[adam79]

I've recently been looking at NOS Tubes, especially 12ax7. There are a
disheartening amount of forgery with these items, especially on eBay. Is
there a safe, or safer place to shop for NOS tubes on the internet? In
an ideal situation, I'd rather buy them locally, but haven't had much
luck finding any sellers in the Boston area (as well as the North Shore
of MA). Anyone live in this area and have any suggestions?

Anyways, I came across some NOS Mullard 12ax7 on eBay that have held up
very well in the logo/etching department. The seller comments that "The
silkscreen (for these Mullards) was done in post-production for better
clarity and water-proofing." Was this common practice with certain
Mullards (This is the first time I've ever heard some mention this
silkscreen method)? Here's a picture of the tubes:
http://members.toast.net/adam79/Mullard12ax7.png. I've been searching
for articles about "how to spot fake tube," but there a so many it's
overwhelming! I wanted to ask for your opinions on which are better than
others.

I'm focusing on the 12ax7 tube because I want to replace the preamp
tubes in my Peavey VTM-120 (which you might have deduced takes 12ax7s).
Some people have advised me against using 12at7, 7025 and other tubes
close to (if not in) the 12ax7 family. Most of the people I've talked to
said that it isn't a problem, does no harm to the amp and in some cases
improves the sound! Any opinions on this? On the official Peavey forum,
the current production Shuguang 12ax7 get high praise (especially as a
tube that works well with all Peavey amps in general). The current
production Tung Sol also get alot of positive comments. I currently have
all of the original stock tubes in my VTM-120. I believe the stock
output tubes are Sylvania/Philips 6L6GC, re-branded for Peavey; the
preamp tubes are Super 7s re-branded for Peavey (not sure of the
original maker). I bought the amp about 5-6 years ago from a guy who had
it gathering dust in his garage for a long while. I haven't put many
hours on the tubes since I've owned it; He didn't put on many either. I
love the sound of the amp, but a couple of the Super 7s need to be
replaced; I'm not a big fan of that tube anyways.

I love the amp for it's extremely heavy sound, although the cleans could
be better.. With no gain switch, the amp give you two options. Plug into
the hi input and lower the guitar's volume for the clean parts, or plug
into the low input and use a distortion pedal. Since I love the natural
distortion of this amp (it's what it was made for) I wouldn't want to go
the latter route.

Thanks,
-Adam

[Jay Ts[_2_]]

adam79 wrote:
I've recently been looking at NOS Tubes, especially 12ax7. There are a
disheartening amount of forgery with these items, especially on eBay.

I would generally advise against buying any kind of electronic
component on eBay for this and other reasons.

Even if the information in the listing is factual, you may
just be buying someone else's rejects.

Is
there a safe, or safer place to shop for NOS tubes on the internet?

It's been a long time, but I was very happy with my dealings with
these two companies:

Antique Electronic Supply, Tempe, Arizona:
http://www.tubesandmore.com/

Triode Electronics, Chicago
http://triodeelectronics.com/index.html

Back when their front door was open to the public, I visited
Antique Electronics and bought from them. A bunch of good guys,
in my opinion. Very good to deal with.

Same for Triode, although I only dealt with them through the
Internet.

Both companies have a page that lists their 12ax7 tubes:

http://triodeelectronics.com/12axec7057.html
http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/...s/elevclients/
cemirror/ELEVATOR.FXP?SEARCH_KEYWORD=SP_12AX7

I suggest you forget about NOS tubes and focus on models
that are in current production.

Both sell JJ ECC83 and ECC803. I think these are your first
choices, and from there, if you want to experiment with other
manufacturers and models, go right ahead.

I got my box of 12ax7's out and looked to see what I have.
My JJ 12ax7 is the ECC83 model, with the short plate. After
the Ei 12ax7, it was my next favorite, and the JJ ECC803 looks
almost identical to one of the Ei 12ax7/ECC83's that I have.
Scott Dorsey said that the Ei factory is making tubes for JJ --
maybe this is the one(??).

