trotsky a écrit :
http://www.jupiter-audio.com


And be brutally honest.

Except some good but too much "politically correct" critics I read
around, most of these guys are ****in' hypocrits.

FIRST OF ALL :
Do you seriously thing that potential customers will paid 1,600 bucks
for loudspeakers that have been manufactured in your kitchen ?
Please believe me, sweep out these pictures of you manufacturing your
product !

1. You're web site looks very good.
2. Europa looks good but not more than 100 other loudspeakers.
3. Subterfuge is horrible.
4. Your way of marketing is not good.
5. You don't seems to have a real sales policy
6. General feeling is : amateur packed in a professional box

I suggest you to pay more for a more attractive marketing content.

You ask brutally so I do.
You're for business not for my pleasure. I don't care you don't like me.

Sincerely,
Lionel

PS : under this light lets have a look to my previous posts.

Lionel Chapuis lionel{dot}chapuis{at}free{dot}fr wrote in message ...
trotsky a écrit :
http://www.jupiter-audio.com


And be brutally honest.

Except some good but too much "politically correct" critics I read
around, most of these guys are ****in' hypocrits.

FIRST OF ALL :
Do you seriously thing that potential customers will paid 1,600 bucks
for loudspeakers that have been manufactured in your kitchen ?
Please believe me, sweep out these pictures of you manufacturing your
product !

1. You're web site looks very good.
2. Europa looks good but not more than 100 other loudspeakers.
3. Subterfuge is horrible.
4. Your way of marketing is not good.
5. You don't seems to have a real sales policy
6. General feeling is : amateur packed in a professional box

I suggest you to pay more for a more attractive marketing content.

You ask brutally so I do.
You're for business not for my pleasure. I don't care you don't like me.

Sincerely,
Lionel

PS : under this light lets have a look to my previous posts.


Why don't you mention that even when buying through Madisound, his
$1350 pair of speakers have at most about $100 worth of drivers in
them.

ScottW

On 3 Sep 2003 12:20:14 -0700, (ScottW) wrote:

Lionel Chapuis lionel{dot}chapuis{at}free{dot}fr wrote in message ...
trotsky a écrit :
http://www.jupiter-audio.com


And be brutally honest.

Except some good but too much "politically correct" critics I read
around, most of these guys are ****in' hypocrits.

FIRST OF ALL :
Do you seriously thing that potential customers will paid 1,600 bucks
for loudspeakers that have been manufactured in your kitchen ?
Please believe me, sweep out these pictures of you manufacturing your
product !

1. You're web site looks very good.
2. Europa looks good but not more than 100 other loudspeakers.
3. Subterfuge is horrible.
4. Your way of marketing is not good.
5. You don't seems to have a real sales policy
6. General feeling is : amateur packed in a professional box

I suggest you to pay more for a more attractive marketing content.

You ask brutally so I do.
You're for business not for my pleasure. I don't care you don't like me.

Sincerely,
Lionel

PS : under this light lets have a look to my previous posts.


Why don't you mention that even when buying through Madisound, his
$1350 pair of speakers have at most about $100 worth of drivers in
them.

ScottW

Probably because it's fairly irrelevant.

dave weil said:

Why don't you mention that even when buying through Madisound, his
$1350 pair of speakers have at most about $100 worth of drivers in
them.

Probably because it's fairly irrelevant.

Is that Scottieborg, back to trolling RAO with his cheapism crapola?

Let's see a full accounting of all the components. How much did they
spend on wood for the cabinets? And the stands, with or without sand
in the legs. And the electricity needed used by the photographer to
take those pictures.

Everybody "knows" as well as Scottieborg does that a recipe is a
recipe. Once it's perfected, it has no value.

ScottW wrote:
Lionel Chapuis lionel{dot}chapuis{at}free{dot}fr wrote in message ...

trotsky a écrit :

http://www.jupiter-audio.com


And be brutally honest.


Except some good but too much "politically correct" critics I read
around, most of these guys are ****in' hypocrits.

FIRST OF ALL :
Do you seriously thing that potential customers will paid 1,600 bucks
for loudspeakers that have been manufactured in your kitchen ?
Please believe me, sweep out these pictures of you manufacturing your
product !

1. You're web site looks very good.
2. Europa looks good but not more than 100 other loudspeakers.
3. Subterfuge is horrible.
4. Your way of marketing is not good.
5. You don't seems to have a real sales policy
6. General feeling is : amateur packed in a professional box

I suggest you to pay more for a more attractive marketing content.

