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#1
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Suggestions for a simple but high-quality DAW on a PC or outboard system
hi all,
I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements: 1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible. 2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time. 3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice. 4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176, LA-2A, etc. 5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing PC's I currently have: 1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0. 2 drives. 2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2 PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having to do with video/screen. I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I had my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe protools or something. It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro 24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox. Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some high-end analog outboard pre's. You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what good sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56). I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder like the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it (couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked). I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and locking up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be no simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at a time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in any case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers I already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded good. Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me. I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3 (4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been the heavier it is, the better it sounds. Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!! Eddie |
#2
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Suggestions for a simple but high-quality DAW on a PC or outboard system
The E-Mu 1616m uses a PCMCIA card interface, but it's not Firewire or USB -
the pre-amp unit connects to the card using a common network cable. Since not all of your computers have firewire - that might be an option for your laptop. From what I've read, USB doesn't have the bandwith to support high quality sound. Of course quality is relative. But for someone who's experience is with the 2" analog world, my guess it that you would not like the sound comming across a USB channel. I'm actually looking for a unit myself, and posted a listing before noticing this one. Mentioned the E-MU1616m 'cuz that's one of the units I'm considering. The other one is the MOTU Traveller which uses firewire. pw. "Bonzi" wrote in message oups.com... hi all, I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements: 1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible. 2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time. 3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice. 4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176, LA-2A, etc. 5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing PC's I currently have: 1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0. 2 drives. 2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2 PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having to do with video/screen. I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I had my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe protools or something. It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro 24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox. Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some high-end analog outboard pre's. You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what good sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56). I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder like the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it (couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked). I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and locking up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be no simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at a time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in any case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers I already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded good. Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me. I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3 (4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been the heavier it is, the better it sounds. Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!! Eddie |
#3
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Suggestions for a simple but high-quality DAW on a PC or outboard system
prevailingwind wrote:
The E-Mu 1616m uses a PCMCIA card interface, but it's not Firewire or USB - the pre-amp unit connects to the card using a common network cable. Since not all of your computers have firewire - that might be an option for your laptop. From what I've read, USB doesn't have the bandwith to support high quality sound. Of course quality is relative. I know it can support stereo 24/96, and most likely 24/192 as well. What it won't be able to handle is lots of channels of that, although USB2 should. If you're just looking at overdubbing lots of mono/stereo tracks, it should be quite sufficient. -- JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- Anti-walkthroughs for Deus Ex, Thief and Ultima http://www.it-he.org Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org The DMFA radio series project http://dmfa.it-he.org d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB---- uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976) |
#4
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Suggestions for a simple but high-quality DAW on a PC or outboard system
Thanks for the tip on the E-Mu stuff pw. I like the fact that it has
