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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"Randy Yates" wrote in message
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Trevor,

You've missed my point completely. I miss the nostalgia of the era.


Fair enough, and I don't!
Nostalgia ain't what it used to be anyway :-)

Trevor.


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"Trevor" wrote in message
u...

And are still far inferiror in every technical aspect than a standard CD,
*IF* the same music is put on both. Whether it is or isn't is simply a
marketing choice.


That's right Trevor. *IF* the same were put on both then so it may be *BUT*
it's not! If you want to go on listening to far inferior recordings on a
possibly better medium then it's up to you, but it's something you will
never know as you have not listened to a recent LP.
Yes they cost a few bob extra (but we weren't talking about the cost) but
are in general far better recordings.
Oh......and as far as availablility is concerned, nearly all are available
on vinyl. In fact I first had to buy a CD player only 6 years ago as there
was an album that came out that wasn't n vinyl, a month or two later it was.
Ever since then I've been able to get them all.

D


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"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message
I do _NOT_ claim vinyl is better than CD. What I claim is _music_ put on
vinyl is _USUALLY_ made (mixed, processed, whatever you call it) to higher
quality. There are exceptions, of course, both ways but usually it is what
happens.

That creates a paradox -- better sound comes on a worse media. But that is
_sound_ I personally care for, not intrinsic media quality. And that
paradoxically makes vinyl a better media for me and a few like me despite
the fact it is actually worse physical media...


These are exactly my findings from the vast majority of albums that I have
bought over the last few years. Yes you have to pay more but they ARE
better mixes.

I do not work in a recording studio but I don't have to be in the recording
studio to fathom out which recording has been compressed more and which is
more natural. I don't go to the lengths you do to convert my LPs to CD as I
couldn't be bothered. What I do do though is buy the CD as well as they are
a third the price of the LP. So I can make a direct comparison of the two
mixes. Yes CD as a medium is superior to vinyl, we all know that, but LPs
are in general better recordings.

Obviously this is not the case for every recordings but I reckon easily as
high as 90% of the albums that I have boought over the last few years.

MadManMoon obviously has not bought an LP recently.

His loss, our gain.
Listen to the music not the media or player.

D


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"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message


Music is
_NOT_ a pure sinusoidal waves and there are other things
like attack, shape etc.


Actually, every music wave form can be entirely represented as a collection
of enveloped sine wave.

The primary mistake all those
proponents of wonderful digital sound make is assumption
that analog audio ends at 20KHz.


No such assumption has ever been made. What is known is that removing all
audio above 20 KHz has no audible effects.

It doesn't. It doesn't end even at 30KHz and higher. Its amplitude falls
quite
rapidly, yes, but there is no such an abrupt cutoff at 22KHz.


Straw man argument.

Another reason, totally unrelated, for 24/96 is that is a
standard de-facto these days.


Says who?

It is one of several standards. 16/44 is the most widely used uncompressed
format and 16/48 (video) is a little behind. Most audio that people listen
to today has been lossy-compressed.


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"David" wrote in message
...
That's right Trevor. *IF* the same were put on both then so it may be
*BUT* it's not! If you want to go on listening to far inferior recordings
on a possibly better medium then it's up to you, but it's something you
will never know as you have not listened to a recent LP.


No need, since I regualrly record, mix and/or master CD's myself. I could
easily have it cut to vinyl IF there was a market, and the differences would
be those required to suit the limitations of vinyl recording/playback.
Something I prefer NOT to bother with any more.


Yes they cost a few bob extra (but we weren't talking about the cost) but
are in general far better recordings.
Oh......and as far as availablility is concerned, nearly all are available
on vinyl. In fact I first had to buy a CD player only 6 years ago as
there was an album that came out that wasn't n vinyl, a month or two later
it was. Ever since then I've been able to get them all.


All of what YOU want maybe. But still about 1% or less of what's released on
CD every year.

Trevor.




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On 03/01/2011 10:41 PM, Trevor wrote:
"Randy wrote in message
news
Trevor,

You've missed my point completely. I miss the nostalgia of the era.