You ask brutally so I do.
You're for business not for my pleasure. I don't care you don't like me.

Sincerely,
Lionel

PS : under this light lets have a look to my previous posts.



Why don't you mention that even when buying through Madisound, his
$1350 pair of speakers have at most about $100 worth of drivers in
them.


Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?

trotsky a écrit :


ScottW wrote:

Lionel Chapuis lionel{dot}chapuis{at}free{dot}fr wrote in message
...

trotsky a écrit :

http://www.jupiter-audio.com


And be brutally honest.


Except some good but too much "politically correct" critics I read
around, most of these guys are ****in' hypocrits.

FIRST OF ALL :
Do you seriously thing that potential customers will paid 1,600 bucks
for loudspeakers that have been manufactured in your kitchen ?
Please believe me, sweep out these pictures of you manufacturing your
product !

1. You're web site looks very good.
2. Europa looks good but not more than 100 other loudspeakers.
3. Subterfuge is horrible.
4. Your way of marketing is not good.
5. You don't seems to have a real sales policy
6. General feeling is : amateur packed in a professional box

I suggest you to pay more for a more attractive marketing content.

You ask brutally so I do.
You're for business not for my pleasure. I don't care you don't like me.

Sincerely,
Lionel

PS : under this light lets have a look to my previous posts.




Why don't you mention that even when buying through Madisound, his
$1350 pair of speakers have at most about $100 worth of drivers in
them.



Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?

Glad for you if you can sell them at $3000.00 to an over-remunerated bozo.

"ScottW" wrote in message
om...
trotsky wrote in message
...


Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?


I have no idea how much it costs YOU to get them boxed. Since you're
going cheap on the drivers, you might as well try to dazzle 'em with
the cabinets.

But if you really want some advice from someone who has some
experience in manufacturing including outsourcing and subcontracting I
would be happy to look at your BOM cost and give you an appraisal on
the cost competitiveness of your sources.

I also get a hoot from your "computer designed" crossover. Was that a
Commodore 64 or ? Did you design the crossover or hire a Dick
Pierce?
If you did it, what filter modelling program did you use?

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.
Why would you choose it if you had a choice? Don't tell me you're
hand soldering the crossover CCAs? Ooops.... Don't tell me you're
hand wiring the crossovers?

I would be nice if your web site provided more than fluf and pictures
of a fat guy who doesn't look particularly proficient with a
screwdriver. But I guess $1350 doesn't buy much in the way of
competent design and manufacturing in a cottage industry. I'll bet if
you actually sell 2 or 3 pair a month, you can cover your mortgage and
your investment.

ScottW

Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match thruogh Madisound.

"Girth" wrote in message
...
(ScottW) wrote:

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.

Oh yeah? So why do BAE spend *months* training their engineers to do
it.


Perhaps they hire really stupid people. Normal ones should be able to
master it in under a week.

--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message
om...

trotsky wrote in message

...


Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?


I have no idea how much it costs YOU to get them boxed. Since you're
going cheap on the drivers, you might as well try to dazzle 'em with
the cabinets.

But if you really want some advice from someone who has some
experience in manufacturing including outsourcing and subcontracting I
would be happy to look at your BOM cost and give you an appraisal on
the cost competitiveness of your sources.

I also get a hoot from your "computer designed" crossover. Was that a
Commodore 64 or ? Did you design the crossover or hire a Dick
Pierce?
If you did it, what filter modelling program did you use?

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.
Why would you choose it if you had a choice? Don't tell me you're
hand soldering the crossover CCAs? Ooops.... Don't tell me you're
hand wiring the crossovers?

I would be nice if your web site provided more than fluf and pictures
of a fat guy who doesn't look particularly proficient with a
screwdriver. But I guess $1350 doesn't buy much in the way of
competent design and manufacturing in a cottage industry. I'll bet if
you actually sell 2 or 3 pair a month, you can cover your mortgage and
your investment.

ScottW


Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match thruogh Madisound.


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using. I
drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want. At least you'll have something that sounds
good.

Girth wrote:
"Michael Mckelvy" wrote:


The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.

Oh yeah? So why do BAE spend *months* training their engineers to do
it.


Perhaps they hire really stupid people. Normal ones should be able to
master it in under a week.