DSP effects on it. I have a feeling I won't get much effects if I try to rely on either CPU for effects (via directX effects?). I'm still not sure I understand all this yet so please correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm looking at dedicated boards for effects (in addition to an interface) such as the UAD-1 by Universal Audio. Pricey stuff but at least I can expand into it. If there are interfaces that have the effects on them, that's great too (assuming they sound pretty good). The nice thing about the UAD-1 is that there are versions of the Bomb Factory 1176, LA2A, etc. for them that I've heard samples of that sounded pretty good to me (still don't get near tape though). I've also seen some outboard products (around $2000) that do the tape fattening thing so that's always an option in regards to that. It's interesting to note that from what I've been reading PCMCIA is about as fast as PCI. What I don't have a handle on is whether it will make much of a difference (especially if I use hardware based effects) if I use the 850mhz over the 1Ghz laptop. I don't have a problem using PCI based stuff and using the tower (or getting into a faster tower later). The laptop has always given me grief in the dependability area. The other problem is fast harddrives. I am assuming I would need a firewire based outboard harddrive to do 10 playback tracks at a time (especially on the laptop). It's seeming like the laptop is the way to go but for some reason my gut says to avoid it. Probably because I know that if it goes dead I can't justify buying another laptop with how these things depreciate. I don't need the portability. I was looking at jumping into maybe an m-audio audiophile or an echo indigo just to get going (pcmcia). I heard that the echo gets REALLY hot. Another outboard interface (looks similiar to the E-Mu) is the Edirol Roland UA-5. I don't know that it has effects offhand. But it's USB, so there you go. I decided after your post that I would NOT be going USB. I've used the MOTU Midi stuff before with Digital Performer. It seems like it was really tied in away to the software. I will probably avoid their stuff due to this. I guess I'm looking at Nuendo or Sonar (Cakewalk) as the softare. If I had the budget I think I'd get an SPDIF PCI card and get an outboard converter from apogee, RME (perhaps with effects if that would work) or maybe just a lynx II. Then I would get one or two UAD-1's for effects. Then run Nuendo or Cakewalk. This of course would run a few thousand. But I can work towards this and be somewhat modular it seems. Eddie prevailingwind wrote: The E-Mu 1616m uses a PCMCIA card interface, but it's not Firewire or USB - the pre-amp unit connects to the card using a common network cable. Since not all of your computers have firewire - that might be an option for your laptop. From what I've read, USB doesn't have the bandwith to support high quality sound. Of course quality is relative. But for someone who's experience is with the 2" analog world, my guess it that you would not like the sound comming across a USB channel. I'm actually looking for a unit myself, and posted a listing before noticing this one. Mentioned the E-MU1616m 'cuz that's one of the units I'm considering. The other one is the MOTU Traveller which uses firewire. pw. "Bonzi" wrote in message oups.com... hi all, I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements: 1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible. 2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time. 3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice. 4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176, LA-2A, etc. 5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing PC's I currently have: 1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0. 2 drives. 2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2 PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having to do with video/screen. I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I had my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe protools or something. It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro 24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox. Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some high-end analog outboard pre's. You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what good sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56). I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder like the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it (couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked). I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and locking up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be no simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at a time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in any case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers I already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded good. Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me. I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3 (4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been the heavier it is, the better it sounds. Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!! Eddie |
#5
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Suggestions for a simple but high-quality DAW on a PC or outboard system
You might look into the Mackie Onyx 1620 or 1220 mixer with the Firewire
