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Default Vinyl making a comeback?


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it
did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10
years.


Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!!


Revisionst history!


Yes it seems that's what you were attempting.


There was no vinyl 80 years ago. I doubt that the chemical vinyl had even
been invented.


And you ignore that I wrote "(I include acetate disks and cylinders here
which
are the same technology)" to make this point. Why?


There were large black disks with grooves in 1929, but they weren't

vinyl,
they weren't microgroove, they generally were not made or widely played
electronically (electronics was in its infancy), and they weren't stereo.


So what. They WERE similar mechanical groove on disk technology, AND
microgroove/stereo/vinyl disks were around a lot more than ten years in any
case, so your comment was still wrong!


(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the
same technology)


Nope. They were a related, predecessor technology.


Sure, why not say CD4 only lasted a couple of years if you want to make some
stupid, irrelevant point then?


There were many steps along the way.


Absolutely, and 78 disks were so similar they could still be played on many
of the latest turntables. NOT so with CD's which I would say ARE a
completely new technology.

You of course are welcome to any definition you like, as long as you don't
expect the whole world to agree with you!


Vinyl mono ruled from about 1953 to 1958, and vinyl stereo
ruled from 1958 to about 1988. So, give vinyl as we know it a 30 year

run.

And yet you said ten years, why?

MrT.


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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
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I think it's reasonable to assume that we're talking about such vinyl
recordings, not recorded discs with single spiral grooves made from a
variety of other materials (shellac, etc.).


No it's *NOT* since I already said :
"(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same

technology)"

Do NOT narrow MY argument, specifically spell out your own IF you think it's
really necessary to make some stupid point.

MrT.



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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
The context was clearly stated at the beginning of the post that I replied
to:

"Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years.

Which was falsely corrected by the following statement:

" Ignoring the previous 80 years of course."

The official date of the invention of the phonograph was 1877, but that
wasn't when the vinyl LP was invented.



But as YOU correctly point out, YOU never said LP, and Dick correctly states
vinyl dates from 1872!
So trying to be pedantic, you get hoisted by your own petard! :-)

And I still claim acetate 78's etc. were similar technology to microgroove
LP's, whilst CD digital technology was completely new.

MrT.


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Default Vinyl making a comeback?


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
Just to address this small point, I can certainly remember when much
music (not all, to be sure) came out in both LP and cassette formats
(remember that?), and I'm pretty sure there was even a period where some
was released in three formats (LP, cassette and CD).

I won't even go into 8-track territory ...


Yep, because there was a market and money to be made. Shows you just how
little demand there is for vinyl when so LITTLE is now released on that
format!
I don't see many new movies released on VHS or Betamax these days either :-)

MrT.




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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
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I meant *besides* CDs. So let me restate the question: excluding CDs
(and WAV files ripped on a computer and the like), aren't the vast
majority of sound files people listen to in the MP3 format?


Nope, nothing like the 99% you quote!
First you have to subtract most of the Apple format users (fairly big
numbers there), then those who prefer WMA, then those who prefer high
quality formats like Wave and FLAC, and then the other disk formats like
DVDA, ATRAC etc. not to mention dozens of others besides!


Well, I know there are lots of formats in use, no argument there.

My question is how many people use these formats as opposed to MP3s in
iPods and similar listening devices.

Haven't got any statistics at hand, but it seems to me(TM) that when I'm
out and about, the vast majority of folks I see listening to music are
using something to listen to MP3s. So I conclude that this format is
vastly more popular than any other.


And how the hell do you know what format their players are using? You
obviously don't realise many songs downloaded from iTunes (a very sizeable
amount on those iPods) are NOT in fact MP3!
And even WMA alone accounts for more than 1% of such files I will bet. (but
still far less than Apple I imagine)


Do you really think that the examples you gave (like those who use other
formats for higher quality) are more numerous than MP3s?


FAR more numerous than 1% of the market (as you stated) I am quite willing
to bet!

MrT.






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Default Vinyl making a comeback?

On 9/8/2009 7:16 PM Mr.T spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...

Just to address this small point, I can certainly remember when much
music (not all, to be sure) came out in both LP and cassette formats
(remember that?), and I'm pretty sure there was even a period where some
was released in three formats (LP, cassette and CD).

I won't even go into 8-track territory ...


Yep, because there was a market and money to be made. Shows you just how
little demand there is for vinyl when so LITTLE is now released on that
format!


