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#1
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
I currently drive approximately 200 miles a day for work. I am in my
car A LOT. As you can imagine, I am reaching the limits of my stock stereo system. I am looking to upgrade. Unfortunately, my budget is very slim, so I spend a lot of time on the 'net looking for the best bang for my buck. I have found these speakers: http://www.ubid.com/Kicker_S12L5_Sol...a10772383.html I am not overly concerned with the fact that they are "manufacturer refurbished". The 'manufacturer' is who made 'em in the first place! I am curious as to what can be refurbished on a speaker. What is everyone's opinion of Kicker? Flame away if necessary. It seems that these kicker subs seem to be on ubid.com quite often. Is this a sign of cheapness? Thanks in advance. I have only been lurking here for about a month, so please excuse me if I have made any errors in my post. bob z. p.s. what does SPL stand for? |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
I am not overly concerned with the fact that they are "manufacturer refurbished". The 'manufacturer' is who made 'em in the first place! I am curious as to what can be refurbished on a speaker. ok, i did a little more looking and i found within this newsgroup the opinion that being square is mostly a marketing ploy. what do you guys think of this being 'refurbished'? bob z. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
Captain Howdy wrote: SPL Sound Pressure Level Hope this helps. It sure does help. Thanks! I bet I chose correctly considering the newsgroup... :~) bob z. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
p.s. what does SPL stand for?
Shakespeare Programming Language 10 Thou Must Clearest Thy Screen 20 TO B OR NOT TO B 30 NEXT B MOSFET |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
ok, i did a little more looking and i found within this newsgroup the
opinion that being square is mostly a marketing ploy. Yes, the subject of Kicker's Square woofers has come up from time to time (along with Bazooka's triangle subs) and indeed, the consensus is that it has more to do with marketing than anything else. The ONLY exception to this being if you were going to design a solid wall of woofers (like for an SPL vehicle). Obviously with a square woofer, you would be able to squeeze them together more effectively (more total cone area over a given area) than round woofers. But that's the ONLY benefit I see. That being said, I do think the Kicker L7's are damn good subwoofers, square or not. MOSFET |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
"That being said, I do think the Kicker L7's are damn good subwoofers,
square or not." I have also heard this about the L7s. I think I learned it in my Short Portuguese Lessons! LOL Bobzee, your link didn't work. Refurbed speakers are not something I would personally buy, but you might have good luck with them. Is there a warranty? How much are they? You might have better luck buying new or even used on eBay. I see they have a ton of L5s for sale. Tony -- 2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1 Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub 2001 Chevy S10 ZR2 Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub 2006 Mustang GT Coupe Alpine IVA-D310 DVD Head Unit, Alpine MRA-550 Digital 5.1 Amp, Boston Acoustics Z-Series Speakers, Alpine SBS-05DC Center Channel Speaker, Amplified MTX Thunderform Sub |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
Tony F wrote: Bobzee, your link didn't work. Refurbed speakers are not something I would personally buy, but you might have good luck with them. Is there a warranty? How much are they? You might have better luck buying new or even used on eBay. I see they have a ton of L5s for sale. Tony there is a 90 day warranty. this might be easier: www.ubid.com and click on car audio and then subwoofers ubid seems to have fairly decent deals, but you gotta check that shipping cost! typical bid or buy it now. the 'buy it now' is $79 each bob z. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
(more total cone
area over a given area) than round woofers. That's the hype I always heard about em, a 12" round sub would have pi*6Č = 36pi = about 113 inČ of area.. A 12" square sub would have 144 inČ, so it can push more air, thereby being that much more effective.. Kicker is a great name, I'm still running 2 Kicker amps from the 90's and they still work perfectly. I woudln't be afraid of factory refurbished gear either, even without a warranty, especially Kicker gear, which I would expect to last plenty long anyway. One of my friends had a 10" L7 sub once, it was very impressive for being a single 10 IMO. Can't say about the L5, but I'd expect it to be pretty damn good, |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
What is the warranty on the same non refurbished speaker? If it's something
like a year then avoid the refurbished ones at all cost. high end woofers get refurbished all the time, but Im not sure what kind of effort goes into refurbishing car audio woofers that the factory sells to wholesalers for $20. there is a 90 day warranty. this might be easier: www.ubid.com and click on car audio and then subwoofers ubid seems to have fairly decent deals, but you gotta check that shipping cost! typical bid or buy it now. the 'buy it now' is $79 each bob z. |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
''its hip to be square''...lol
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
area over a given area) than round woofers.