Some people have advised me against using 12at7, 7025 and other tubes
close to (if not in) the 12ax7 family. Most of the people I've talked to
said that it isn't a problem, does no harm to the amp and in some cases
improves the sound! Any opinions on this?

If you want to try other pin-compatible, dual-triode tubes,
go ahead. I really can't imagine they could cause any damage.
We're not talking about anything with silicon here, and
pure-tube amplifiers are difficult to damage. As a disclaimer,
no, I won't buy you a new amp if you break it. ;-) I'm just
telling you what I would have no reservation trying myself.
Before plugging it in, find a datasheet for the tube, and make
sure it is a a pin-compatible, dual triode, and has about
the same specs (like, "absolute maximum ratings" ;-).

Whether you get an improvement to your sound or not is
entirely your own opinion. This sort of modification or
selection is more about art than engineering.

The current production Tung Sol also get alot of positive
comments. I currently have all of the original stock tubes
in my VTM-120.

I haven't tried any of the Chinese tubes. EveAnna Manley steered
me away from them, saying that they didn't last very long in her
hi-fi designs (they died with a bright flash when first powered
up, or something like that). That was 13 years ago, so maybe they
have improved. In your amp, which probably has a much lower
plate voltage, they might be fine.

I love the amp for it's extremely heavy sound, although the
cleans could be better..

That might be a reason to try out 12au7's or 12at7's. I forget,
but it seems some people like one or the other because it has
a lower gain than the 12ax7. This sometimes results in a better
"clean" sound. But you will be giving up something on the crunchy,
distorted sounds -- in general, you can't have both. My memory is
fuzzy here ... it was 13 years ago that I was learning about them.
I think you will have to try it yourself to see what you like.

If you haven't found it yet, this webpage may be helpful:

http://thetubestore.com/gainfactor.html

Jay Ts

[Mike Rivers]

On 11/27/2010 1:08 AM, adam79 wrote:
I've recently been looking at NOS Tubes, especially 12ax7.
There are a disheartening amount of forgery with these
items, especially on eBay. Is there a safe, or safer place
to shop for NOS tubes on the internet? In an ideal
situation, I'd rather buy them locally, but haven't had much
luck finding any sellers in the Boston area (as well as the
North Shore of MA).

Hamfests, or the MIT Flea Market. Go to
http://www.arrl.org/hamfests/search and search for
Massachusetts. At least there you'll be seeing what you're
buying and who you're buying it from, and most of the
sellers have some knowledge of what they're selling and
aren't there to rip people off.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[adam79[_3_]]

On Nov 27, 7:12*am, Jay Ts wrote:

Both sell JJ ECC83 and ECC803. I think these are your first
choices, and from there, if you want to experiment with other
manufacturers and models, go right ahead.

I got my box of 12ax7's out and looked to see what I have.
My JJ 12ax7 is the ECC83 model, with the short plate. After
the Ei 12ax7, it was my next favorite, and the JJ ECC803 looks
almost identical to one of the Ei 12ax7/ECC83's that I have.
Scott Dorsey said that the Ei factory is making tubes for JJ --
maybe this is the one(??).


The JJ ECC803S seems like something I'd like to try. The Telefunken
ECC8035S is on the top of my "NOS tubes I want to try" list. That, the
Mullard 10M 7025 and the Mullard 12ax7 long plate/small round getter/
single support. Since all these of these tubes sell for $200+, I don't
see myself realistically owning one! according to the Triode site, the
JJs are "near exact copies." It's cheap enough to give it a shot.

Thanks,
-Adam

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 01:08:44 -0500, adam79 wrote
(in article ):

I've recently been looking at NOS Tubes, especially 12ax7. There are a
disheartening amount of forgery with these items, especially on eBay. Is
there a safe, or safer place to shop for NOS tubes on the internet? In

Why NOS?

http://www.groovetubes.com/preamplist.html

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Scott Dorsey]

adam79 wrote:
I've recently been looking at NOS Tubes, especially 12ax7. There are a
disheartening amount of forgery with these items, especially on eBay. Is
there a safe, or safer place to shop for NOS tubes on the internet? In
an ideal situation, I'd rather buy them locally, but haven't had much
luck finding any sellers in the Boston area (as well as the North Shore
of MA). Anyone live in this area and have any suggestions?