Well, duh. And your point is?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
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Yep, because there was a market and money to be made. Shows you just how
little demand there is for vinyl when so LITTLE is now released on that
format!


Well, duh. And your point is?


Obviously that the above heading, "vinyl making a comeback?" is optimistic
at best!

MrT.


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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
The context was clearly stated at the beginning of the
post that I replied to:

"Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years.

Which was falsely corrected by the following statement:


" Ignoring the previous 80 years of course."


The official date of the invention of the phonograph was
1877, but that wasn't when the vinyl LP was invented.


But as YOU correctly point out, YOU never said LP, and
Dick correctly states vinyl dates from 1872!


Actually, I said:

"If it existed in some lab, there still weren't any production
quantities of it. Vinyl as a production product was a product of the U.S.
synthetic rubber program of WW2."

So, Vinyl existed in some lab 1872. I allowed for that. Vinyl was still a
lab curiosity until the late 1920s, when a B.F. Goodrich scientist learned
how to mix it with plasticizers. Acceptance of the improved product was very
slow until WW2, when the Japanese captured most of the world's rubber
plantations. Anything that somewhat resembled rubber suddenly became very
interesting. During WW2, existing supplies of vinyl were gobbled up by the
military and production boomed. After WW2 there were significant production
resources for vinyl that were suddenly idled, and that is when vinyl became
a consumer product.

Vinyl LPs are very different products than the predecessor 78 rpm
technology, in my view. I was a consumer during the time when LPs first hit
the market. My recollection is that they dramatically changed what music
sounded like when played back by the typical music lover with better
equipment. All things considered, the transition from 78s to LPs was a
similar convenience and sound quality upgrade as was the migration to CDs.
Perhaps not as dramatic, but not that far off.


So trying to be pedantic, you get hoisted by your own
petard! :-)


For all practical purposes, there were no vinyl consumer products until
after WW2.

And I still claim acetate 78's etc. were similar
technology to microgroove LP's, whilst CD digital
technology was completely new.


While 78s can be made to sound good, in general the ones that were sold to
consumers in the day were poor sounding even under ideal conditions, and
were usually played on fairly crude equipment. Acoustic playback was not
unusual. The playing time per side sucked. LPs pretty well forced electronic
playback to become the rule and allowed at least one movement of a classical
piece per side.


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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Will the CD eventually go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it
did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10
years.


Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!!


Revisionist history!


Yes it seems that's what you were attempting.


There was no vinyl 80 years ago. I doubt that the
chemical vinyl had even been invented.


And you ignore that I wrote "(I include acetate disks and
cylinders here which are the same technology)" to make this point. Why?


As I explained in another post, there were monumental sound quality upgrades
at each step along the way. OK, they all worked base on wiggles in a groove.
But I've heard numerous examples of each of these technologies played, and
they are really different.

There were large black disks with grooves in 1929, but
they weren't vinyl, they weren't microgroove, they
generally were not made or widely played electronically
(electronics was in its infancy), and they weren't
stereo.


So what.


To me SQ and performance are very important. Each step along the way from
tinfoil on cylinders to the final vinyl LP of the late 70s brought
significant SQ benefits.

They WERE similar mechanical groove on disk technology


But there were tremendous performance benefits, and the production process
changed violently.

AND microgroove/stereo/vinyl disks were
around a lot more than ten years in any case,


I said that they died in less than 10 years, with the implication that the
10 years started when the CD became available.

so your comment was still wrong!


As you read it.

(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are
the same technology)


Nope. They were a related, predecessor technology.


Sure, why not say CD4 only lasted a couple of years if
you want to make some stupid, irrelevant point then?


CD4 died during childbirth.

There were many steps along the way.


Absolutely, and 78 disks were so similar they could still
be played on many of the latest turntables.


People play cylinders with modern cartridges fitted with special styli on
special players, but they are a violently different technology if you look
at the production steps and the resulting sound quality.

NOT so with CD's which I would say ARE a completely new technology.


Agreed that CDs were a completely new take on the process of distributing
music. However, there was a point where some thought that RCA's video disc
technology, which was based on mechanically playing a spiral groove on a
disk would replace the LP. It could handle digital data at acceptable data
rates for uncompressed PCM.

You of course are welcome to any definition you like, as
long as you don't expect the whole world to agree with
you!


It appears that I did not do a good job of expressing the idea that the 10
years of vinyl death did not start until there was a viable alternative,
namely the CD.

Vinyl mono ruled from about 1953 to 1958, and vinyl
stereo ruled from 1958 to about 1988. So, give vinyl as we
know it a 30 year run.


