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geoff geoff is offline
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Default B&W 801 series 2 crossover

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Come on, get real. I'm starting to think that the problem in this
thread isn't that the O.P. is overthinking things, as Dick Pierce has
surmised (or that he's just an idiot, per Meat Plow's usual
conclusion). Well, if he is full of doubt and uncertainty, it's
because people like you keep posting things that make him believe
that he can't just replace the damned resistor with an ordinary power
resistor and be done with it. So thanks for muddying the waters here.


My way of 'real' thinking is that if you have a ZRolls Royce, would you bung
in any old rubber belt, or get either the proper one, or one that fitted
exactly ?

We are not talking about fixing a pair of Auratones here....

geoff


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"geoff" wrote in message

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Come on, get real. I'm starting to think that the
problem in this thread isn't that the O.P. is
overthinking things, as Dick Pierce has surmised (or
that he's just an idiot, per Meat Plow's usual
conclusion). Well, if he is full of doubt and
uncertainty, it's because people like you keep posting
things that make him believe that he can't just replace
the damned resistor with an ordinary power resistor and
be done with it. So thanks for muddying the waters here.


My way of 'real' thinking is that if you have a ZRolls
Royce, would you bung in any old rubber belt, or get
either the proper one, or one that fitted exactly ?

We are not talking about fixing a pair of Auratones
here....


Ever look under the hood of a Rolls or other expensive car?

The belts appear to be the usual off-the-shelf products.

If a common good quality belt can last for 100,000 miles or more if properly
installed and inspected and perhaps re-adjusted infrequently, why would
these cars use or have anything else?


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guy25 guy25 is offline
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Thanks Paul G.

Just like you said. The speaker resistor was burned out cause my friend abuse My system (i have party at home). The resistor got over heat and burn before it damage the drive (fusible) that why I'm so careful when trying to match. I order some from Liberty Electronic Inc. in Miami, Florida with Matching Ohm and watt. After resistor replaced I'll let the forum know the result.

Once again I would like to express my sincerely thanks to everybody here have given out a lot of wonderful advice. But everybody have different understand, knowledge that's why people have their own opinion but why have to use hash word or be mad because the other have different opinion?
I'm bring this subject here cause I'm a new hopefully will learn some thing from pro. If I already know what it is why bother.

best regard, Jimmy P.
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"geoff" wrote in message


We are talking about speaker that cost over $10K here, so
I think it would be sacrilege to throw in something that
devalues them in any way.


If you take that approach to its logical conclusion, you turn the whole
thing over to an authorized service facility.

I sense that anxiety, not reason is driving one side of the discussion.

The technical advice has been very good and very pragmatic, but it does not
seem to be meeting some people's psychic needs.

There's nothing wrong with spending money this way, if the anxiety or
concerns about local skills gets to be too much.


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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"geoff" wrote in message

Mr.T wrote:
adjacent speaker, and match the resistance to within 1%
or so.



Which contradicts your premise since the drivers are
different and the resistors would have to be matched to
THAT driver IF you think it's THAT critical.
The only way would be to properly test it, which is
obviously beyond the OP.


The original pair of speakers would be matched to around
0.5dB. Why not do it right, or get somebody competent to
do it ?


Given the natural acoustic variations in the room, this level of matching
while laudible, probably has very little practical value.




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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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On 5/20/2010 6:05 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"geoff" wrote in message


We are talking about speaker that cost over $10K here, so
I think it would be sacrilege to throw in something that
devalues them in any way.


If you take that approach to its logical conclusion, you turn the whole
thing over to an authorized service facility.

I sense that anxiety, not reason is driving one side of the discussion.

The technical advice has been very good and very pragmatic, but it does not
seem to be meeting some people's psychic needs.

There's nothing wrong with spending money this way, if the anxiety or
concerns about local skills gets to be too much.


You're probably not wrong, and let's call things what they are here;
we're dealing with the hand-wringing anxiety of the under-informed
audiophool who lives in mortal fear of the degradation of sound from
their expen$ive equipment.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
  #47   Report Post  
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com
On 5/20/2010 6:05 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"geoff" wrote in message


We are talking about speaker that cost over $10K here,
so I think it would be sacrilege to throw in something
that devalues them in any way.


If you take that approach to its logical conclusion, you
turn the whole thing over to an authorized service
facility. I sense that anxiety, not reason is driving one side of
the discussion. The technical advice has been very good and very
pragmatic, but it does not seem to be meeting some
people's psychic needs. There's nothing wrong with spending money this
way, if
the anxiety or concerns about local skills gets to be
too much.


You're probably not wrong, and let's call things what
they are here; we're dealing with the hand-wringing
anxiety of the under-informed audiophool who lives in
mortal fear of the degradation of sound from their
expen$ive equipment.


Exactly.


  #48   Report Post  
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GregS[_3_] GregS[_3_] is offline
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Default B&W 801 series 2 crossover

In article , guy25 wrote:

Thanks Paul G.

Just like you said. The speaker resistor was burned out cause my friend
abuse My system (i have party at home). The resistor got over heat and
burn before it damage the drive (fusible) that why I'm so careful when
trying to match. I order some from Liberty Electronic Inc. in Miami,
Florida with Matching Ohm and watt. After resistor replaced I'll let
the forum know the result.