There are a lot of legitimate brokers out there. Try Triode Electronics
in Chicago, or Antique Electronics Supply in Arizona. What is on their
websites may not be complete so you may have to pick up the phone and talk
to them.

Anyways, I came across some NOS Mullard 12ax7 on eBay that have held up
very well in the logo/etching department. The seller comments that "The
silkscreen (for these Mullards) was done in post-production for better
clarity and water-proofing." Was this common practice with certain
Mullards (This is the first time I've ever heard some mention this
silkscreen method)? Here's a picture of the tubes:
http://members.toast.net/adam79/Mullard12ax7.png. I've been searching
for articles about "how to spot fake tube," but there a so many it's
overwhelming! I wanted to ask for your opinions on which are better than
others.

As far as I know, waterproof non-scratch-off silkscreening is a modern
addition and you'll never see it on any tube made before around 1990 or so.
Certainly RCA or GE never did it.

The vast majority of desirable tubes on Ebay are fake. Hell, the vast
majority of "NOS" desirable tubes out there in general are fake.

I was at a hamfest a couple years ago where one of the tube dealers was
selling 807s that had "MADE IN USA" silkscreened on them. Someone asked
if it was actually made in the US, and he replied, "No, it's Chinese,
they just stamp that crap on them." So there are at least honest folks
out there.

I'm focusing on the 12ax7 tube because I want to replace the preamp
tubes in my Peavey VTM-120 (which you might have deduced takes 12ax7s).
Some people have advised me against using 12at7, 7025 and other tubes
close to (if not in) the 12ax7 family. Most of the people I've talked to
said that it isn't a problem, does no harm to the amp and in some cases
improves the sound! Any opinions on this?

The 12AT7 has the same pinout but it is a totally different tube. The
gain is lower, and the bias point is different. So if you put it in a
circuit designed to be clean and linear for a 12AX7, it will not be clean
and linear any more. What happens if you put it in a guitar amp will not
be predictable but it will not sound the way the manufacturers intended.

On the official Peavey forum,
the current production Shuguang 12ax7 get high praise (especially as a
tube that works well with all Peavey amps in general). The current
production Tung Sol also get alot of positive comments. I currently have
all of the original stock tubes in my VTM-120. I believe the stock
output tubes are Sylvania/Philips 6L6GC, re-branded for Peavey; the
preamp tubes are Super 7s re-branded for Peavey (not sure of the
original maker). I bought the amp about 5-6 years ago from a guy who had
it gathering dust in his garage for a long while. I haven't put many
hours on the tubes since I've owned it; He didn't put on many either. I
love the sound of the amp, but a couple of the Super 7s need to be
replaced; I'm not a big fan of that tube anyways.

The Shugang production is getting better but they are still pretty awful
and they don't have baking or cleanliness down. Just buy a couple JJs
and see for yourself if you like them; the're only a few bucks.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jay Ts[_2_]]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 05:28:47 -0800, adam79 wrote:

On Nov 27, 7:12Â*am, Jay Ts wrote:

Both sell JJ ECC83 and ECC803. I think these are your first choices,
and from there, if you want to experiment with other manufacturers and
models, go right ahead.

I got my box of 12ax7's out and looked to see what I have. My JJ 12ax7
is the ECC83 model, with the short plate. After the Ei 12ax7, it was my
next favorite, and the JJ ECC803 looks almost identical to one of the
Ei 12ax7/ECC83's that I have. Scott Dorsey said that the Ei factory is
making tubes for JJ -- maybe this is the one(??).


The JJ ECC803S seems like something I'd like to try. The Telefunken
ECC8035S is on the top of my "NOS tubes I want to try" list. That, the
Mullard 10M 7025 and the Mullard 12ax7 long plate/small round getter/
single support. Since all these of these tubes sell for $200+, I don't
see myself realistically owning one! according to the Triode site, the
JJs are "near exact copies." It's cheap enough to give it a shot.