And yet you said ten years, why?


I was referring to the overlap, after the CD became marketable. Vinyl
stopped ruling around 1988, and by 1993 it was clear to all but a few noisy
high end audiophiles that it was dead as a mainstream format.


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On 9/8/2009 11:06 PM Mr.T spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...

Yep, because there was a market and money to be made. Shows you just how
little demand there is for vinyl when so LITTLE is now released on that
format!


Well, duh. And your point is?


Obviously that the above heading, "vinyl making a comeback?" is optimistic
at best!


Well, two things: 1) You did notice the question mark after, didn't
you? and 2) making a comeback doesn't necessarily mean "becoming the
dominant technology". I basically mean coming back from the grave here.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism


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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
The context was clearly stated at the beginning of the
post that I replied to:

"Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years.

Which was falsely corrected by the following statement:


" Ignoring the previous 80 years of course."


The official date of the invention of the phonograph was
1877, but that wasn't when the vinyl LP was invented.


But as YOU correctly point out, YOU never said LP, and
Dick correctly states vinyl dates from 1872!


Actually, I said:

"If it existed in some lab, there still weren't any production
quantities of it. Vinyl as a production product was a product of the U.S.
synthetic rubber program of WW2."


Nope, that was later and still wrong.

Vinyl LPs are very different products than the predecessor 78 rpm
technology, in my view.


You are welcome to it. Most others would disagree the *technology* was all
that different though.


And I still claim acetate 78's etc. were similar
technology to microgroove LP's, whilst CD digital
technology was completely new.


While 78s can be made to sound good, in general the ones that were sold to
consumers in the day were poor sounding even under ideal conditions, and
were usually played on fairly crude equipment. Acoustic playback was not
unusual. The playing time per side sucked. LPs pretty well forced

electronic
playback to become the rule and allowed at least one movement of a

classical
piece per side.


You really are clutching at straws Arny to try and justify your statement :
"Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years"

That's the one I disputed, and still do. You have still provided no
clarification or justification that would make it correct.

MrT.


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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
It appears that I did not do a good job of expressing the idea


At last something we agree on :-)

that the 10
years of vinyl death did not start until there was a viable alternative,
namely the CD.


And since "33 RPM, vinyl, microgroove, stereo, LP's" (as you later redefined
and narrowed your argument) are still being made, news of it's death seems
to be slightly premature. Obviously it is a mere shadow of it's former self
though!
I for one do not mourn it's loss either.

MrT.


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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
Obviously that the above heading, "vinyl making a comeback?" is

optimistic
at best!


Well, two things: 1) You did notice the question mark after, didn't
you?


Yes, my answer to the question was in the negative if YOU noticed.


and 2) making a comeback doesn't necessarily mean "becoming the
dominant technology". I basically mean coming back from the grave here.


And since it's has never been buried, how could it "come back from the
grave"?
And it seems to me it's just as unhealthy as it's ever been though.

MrT.


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David Nebenzahl wrote:
: On 9/7/2009 5:29 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

: "David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
: s.com...
:
: But there's *nothing* inherent in the production and sale of
: music discs that similarly would preclude someone from being able
: to choose one format over another;
:
: Sure there is, the fact that selling music is a business. There is no
: business case for putting all music out in both LP and CD format.

: Just to address this small point, I can certainly remember when much
: music (not all, to be sure) came out in both LP and cassette formats
: (remember that?)

Yes I do. Cassettes were great for portability, not so much for
durability or ease of changing tracks. Vinyl was impossible to
port around (well, almost: see http://ookworld.com/hiwayhifi.html),
but didn't get eaten up by a malfunctioning player, and you could skip
tracks with the greatest of ease. So each one filled a marketing
niche the other couldn't. As Arny pointed out, there's no such equivalent
for vinyl/CD. (Aside from the retro appeal, or people confused by the
claims that vinyl reproduces music better).

, and I'm pretty sure there was even a period where some
: was released in three formats (LP, cassette and CD).

Perhaps the transition point, when CD players were new enough that they
were very pricey? A few years ago movies were standardly released on DVD
and VHS tape for that reason. Didn't last long.

-- Andy Barss
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Michael Black wrote:
: what *should* the next medium be? (Not necessarily the same thing, of
: course.)
:
: That's the transistion. CDs aren't disappearing because a better medium
: came along (be it the more portable notion of cassettes that helped to
: drive off records, or the higher density and maybe better sound of the
: CD that finished off records). They are disappearing because people
: are either not buying music, or have decided to buy electronically.