Once again I would like to express my sincerely thanks to everybody
here have given out a lot of wonderful advice. But everybody have
different understand, knowledge that's why people have their own
opinion but why have to use hash word or be mad because the other have
different opinion?
I'm bring this subject here cause I'm a new hopefully will learn some
thing from pro. If I already know what it is why bother.

best regard, Jimmy P.



A long series, but I'm shaking my head.

Try a pair of Cerwin Vega's for the party next time.


greg
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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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Default B&W 801 series 2 crossover

On 5/20/2010 6:03 AM guy25 spake thus:

Just like you said. The speaker resistor was burned out cause my friend
abuse My system (i have party at home). The resistor got over heat and
burn before it damage the drive (fusible) that why I'm so careful when
trying to match. I order some from Liberty Electronic Inc. in Miami,
Florida with Matching Ohm and watt. After resistor replaced I'll let
the forum know the result.


As has been pointed out by others with *far* more knowledge than I have,
that is *not* a fusible resistor. Your "friend" did indeed abuse your
speakers, and you're lucky if there wasn't damage to the drivers (which
were *not* protected by the resistor for reasons which have been
exhaustively explained elsewhere).

Once again I would like to express my sincerely thanks to everybody
here have given out a lot of wonderful advice. But everybody have
different understand, knowledge that's why people have their own
opinion but why have to use hash word or be mad because the other have
different opinion?


Well, the reason there are sometimes harsh words is that some folk's
opinions *are* better than others. I'm not even referring to my own, but
to those of, say, Dick Pierce, who actually *knows* what he's talking
about, instead of speculating. (You'll find a lot of speculation on
Usenet, of course: comes with the territory.) So you need to adjust your
filters accordingly when reading replies here.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"GregS" wrote in message



Try a pair of Cerwin Vega's for the party next time.


It seems like people who can afford $12,000 for speakers for serious music
lisetning, could also afford say $1200 for some good DJ or other live sound
speakers.

They'd get louder and cleaner, and they'd take the use without considering
it abuse. May I recommend a pair of Electrovoice ZX-4s?




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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
The question isn't really whether the O.P. can handle the repair, but
whether they're ready to quit overthinking the problem and just order
the damned resistor. That seems to be their problem.


Well ordering the resistor doesn't help a lot if he can't "handle the
repair" does it?
Simply finding someone who CAN fix it for him is probably a far better
option in this case.

MrT.


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"geoff" wrote in message
...
My way of 'real' thinking is that if you have a ZRolls Royce, would you

bung
in any old rubber belt, or get either the proper one, or one that fitted
exactly ?


I can assure you *many* Rollers have non standard parts fitted to them. Some
of which actually *improve* the vehicle.

We are not talking about fixing a pair of Auratones here....


And we're not talking about the drivers either. B&W do not make their own
resistors after all.

MrT.



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"GregS" wrote in message
...
We have no idea of what the speaker did without looking and testing all

components.
I don't think the OP will do this, and he will likely still have problems.


As I and many others have pointed out frequently.

I worked a little with poly switches. You can get both negative and

positive devices.
It critical to know the the trip current of the device and also the exact
Z of the drivers. They are tricky, are not foolproof, and can also

interefere the
performance.


Sure, but are still far better at protecting a speaker than a 7W resistor!


I have seen sand power resistors get awfull looking yet still work.
I would rather use fire proof resistors at times than carbon or film

resistors,
which thae later seem to be in abundance in my parts bin.


7W carbon or film resistors are not real common however. And I've never
heard of a "sand" resistor, perhaps you really mean the common wire wound
types?

MrT.


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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
You're probably not wrong, and let's call things what
they are here; we're dealing with the hand-wringing
anxiety of the under-informed audiophool who lives in
mortal fear of the degradation of sound from their
expen$ive equipment.


Exactly.


But we still have no idea why he simply didn't take it to an authorised B&W
repair centre in the first place, rather than posting for information here
that he seems unable to use anyway!

MrT.


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"geoff" wrote in message
...
adjacent speaker, and match the resistance to within 1% or so.


Which contradicts your premise since the drivers are different and the
resistors would have to be matched to THAT driver IF you think it's
THAT critical.
The only way would be to properly test it, which is obviously beyond
the OP.


The original pair of speakers would be matched to around 0.5dB.


Perhaps, but you do realise that does not require the resistors to be
matched to 1% in any case?
Not to mention the resistors may be selected to provide the matching rather
than the drivers, thus making your idea pointless.


Why not do it right, or get somebody competent to do it ?


As I have said all along!

MrT.




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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message


7W carbon or film resistors are not real common however.
And I've never heard of a "sand" resistor, perhaps you
really mean the common wire wound types?


In the 1950s or 1960s some ceramic-coated wirewound resistors were dipped
in sand before the coating was baked. Most of the sand adhered, but
sometimes some of it would rub off when handled or shipped.

I'm not sure why this was done.