Just goes to show how little you know.


Is Mickey actually educated in anything?

"Girth" wrote in message
...
"Michael Mckelvy" wrote:

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.

Oh yeah? So why do BAE spend *months* training their engineers to do
it.

Perhaps they hire really stupid people. Normal ones should be able to
master it in under a week.

Just goes to show how little you know.

I know how to solder.
--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

Girth said:

Is Mickey actually educated in anything?

Yeah, but it's very specialized - he ranks No.1 in his area for
drooling over a keyboard.

ROTFL! (Really!)

Don't feed Greggy too many Animal Crackers though.

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 03:17:29 +0100, Girth wrote:

Perhaps they hire really stupid people. Normal ones should be able to
master it in under a week.

Just goes to show how little you know.

Is Mickey actually educated in anything?

Yeah, but it's very specialized - he ranks No.1 in his area for
drooling over a keyboard.

It's a shame those DIY speakers of his didn't take off. Perhaps some
people just didn't like the idea of putting together the Lego bricks.

I thought the all-terrain wheels were a nice touch, though.

--
Oily Tartlet

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:10:40 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message
om...

trotsky wrote in message

...


Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?


I have no idea how much it costs YOU to get them boxed. Since you're
going cheap on the drivers, you might as well try to dazzle 'em with
the cabinets.

But if you really want some advice from someone who has some
experience in manufacturing including outsourcing and subcontracting I
would be happy to look at your BOM cost and give you an appraisal on
the cost competitiveness of your sources.

I also get a hoot from your "computer designed" crossover. Was that a
Commodore 64 or ? Did you design the crossover or hire a Dick
Pierce?
If you did it, what filter modelling program did you use?

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.
Why would you choose it if you had a choice? Don't tell me you're
hand soldering the crossover CCAs? Ooops.... Don't tell me you're
hand wiring the crossovers?

I would be nice if your web site provided more than fluf and pictures
of a fat guy who doesn't look particularly proficient with a
screwdriver. But I guess $1350 doesn't buy much in the way of
competent design and manufacturing in a cottage industry. I'll bet if
you actually sell 2 or 3 pair a month, you can cover your mortgage and
your investment.

ScottW


Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match thruogh Madisound.


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using. I
drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want. At least you'll have something that sounds
good.

I would suggest that discussing the costs and such of the speakers is
playing right into guys like Mr. McKelvy's hands.

I wonder what Mr. McKelvy's markup would have been had his business
not been a little hobby thing. And I wonder if he would have been
forthcoming about it.

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message
om...

trotsky wrote in message

...


Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive
part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?


I have no idea how much it costs YOU to get them boxed. Since you're
going cheap on the drivers, you might as well try to dazzle 'em with
the cabinets.

But if you really want some advice from someone who has some
experience in manufacturing including outsourcing and subcontracting I
would be happy to look at your BOM cost and give you an appraisal on
the cost competitiveness of your sources.

I also get a hoot from your "computer designed" crossover. Was that a
Commodore 64 or ? Did you design the crossover or hire a Dick
Pierce?
If you did it, what filter modelling program did you use?

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.
Why would you choose it if you had a choice? Don't tell me you're
hand soldering the crossover CCAs? Ooops.... Don't tell me you're
hand wiring the crossovers?

I would be nice if your web site provided more than fluf and pictures
of a fat guy who doesn't look particularly proficient with a
screwdriver. But I guess $1350 doesn't buy much in the way of
competent design and manufacturing in a cottage industry. I'll bet if
you actually sell 2 or 3 pair a month, you can cover your mortgage and
your investment.

ScottW


Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling
of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would
guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match thruogh Madisound.


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using.

Nor did I say you could **** for brains, but Madisound can order speaker
cabinets for you from Woodstyle products in any size, shape and dimensions
you specify. Thye build them for people like Legacy among others.

I
drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want.

No thanks. To cheap.


At least you'll have something that sounds
good.

How can I beleive a known liar and welcher, especially one who criticizes
something he's never heard.

I don't know what your speakers sound like and I can't say they sound bad,
only that based on what I already know about the drivers, I would never buy
them at the price your asking.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:10:40 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message
om...

trotsky wrote in message

...


Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive
part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?


I have no idea how much it costs YOU to get them boxed. Since you're
going cheap on the drivers, you might as well try to dazzle 'em with
the cabinets.