: I find this terrible. My 30 year old records still exist, they are
: tangible complete with the record covers. Same with CDs, I can pop
: those in my computer and make them digital or even into MP3s, and while
: those formats are even better than CD convenience wise (just like CDs
: were more convenient than records by being smaller, higher density,
: and in equipment that could be remotely controlled), I want the tangible
: CD to ensure I actually have the music.

: Yes, I suppose the CD could break or get scratched and become useless.
: But I damaged only one of my records, through stupidity, in thirty years,
: so why should I expect CDs to fail? But there does seem something
: terribly insecure about buying a digital file and keeping it on my
: hard drive.

: There's a world of difference between choosing to convert CDs or
: cassettes or records into MP3s for practical reasons, and a scenario
: where MP3s become the form of music because the smaller size makes
: it easier to retrieve.


What really worries me is DRM. I have the CDs in
storage, and I play FLAC files from a (well backed up) hard drive.
What makes this easy is that I own the CD, and there are no
software constraints on what I can do with a FLAC file I rip from it.
I can copy it to any hard drive I like, make multiple copies on various
media, play it on any computer I use.

What I'm afraid of is that this is going to end, and I'll need a license
to listen to a given song/album for every device I want to listen to it
on/from/with. Buy a new computer, gotta buy the music all over again.

This is also true for ebooks, one of several reasons I
refuse to buy an e-reader.

-- Andy Barss


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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
The context was clearly stated at the beginning of the
post that I replied to:

"Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years.

Which was falsely corrected by the following statement:


" Ignoring the previous 80 years of course."


The official date of the invention of the phonograph
was 1877, but that wasn't when the vinyl LP was
invented.


But as YOU correctly point out, YOU never said LP, and
Dick correctly states vinyl dates from 1872!


Actually, I said:

"If it existed in some lab, there still weren't any
production


quantities of it. Vinyl as a production product was a
product of the U.S. synthetic rubber program of WW2."


Nope, that was later and still wrong.


Prove it. Show that there were a variety of mainstream products made of
vinyl prior to WW2.

Note for example that the patent for vinyl electrical tape was applied for
in 1946:

"Experiments were conducted combining new plasticizers with the white,
flour-like vinyl resin. Finally, in January 1946, inventors Snell, Oace, and
Eastwood of 3M applied for a patent for a vinyl electrical tape with a
plasticizer system and non-sulfur-based rubber adhesive that were
compatible. The first commercially available version of the tape was sold
for use as a wire-harness wrapping."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_tape

Also note the following in the same article:

"In the early 1940s, vinyl plastic emerged as a highly versatile material
for a wide range of applications, from shower curtains to cable insulation.
Making it work for tape, however, was a different story."

What the article doesn't say is that the emergence of vinyl products in the
early 1940s was almost entirely funneled into the war effort. For example
there was no production of automobiles or airplanes for any purpose but the
war.

Vinyl LPs are very different products than the
predecessor 78 rpm technology, in my view.


You are welcome to it. Most others would disagree the
*technology* was all that different though.


The results were very different. The means were evolutionary at their core,
but their implementation fostered other significant changes in actual
practice. For example magnetic cartridges and electronic amplification had
been around for decades, but the vinyl LP finally sent acoustical playback
packing.

And I still claim acetate 78's etc. were similar
technology to microgroove LP's, whilst CD digital
technology was completely new.


While 78s can be made to sound good, in general the ones
that were sold to consumers in the day were poor
sounding even under ideal conditions, and were usually
played on fairly crude equipment. Acoustic playback was
not unusual. The playing time per side sucked. LPs
pretty well forced electronic playback to become the
rule and allowed at least one movement of a classical
piece per side.


You really are clutching at straws Arny to try and
justify your statement : "Vinyl basically died in less
than 10 years"

That's the one I disputed, and still do. You have still
provided no clarification or justification that would
make it correct.

MrT.



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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
It appears that I did not do a good job of expressing
the idea


At last something we agree on :-)

that the 10
years of vinyl death did not start until there was a
viable alternative, namely the CD.


And since "33 RPM, vinyl, microgroove, stereo, LP's" (as
you later redefined and narrowed your argument) are still
being made, news of it's death seems to be slightly
premature.


