipped treatment.

Newsgroup : alt.binaries.sounds
Subject : Vanessa-Mae sample

MrT.

[RWG]

I've had some time to check this out more thoroughly, and I'm greatly
relieved to find out that I was wrong and that Mr T and the rest of you are
right. To save myself some typing, I'm including the following from a post
earlier today to an EZBoard group. After that, there are a couple of
comments. I hope that between those two sections I can pretty much clear
this up--maybe you think it was pretty clear all along, but if you read with
some care you can see why I had a different viewpoint earlier. (I'm *damned*
glad to be wrong here! Had I been right, the implications, in terms of
ruining ripping activity, would've been simply horrendous for me.)

========= EXCERPT OF POST TO ANOTHER GROUP ==========

I resisted this at first, even to the point of flatly telling someone on a
usenet group that he didn't know what he was talking about. After all, I had
a set of 495 discs I had ripped between April and mid-September of 2005, and
in checking 50 tracks on ten discs, in a more or less random sample, I found
no problems. OTOH most of the ones ripped after September 2005 had serious
problems. (I have some dramatic screen captures of waveforms, if anyone is
interested.) So it made no sense to me that CD quality would have gone bad
that suddenly.

After some days, I finally made one obviously sensible check: I took the
half dozen or so CDs I had checked from the post-September-2005 set, and
ripped them on a different system. The results were essentially the same. I
also recorded all of them through the analog input to the sound card. The
waveforms didn't look so extreme for tracks done that way, but then when I
took the digital rips and lowpass-filtered them with a steep cutoff at 15
kHz, the waveforms looked almost the same as the ones from the analog,
sound-card recordings. Hmmm....

(I'm not sure why, earlier, I was thinking that the recording from the CD
played on the standalone player sounded better than the digital rip. It may
have been just a too-hasty evaluation, or maybe a gain setting on my PC that
was too high, causing clipping when the very loud digital rip was played
back.)

When I did my spot checks earlier of the "old" rips v the new ones, I was
not even thinking in terms of the CDs being bad. So I didn't look
specifically for tracks that might be over-compressed. But when I picked out
a few items from the set of 495, singling out ones that seemed like loud
recordings, and done very recently (example--Goldfrapp: Black Cherry), I did
indeed find a few.

There weren't too many. Out of 495 discs, I count only about 13 which were
released after 1999, and were from material recorded after that time. In
contrast, my newer purchases were entirely 21st Century material. And boy,
do they show it.

(It's a good thing, in fact, that my spot checks didn't happen on something
like Black Cherry earlier, when I was suspecting system problems; I'd have
probably had a panic attack!)

============================

There was some disagreement among you about whether there was clipping or
just heavy compression. I think I can actually shed some light on that. I
definitely saw some flattened tops, although as one of you commented, they
are the exception rather than the rule. The interesting thing: The ones I
saw were not nice and flat across the top. It looks as though they were
subjected one or more analog stages after the clipping. But clipping it is
IMHO.

I'll make the same offer I made to the other group: If you want some screen
shots, I can supply them. (I hope you don't mind them embedded in an MS Word
file--I didn't have an easy way at hand to make a multi-image graphics
file.) But I can tell you what my tests were on, for the new material:

Charlotte Hatherley (The Deep Blue) Behave
Editors (The Back Room) Bullets
Elastica (Elastica) Waking Up
Peter, Bjorn and John (Writer's Block) Young Folks
The Like (Are You Thinking What I'm Thinking?) What I Say and What I Mean
Howling Bells (Howling Bells) Low Happening

The Editors example is especially interesting: Not only is it more
frightfully compressed than even the others, but they actually max it out
about 3 dB below the full digital scale. I haven't a clue why.

---

Finally, Mr T, I can only say that I find a previous comment by you
puzzling, in two directions. First of all, I guess I was being stupid, or
whatever synonym you want to use, in categorically telling you that didn't
know what you were talking about, when obviously I did not know what was
going on myself, by my own admission up front. For that I do sincerely
apologize. And interestingly, you more or less let that pass, and yet you
say it's stupid to do something else:

pretending the analog output is a better representation of what's really
on the disk is just plain stupid

I think calling that stupid is a bit un-called-for. If that's stupid, then
almost any mistake is stupid. I simply had not thought things through, and
was trying to sort out something that had me very puzzled, and at that
point, very worried as well. It didn't take me long to figure out how to
lowpass-filter the digital rip and get a similar trace, as indicated in the
pasted discussion above. I think I ultimately sorted it out pretty clearly.
Try to picture how extraordinary this heavy compression thing appears to me.
I knew a lot of this kind of thing was going on, but not having worked in
this professionally, I never imagined it had gone this far. Had I not seen
it with my own eyes, I would never have believed it. (And didn't...)

Anyway, I'm tremendously relieved, in the immediate sense, that this was not
a problem in my system. OTOH I guess for the community of music listeners,
it's worse, because it turns out to be not I alone who suffer, but millions
of others robbed of their listening enjoyment.

[Geoff]

RWG wrote:
interesting thing: The ones I saw were not nice and flat across the
top. It looks as though they were subjected one or more analog stages
after the clipping. But clipping it is IMHO.


Was it flat-top waveform or a flat-topped envelope. The first is clipping,
the second isn't (necessarily).

geoff
I'll

[Mr.T]

"RWG" wrote in message
...
I definitely saw some flattened tops, although as one of you commented,
they are the exception rather than the rule.

I wish that were indeed true. I see far too many though.

I'll make the same offer I made to the other group: If you want some
screen
shots, I can supply them.

Or they can simply rip their own.

Finally, Mr T, I can only say that I find a previous comment by you
puzzling, in two directions. First of all, I guess I was being stupid, or
whatever synonym you want to use, in categorically telling you that didn't
know what you were talking about, when obviously I did not know what was
going on myself, by my own admission up front. For that I do sincerely
apologize.

It's unfortunately unusual for anyone to apologise for being adamantly wrong
here, so I accept that.

And interestingly, you more or less let that pass, and yet you
say it's stupid to do something else:

pretending the analog output is a better representation of what's really
on the disk is just plain stupid

I think calling that stupid is a bit un-called-for.

Why? It is.

If that's stupid, then almost any mistake is stupid.

Continuing to argue from a position of ignorance though, is never smart IMO.

I simply had not thought things through, and
was trying to sort out something that had me very puzzled, and at that
point, very worried as well.

Unfortunately though you wouldn't listen to what you were being told by
myself and others, and do some simple tests of your own to prove it for
yourself.
Now that you have, surely you must feel a little stupid?
However, unlike many others, you have accepted the facts and even
apologised. I doubt anybody expects any more.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Geoff" wrote in message
...
Was it flat-top waveform or a flat-topped envelope. The first is
clipping,

If you haven't seen a large number of the former by now, I suggest you just
haven't been looking!

MrT.