I heard from what I consider a reliable source that Ei was
supplying tubes to Telefunken in the day, and that the Ei 12ax7
was from the same assembly line as Telefunken "diamond" tubes
that people used to rave about. It was a long time ago, so I
hope I'm being vague enough to be accurate. ;-)

Anyway, I got some and was very happy. They were just $8
from Triode Electronics at the time, as compared to $75
and up NOS or used "diamond" Telefunkens on eBay and
various websites.

Just now, I took another look at the Triode Electronics site, and
I'm confused. They say, "Tesla/JJ 12AX7/ECC83 These are near
exact copies of exotic and rare Telefunken ECC803s." However,
the picture looks like my Tesla/JJ 12ax7/ECC83 that I got 13
years ago, not an Ei 12ax7 at all.

The Tesla/JJ 12ax7/ECC803 **does** look like my Ei tubes, but
they don't say much of anything special about it. If it were
me, I would call them and ask for clarification. Maybe they
got their photos mixed up or something.... who know?

I wrote earlier that I thought maybe I could verify if a 12ax7
was made by Ei by examining its construction. Since then, I
looked at the tubes I have here and realized that:

1) I have two slightly different models of Ei 12ax7, and they
appear to have slightly different construction.

2) Other manufacturers make/made 12ax7's that from the outside
look like the Ei models I have.

So I can't tell anything conclusive from looking at the photos
I'm seeing online.

Jay Ts

[Mike Rivers]

On 11/27/2010 2:37 PM, Jay Ts wrote:

I heard from what I consider a reliable source that Ei was
supplying tubes to Telefunken in the day

Did you meet your reliable source in the Telefunken
purchasing department? Or is this something you read on the
Internet?

Anyway, I got some and was very happy.

Excellent! So why worry about the company history? The
trick, though, will be to get some five or ten years from
now and still find them to be excellent.

Just now, I took another look at the Triode Electronics site, and
I'm confused. They say, "Tesla/JJ 12AX7/ECC83 These are near
exact copies of exotic and rare Telefunken ECC803s." However,
the picture looks like my Tesla/JJ 12ax7/ECC83 that I got 13
years ago, not an Ei 12ax7 at all.

Maybe they didn't use a picture of what you have. To most of
their customers, tubes look like tubes.

I wrote earlier that I thought maybe I could verify if a 12ax7
was made by Ei by examining its construction. Since then, I
looked at the tubes I have here and realized that:

1) I have two slightly different models of Ei 12ax7, and they
appear to have slightly different construction.

That's not surprising.


2) Other manufacturers make/made 12ax7's that from the outside
look like the Ei models I have.

That's also not surprising

So I can't tell anything conclusive from looking at the photos
I'm seeing online.

So start taking your tubes apart. Contribute to the wisdom
by photographing the components as you disassemble the tube.
Maybe your work will help out another nut like yourself. g

I think that you'll find, if you try enough tubes that you
believe to be the same is that they aren't, and that any net
wisdom about a particular brand of 12AX7 having a special
sound is based on too small a sample. How many of those
making recommendations have tried 100 tubes in about 5
amplifiers and really managed to keep the observations straight?



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Scott Dorsey]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 11/27/2010 2:37 PM, Jay Ts wrote:

I heard from what I consider a reliable source that Ei was
supplying tubes to Telefunken in the day

Did you meet your reliable source in the Telefunken
purchasing department? Or is this something you read on the
Internet?

Back in the day, everybody was supplying tubes to everybody else, because
there were so many different kinds of tubes available.

If you bought an 11BT11 compactron tube from your local RCA replacement
tube dealer, it was actually a GE tube that was rebadged for RCA retail
sales. RCA never made an 11BT11, and they never showed up in RCA TV set
chassis. Likewise if you bought a replacement 6CW4 from an GE shop, it
was a rebadged RCA. And if you bought anything from Radio Shack it was
a rebadge from somewhere else.

