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Leigh Orf Leigh Orf is offline
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Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem


Hi,

Over the past ten years I've been incrementally upgrading a stock
factory-wired Dynaco ST-70 which introduced me to the world of
hollow-state audio. I'm to the point now where there aren't many
original components left in the amplifier. But, I have a problem that is
driving me nuts. First, a list of all mods I have done:

1. SDS Labs Capacitor board
2. Triode Electronics "Classic EF86" driver board (2xEF86, ECC82)
3. Replaced EL34 tube sockets and associated resistors
4. Replaced power cord, speaker connectors, line in connectors, removed
mono/stereo switch.

Amp had been rewired with a diode in place of the GZ34, I re-wired it
back, so the GZ34 is in operation.

In fact, it occurs to me that there are no original capacitors or
resistors in the amplifier.

The power transformer, output transformer, and bias pots are original.

The problem:

The right channel puts out a low-level quasi-random static/crackle
with a background "rushing" pinkish noise when the amp has been on for
a while. It comes and goes, but often persists once it starts. It is
especially maddening when I am listening to soft music. The quality of
the music does not seem to be affected by this problem - it's just there
in the background. Here is what I've done as far as troubleshooting
goes:

1. Twiddle bias pots to see if twiddling affects noise - nope.
2. Swapped EL34's - noise stays in right channel.
3. Swapped EF86's - noise stays in right channel.
4. Pull right EF86 - noise stays in right channel.
5. Pull ECC82 - noise GOES AWAY.

In fact, it was only after beginning this message that I tried pulling
the ECC82 tube, following the troubleshooting suggestions in the Triode
Electronics literature that came with my driver board upgrade (which
says pull all of the driver board tubes and see if the noise persists).

I know it's probably not wise to pull tubes while the amp is running but
the problem can take a long time to start after powering up!

I had thought that I had narrowed it down to the bias pots (cheap to
replace) and output transformers (not cheap to replace) but now I am
beginning to suspect the driver board again.

I have re-soldered connections on the driver board as well as swapped
out the ECC82 tube with a new one - problem persists. I highly doubt
both ECC82 tubes are bad but I suppose it is possible. This is my third
ECC82 tube, come to think of it. I believe I sent one back to Triode
Electronics a couple years ago when this problem first came up - maybe I
sent back a good tube??

I would appreciate any suggestions.

Leigh

--
Leigh Orf http://orf.cx
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
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Jon Yaeger Jon Yaeger is offline
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Posts: 645
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem

in article , Leigh Orf at
wrote on 1/3/07 10:29 PM:


Hi,

Over the past ten years I've been incrementally upgrading a stock
factory-wired Dynaco ST-70 which introduced me to the world of
hollow-state audio. I'm to the point now where there aren't many
original components left in the amplifier. But, I have a problem that is
driving me nuts. First, a list of all mods I have done:

1. SDS Labs Capacitor board
2. Triode Electronics "Classic EF86" driver board (2xEF86, ECC82)
3. Replaced EL34 tube sockets and associated resistors
4. Replaced power cord, speaker connectors, line in connectors, removed
mono/stereo switch.

Amp had been rewired with a diode in place of the GZ34, I re-wired it
back, so the GZ34 is in operation.

In fact, it occurs to me that there are no original capacitors or
resistors in the amplifier.

The power transformer, output transformer, and bias pots are original.

The problem:

The right channel puts out a low-level quasi-random static/crackle
with a background "rushing" pinkish noise when the amp has been on for
a while. It comes and goes, but often persists once it starts. It is
especially maddening when I am listening to soft music. The quality of
the music does not seem to be affected by this problem - it's just there
in the background. Here is what I've done as far as troubleshooting
goes:

1. Twiddle bias pots to see if twiddling affects noise - nope.
2. Swapped EL34's - noise stays in right channel.
3. Swapped EF86's - noise stays in right channel.
4. Pull right EF86 - noise stays in right channel.
5. Pull ECC82 - noise GOES AWAY.