board option. This will be a little more than the $1000 budget , but will get you 12 to 16 good quality Preamp inputs with A to D and D to A as well as software to record (Traction 2- ok software with obtuse interface) You will need a PCMCIA Firewire card for the laptop or a $20 PCI 1394 card for the desktop. ---Courtney "Bonzi" wrote in message oups.com... hi all, I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements: 1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible. 2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time. 3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice. 4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176, LA-2A, etc. 5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing PC's I currently have: 1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0. 2 drives. 2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2 PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having to do with video/screen. I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I had my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe protools or something. It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro 24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox. Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some high-end analog outboard pre's. You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what good sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56). I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder like the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it (couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked). I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and locking up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be no simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at a time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in any case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers I already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded good. Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me. I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3 (4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been the heavier it is, the better it sounds. Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!! Eddie |
#6
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Suggestions for a simple but high-quality DAW on a PC or outboard system
Bonzi,
Yes, the E-MU does offer a lot. Speed should not be a concern. Rather, the fact that it uses PCMCIA. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but firewire is a standard across laptops and towers, where PCMCIA is a laptop thing. As a side note, a lot of the manufacturers advertise their firewire products as not requiring external power - it uses the power from the firewire cable. True, if you have a 6-pin firewire port. Most laptops have the 4-pin type, which is compatible with the 6-pin type, but does not have the 2 pins that serve the power. So the manufacturer supplies you with a 6-pin firewire cable that you can't use. So you go out and buy the 4-pin type for $35.00, and guess what? No power. Well of course not. So you also have to plug the device into an external power source. Marketing knows no shame. Bu if you can live with the fact of having to plug your device into an external power source, firewire is still the way to go. Your original post began with a desire for a "VERY simple" solution. I hear that loud and clear & agree - KISS is a wise wish. If you still want that, maybe consider using your computer for only those things that you really need it for. Maybe for running audio & MIDI recording software. This is my personal opinion, so pls take it that way & very questioningly. But I cringe when I think about adding dedicated boards in my computer's bus just for effects. That means I need to concern myself with compatibility issues with other software & debugging all kinds of problems - I've never seen a computer hardware or software component that didn't give me problems, and too often taking up so much time to fix that I'm left without an ounce of creativy left after fixing them. Then there's always a new operating system down the road, and the possibility that there won't be drivers for my component. And it's ditto with software packages that claim to fill your every need. I'm sure there are excellent boards and software that do work well, and do fill a real need. And maybe there's one for you. But as a general rule, if you want to spend more time recording than debugging software, limit the amount of hardware and software you add to your computer. My ideal setup is a powerful computer with a good audio/MIDI recording package. Interface that to a multiport audio interface, preferably using firewire. Use outboard gear for effects & other processing. I'm not saying I wouldn't use computer processing for some things in addition to recording - there are cases where it might make sense & produce good results. But personally I keep those to a minimum. Sorry I didn't get too specific, but it sounded to me you are at an early design stage, so I'm guessing theory and opinion is just as usefull - I'm sure you can find all the stats you want from the web. Ultimately all the knowledge in the world isn't worth a hill of beans. You have to hear the music, then decide. And that's another thing... Oh no, here I go... again... But music stores & manufacturers are so busy trying to sell that they don't have time to let you try stuff. When was the last time you were in a music store with all the hardware and software products not just on their shelf, but on display, where you could listen to everyhing. You can do this with guitars, keyboards, violins, accordians, & other things, but not with computer stuff - sorry, you can't try this HERE! (what, are you nuts or something?). And by the way, you open the software seal, and don't bother bringing it back. So what, I have to buy it on faith? But you say it's really what I need? Really? Really, really? Really, really, really? But recently, I think Guitar Center (Massachusetts) gets a little credit for their policy of returns on hardware devices - i think it's 2 weeks. I had to use this policy last year - I bought an interface device. I won't say which one, not because I would hesitate for one second to name the product and the manufacturer, but for the sake of not upsetting the peace of mind of someone who owns one and might read this. I liked it on the shelf, and in the specs, but after I brought it home, discovered it had the headroom of the cellar of a 17th century small hut - in other words, I turned the gain all the way up with the extra 12dB kick, and found I was still in second gear, and needed more room. So I brought it back in a hurry and got a full refund. If you're really concerned which one it was, email me & I'll tell you. Happy listening. pw. "Bonzi" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks for the tip on the E-Mu stuff pw. I like