That's the hype I always heard about em, Hype? What I said wasn't hype, it was common sense. I'll make this simple. Ever make cookies in your life? You roll out the dough so it's flat. Then you cut out your cookies with a round cookie cutter. You WILL find that you have lots of dough left over. This left over dough represents space on a large subwoofer baffle (like on SPL vehicles) that COULD have been used for cone area. Now do the same thing but cut the cookies square. You will have a lot less leftover dough. MOSFET |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
MOSFET wrote:
area over a given area) than round woofers. That's the hype I always heard about em, Hype? What I said wasn't hype, it was common sense. I'll make this simple. Ever make cookies in your life? You roll out the dough so it's flat. Then you cut out your cookies with a round cookie cutter. You WILL find that you have lots of dough left over. This left over dough represents space on a large subwoofer baffle (like on SPL vehicles) that COULD have been used for cone area. Now do the same thing but cut the cookies square. You will have a lot less leftover dough. Except cookies don't have to worry about distortion-free excursion. Yes, IN THEORY a square sub is a more efficient design, but to be accurate, the whole thing has to move in and out evenly, and that's a lot trickier with a square design. Not saying it can't be done, just that it's not as easy as with a round design (although the increased surface area does let you get away with less excursion needed to move the same amount of air). Basically it comes down to, if it really was that much better, everyone would be doing it, and round subs would have vanished long ago. |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
your thinking is sound Matt. The square kicker subs have pretty good SPL but have an equal lack in sound quality. It sounds like you would want at least an equal amount of SQ from the way you talk, and if so I'd stay away from kicker subs in general. They are designed and marketed for the teenage basshead. What exactly is your price range? ID (Image Dynamics) make some great SQ-oriented woofers, and I think you can find them relatively cheap on ebay or such. -- KU40 |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
Except cookies don't have to worry about distortion-free excursion. Yes,
IN THEORY a square sub is a more efficient design, but to be accurate, the whole thing has to move in and out evenly, and that's a lot trickier with a square design. Not saying it can't be done, just that it's not as easy as with a round design Good point, Matt. I'm sure a cone shape that matches the shape of the voice-coil/former (which is pretty much ALWAYS round) is the best design for optimum linearity. I was thinking strictly about cone area over a given large baffle space. MOSFET |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
a sq sub is nothing but a round sub with lil corners made to it...lol
can you understand the words coming outa my mouth?????? lol...... |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
MOSFET wrote:
Good point, Matt. I'm sure a cone shape that matches the shape of the voice-coil/former (which is pretty much ALWAYS round) is the best design for optimum linearity. Nothing to do with the voice coil shape - it's the surround where you run into problems, specifically, in the corners. The further the sub moves, the more the corner suspension/surround will have to stretch LINEARLY to accomodate. |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
bob wald wrote:
a sq sub is nothing but a round sub with lil corners made to it...lol can you understand the words coming outa my mouth?????? lol...... Nobody understands you, bob, since you continually talk out of your ass. |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
what cant you understand about that post? are you mentally
challenged????? |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
matt matt matt, so i think car audio should be fun..is that so bad????
i laugh so hard at you group of audio experts figuring out your complex audio problems.lol dont make it harder than it is. its not rocket science.lol only 2 rules to car audio..1. over power everything 20%. 2. slowly try out your eqiupment. dont start out playing it above 90% of full power...leave it around 84% of power mostly..never above 92% of total power..... end of my car audio class.. you are now ready for the world.lol more equipment has been ruined playing too loud compared to wrong install..4 to 1 i think... |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
Nothing to do with the voice coil shape - it's the surround where you run
into problems, specifically, in the corners. The further the sub moves, the more the corner suspension/surround will have to stretch LINEARLY to accomodate. That's interesting, but I'm a bit unclear what you mean. Why would the corner of a square sub have more difficulty stretching linearly than any other part of the surround? I'm trying to imagine why this is the case, but I'm not seeing it in my head. I guess part of the reason is that, of course, I've seen the L7 and know that it has elbow like joints in the surround corners that provide excellent extension. Does the issue revolve around the cone twisting (a bit) due to the flexibility of those corners (while a round cone would remain perfectly linear)? MOSFET |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
MOSFET wrote:
Nothing to do with the voice coil shape - it's the surround where you run into problems, specifically, in the corners. The further the sub moves, the more the corner suspension/surround will have to stretch LINEARLY to accomodate. That's interesting, but I'm a bit unclear what you mean. Why would the corner of a square sub have more difficulty stretching linearly than any other part of the surround? I'm trying to imagine why this is the case, but I'm not seeing it in my head. I guess part of the reason is that, of course, I've seen the L7 and know that it has elbow like joints in the surround corners that provide excellent extension. Does the issue revolve around the cone twisting (a bit) due to the flexibility of those corners (while a round cone would remain perfectly linear)? Consider that the distance from the cone edge to the basket edge - the area filled by the surround, which of course forms part of the suspension - remains the same all the way around a round cone, as it does along the straight edges of a square "cone" (a misnomer in itself, but that's not important right now). In the same travel, the distance from the corner of a square cone to the corner of the surround will increase by a larger amount - simple geometry. Rounded corners would reduce the effect, but it's still there - as your put a larger radius on the corners, you'd find the effect reducing until you ended up with a round cone again. I haven't seen the "elbow" corners on an L7, but again, they'd have to react differently than the rest of the surround to accomodate the difference in extension... and again, you get anomalies in the sound. |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