Fair enough, and I don't!
Nostalgia ain't what it used to be anyway :-)


That's quite a jackass attitude you've got there.
--
Randy Yates Digital Signal Labs
919-577-9882 http://www.digitalsignallabs.com


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On 3/2/2011 5:09 PM Dick Pierce spake thus:

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message


Music is _NOT_ a pure sinusoidal waves and there are other things
like attack, shape etc.


Actually, every music wave form can be entirely represented as a collection
of enveloped sine wave.


Not even "enveloped" sine waves: simply sine waves.


Yes. Just what is an "enveloped" sine wave anyway, pray tell?


--
The phrase "jump the shark" itself jumped the shark about a decade ago.

- Usenet
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On 03/02/2011 09:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/2/2011 5:09 PM Dick Pierce spake thus:

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message

Music is _NOT_ a pure sinusoidal waves and there are other things
like attack, shape etc.

Actually, every music wave form can be entirely represented as a collection of enveloped sine wave.


Not even "enveloped" sine waves: simply sine waves.


Yes. Just what is an "enveloped" sine wave anyway, pray tell?


Amplitude-modulated.
--
Randy Yates Digital Signal Labs
919-577-9882 http://www.digitalsignallabs.com


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Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

That is exactly what some of us, including myself, are doing. As a
matter of fact it is not just copying to a CD -- they are digitized
in 24/96 and that digitized material is saved and listened to if
conditions permit. For everyday use (such as plaing it in one's car
or whatever) that material is downsampled to 16/44 and put on CDs.

And I betcha they sound light ages better than commercial CDs with
the same material.


More likely they sound more to your expectaions, which may not necessary
'better' in terms of true fidelity to the master tape.

geoff


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Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

Thanks for a suggestion but now, I won't do it. Music is _NOT_ a pure
sinusoidal waves and there are other things like attack, shape etc.
The primary mistake all those proponents of wonderful digital sound
make is assumption that analog audio ends at 20KHz. It doesn't. It
doesn't end even at 30KHz and higher. Its amplitude falls quite
rapidly, yes, but there is no such an abrupt cutoff at 22KHz.


However hearing perception does, but generally much lower than that unless
you are a child. And I betcha most of those beloved LPs have sweet FA above
15KHz coming off them.

If you want to understand about waveforms and 'digital, google Nyquist
theorum, which explains pretty well how lacking your basic understanding of
the subject is.

geoff




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Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

I do _NOT_ claim vinyl is better than CD. What I claim is _music_ put
on vinyl is _USUALLY_ made (mixed, processed, whatever you call it)
to higher quality.


You mean compressed more so that you can hear the quieter stuff above the
surface and preamp noise ?

geoff


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"Trevor" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
That's right Trevor. *IF* the same were put on both then so it may be
*BUT* it's not! If you want to go on listening to far inferior
recordings on a possibly better medium then it's up to you, but it's
something you will never know as you have not listened to a recent LP.


No need, since I regualrly record, mix and/or master CD's myself. I could
easily have it cut to vinyl IF there was a market, and the differences
would be those required to suit the limitations of vinyl
recording/playback. Something I prefer NOT to bother with any more.


If you record mix and master the CDs yourself there would be absolutely no
point whatsoever in having the recording cut to vinyl, as you have
personally done the bit that so many record companies deliberately feck up.


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"Randy Yates" wrote in message
m
On 03/02/2011 09:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/2/2011 5:09 PM Dick Pierce spake thus:

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message

Music is _NOT_ a pure sinusoidal waves and there are
other things like attack, shape etc.

Actually, every music wave form can be entirely
represented as a collection of enveloped sine wave.

Not even "enveloped" sine waves: simply sine waves.


Yes. Just what is an "enveloped" sine wave anyway, pray
tell?


Amplitude-modulated.


Right.

I would like to hear how one simulates say piano notes by means of just
linear mixing of continuous sine waves.


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"Randy Yates" wrote in message
news
You've missed my point completely. I miss the nostalgia
of the era.


I suspect that for most LP lovers, this is the unique attraction.


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On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 08:39:52 -0500, Dick Pierce
wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Randy Yates" wrote in message
m

On 03/02/2011 09:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 3/2/2011 5:09 PM Dick Pierce spake thus:


Arny Krueger wrote:


"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message


Music is _NOT_ a pure sinusoidal waves and there are
other things like attack, shape etc.