So, I can well believe that Ei might have been selling some tubes to
Telefunken, but since this was back in the day when the Telefunken
catalogue had several hundred tubes in just the power tube section,
knowing precisely which tube or tubes it was is necessary to know any
of the real story.

Anyway, I got some and was very happy.

Excellent! So why worry about the company history? The
trick, though, will be to get some five or ten years from
now and still find them to be excellent.

Precisely. That basically is the key... find something you are happy with
and stock up on it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jay Ts[_2_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
Jay Ts wrote:

I heard from what I consider a reliable source that Ei was supplying
tubes to Telefunken in the day

Did you meet your reliable source in the Telefunken purchasing
department? Or is this something you read on the Internet?

No. It was a tip from EveAnna Manley, who had recently visited the Ei
factory and talked to people there.

It was in a private email, so I hope that it's ok with her
to reveal this 13 years later, after the specific product
was discontinued.

2) Other manufacturers make/made 12ax7's that from the outside
look like the Ei models I have.

That's also not surprising

So I can't tell anything conclusive from looking at the photos I'm
seeing online.

So start taking your tubes apart. Contribute to the wisdom by
photographing the components as you disassemble the tube.

I've been thinking about doing that. It will have to wait until
I have a chance to focus on it, but hopefully it won't be too
difficult, and may provide valuable results.

I think that you'll find, if you try enough tubes that you believe to be
the same is that they aren't, and that any net wisdom about a particular
brand of 12AX7 having a special sound is based on too small a sample.
How many of those making recommendations have tried 100 tubes in about 5
amplifiers and really managed to keep the observations straight?

I agree with this and have considered it over a long period of time.

I don't have 100 tubes of any particular model, so I can't do
that kind of test, either. In other technologies, namely germanium
and field effect transtors, there are huge variations from device
to device. I think I read somewhere that tubes have a lot less
variation, but I don't know.

The few Ei 12ax7's that I tried all sounded about the same, and
different from other types. Sovteks seems to sound similar, even
with slightly different 12ax7 models. I don't know how much of that
is my imagination, how much can be shown with a spectral plot, and
how much is simply indeterminable either with methods I know how
to use, or have been developed at this time.

Jay Ts

[Zvonimir Ervacic]

Dana 27 Nov 2010 19:37:26 GMT,
umjetnik/ca Jay Ts je napisao/la...
I heard from what I consider a reliable source that Ei was
supplying tubes to Telefunken in the day, and that the Ei 12ax7
was from the same assembly line as Telefunken "diamond" tubes
that people used to rave about. It was a long time ago, so I
hope I'm being vague enough to be accurate. ;-)

So far I know EI newer supply Telefunken with tubes. Connection between
Telefunken and EI were that Telefunken sold all machinery for tubes
manufacturing to EI after they discontinue production. So EI had
Telefunken tools but were using different parts material.
I have NOS Telefunken ECC803s and ECC802s and have some EI tubes too.
Construction is different so whatever EI were doing it was not
Telefunken replica.
EI were supplying Siemens with some tubes after Siemens stop
manufacturinf tubes. Siemens were using EI, Russian and Chinese tubes,
whatever they could find chip. Old Siemens tubes were in range of
Telefunken quality.

Just now, I took another look at the Triode Electronics site, and
I'm confused. They say, "Tesla/JJ 12AX7/ECC83 These are near
exact copies of exotic and rare Telefunken ECC803s." However,
the picture looks like my Tesla/JJ 12ax7/ECC83 that I got 13
years ago, not an Ei 12ax7 at all.

I really doubt Tesla use same material and production technique as was
Telefunken.
If you want Telefunken NOS than buy Telefunken NOS. If you don't care
about print on tube but looking for the best sound than buy all tubes
available, use the best you like and sale the rest. :-)

1) I have two slightly different models of Ei 12ax7, and they
appear to have slightly different construction.

2) Other manufacturers make/made 12ax7's that from the outside
look like the Ei models I have.

I think I had 3 or 4 different EI ECC83. EI never had luxury to chose
material they will use. They were always using what is available on
market.