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[email protected] tubegarden@aol.com is offline
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Default Source signal vs reproduced signal

Hi RATs!

OK, so, somewhere between the composer's earliest fantasies and our own
wretched memories of some performance or performances we have to draw
some lines to allow fair and honest comparisons.

It does make sense to compare women to women. Tall chickens are an
acquired taste ...

Where shall we start?

Happy Ears!
Al

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[email protected] tubegarden@aol.com is offline
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Default Source signal vs reproduced signal

Hi RATs!

Let us start at the end. Some of us think the world is a known quantity
in a well ordered Universe.

Some of us are not quite so optimistic ...

The only thing the Universe can reliably supply is change. All the
little notes we write down about the rules are simply gossip. Nothing
but vanity exploding from the tiny minds of tiny people.

Some stuff seems to work, at the moment. This is not the same as having
insight into the true nature of Everything. We are just trying to
reproduce, not set God straight.

Our little theater roles and token trading games are innocent
diversions. Nothing is happening. We are all pretending to be
interesting, well, almost interesting, at times, well maybe next time
....

So, I play with my toy audioboxes. They are delightful playthings. I am
too sick to do much more than buy groceries and shower occasionally.
Listening to Music I can do lying down.

I do.

Graham is sure that if the system is well designed, it will always
sound the same until it fails. Well, that is his story, and he should
stick to it.

I think my systems, well or poorly designed, have moods and respond to
the power grid and the weather and my mood as well. I don't mind
lacking a stable place to lie and measure the Universe. I just enjoy
what bits I can, as they happen.

When I notice something happen, say lightening or a really nasty fart,
I sometimes comment , but, often just let it pass.

Graham says he thinks I notice things that can't possibly happen.
Perhaps. Perhaps he can talk but not think. Not that unusual among us
humans. I assume he is human, not a Turing machine

Having once long been in service as a hired code droid, I can testify
that management much prefers engineers that just turn the crank and
don't waste anyone's time with their stupid ideas ...

Unless the engineer thinks that management is always on the right track
....

I feel we need to touch each part of our music systems, ourselves, and
pick whatever gives us the most pleasure. I think making Graham do all
the work and living with the results, after the bean counters adjust
his fuzzy logic, is unfair to him and to us.

I like playing audio geek. I am as good at is as I can be, which is
exactly right for my systems.I like when real engineers come over and
listen and make suggestions. I get bored when they read my little diary
notes and accuse me of blasphemy.

Nothing any of us says is going to change anything. But, perhaps we can
let each other learn to be a bit less miserable.

I hope so.

Graham probably does, too. He just thinks I am out to lunch.

I am, but, that is not actually an important observation

Happy Ears!
Al

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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Source signal vs reproduced signal



" wrote:

Hi RATs!

OK, so, somewhere between the composer's earliest fantasies and our own
wretched memories of some performance or performances we have to draw
some lines to allow fair and honest comparisons.


Wretched ?

I've just come back in from a live performance. Nothing can compete with that.
Recordings are very much a 2nd best.

Graham

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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Default Source signal vs reproduced signal

Al wrote


OK, so, somewhere between the composer's earliest fantasies and our own
wretched memories of some performance or performances we have to draw
some lines to allow fair and honest comparisons.

It does make sense to compare women to women. Tall chickens are an
acquired taste ...

Where shall we start?


With the history of music, of course!

I have just finished Ian's Theory of Everything, you may be pleased to know, but
I still have to figure out how to explain it. One interesting thing about the
journey has been how many times I have been able to place a lot of brand names
in some kind of theoretical context. "Musical Fidelity" for example seems
appropriate here. "Audio Note" is pretty much the opposite, but then opposites
can so often turn out to be equal.

I am sure "reproduction" is a red herring, and the whole concept of stereo
reproduction lasted for only long enough to discover it doesn't work.

Delay is immaterial to the argument, everything is live. It's the means of
distributing a performance that counts.

I prefer to see not lines but revolutions. In between there are epochs. In
society, in music, in musical instruments. A story of increasing sophistication
and power of distribution.

There is no reason not to consider your hi-fi system as a musical instrument.
You hope it is faithful to the music. Music is a social phenomenon with a life
of its own. The divisions of labour within have seen many revolutions throughout
history, and each one has added its own estrangement.

The orchestra doesn't reproduce the thoughts of the composer, but nevertheless
hopes for fidelity. Likewise, my hi-fi system is not intended to reproduce some
past event, but I hope to achieve fidelity all the same. Loads of ppl play my
system: composers, orchestras, musicians, sound engineers...and I don't want to
let the team down.

Small engineers have always been rubbish at designing musical instruments. Real
engineers know their limitations, and admit that only history can design a
proper violin. The best we can do is try to explain what our ears discover.

The violin took centuries to get right. Hi-fi has some way to go. Mine has,
anyway.

The term I used to use for the lines, BTW, or at least the process that creates
the divisions, was "diremption", but no-one seems to know what it means any
more, sigh.