Actually, every music wave form can be entirely
represented as a collection of enveloped sine wave.

Not even "enveloped" sine waves: simply sine waves.



Yes. Just what is an "enveloped" sine wave anyway, pray
tell?



Amplitude-modulated.



Right.

I would like to hear how one simulates say piano notes by means of just
linear mixing of continuous sine waves.


Are you saying that it's not possible? Here, take
my shovel, dig up Mr. Fourier, tell him it's not
possible.

Take ANY amplitude-modulated waveform. Take it's
Fourier transform. The result is some collection of
continuous sine waves, n'est ce pas?

Let's look at a simple case: a 1 kHz wave modulated by
a 100 Hz envelope. That's three sine components, whose
relative amplitudes are dependent upon the amount of
modulation: one sitting at 900 Hz, one at 1000 Hz, and
one at 1100 Hz. Y'know, sidebands, and all that?


---
But that's true only for _modulation_, which is nonlinear mixing due
to time-variable gain.

In the case where a 100Hz and a 1000Hz signal were linearly mixed,
(algebraically summed) the resulting spectrum would contain only a
single line at 100Hz and another at 1000Hz.

---
JF


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"Dick Pierce" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Randy Yates" wrote in message
m

On 03/02/2011 09:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 3/2/2011 5:09 PM Dick Pierce spake thus:


Arny Krueger wrote:


"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message


Music is _NOT_ a pure sinusoidal waves and there are
other things like attack, shape etc.

Actually, every music wave form can be entirely
represented as a collection of enveloped sine wave.

Not even "enveloped" sine waves: simply sine waves.



Yes. Just what is an "enveloped" sine wave anyway, pray
tell?



Amplitude-modulated.



Right.

I would like to hear how one simulates say piano notes
by means of just linear mixing of continuous sine waves.


Are you saying that it's not possible? Here, take
my shovel, dig up Mr. Fourier, tell him it's not
possible.


Take ANY amplitude-modulated waveform. Take it's
Fourier transform. The result is some collection of
continuous sine waves, n'est ce pas?


Right - the needed memory jog - an amplitude modulated carrier has a certain
spectrum. It picks up sidebands that are related to the modulating
frequency.

Let's look at a simple case: a 1 kHz wave modulated by
a 100 Hz envelope. That's three sine components, whose
relative amplitudes are dependent upon the amount of
modulation: one sitting at 900 Hz, one at 1000 Hz, and
one at 1100 Hz. Y'know, sidebands, and all that?


Yup.

Take a more complex waveform with a more complex envelope,
and it's merely an extension of the same thing.

Yup.

I asked a question, you answered it. I'm embarassed to say that I once knew
the answer but the fog of other battles, and all that.

Thank you.



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"John Fields" wrote in
message

But that's true only for _modulation_, which is nonlinear
mixing due to time-variable gain.



You can simulate modulation by adding other signals (the sidebands) by means
of linear mixing.

The over all process is nonlinear because new frequencies are added. But,
the process that Dick described fit within my question about linear mixing.
I didn't say that new frequencies couldn't be added.

You're both right as long as you don't say that Dick is wrong, per my
question. ;-)


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On 03/03/2011 13:25, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Randy wrote in message
m
On 03/02/2011 09:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/2/2011 5:09 PM Dick Pierce spake thus:

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Sergey wrote in message

Music is _NOT_ a pure sinusoidal waves and there are
other things like attack, shape etc.

Actually, every music wave form can be entirely
represented as a collection of enveloped sine wave.

Not even "enveloped" sine waves: simply sine waves.


Yes. Just what is an "enveloped" sine wave anyway, pray
tell?


Amplitude-modulated.


Right.

I would like to hear how one simulates say piano notes by means of just
linear mixing of continuous sine waves.


A quick handwaving version of how you do it is to choose a suitable
mixture of sinewaves centred around the fundamental and its harmonics
with the phases tweaked to have a sharp attack and a slow decay around
the peak envelope position and to cancel elsewhere. It would not be an
efficient representation of a piece of music but it could be done.