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geoff geoff is offline
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Dick Pierce wrote:

You can make any claim you want. But, for myself, having
designed several hundred networks and having measured a
few thousand, including specifically running component
sensivity studies, I can say with a reasonable degree
of certainty that your speculations come unaccompanied
by any credible support.


OK so B&W (and KEF and.....) go to the trouble for nothing.

All I said was that as there is very little effort invloved, why not get the
right value part and stick it in ?

geoff



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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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On 5/23/2010 2:17 AM geoff spake thus:

Dick Pierce wrote:

You can make any claim you want. But, for myself, having
designed several hundred networks and having measured a
few thousand, including specifically running component
sensivity studies, I can say with a reasonable degree
of certainty that your speculations come unaccompanied
by any credible support.


OK so B&W (and KEF and.....) go to the trouble for nothing.

All I said was that as there is very little effort invloved, why not get the
right value part and stick it in ?


Absolutely, the OP *should* get the right value part and install it.
That's what we've been saying all along.

Meaning the right *resistance* value. Not necessarily the same
*wattage*. Since it's been pretty well established that this is NOT a
fusible resistor that can "protect" the drivers, there's no harm in
using a higher-power resistor.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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geoff geoff is offline
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David Nebenzahl wrote:


Meaning the right *resistance* value. Not necessarily the same
*wattage*. Since it's been pretty well established that this is NOT a
fusible resistor that can "protect" the drivers, there's no harm in
using a higher-power resistor.


Naa, Dick suggests indirectly that (say) a cap +10% and/or a resistor -10%
won't compromise any paramter of a crossover design. But he'll say he never
suggested any such thing.

geoff


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Dick Pierce wrote:

A couple of milliseconds at 5.5 amps,
and a tweeter voice coil is smoke.

Try dumping 5.5 amps into a woofer voice coil near resonance:
the voice coil could be completely mashed aginst the back plate
of the magnet within a fraction of a second.


Just curious - how many real, continuous Watts can a typical tweeter
(or woofer) voice-coil dissipate, without being damaged?

Apparently, a lot less than what their "music power" ratings might
suggest.



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GregS wrote:

Try a pair of Cerwin Vega's for the party next time.


Or do what I do, when I really want to "let it rip" - switch in a
crossover that sends the lows to some big whomping subwoofers, saving
the mains from the abuse.

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geoff geoff is offline
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Dick Pierce wrote:
geoff wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:


Meaning the right *resistance* value. Not necessarily the same
*wattage*. Since it's been pretty well established that this is NOT
a fusible resistor that can "protect" the drivers, there's no harm
in using a higher-power resistor.


Naa, Dick suggests indirectly that (say) a cap +10% and/or a
resistor -10% won't compromise any paramter of a crossover design. But
he'll say he never suggested any such thing.


Probably because, in fact, he didn't say any such thing.

What he DID say is that in particular circumstances, a
wide tolerance in value will have negligable effects on
actual performance,


Which applies for many things - so why bother to put any effort into making
anything good ?

even to the point of being unmeasurable.


I think you could measure the differences in my example with a cheap
multimeter.

geoff


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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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On 5/30/2010 2:14 AM geoff spake thus:

Dick Pierce wrote:

geoff wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Meaning the right *resistance* value. Not necessarily the same
*wattage*. Since it's been pretty well established that this is NOT
a fusible resistor that can "protect" the drivers, there's no harm
in using a higher-power resistor.

Naa, Dick suggests indirectly that (say) a cap +10% and/or a
resistor -10% won't compromise any paramter of a crossover design. But
he'll say he never suggested any such thing.


Probably because, in fact, he didn't say any such thing.

What he DID say is that in particular circumstances, a
wide tolerance in value will have negligable effects on
actual performance,


Which applies for many things - so why bother to put any effort into making
anything good ?

even to the point of being unmeasurable.


I think you could measure the differences in my example with a cheap
multimeter.


Oh, come on, you're playing semantics games here. You know damn well
that he (Dick Pierce) was referring to measuring the performance of the
system, not just the value of the component.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 5/30/2010 2:14 AM geoff spake thus:
I think you could measure the differences in my example with a cheap
multimeter.


Oh, come on, you're playing semantics games here. You know damn well
that he (Dick Pierce) was referring to measuring the performance of the
system, not just the value of the component.


You think he understands the difference?

MrT.


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David Nebenzahl David Nebenzahl is offline
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On 5/31/2010 2:08 AM Mr.T spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...

On 5/30/2010 2:14 AM geoff spake thus:

I think you could measure the differences in my example with a cheap
multimeter.


Oh, come on, you're playing semantics games here. You know damn well
that he (Dick Pierce) was referring to measuring the performance of the
system, not just the value of the component.


You think he understands the difference?


I wonder ...


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)


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Randy Yates Randy Yates is offline
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Dick Pierce writes:
[...] (Fantastic story and information skipped)


Why does it matter? Simply operate the damned thing in
a reasonable range and be done with it. If you need
more, seek another system configuration.
--
Randy Yates % "And all that I can do
Digital Signal Labs % is say I'm sorry,
% that's the way it goes..."
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com % Getting To The Point', *Balance of Power*, ELO
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