Incidentally, years ago you inspired me as the archetypal exponent of
creationism. Perhaps I was wrong, as I now suspect you see both sides, and know
both could be true, if only they both knew it.

cheers, Ian


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[email protected] tubegarden@aol.com is offline
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Default Source signal vs reproduced signal

Hi Graham,

I have attended many performances which brought, or at least
threatened, tears to my optical input units. Being there is really
Great

My memories of those emotions are still vivid. My aural memory,
allowing me to relive those moments, is awfully dim. OK, I can quite
easily recall a Respighi finale that blew my mind, but, try as I may, I
can't recreate any of Oscar Pedersen's magic, even while I listen to
his recordings. Some stuff just doesn't make it through the process.
Sigh.

Yup, audio is fun, but, without musicians, it would be pretty dull.

Well, not as dull as you seem to think it is anyway, but, still, pretty
dull

Happy Ears!
Al


Eeyore wrote:
" wrote:

Hi RATs!

OK, so, somewhere between the composer's earliest fantasies and our own
wretched memories of some performance or performances we have to draw
some lines to allow fair and honest comparisons.


Wretched ?

I've just come back in from a live performance. Nothing can compete with that.
Recordings are very much a 2nd best.

Graham




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[email protected] tubegarden@aol.com is offline
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Default Source signal vs reproduced signal

Hi Ian,

Yes, I would like to visit Vonnegut's Chronosynclastic Infindibulum one
day

BTW, on a visit to California, I discovered Kilgore is a brand of
toilet.

Life has its moments ...

Happy Ears!
Al




Ian Iveson wrote:

With the history of music, of course!

I have just finished Ian's Theory of Everything, you may be pleased to know, but
I still have to figure out how to explain it. One interesting thing about the
journey has been how many times I have been able to place a lot of brand names
in some kind of theoretical context. "Musical Fidelity" for example seems
appropriate here. "Audio Note" is pretty much the opposite, but then opposites
can so often turn out to be equal.

I am sure "reproduction" is a red herring, and the whole concept of stereo
reproduction lasted for only long enough to discover it doesn't work.

Delay is immaterial to the argument, everything is live. It's the means of
distributing a performance that counts.

I prefer to see not lines but revolutions. In between there are epochs. In
society, in music, in musical instruments. A story of increasing sophistication
and power of distribution.

There is no reason not to consider your hi-fi system as a musical instrument.
You hope it is faithful to the music. Music is a social phenomenon with a life
of its own. The divisions of labour within have seen many revolutions throughout
history, and each one has added its own estrangement.

The orchestra doesn't reproduce the thoughts of the composer, but nevertheless
hopes for fidelity. Likewise, my hi-fi system is not intended to reproduce some
past event, but I hope to achieve fidelity all the same. Loads of ppl play my
system: composers, orchestras, musicians, sound engineers...and I don't want to
let the team down.

Small engineers have always been rubbish at designing musical instruments. Real
engineers know their limitations, and admit that only history can design a
proper violin. The best we can do is try to explain what our ears discover.

The violin took centuries to get right. Hi-fi has some way to go. Mine has,
anyway.

The term I used to use for the lines, BTW, or at least the process that creates
the divisions, was "diremption", but no-one seems to know what it means any
more, sigh.

Incidentally, years ago you inspired me as the archetypal exponent of
creationism. Perhaps I was wrong, as I now suspect you see both sides, and know
both could be true, if only they both knew it.

cheers, Ian


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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Default Source signal vs reproduced signal

Al wrote

Yes, I would like to visit Vonnegut's Chronosynclastic Infindibulum one
day


I'd like a trip to the Baltic, to fish the mouth of the Vistula.

BTW, on a visit to California, I discovered Kilgore is a brand of
toilet.


Give them half a chance and those bloody Californians will crap in anything.

Life has its moments ...


Lots. I'm sure they must be connected somehow.

cheers, Ian


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Prune Prune is offline
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Default Source signal vs reproduced signal

Eeyore wrote in
:

I've just come back in from a live performance. Nothing can compete
with that. Recordings are very much a 2nd best.


I have to agree with that.

I think regarding the purely aural part of the experience, the biggest
drawback of playing back a recording is that, save for the very rare case
where you're listening with in-ear-canal phones a recording that was done
with a dummy head that matches your head-related transfer function fairly
well, the typical recording and playback geometry simply cannot recreate
the proper directionality. There are some examples with digital signal
processing to do crosstalk cancellation (minimizing the effect of having
signal from the left speaker get into the opposite ear) and so on,
incluging the availability of HRTFs for download so you can put them in a
convolver plugin for your music player, but in practice I've not seen
examples that were at the same time effective and practical.
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Source signal vs reproduced signal


wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi RATs!

OK, so, somewhere between the composer's earliest fantasies and our own
wretched memories of some performance or performances we have to draw
some lines to allow fair and honest comparisons.


How many recordings do you have from the exact live performance that you
attended?

If you are like most audiophiles, precious few.

I have 100's of them.


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