A more detailed explanation is that a multiplication of the signal in
the time domain is a convolution in the frequency domain (and vice
versa). That is amplitude modulation of a simple continuous carrier wave
with or without harmonics can be achieved in the frequency domain by
convolving with the Fourier transform of the envelope shape you want to
impose. Shannons sampling theorem for a band limited function and the
fact that the Fourier transform preserves all information allows a
formal proof.

ISTR in the late 70's there was an infamous near unplayable direct
mastered vinyl record of the 1812 which featured on the cover an
electron micrograph of the offending groove. It destroyed expensive
styluses as well as playing through very few times before failing.

Whilst you can produce an unplayable CD with laser readback it never
damages the playback device though it might damage the speakers.

Regards,
Martin Brown
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On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 08:39:52 -0500, Dick Pierce
wrote:


I would like to hear how one simulates say piano notes by means of just
linear mixing of continuous sine waves.


Are you saying that it's not possible? Here, take
my shovel, dig up Mr. Fourier, tell him it's not
possible.

Take ANY amplitude-modulated waveform. Take it's
Fourier transform. The result is some collection of
continuous sine waves, n'est ce pas?


I have always had the impression that you needed something similar of
a continuous waveform to get the FFT, trying to take the FFT of a
single pulse does not make a lot sense.

While the decaying part of the piano waveform could be simulated with
a series of sine waves multiplied with a curve simulating the
inversely exponentially dying out string oscillations, the attack part
of the waveform is far more complicated.

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On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 17:29:10 +0200, wrote:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 08:39:52 -0500, Dick Pierce
wrote:


I would like to hear how one simulates say piano notes by means of just
linear mixing of continuous sine waves.


Are you saying that it's not possible? Here, take
my shovel, dig up Mr. Fourier, tell him it's not
possible.

Take ANY amplitude-modulated waveform. Take it's
Fourier transform. The result is some collection of
continuous sine waves, n'est ce pas?


I have always had the impression that you needed something similar of
a continuous waveform to get the FFT, trying to take the FFT of a
single pulse does not make a lot sense.

While the decaying part of the piano waveform could be simulated with
a series of sine waves multiplied with a curve simulating the
inversely exponentially dying out string oscillations, the attack part
of the waveform is far more complicated.


You are both right and wrong. You are wrong in that the FFT couldn't
care less what shape the waveform is. Provided its frequency is
contained within half the sampling rate, it will reproduce it.

You are right - and this is where most people forget what an FFT
really does - in that there is an implicit assumption within the FFT
that the entire sample is repeated ad infinitum. In fact when you
perform an FFT, you effectively join the ends together to make a loop.

d


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On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 09:11:26 -0500, Dick Pierce
wrote:

John Fields wrote:
On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 08:39:52 -0500, Dick Pierce
wrote:


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Randy Yates" wrote in message
news:BfWdndRN5L09kvLQnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@supernew s.com


On 03/02/2011 09:37 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:


On 3/2/2011 5:09 PM Dick Pierce spake thus:



Arny Krueger wrote:



"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message



Music is _NOT_ a pure sinusoidal waves and there are
other things like attack, shape etc.

Actually, every music wave form can be entirely
represented as a collection of enveloped sine wave.

Not even "enveloped" sine waves: simply sine waves.


Yes. Just what is an "enveloped" sine wave anyway, pray
tell?


Amplitude-modulated.


Right.

I would like to hear how one simulates say piano notes by means of just
linear mixing of continuous sine waves.

Are you saying that it's not possible? Here, take
my shovel, dig up Mr. Fourier, tell him it's not
possible.

Take ANY amplitude-modulated waveform. Take it's
Fourier transform. The result is some collection of
continuous sine waves, n'est ce pas?

Let's look at a simple case: a 1 kHz wave modulated by
a 100 Hz envelope. That's three sine components, whose
relative amplitudes are dependent upon the amount of
modulation: one sitting at 900 Hz, one at 1000 Hz, and
one at 1100 Hz. Y'know, sidebands, and all that?



---
But that's true only for _modulation_, which is nonlinear mixing due
to time-variable gain.


That's right, that's what he was asking about.


---
He said:

"I would like to hear how one simulates say piano notes by means of
just linear mixing of continuous sine waves."

Which isn't modulation, so heterodyning won't occur and no sidebands
will be generated.