In fact, it was only after beginning this message that I tried pulling
the ECC82 tube, following the troubleshooting suggestions in the Triode
Electronics literature that came with my driver board upgrade (which
says pull all of the driver board tubes and see if the noise persists).

I know it's probably not wise to pull tubes while the amp is running but
the problem can take a long time to start after powering up!

I had thought that I had narrowed it down to the bias pots (cheap to
replace) and output transformers (not cheap to replace) but now I am
beginning to suspect the driver board again.

I have re-soldered connections on the driver board as well as swapped
out the ECC82 tube with a new one - problem persists. I highly doubt
both ECC82 tubes are bad but I suppose it is possible. This is my third
ECC82 tube, come to think of it. I believe I sent one back to Triode
Electronics a couple years ago when this problem first came up - maybe I
sent back a good tube??

I would appreciate any suggestions.

Leigh



Offhand it sounds like resistor noise. I'd look especially closely at the
plate resistors around the ECC82 circuit.

It wouldn't hurt to treat the pins on the small-signal tubes with DeOxit
just to be sure that socket contact isn't a problem.

I tried the Triode Labs board and didn't care for the result. I've had much
better luck with the Welbourne Labs circuit, but it is harder to implement.

Good luck!

Jon

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Bob H. Bob H. is offline
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Posts: 118
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem


Leigh Orf wrote:
Hi,

Over the past ten years I've been incrementally upgrading a stock
factory-wired Dynaco ST-70 which introduced me to the world of
hollow-state audio. I'm to the point now where there aren't many
original components left in the amplifier. But, I have a problem that is
driving me nuts. First, a list of all mods I have done:

1. SDS Labs Capacitor board
2. Triode Electronics "Classic EF86" driver board (2xEF86, ECC82)
3. Replaced EL34 tube sockets and associated resistors
4. Replaced power cord, speaker connectors, line in connectors, removed
mono/stereo switch.

Amp had been rewired with a diode in place of the GZ34, I re-wired it
back, so the GZ34 is in operation.

In fact, it occurs to me that there are no original capacitors or
resistors in the amplifier.

The power transformer, output transformer, and bias pots are original.

The problem:

The right channel puts out a low-level quasi-random static/crackle
with a background "rushing" pinkish noise when the amp has been on for
a while. It comes and goes, but often persists once it starts. It is
especially maddening when I am listening to soft music. The quality of
the music does not seem to be affected by this problem - it's just there
in the background. Here is what I've done as far as troubleshooting
goes:

1. Twiddle bias pots to see if twiddling affects noise - nope.
2. Swapped EL34's - noise stays in right channel.
3. Swapped EF86's - noise stays in right channel.
4. Pull right EF86 - noise stays in right channel.
5. Pull ECC82 - noise GOES AWAY.

In fact, it was only after beginning this message that I tried pulling
the ECC82 tube, following the troubleshooting suggestions in the Triode
Electronics literature that came with my driver board upgrade (which
says pull all of the driver board tubes and see if the noise persists).

I know it's probably not wise to pull tubes while the amp is running but
the problem can take a long time to start after powering up!

I had thought that I had narrowed it down to the bias pots (cheap to
replace) and output transformers (not cheap to replace) but now I am
beginning to suspect the driver board again.

I have re-soldered connections on the driver board as well as swapped
out the ECC82 tube with a new one - problem persists. I highly doubt
both ECC82 tubes are bad but I suppose it is possible. This is my third
ECC82 tube, come to think of it. I believe I sent one back to Triode
Electronics a couple years ago when this problem first came up - maybe I
sent back a good tube??

I would appreciate any suggestions.

Leigh



I've got the mod (I built it myself), and it's very quiet. I triode
connected the ef86 on mine.
It sounds like you may have a bad signal tube socket, or possibly a
strand of wire may be brushing the chassis or something else. Pulling
the 12au7 suggests the problem is signal related, coming from before or
at the 12au7, or being fed back through the feedback loop. Check the
feedback circuit for anything wrong. Try opening the feedback loop and
see if the sound goes away.

