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#1
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
No one needs them anymo you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs
more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them. |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
No one needs them anymo you mic a smaller amp. ** Shame how many of the are on sale and selling well. 300 watt Ampeg SVTs are still popular with bass players. No metal band runs more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have ** Still need some real ones to make that special noise and fill huge stadiums. But the reality is, the vast majority of Marshall stacks are sitting in the bed rooms and garages of wannabes and near geriatric weekend warriors. .... Phil |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Jan 29, 8:49*pm, "Phil Allison" wrote:
No one needs them anymo you mic a smaller amp. ** Shame how many of the are on sale and selling well. * * 300 watt Ampeg SVTs are still popular with bass players. No metal band runs more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have ** Still need some real ones to make that special noise and fill huge stadiums. But the reality is, the vast majority of Marshall stacks are sitting in the bed rooms and garages of wannabes and near geriatric weekend warriors. ... * Phil Bass players buy bigger amplifiers but bass needs bigger ones and the amplifier per se is less a part of the "sound", they don't want power distortion, so want larger amplifiers. Guitar players in rock want power stage distortion, and to achieve it with big amps they need to run them very loud. Too loud. So bass players can use headroom, which is a defecit with guitar. There are some types of guitar playing where they want clean, usually they run solid state simply as it is cheaper per watt. Less maintenance more durable etc. 50-100 watt amps sell very well. Bigger tube amps are rare except the Ampeg SVT for bass. Stones and Southern boogie influenced/admiring/ imitating bassists buy 'em. Aside from Dumble clones even the "boutique" builders are going with 6V6 or EL84 based amps more and more. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
"Phil Allison" But the reality is, the vast majority of Marshall stacks are sitting in the bed rooms and garages of wannabes and near geriatric weekend warriors. Aside from Dumble clones even the "boutique" builders are going with 6V6 or EL84 based amps more and more. ** So called "boutique" amp makers sell almost entirely to bedroom ******s. 95% of all electric guitars are sold to novices and teenage boys. SS amps massively outsell tube models in terms of numbers. Vox tube amps are all made in China and Marshall now have 50W and 100 W tube heads assembled in Vietnam. There is a vast second hand market in tube amps and electric guitars - way bigger than the new market. Working musicians tend to play ( and collect) old guitars and old tube mps - cos they think it looks cool. There is little sanity in any of this. .... Phil |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
wrote in message ... No one needs them anymo you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them. Hmm. Sales of high-power amps are strong. Perhaps its a need to compensate for quality with quantity:-)) But the Pignose 7 which has been around for years has the reputation of a small amp with a huge sound with a carefully placed mic. It weighs only 2 kilos. One sees it often in studios. http://www.mveducation.com/invt/36613/ Iain |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
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#7
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Jan 31, 11:14*am, Lord Valve wrote:
wrote: *No one needs them anymo you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them. Define "high power." LV Certainly more than 50 to 100 watts-and the growth has been in 5 to 25-30 watt amps mostly. The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts-it will put out quite a bit more if the signal level in is high enough. A lot of AC15 and AC30 clones are being built. |
#8
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts ** False on both counts. In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way. Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at 10% THD. The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks. .... Phil |
#9
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:04:56 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote: The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts ** False on both counts. In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way. Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at 10% THD. The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks. Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A? The AC30 OPT is 4k, exactly half the typical 'datasheet' 8k for a pair running Class AB, or B, at 17 Watts (not counting OPT losses). http://www.aikenamps.com/VoxAC30classA_2.html ... Phil |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
"flipper = ****ing IDIOT " The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts ** False on both counts. In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way. Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at 10% THD. The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks. Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A? ** Try reading my post over and over till you drop ****ing dead. ARSEHOLE !! .... Phil |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 18:00:39 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote: "flipper = ****ing IDIOT " The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts ** False on both counts. In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way. Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at 10% THD. The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks. Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A? ** Try reading my post over and over till you drop ****ing dead. You first. ARSEHOLE !! ... Phil |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Feb 1, 4:04*pm, "Phil Allison" wrote:
The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts ** False on both counts. In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way. Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at 10% THD. The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks. ... *Phil Depends on exactly what speakers are used with Vox 30 type amps. Pentode class A efficiency is about 40%, so that if you get 30Watts of class A PO, then there must be 75Watts of input power, and this remains constant between idle and clipping, so that each of 4 tubes tube must have 18.75 Watts of anode Pda even at idle. Clearly this is not the case with Vox AC30, and last time I fixed on I recall each tube laboured hard at 15W Pda when the EL84 specs recommend 12Watts, and sensible hi-fi makers used Pda = 10W per EL84. 30W of pure class A was not to be had from a quad. Baird hi-fi amps managed 60W class AB1 from a six pack though. So Vox AC30 give 20W maybe, with a bitta class AB shoved on top, fine, near enough, and who gives a **** when they are pushed into class C when over driven on each loud note and chord?. Usually, 10 watts of pure class A was regarded as max from a pair of EL84, so 20 Watts class A from a quad. Whenever some idiot talks about muso amps and class A PO, usually most of what they say about anything is uneducated crap. Duzzen Madder, its muso spiel, be happy, don't worry, just smile and don't bother disagreeing. Patrick Turner. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Feb 1, 6:00*pm, "Phil Allison" wrote:
"flipper = *****ing IDIOT " The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts ** False on both counts. In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way.. Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at 10% THD. The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks. Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A? ** Try reading my post over and over till you drop ****ing dead. * * ARSEHOLE *!! ... *Phil- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Flipper is the man who has decreed that he is, like the Popes before him, Infallible, and that it is impossible for him to type anything that is a mistake, shortsighted, economic with truth etc. Nevertheless, he questions 30W class A validity from 4 EL84 like I do. Fact is that EL84 have a quite "gooey" overload character - soft clipping - as has been claimed about various amps, ie, there is compression of the signal before sudden sharp clipping. Ya gotta accept AC30 does have a tolerable overdrive sound, much lerved by lotsa musos. Driven into deep clipping, power becomes class C, beyound initial 20W classA, then 30W mild class AB, then class B then class C with coupling caps retaining a high negative biasing charge due to grid current. I've had guys complain about Vox AC30 clones being a bit useless to record with because they tended to "paralyse" so easy. But levels used were either too high or two low, and low levels below clipping seemed like using a very sick amp, no gutz&bang, so there they were complaining about their amps in my workshop. I can't please everyone all the time. Patrick Turner. |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 05:11:56 -0800 (PST), Patrick Turner
wrote: On Feb 1, 6:00*pm, "Phil Allison" wrote: "flipper = *****ing IDIOT " The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts ** False on both counts. In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way. Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at 10% THD. The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks. Just how do you figure a quad of EL-84s can do 30 Watts Class A? ** Try reading my post over and over till you drop ****ing dead. * * ARSEHOLE *!! ... *Phil- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Flipper is the man who has decreed that he is, like the Popes before him, Infallible, and that it is impossible for him to type anything that is a mistake, shortsighted, economic with truth etc. As usual, Pope Turner projects his own self aggrandizing fantasies onto others. Nevertheless, he questions 30W class A validity from 4 EL84 like I do. Fact is that EL84 have a quite "gooey" overload character - soft clipping - as has been claimed about various amps, ie, there is compression of the signal before sudden sharp clipping. Ya gotta accept AC30 does have a tolerable overdrive sound, much lerved by lotsa musos. Driven into deep clipping, power becomes class C, beyound initial 20W classA, then 30W mild class AB, then class B then class C with coupling caps retaining a high negative biasing charge due to grid current. I've had guys complain about Vox AC30 clones being a bit useless to record with because they tended to "paralyse" so easy. But levels used were either too high or two low, and low levels below clipping seemed like using a very sick amp, no gutz&bang, so there they were complaining about their amps in my workshop. I can't please everyone all the time. Patrick Turner. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
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#16
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:47:50 -0700, Lord Valve
wrote: wrote: On Jan 31, 11:14 am, Lord Valve wrote: wrote: No one needs them anymo you mic a smaller amp. No metal band runs more than one or two of the array of Marshall stacks they like to have and Marshall supplies dummy cabs and heads to many of them. Define "high power." LV Certainly more than 50 to 100 watts-and the growth has been in 5 to 25-30 watt amps mostly. Very few tube guitar amps over 100 watts output were ever produced. The Marshall Major, the Ampeg V-9 (lead guitar version of the SVT) and the Hiwatt DR-201 come to mind, but none have been produced for quite a while now. Fender made the horrid-sounding Super Twin (180 watts claimed; could do maybe 130 with new tubes and high line voltage) and the even more horrid-sounding PS-300. Amps in the 50-100 watt range are still in production and still quite popular. The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts-it will put out quite a bit more if the signal level in is high enough. You can argue with Phil about that one. It's Class A until you run it hard. I understand what you're saying but it might be confusing to those who don't. You can run any Class AB amp at lower Po so the tubes stay out of cutoff but that doesn't turn the amp, itself, into a Class A amplifier. It's still a Class AB amp. The AC30 can do a bit more before cutoff because they're running the tubes hot at 15 Watt vs the manufacturer's Class AB "Typical Operation" of 11 Watt (Design-Center 12 Watt, Design-Maximum 13.2 Watt). Good luck getting "quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s, though. Maybe if you square wave it. A lot of AC15 and AC30 clones are being built. The Chinese ones are ****. Lord Valve Expert (******s are encouraged to whine about it) |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:55:47 -0600, flipper wrote:
Good luck getting "quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s, though. Maybe if you square wave it. Pretty much exactly what you do with a cranked guitar. d |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
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#19
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:47:50 -0700, Lord Valve
wrote: It's Class A until you run it hard. Good luck getting "quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s, though. When it comes to Class-A, I remember what Mr. Nelson Pass said, as I always found him to be the god of Class-A. I can't find the exact quotes, but here's a bit of it IMMSMW: Single Ended A amps (tube or SS) will run A till the circuit involved (tube/transistor/trans/line/caps/etc) cut out. Then it will go out of the specs stated, even distort like crazy, or catch fire. Or just stop. Push-Pull will do the same till it reaches that point, then go into AB, if the circuit will allow it, all the way up to whatever class you want to name. I believe Mr. Pass said this is true for any PP 'A' amp made.. The AC30 IS a PP amp, and IMHO, after 20 or so watts, goes into AB till about 28, if you are lucky, Just because it is cathode biased does NOT make it a REAL 'A' amp. Those who know, pull the single cap/resistor and replace it with separate ones for each tube, and add a separate heater tranz. That helps a bit. ...of course, you have to do some math here... Now..if anyone here wants to call Mr. Pass a ******.. If needed, I can find the article, yet he has his own forum and answers quite often. One amazing guy, he knows Class-A. A lot of AC15 and AC30 clones are being built. The Chinese ones are ****. When I worked for the VOX folks here (Pr1mo) AC30's were made by Custom Sound in the UK. The tubes were crap, but they were UK AC30s. The **** made in China might as well be B-52 level puke, yet sells for danger $. Vox of today is a complete joke, IMHO. JJTj * SENT FROM CELL PHONE DECK# 864378HS * * NO REPLY MODE GIGANEWS T4DSQ-OfK9 * |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
On Jan 31, 11:04*pm, "Phil Allison" wrote:
The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts ** False on both counts. In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way. Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at 10% THD. The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks. ... *Phil If you weren't spastic or autistic, or whatever term is in for lady parts betwixt the legs in your end of planet, Phil, you'd know "not 30 watts" could mean one of two things. I have seen a stock example plugged into US mains voltage on the 115 vac setting put almost 45 watts into a load resistor at around seven percent THD. The filter caps would have blown if they were original at this input voltage and the heaters were obviously glowing at a higher color temperature than is quite right. At bogey line voltage a good AC30 is probably a 35 to 40 watt amp all considered. But it is not Class A at that point either. This is a lot to do why people perceive it as a really loud 30 watt amp. It's more, also the original drivers are rather more efficient than the heavy duty ones in Fenders that Leo had to put in to make them Dick Dale proof. Hank Marvin never abused an amp like Dale did! |
#21
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
Certainly more than 50 to 100 watts-and the growth has been in 5 to 25-30 watt amps mostly. Very few tube guitar amps over 100 watts output were ever produced. The Marshall Major, the Ampeg V-9 (lead guitar version of the SVT) and the Hiwatt DR-201 come to mind, but none have been produced for quite a while now. Fender made the horrid-sounding Super Twin (180 watts claimed; could do maybe 130 with new tubes and high line voltage) and the even more horrid-sounding PS-300. *Amps in the 50-100 watt range are still in production and still quite popular. The 4 tube silverface ultralinear Twin Reverb is the quintessential country and casuals gig amp. I don't keep up with what Fender makes now. I recall they were rated at 135 watts. Mesa Boogie made a lot of 4 tube Mark IIB and Mark IIIs: I never worked on them very much. The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts-it will put out quite a bit more if the signal level in is high enough. You can argue with Phil about that one. It's Class A until you run it hard. *Good luck getting "quite a bit more" than 30 watts out of four El-84s, though. If you have the drive it will. Especially if line voltage is a little high. It's class A power point depends entirely on the tubes that are in it and the cathode resistor. But for a resistor trimmed for bogey quiescent current and four halfway matched tubes, I'm going to put a SWAG of around 25 watts? Be easy enough to measure if i had an AC30 or accurate clone. A lot of AC15 and AC30 clones are being built. The Chinese ones are ****. Yes but what about Ceriatone? I'd be tempted if shipping weren't a high hard one. |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
If you have the drive it will. Especially if line voltage is a little high. It's class A power point depends entirely on the tubes that are in it and the cathode resistor. But for a resistor trimmed for bogey quiescent current and four halfway matched tubes, I'm going to put a SWAG of around 25 watts? Be easy enough to measure if i had an AC30 or accurate clone. ** With the installed speakers and a music signal, the AC30 stays in class A up to the clipping point. What happens with a dummy load resistor is not relevant. The Chinese ones are ****. Yes but what about Ceriatone? ** Full of bugs and design flaws. Perfect for bedroom ******s. ..... Phil |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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High power guitar amps are a dead issue
The AC30 is neither really "Class A" nor really 30 watts ** False on both counts. In actual use driving the installed speakers, it is class A all the way. Most examples will also easily deliver 30 watts rms into a resistive load at 10% THD. The fools who say otherwise are pedantic jerks. If you weren't spastic or autistic, or whatever term is in for lady parts betwixt the legs in your end of planet, Phil, you'd know "not 30 watts" could mean one of two things. ** You are all sweetness and charm, aren't you ? Charm the flies right of a turd - a scumbag like you would !!! BTW: Anyone alive who can read can see you posted a false quote so you could bull**** even harder. FOAD - you pathetic mother ****er. ..... Phil |
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