In truth, to do what he asked would require all of the spectral
components of the note, with their amplitude variations, to be mixed
linearly, (summed algebraically with respect to time) which isn't
modulation.

---
JF
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On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:25:35 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"John Fields" wrote in
message

But that's true only for _modulation_, which is nonlinear
mixing due to time-variable gain.



You can simulate modulation by adding other signals (the sidebands) by means
of linear mixing.


---
Yes, of course, and that's the process you'd use to generate your
simulated piano note, but it's not modulation and its attendant
heterodyning.
---

The over all process is nonlinear because new frequencies are added.


---
If the new frequencies are added by linear mixing, then there can be
no nonlinearity in the system, otherwise unwanted sidebands will be
generated.
---

But,
the process that Dick described fit within my question about linear mixing.
I didn't say that new frequencies couldn't be added.


---
Yes, but with linear mixing, which you were asking about, any new
frequencies can be added arbitrarily, without creating sidebands,
while with modulation, which Dick was talking about, sidebands will be
created over which you'll have little, if any, control.
---

You're both right as long as you don't say that Dick is wrong, per my
question. ;-)


---
Well, you asked about linear mixing and he replied by stating that
that would create sidebands, which it will not. :-)

---
JF
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"Dick Pierce" wrote in message

John Fields wrote:
You're both right as long as you don't say that Dick is
wrong, per my question. ;-)


Well, you asked about linear mixing and he replied by
stating that that would create sidebands, which it will
not. :-)


NO I didn't. Someone asked about how continuous sine waves
can have an envelope, someone else described it as
"amplitude modulate" and I simply described one case as
an example where an amplitude-modulated waveform can be
decomposed into component, continuous sine waves. I never
attempted or intended to describe how the process of
modulation takes place, only how a collection of
component sine waves can lead to that result.


The important point is that one can create an amplitude modulated
(enveloped) signal by simple linear mixing of the right signals, or one can
use that well-known nonlinear process called Amplitude Modulation. One also
can also create a frequency modulated signal by simple linear mixing of a
different and often far more complex collection of signals.


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On 2011-03-03 13:13:09 -0500, Kirk McElhearn kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com said:

On 2011-03-03 18:33:27 +0100, "Arny Krueger" said:

The important point is that one can create an amplitude modulated
(enveloped) signal by simple linear mixing of the right signals, or one can
use that well-known nonlinear process called Amplitude Modulation. One also
can also create a frequency modulated signal by simple linear mixing of a
different and often far more complex collection of signals.


But does it work in a barber shop?

Kirk


snort! Spewed tea all over my monitor.

Sherry in Vermont

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On Feb 26, 9:04*pm, MalcolmO wrote:

Most
commercial recordings today are released in a form which is far less
than "16-bit" in quality - they have been deliberately compressed
during the mastering process to sound "louder". *They've been quashed,
pummeled, clipped, gain-ridden, smelched, and squeezed down into a
tiny dynamic range.


And they wonder why we don't buy records!


Wait. We don't?



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Kirk McElhearn wrote:
On 2011-03-03 20:11:45 +0100, Sherry in Vermont
said:
The important point is that one can create an amplitude modulated
(enveloped) signal by simple linear mixing of the right signals,
or one can use that well-known nonlinear process called Amplitude
Modulation. One also can also create a frequency modulated signal
by simple linear mixing of a different and often far more complex
collection of signals.

But does it work in a barber shop?

Kirk


snort! Spewed tea all over my monitor.


At least it was tea, not beer...



Or spew ;-0

geoff


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On 2011-03-03 14:29:19 -0500, Kirk McElhearn kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com said:

On 2011-03-03 20:11:45 +0100, Sherry in Vermont said:

The important point is that one can create an amplitude modulated
(enveloped) signal by simple linear mixing of the right signals, or one can
use that well-known nonlinear process called Amplitude Modulation. One also
can also create a frequency modulated signal by simple linear mixing of a
different and often far more complex collection of signals.

But does it work in a barber shop?

Kirk


snort! Spewed tea all over my monitor.


At least it was tea, not beer...

Kirk


Nah - always driving the kids hither and yon... no beer for me unless
we're staying home (only on Mondays thru the winter). I am a
lightweight - one beer and I am tipy. I prefer bowls to beer, I can
handle that better anyway.