Good Luck
Bob H.

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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Posts: 960
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem

Leigh Orf wrote

Over the past ten years I've been incrementally upgrading a stock
factory-wired Dynaco ST-70 which introduced me to the world of
hollow-state audio. I'm to the point now where there aren't many
original components left in the amplifier. But, I have a problem
that is
driving me nuts. First, a list of all mods I have done:

1. SDS Labs Capacitor board
2. Triode Electronics "Classic EF86" driver board (2xEF86, ECC82)
3. Replaced EL34 tube sockets and associated resistors
4. Replaced power cord, speaker connectors, line in connectors,
removed
mono/stereo switch.

Amp had been rewired with a diode in place of the GZ34, I re-wired
it
back, so the GZ34 is in operation.

In fact, it occurs to me that there are no original capacitors or
resistors in the amplifier.

The power transformer, output transformer, and bias pots are
original.

The problem:

The right channel puts out a low-level quasi-random static/crackle
with a background "rushing" pinkish noise when the amp has been on
for
a while. It comes and goes, but often persists once it starts. It is
especially maddening when I am listening to soft music. The quality
of
the music does not seem to be affected by this problem - it's just
there
in the background. Here is what I've done as far as troubleshooting
goes:

1. Twiddle bias pots to see if twiddling affects noise - nope.
2. Swapped EL34's - noise stays in right channel.
3. Swapped EF86's - noise stays in right channel.
4. Pull right EF86 - noise stays in right channel.
5. Pull ECC82 - noise GOES AWAY.

In fact, it was only after beginning this message that I tried
pulling
the ECC82 tube, following the troubleshooting suggestions in the
Triode
Electronics literature that came with my driver board upgrade (which
says pull all of the driver board tubes and see if the noise
persists).

I know it's probably not wise to pull tubes while the amp is running
but
the problem can take a long time to start after powering up!

I had thought that I had narrowed it down to the bias pots (cheap to
replace) and output transformers (not cheap to replace) but now I am
beginning to suspect the driver board again.

I have re-soldered connections on the driver board as well as
swapped
out the ECC82 tube with a new one - problem persists. I highly doubt
both ECC82 tubes are bad but I suppose it is possible. This is my
third
ECC82 tube, come to think of it. I believe I sent one back to Triode
Electronics a couple years ago when this problem first came up -
maybe I
sent back a good tube??

I would appreciate any suggestions.


Looking at the original circuit diagram,

http://www.curcioaudio.com/st7_mnl.pdf

the ECC82 is used as a concertina phase splitter for each channel. The
only associated components are the two 47k load resistors and the two
coupling caps.

If pulling the pentodes makes no difference to the noise, but pulling
the ECC82 does, then the chances are that the valve is at fault.
Possibly an internal short. Possibly heater/cathode due to poor valve
and voltage difference due to elevated cathode.

Easiest thing would be to swap the ECC82. You'll need another someday
anyway, so you may as well get one now.

A longer shot is a failing coupling cap, as this would also be
relieved by removing the ECC82. Presumably they are plastic caps
though, and I can't see how they could be responsible for the fault
you describe.

Other than that, as others have suggested, a dry solder joint, cracked
trace or broken resistor associated with the ECC82 could be failing as
the amp warms up.

Up to the point when it went awry, BTW, were all those mods
worthwhile?

cheers, Ian


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Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
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Posts: 2,418
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem


Leigh Orf wrote:

Hiss-crackle-pop w/an ST-70, right channel.


Betcha dollars to green M&Ms that you have a poor connection somewhere.
Either a broken trace, cold solder, bad tube pin, bad socket or
similar. Most especially as it is confined to a single channel.

Note that this could just as easily be a factory solder *or trace* on
the board as anything you did.

I keep an ST-70 as well, with the OEM phenolic driver board. However
there is not much on that board that is original (caps or resistors),
nor are the traces original either... each one is 'traced' with a
strand of copper wire against breaks. Such parts (relative to all
things) are cheap such that 1% tolerance and channel-to-channel
matching is no trick and makes for nice stability overall.