Horse-drawn buggies are dead as a mainstream means of transportation,
however recent personal observation found a few of them operational in the
Central Park region of Manhattan and rural areas in Pennsylvania, Indiana,
and Michigan as well as numerous racing tracks around the world. The tiny
volumes of LPs still being made is a similar situation.


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On Thu, 10 Sep 2009, Andrew Barss wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
: On 9/7/2009 5:29 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

: "David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
: s.com...
:
: But there's *nothing* inherent in the production and sale of
: music discs that similarly would preclude someone from being able
: to choose one format over another;
:
: Sure there is, the fact that selling music is a business. There is no
: business case for putting all music out in both LP and CD format.

: Just to address this small point, I can certainly remember when much
: music (not all, to be sure) came out in both LP and cassette formats
: (remember that?)

Yes I do. Cassettes were great for portability, not so much for
durability or ease of changing tracks. Vinyl was impossible to
port around (well, almost: see http://ookworld.com/hiwayhifi.html),
but didn't get eaten up by a malfunctioning player, and you could skip
tracks with the greatest of ease. So each one filled a marketing
niche the other couldn't. As Arny pointed out, there's no such equivalent
for vinyl/CD. (Aside from the retro appeal, or people confused by the
claims that vinyl reproduces music better).

, and I'm pretty sure there was even a period where some
: was released in three formats (LP, cassette and CD).

Perhaps the transition point, when CD players were new enough that they
were very pricey? A few years ago movies were standardly released on DVD
and VHS tape for that reason. Didn't last long.

It was a longer overlap period, close to a decade. Cassettes were pretty
standard from the early seventies, so virtually anything that came out in
record was on cassette. Then CDs came along, and it took some time to
ramp up, and obviously old releases stayed on CD and cassette as they
were introduced to CD. New releases, they coudln't be on CD only since
the market wasn't there.

I thought the last record I bought was in 1988 or 89, but a check shows
the record I'm thinking of came out in 1986. I may have bought something
a couple of years later.

The 1986 record I could have bought it on cassette, I could have bought
it on CD too. There was a bonus track on the CD.

After that I bought on cassette for most of a decade, though it was
a sparse music buying period for me. I erroneously thought I wanted
the more compact nature of cassettes, and I couldn't afford a CD player
(or what seemed to be too high prices on CDs). Records were definitely
still being sold, but they were gradually disappearing from 1986 on, which
may have impacted on my buying, but I also didn't have a good cassette
deck until 1986 (all I had previously wsa old portable cassette players).

It was also complicated, since when the Walkman and their like came along
in the early early eighties, that was a big incentive to go cassette. It
wasnt' the death of records, it was the portability of cassette. So
cassette sales took off at about the same time as the introduction of
the CD, while the CD was a lot more sluggish. Records lost ground to
cassettes before they lost real ground to CDs.

The thing about DVDs is they made a much faster impact than previous
things. One minute they were there, the next the players were fairly
cheap. Almost if you blinked, you'd have missed it.

The switch to CD required a willingness to spend more on the CDs and to
buy the fairly expensive player, and "sound" apart, you would mostly be
buying music you already had.

VCRs took a long time to drop to the under $100 mark, but their adoption
came earlier since it was something you couldn't really do before, watch
movies on tv. It was likely helped along by videotape rental, which
lessened the cost of buying tapes (but of course, was offset by an initial
concept that the movies should cost a lot).

But DVD players were cheap within a few years of them getting much
attention. Some have said they were sold at lower profit or below
cost in order to fuel sales of the actual DVDs. Who knows. A DVD player
is mechanically simpler than a VCR, and they'd already had good experience
with the transports via CD players, so while there was development cost,
it was likely less than when CD players were introduced.

If most people were merely watching movies, then the loss of recording
ability didn't really matter. But in return, they got a machine that
wasn't likely to damage the medium. I've lost a number of videotapes
because the VCRs have jammed. DVDs take up less space. So there
probably was good incentive to switchover, and fast.

Michael
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
And since "33 RPM, vinyl, microgroove, stereo, LP's" (as
you later redefined and narrowed your argument) are still
being made, news of it's death seems to be slightly
premature.


Horse-drawn buggies are dead as a mainstream means of transportation,
however recent personal observation found a few of them operational in

the
Central Park region of Manhattan and rural areas in Pennsylvania, Indiana,
and Michigan as well as numerous racing tracks around the world.


Exactly, and how many are being pulled by "DEAD" horses?


The tiny volumes of LPs still being made is a similar situation.


Never in dispute. Your stupid 10 year claim was.

MrT.


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