Sherry in Vermont

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On 2011-03-03 14:43:30 -0500, "geoff" said:

Kirk McElhearn wrote:
On 2011-03-03 20:11:45 +0100, Sherry in Vermont
said:
The important point is that one can create an amplitude modulated
(enveloped) signal by simple linear mixing of the right signals,
or one can use that well-known nonlinear process called Amplitude
Modulation. One also can also create a frequency modulated signal
by simple linear mixing of a different and often far more complex
collection of signals.

But does it work in a barber shop?

Kirk

snort! Spewed tea all over my monitor.


At least it was tea, not beer...



Or spew ;-0

geoff


Ewwwww!

Sherry in Vermont

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"Randy Yates" wrote in message
...
You've missed my point completely. I miss the nostalgia of the era.


Fair enough, and I don't!
Nostalgia ain't what it used to be anyway :-)


That's quite a jackass attitude you've got there.


Better than being a humour impaired self righteous jackass I guess.

Trevor.




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"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message
...
Good analog gear will give you almost
undistorted 10KHz square wave. What is the highest sine wave frequency
that
should be taken into the equation to make that 10KHz square wave to even
remotedly resemble the original one?


Right, but ever tried getting a 10kHz square wave from a vinyl record? Does
it REMOTELY resemble a square wave?
Obviously vinyl records are NOT "good analog gear" which is what most people
discovered decades ago.

Trevor.





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"geoff" wrote in message
news
Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

That is exactly what some of us, including myself, are doing. As a
matter of fact it is not just copying to a CD -- they are digitized
in 24/96 and that digitized material is saved and listened to if
conditions permit. For everyday use (such as plaing it in one's car
or whatever) that material is downsampled to 16/44 and put on CDs.

And I betcha they sound light ages better than commercial CDs with
the same material.


More likely they sound more to your expectaions, which may not necessary
'better' in terms of true fidelity to the master tape.



Unfortunately many people cannot conceive of the idea that what "sounds
better" to them, is NOT actually a more accurate reproduction of the
original. Sad really.

Trevor.



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"David" wrote in message
...
If you record mix and master the CDs yourself there would be absolutely no
point whatsoever in having the recording cut to vinyl, as you have
personally done the bit that so many record companies deliberately feck
up.


No argument from me, and like many others I have lamented at the quality of
some of the biggest selling CD's on the market. But obviously those buying
Brittney Spears, Lady Ga Ga, Katy Perry etc. are happy, or not complaining
enough, and I doubt they are looking for them on vinyl! However there are
also many other recordings on CD that are actually OK, far more than is
available on new vinyl IME.

Trevor.


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"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message
...
Good analog gear will give you almost
undistorted 10KHz square wave. What is the highest sine wave frequency
that
should be taken into the equation to make that 10KHz square wave to even
remotedly resemble the original one?


Right, but ever tried getting a 10kHz square wave from a vinyl record?
Does
it REMOTELY resemble a square wave?
Obviously vinyl records are NOT "good analog gear" which is what most
people
discovered decades ago.


Yep, there is no clean 10KHz square wave from vinyl, I agree. But it is
better than that abruptly cut at 22KHz.



Actually both are very close to sine waves, except one has far more noise
and distortion.


24/96 is way better, it covers all you can get from analog audio
perfectly,
no complaints.


Right, but recording vinyl to 24/96 is only kidding yourself.

Trevor.


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"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message
...
More likely they sound more to your expectaions, which may not necessary
'better' in terms of true fidelity to the master tape.


Unfortunately many people cannot conceive of the idea that what "sounds
better" to them, is NOT actually a more accurate reproduction of the
original. Sad really.


Once again -- people listen to the _music_ , not the accurate reproduction
or whatever is good on paper. If one likes unhealthy charred barbeque
steak
there is no reason to persuade him steam boiled vegetables and turkey meat
is healthier


Nobody has a problem with YOU listening to what YOU prefer, only the blanket
claim that vinyl is the best source of music. Just the same as I don't care
what others eat, as long as it's not illegal or unsustainable.

Trevor.


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On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 12:33:27 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

The important point is that one can create an amplitude modulated
(enveloped) signal by simple linear mixing of the right signals,


Nope. Not by mixing. You have to MODULATE the AMPLITUDE of a
"carrier" with the intended "signal"..