Unless you are using Chinese tubes, that is. If so, all bets are off. I
feel about Chinese tubes much as Bret feels about the ST-70 in
general. It is possible that the Chinese may make a decent tube, just
not very likely.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA



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This is a fake email address This is a fake email address is offline
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Posts: 1
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem

Ian Iveson wrote:
Looking at the original circuit diagram,

http://www.curcioaudio.com/st7_mnl.pdf

the ECC82 is used as a concertina phase splitter for each
channel. The only associated components are the two 47k load
resistors and the two coupling caps.

If pulling the pentodes makes no difference to the noise, but
pulling the ECC82 does, then the chances are that the valve is
at fault. Possibly an internal short. Possibly heater/cathode
due to poor valve and voltage difference due to elevated
cathode.

Easiest thing would be to swap the ECC82. You'll need another
someday anyway, so you may as well get one now.


The thing is, I did just that! The new tube exhibited the same behavior.
Unless both tubes are bad, and in a similar way, the tube is off the
hook.

A longer shot is a failing coupling cap, as this would also be
relieved by removing the ECC82. Presumably they are plastic
caps though, and I can't see how they could be responsible for
the fault you describe.


The coupling caps are new (fat orange) Sprague capacitors, FYI.

I will go back in and heat up solder joints ... again ... try some
contact cleaner (on brand new tubes in brand new gold plated tube
sockets)... and if it persists I will start replacing the circuitry
around the tube as suggested by another poster.

Intermittents suck!

Other than that, as others have suggested, a dry solder joint,
cracked trace or broken resistor associated with the ECC82
could be failing as the amp warms up.

Up to the point when it went awry, BTW, were all those mods
worthwhile?


The short answer is yes, I am very happy with the final sound of the
amp, although it has been plagued with intermittent noise of one sort or
another since day one. This project has been a hobby as much as a quest
to get decent affordable audio (I'm a ham radio operator / scientist and
like getting the soldering iron out and building things).

The original amp had the usual problems you'd expect - even more noise
from the 7199 tube sockets - so the driver board was the first to be
replaced. I forget exactly what motivated me to replace the power supply
ciruitry. The power tube socket replacements was due to one of the pins
breaking off due to my own incompetence (whoops) but in my own defense
the original tabs were pretty flimsy. I figured "for symmetry" and for
the hell of it I'd replace all four.

Long ago I decided that I was not going to be a bonifide audiophile
because it is too expensive and somewhat of a fool's errand where
infinitessimal improvements come at exponential prices, and in fact I
go out of my way to avoid listening to high-end stereo systems because
of the possible virus it will implant inside of me (must upgrade...
must upgrade...). But I will say this: the original magic that turned
me on to this hobby when I first hooked up this amp, with its dying
Mullard tubes, to my ProAc Super Tablettes is still there with the
modded amp. If anything, the amp today is much "clearer", revealing more
especially in the high frequencies than the original amp, and hence is
less "mellow" but my ears have gotten used to this (and it's probalby
more accurate anyway).

There are times when I am listening and when I get goosebumps... and
occasionally I find myself looking over my shoulder to see if my wife
has snuck up behind me... there's that hard-to-quantify magic that I've
never experienced with a SS amp that makes me want to listen more.

And then I hear that damned crackle and want to get the shotgun out.

I have seriously considered replacing it with another similarly powered
tube amp, perhaps a kit... especially when hunting for intermittents
gets to be no fun anymore. But I'm not quite there yet.

I appreciate all of the suggestions from everyone.

Leigh


cheers, Ian



--
Leigh Orf http://orf.cx
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
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Bob H. Bob H. is offline
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Posts: 118
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem


The right channel puts out a low-level quasi-random static/crackle
with a background "rushing" pinkish noise when the amp has been on for
a while. It comes and goes, but often persists once it starts. It is
especially maddening when I am listening to soft music. The quality of
the music does not seem to be affected by this problem - it's just there
in the background. Here is what I've done as far as troubleshooting
goes:



I know it's probably not wise to pull tubes while the amp is running but
the problem can take a long time to start after powering up!