the fact that it has DSP effects on it. I have a feeling I won't get much effects if I try to rely on either CPU for effects (via directX effects?). I'm still not sure I understand all this yet so please correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm looking at dedicated boards for effects (in addition to an interface) such as the UAD-1 by Universal Audio. Pricey stuff but at least I can expand into it. If there are interfaces that have the effects on them, that's great too (assuming they sound pretty good). The nice thing about the UAD-1 is that there are versions of the Bomb Factory 1176, LA2A, etc. for them that I've heard samples of that sounded pretty good to me (still don't get near tape though). I've also seen some outboard products (around $2000) that do the tape fattening thing so that's always an option in regards to that. It's interesting to note that from what I've been reading PCMCIA is about as fast as PCI. What I don't have a handle on is whether it will make much of a difference (especially if I use hardware based effects) if I use the 850mhz over the 1Ghz laptop. I don't have a problem using PCI based stuff and using the tower (or getting into a faster tower later). The laptop has always given me grief in the dependability area. The other problem is fast harddrives. I am assuming I would need a firewire based outboard harddrive to do 10 playback tracks at a time (especially on the laptop). It's seeming like the laptop is the way to go but for some reason my gut says to avoid it. Probably because I know that if it goes dead I can't justify buying another laptop with how these things depreciate. I don't need the portability. I was looking at jumping into maybe an m-audio audiophile or an echo indigo just to get going (pcmcia). I heard that the echo gets REALLY hot. Another outboard interface (looks similiar to the E-Mu) is the Edirol Roland UA-5. I don't know that it has effects offhand. But it's USB, so there you go. I decided after your post that I would NOT be going USB. I've used the MOTU Midi stuff before with Digital Performer. It seems like it was really tied in away to the software. I will probably avoid their stuff due to this. I guess I'm looking at Nuendo or Sonar (Cakewalk) as the softare. If I had the budget I think I'd get an SPDIF PCI card and get an outboard converter from apogee, RME (perhaps with effects if that would work) or maybe just a lynx II. Then I would get one or two UAD-1's for effects. Then run Nuendo or Cakewalk. This of course would run a few thousand. But I can work towards this and be somewhat modular it seems. Eddie prevailingwind wrote: The E-Mu 1616m uses a PCMCIA card interface, but it's not Firewire or USB - the pre-amp unit connects to the card using a common network cable. Since not all of your computers have firewire - that might be an option for your laptop. From what I've read, USB doesn't have the bandwith to support high quality sound. Of course quality is relative. But for someone who's experience is with the 2" analog world, my guess it that you would not like the sound comming across a USB channel. I'm actually looking for a unit myself, and posted a listing before noticing this one. Mentioned the E-MU1616m 'cuz that's one of the units I'm considering. The other one is the MOTU Traveller which uses firewire. pw. "Bonzi" wrote in message oups.com... hi all, I'm looking for suggestions on setting up a VERY simple but good quality recording system on one of my PC's. Here are my requirements: 1. 24-bit at a high sampling rate all the way in/out, if possible. 2. Record only 1 or maybe 2 tracks at a time. 3. Playback 8-10 tracks back would be nice. 4. Nice to have - run plugins like Bomb Factory stuff UREI 1176, LA-2A, etc. 5. Nice to have - run soft synth stuff and do sequencing PC's I currently have: 1. Dell 4100 833mhz tower with 384megs RAM. Has a PCI bus and USB 1.0. 2 drives. 2. Dell laptop 1GHZ (c600 Latitude) with 256RAM. Has USB 2.0 and 2 PCMCIA slots. I've heard there are conflicts with dell laptops having to do with video/screen. I'm willing to spend up to a $1000 to get a workable DAW running. I had my tower doing 8+ tracks before with just a soundblaster card and Cakewalk/Audacity. I'm looking to get a little more serious with maybe protools or something. It seems like there are quite a few different options. A semi-pro 24-bit AD convertor via Firewire (even on the laptop using a PCMCIA Firewire interface card), USB, or via a PCI card. I've read a little about Apogee, MOTU 828, Protools Mbox (I've used it and I didn't think it sounded very good), Echo, Lynx, RME. I kind of like the idea of having the pre-amp separate from my experience with Protools MBox. Since I only do one or two channels at a time I could collect some high-end analog outboard pre's. You know the drill. I come from the 2" analog world so I know what good sounds like (damn i should have kept that 3M M-56). I would even consider scrapping DAW and getting a turnkey recorder like the Yamaha AW16G but it's only 16bit and sounds like a clone of that Roland VS880 thing. I used the Roland once and absolutely hated it (couldn't figure out how to burn a CD and the effects sucked). I've done the DAW years ago on a MAC and hated all the bugs and locking up. I'v e waited a few years and of course there still appears to be no simple solution out there to record one or two high-quality tracks at a time. But there definitely appear to be more quality and choices in any case. I figured I would try to leverage the power I have in computers I already own. I just know from the last time I looked to go 24-bit (I went full analog instead but don't have the room now) that it was like deception city. The specifications couldn't guarantee anything sounded good. Like I said, that turnkey digital gear usually sounds like crap to me. I haven't tried something simple like a PocketStudio yet but it's mp3 (4 tracks of mp3 probably sounds REALLY bad), smart card, 16-bit. I do like it's ease of use though. My experience with gear has always been the heavier it is, the better it sounds. Any suggestions? Thanks ahead of time for your replies!!! Eddie |
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