Simply seeing something that appears to be "enveloped" does not mean
that it is amplitude modulated. Linear summation does not get you there.


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In article 2011030314114543658-sherry13@togethernet,
Sherry in Vermont wrote:

On 2011-03-03 13:13:09 -0500, Kirk McElhearn kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com said:

On 2011-03-03 18:33:27 +0100, "Arny Krueger" said:

The important point is that one can create an amplitude modulated
(enveloped) signal by simple linear mixing of the right signals, or one can
use that well-known nonlinear process called Amplitude Modulation. One also
can also create a frequency modulated signal by simple linear mixing of a
different and often far more complex collection of signals.


But does it work in a barber shop?

Kirk


snort! Spewed tea all over my monitor.

Sherry in Vermont


This is what happens when you let the deadheads in the with the techies!

:-)
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On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 20:29:19 +0100, Kirk McElhearn kirkmc (at) mac
(dot) com wrote:

On 2011-03-03 20:11:45 +0100, Sherry in Vermont said:

The important point is that one can create an amplitude modulated
(enveloped) signal by simple linear mixing of the right signals, or one can
use that well-known nonlinear process called Amplitude Modulation. One also
can also create a frequency modulated signal by simple linear mixing of a
different and often far more complex collection of signals.

But does it work in a barber shop?

Kirk


snort! Spewed tea all over my monitor.


At least it was tea, not beer...

Kirk


Yeah, it's a sin to waste beer.

John

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SoothSayer wrote:
[...] You have to MODULATE the AMPLITUDE of a
"carrier" with the intended "signal"..

Simply seeing something that appears to be "enveloped" does not mean
that it is amplitude modulated. Linear summation does not get you there.


Time for a trigonometry refresher course:

Modulation is multiplication of two signals, e.g., for sine waves
cos A * cos B.

A basic trigonometric identity tells us this is identical to:
0.5 cos(A+B) - 0.5 cos(A-B), which is a simple linear sum of
sine waves.

In conclusion, your assertion that linear summation can't
get you a modulated waveform is wrong.

Jeroen Belleman
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On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 08:55:23 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
wrote:

SoothSayer wrote:
[...] You have to MODULATE the AMPLITUDE of a
"carrier" with the intended "signal"..

Simply seeing something that appears to be "enveloped" does not mean
that it is amplitude modulated. Linear summation does not get you there.


Time for a trigonometry refresher course:


Are you sure? Could it be semantics?

Modulation is multiplication of two signals, e.g., for sine waves
cos A * cos B.


Funny, I thought modulation was using one signal to control the
amplitude of another signal.

Multiplication?


A basic trigonometric identity tells us this is identical to:
0.5 cos(A+B) - 0.5 cos(A-B), which is a simple linear sum of
sine waves.


Is it identical? Are you saying "sum" or "multiply"? They are
different words. You should choose one.

In conclusion, your assertion that linear summation can't
get you a modulated waveform is wrong.

The 'waveform' is not what is required to be modulated to qualify as
AM. The amplitude of a carrier has to be modulated by the second signal.

Simple summation of the two signals is a summated pair of sine waves.
Shows up a little different on the scope. Besides, you said multiply, not
sum. So, two tens gets you a hundred?

Modulating the amplitude of one sine wave with the other is a different
injection method. Two tens will get you twenty.
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"Sergey Kubushyn" wrote in message


OK, what is the spectrum of e.g. shattered glass sound or
a gunshot?


Ask your friendly neighborhood FFT.

How high it goes when you strike high-hat or
ride cymbal?


Actually, cymbals are not really powerful sources of HF sound. They usually
peak in the 8-10 KHz range and roll off at something like 12 dB/octave above
that.

What is the spectral width of even 1KHz square wave?


Nearly infinite, but how is this relevant to audio?

Good analog gear will give you almost undistorted 10KHz square wave.


True. If you want very low distortion, the digital domain is where you go.

What is the highest sine
wave frequency that should be taken into the equation to
make that 10KHz square wave to even remotedly resemble
the original one?


Do you mean "sounds like" or do you mean traces on the screen of an
oscilliscope?


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