If the problem doesn't show up for a while, it could be heat-related.
Also, a plate resistor could be shorting internally. This can happen
in old radios. Either replacing all the plate resistors, or listening
with a plastic tube can find it. Replacing them is easier.
Also, try swapping the bias pots between channels. Old pots can be a
problem. Sometimes they just go bad.
I just replaced them in my amp, since they aren't expensive.

Another thing which has gotten me, but is a longshot: check where the
transformer leads go through the chassis holes, and make sure you don't
have a partial short there. I had this happen once.


Bob H.

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Sander deWaal Sander deWaal is offline
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Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem

Bratwig said:


My guess is that China DOES make decent tubes....but for the most part
they stay in China, we get the off-fall. Some of the "boutique"
products, particularly the mesh plate triodes and such, seem to be
holding up fairly well, consistent with my theory that the older the
tube type the easier it is to manufacture well. In America you had
thirty or so separate tube companies manufacturing early receiving
tubes, some of which could easily be duplicated by any college science
department support shop today. It's later types like subminis,
Compactrons and Nuvistors that would be a double bitch to reproduce
today.



Rubbish.

They can make anything you want, as long as you specify how and what,
and are willing to buy it by the millions.

China is no longer a manufacturer of second-rate goods, it's about
time we take them seriously.
At the same time, we should be prepared to *pay* for good quality.
Most people don't want that, even in our tube community.
They just want $300 performance for $10.

Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.
Not even with products from China.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -
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Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
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Posts: 2,418
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem


Sander deWaal wrote:

They just want $300 performance for $10.

Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.
Not even with products from China.


Sander:

Sadly, even our tube community does not understand the market at all.
It is not so much the $10-to-get-$300 issue as the issue of 'if it
costs more, it must be better'. If North America is take as the
measuring point, something over 1/2 billion (yep, that many)
tube-consumer items were manufactured between 1923 and 1961 alone. This
would include radios, televisions, audio, baby monitors (Yep, baby
monitors since 1938), and so forth.

Trillions of tubes were manufactured, some still are being made. Good
US-made tubes are readily available here at prices that are pretty
piddly as compared to some of the things they go into. Common tubes are
sourced from China _because_ they are cheap. And the Chinese minimize
quality control because they can and still get paid enough to make a
profit. There are a few factories which do try harder and provide a
decent product... at prices approaching tubes sourced from elsewhere,
so the Chinese advantage is lost.

But Groove Tube and their ilk may continue to sell crap because they
have the price-point to do so, and because the Great Unwashed (now as
in the past) are brainwashed into believing that tubes wear much faster
than (at least good ones) actually do, and should be changed based on
intervals rather than actual performance or wear. And that behavior is
what supports the crap that comes out of China or anywhere else focused
on the price-point rather than actual peformance.

What's worse is the crappy sound that comes out of these tubes becomes
some sort of esoteric standard....

In a way similar to the emasculation of speakers in general. To the
point where there are many who believe that 'good sound' can come out
of a pair of computer speakers just because "Bose" or "Harmon Kardon"
or "Advent" is printed on them.

End rant.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

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Sander deWaal Sander deWaal is offline
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Posts: 1,141
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem

"Peter Wieck" said:

snip rant which, sadly, seems spot on

There are a few factories which do try harder and provide a
decent product... at prices approaching tubes sourced from elsewhere,
so the Chinese advantage is lost.



This is absolutely true, not only for tubes, but for many more
products.

There will always be a market for quality goods, and the Chinese are
able and even willing to make them.

We have to ask ourselves: are *we* willing to pay the right prices for
them?
Remember how much a single amplifier or receiver cost in 1970......