I haven't seen the "elbow" corners on an L7, but again, they'd have to
react differently than the rest of the surround to accomodate the difference in extension... and again, you get anomalies in the sound. Yes, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Nick |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
this is the reason there are the little support bars in the corners now. The first generation L7's had a terrible time with the corners of the surround ripping. it's just a poor design from a durability standpoint, plain and simple. -- KU40 |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
Sorry everyone, but I'm just not buying the whole "L7s aren't good SQ
woofers because they have square corners". There's tons of round woofers out there that aren't good SQ woofers, and they don't have square corners. I'm not saying one way or another that the square Kickers are more SPL oriented vs. SQ oriented, I'm just not hearing a very convincing argument, nor being provided with any sound data, that being square means not sounding as good. What I'd be interested in discussing and reading about, is what makes a woofer an SQ woofer vs. an SPL one. I believe that the classification of a square woofer as being one or the other lies in other manufacturing areas, and not as much as its shape. Just my .02. Tony |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
Tony, the L7 IS an excellent subwoofer. And it kicks the butts of MANY
round woofers. But I think the point Matt was making was that because of the geometry involved, it is more difficult to keep a square cone linear due to the fact that you have more cone (in a sense) towards the corners (greater distance from the center of the cone to the corners) than the sides and therefore more cone must be moved up and down at the corners than at the sides. With a round sub, there is equal distance from the center of the cone to the surround, so you don't have this anomaly. I think that is what Matt was saying and that does make sense to me. That DOES NOT mean a square cone can't sound good. It is simply more difficult due to the geometry of it. Nick "Tony F" wrote in message ... Sorry everyone, but I'm just not buying the whole "L7s aren't good SQ woofers because they have square corners". There's tons of round woofers out there that aren't good SQ woofers, and they don't have square corners. I'm not saying one way or another that the square Kickers are more SPL oriented vs. SQ oriented, I'm just not hearing a very convincing argument, nor being provided with any sound data, that being square means not sounding as good. What I'd be interested in discussing and reading about, is what makes a woofer an SQ woofer vs. an SPL one. I believe that the classification of a square woofer as being one or the other lies in other manufacturing areas, and not as much as its shape. Just my .02. Tony |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
MOSFET wrote:
Tony, the L7 IS an excellent subwoofer. And it kicks the butts of MANY round woofers. But I think the point Matt was making was that because of the geometry involved, it is more difficult to keep a square cone linear due to the fact that you have more cone (in a sense) towards the corners (greater distance from the center of the cone to the corners) than the sides and therefore more cone must be moved up and down at the corners than at the sides. With a round sub, there is equal distance from the center of the cone to the surround, so you don't have this anomaly. I think that is what Matt was saying and that does make sense to me. That DOES NOT mean a square cone can't sound good. It is simply more difficult due to the geometry of it. Exactly. Like I said, if the concept was all that much better, don't you think everyone would be making square speakers? |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
Square drivers are just the opposite approach of high xmax in the linear displacement equation. While a square driver may not be able to travel as far while remaining linear as a circular speaker can, a square driver also does not have to. As long as the suspension can handle the travel appropriately, there is nothing about a square driver that will prevent it from sounding good. Neil -- DevilDriver |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
Captain Howdy wrote:
What is the warranty on the same non refurbished speaker? If it's something like a year then avoid the refurbished ones at all cost. high end woofers get refurbished all the time, but Im not sure what kind of effort goes into refurbishing car audio woofers that the factory sells to wholesalers for $20. I mentioned that I wouldn't care about the warranty, but I might be jumping the gun a little.. Maybe.. I haven't ever blown a sub in 15 or so years, I think I've owned 5 boxes in that time: MTX, MTX, RF, Kicker, and JL. The early stuff came from stores, the recent stuff is all off ebay. No refurbished stuff. If refurbished subs have a significantly higher fail rate than new ones, then maybe it'd be wise to avoid em. Basically, the price difference has to be enough to cover the difference in fail rate. I HAVE blown some cheap crap amps, like pyramid/rockwood in my early stupid days when I was dumb and didn't konw the difference.. But he's talking about Kickers here, a company I have very high regards for.. I've transplanted the same 2 kicker amps from car to car for maybe 10 years and 4 cars. It's like when I bought a $500 video camera at best buy, I declined the optional 3 yr warranty for $100. If I bought 5 of them, I could save the $500 and just buy a new one if one broke. If the camera's fail rate is higher than 20% in 3 years, then you should get the warranty... Otherwise it's a waste of $$.. I may be wrong, maybe lucky, but IME warranties are almost always a waste of $$. Same thing applies for buying cheap gear off ebay, or refurbished gear, etc.. vs new stuff from a retail outlet. |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.car
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kicker square sub
refurbished subs should not have a higher fail rate. they are basically a brand new sub, because during a refurbish the manuf. replaces all of the soft parts (aka everything that moves), so pretty much everything that could break is new. it's like rebuilding a car from the original frame. -- KU40 |
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