"The Great Unwashed"........you got that right.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -


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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Posts: 960
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem

Leigh wrote

Up to the point when it went awry, BTW, were all those mods
worthwhile?


The short answer is yes, I am very happy with the final sound of the
amp, although it has been plagued with intermittent noise of one
sort or
another since day one. This project has been a hobby as much as a
quest
to get decent affordable audio (I'm a ham radio operator / scientist
and
like getting the soldering iron out and building things).

The original amp had the usual problems you'd expect - even more
noise
from the 7199 tube sockets - so the driver board was the first to be
replaced. I forget exactly what motivated me to replace the power
supply
ciruitry. The power tube socket replacements was due to one of the
pins
breaking off due to my own incompetence (whoops) but in my own
defense
the original tabs were pretty flimsy. I figured "for symmetry" and
for
the hell of it I'd replace all four.

Long ago I decided that I was not going to be a bonifide audiophile
because it is too expensive and somewhat of a fool's errand where
infinitessimal improvements come at exponential prices, and in fact
I
go out of my way to avoid listening to high-end stereo systems
because
of the possible virus it will implant inside of me (must upgrade...
must upgrade...). But I will say this: the original magic that
turned
me on to this hobby when I first hooked up this amp, with its dying
Mullard tubes, to my ProAc Super Tablettes is still there with the
modded amp. If anything, the amp today is much "clearer", revealing
more
especially in the high frequencies than the original amp, and hence
is
less "mellow" but my ears have gotten used to this (and it's
probalby
more accurate anyway).

There are times when I am listening and when I get goosebumps... and
occasionally I find myself looking over my shoulder to see if my
wife
has snuck up behind me... there's that hard-to-quantify magic that
I've
never experienced with a SS amp that makes me want to listen more.

And then I hear that damned crackle and want to get the shotgun out.

I have seriously considered replacing it with another similarly
powered
tube amp, perhaps a kit... especially when hunting for intermittents
gets to be no fun anymore. But I'm not quite there yet.

I appreciate all of the suggestions from everyone.



Thanks, interesting.

Perhaps you could let us know what the problem was when you've found
it.

cheers, Ian



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[email protected] suea.pac@gmail.com is offline
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Posts: 10
Default Dynaco ST-70 noise problem

Peter Wieck wrote:
Sander deWaal wrote:

They just want $300 performance for $10.

Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.
Not even with products from China.


Sander:

Sadly, even our tube community does not understand the market at all.
It is not so much the $10-to-get-$300 issue as the issue of 'if it
costs more, it must be better'. If North America is take as the
measuring point, something over 1/2 billion (yep, that many)
tube-consumer items were manufactured between 1923 and 1961 alone. This
would include radios, televisions, audio, baby monitors (Yep, baby
monitors since 1938), and so forth.

Trillions of tubes were manufactured, some still are being made. Good
US-made tubes are readily available here at prices that are pretty
piddly as compared to some of the things they go into. Common tubes are
sourced from China _because_ they are cheap. And the Chinese minimize
quality control because they can and still get paid enough to make a
profit. There are a few factories which do try harder and provide a
decent product... at prices approaching tubes sourced from elsewhere,
so the Chinese advantage is lost.

But Groove Tube and their ilk may continue to sell crap because they
have the price-point to do so, and because the Great Unwashed (now as
in the past) are brainwashed into believing that tubes wear much faster
than (at least good ones) actually do, and should be changed based on
intervals rather than actual performance or wear. And that behavior is
what supports the crap that comes out of China or anywhere else focused
on the price-point rather than actual peformance.

What's worse is the crappy sound that comes out of these tubes becomes
some sort of esoteric standard....

In a way similar to the emasculation of speakers in general. To the
point where there are many who believe that 'good sound' can come out
of a pair of computer speakers just because "Bose" or "Harmon Kardon"
or "Advent" is printed on them.


Or worse yet... Altec Lansing! Hard to believe all that's left of it is
this plastic detritus....
Roger
Roger Anderson Assoc Ed Vacuum Tube Valley Magazine

End rant.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA


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