But if you really want some advice from someone who has some
experience in manufacturing including outsourcing and subcontracting I
would be happy to look at your BOM cost and give you an appraisal on
the cost competitiveness of your sources.

I also get a hoot from your "computer designed" crossover. Was that a
Commodore 64 or ? Did you design the crossover or hire a Dick
Pierce?
If you did it, what filter modelling program did you use?

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.
Why would you choose it if you had a choice? Don't tell me you're
hand soldering the crossover CCAs? Ooops.... Don't tell me you're
hand wiring the crossovers?

I would be nice if your web site provided more than fluf and pictures
of a fat guy who doesn't look particularly proficient with a
screwdriver. But I guess $1350 doesn't buy much in the way of
competent design and manufacturing in a cottage industry. I'll bet if
you actually sell 2 or 3 pair a month, you can cover your mortgage and
your investment.

ScottW


Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP
modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would
guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match thruogh Madisound.


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using. I
drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want. At least you'll have something that sounds
good.

I would suggest that discussing the costs and such of the speakers is
playing right into guys like Mr. McKelvy's hands.

I wonder what Mr. McKelvy's markup would have been had his business
not been a little hobby thing. And I wonder if he would have been
forthcoming about it.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:10:40 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message
om...

trotsky wrote in message

...


Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive
part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?


I have no idea how much it costs YOU to get them boxed. Since you're
going cheap on the drivers, you might as well try to dazzle 'em with
the cabinets.

But if you really want some advice from someone who has some
experience in manufacturing including outsourcing and subcontracting I
would be happy to look at your BOM cost and give you an appraisal on
the cost competitiveness of your sources.

I also get a hoot from your "computer designed" crossover. Was that a
Commodore 64 or ? Did you design the crossover or hire a Dick
Pierce?
If you did it, what filter modelling program did you use?

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.
Why would you choose it if you had a choice? Don't tell me you're
hand soldering the crossover CCAs? Ooops.... Don't tell me you're
hand wiring the crossovers?

I would be nice if your web site provided more than fluf and pictures
of a fat guy who doesn't look particularly proficient with a
screwdriver. But I guess $1350 doesn't buy much in the way of
competent design and manufacturing in a cottage industry. I'll bet if
you actually sell 2 or 3 pair a month, you can cover your mortgage and
your investment.

ScottW


Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP
modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would
guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match thruogh Madisound.


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using. I
drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want. At least you'll have something that sounds
good.

I would suggest that discussing the costs and such of the speakers is
playing right into guys like Mr. McKelvy's hands.

I wonder what Mr. McKelvy's markup would have been had his business
not been a little hobby thing. And I wonder if he would have been
forthcoming about it.

Since you asked I'll let you do some research after you get done cleaning
those last tables and filling the ketchups.

Price Focal T90 tweeters and Scan Speak 18w8544 midbass drivers and then
consider I offered mine at $1050.00 a pair. Then go **** yourself.

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:48:54 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:10:40 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message
om...

trotsky wrote in message

...


Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive
part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?


I have no idea how much it costs YOU to get them boxed. Since you're
going cheap on the drivers, you might as well try to dazzle 'em with
the cabinets.

But if you really want some advice from someone who has some
experience in manufacturing including outsourcing and subcontracting I
would be happy to look at your BOM cost and give you an appraisal on
the cost competitiveness of your sources.

I also get a hoot from your "computer designed" crossover. Was that a
Commodore 64 or ? Did you design the crossover or hire a Dick
Pierce?
If you did it, what filter modelling program did you use?

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.
Why would you choose it if you had a choice? Don't tell me you're
hand soldering the crossover CCAs? Ooops.... Don't tell me you're
hand wiring the crossovers?

I would be nice if your web site provided more than fluf and pictures
of a fat guy who doesn't look particularly proficient with a
screwdriver. But I guess $1350 doesn't buy much in the way of
competent design and manufacturing in a cottage industry. I'll bet if
you actually sell 2 or 3 pair a month, you can cover your mortgage and
your investment.

ScottW


Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP
modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would
guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match thruogh Madisound.


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using. I
drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want. At least you'll have something that sounds
good.

I would suggest that discussing the costs and such of the speakers is
playing right into guys like Mr. McKelvy's hands.

I wonder what Mr. McKelvy's markup would have been had his business
not been a little hobby thing. And I wonder if he would have been
forthcoming about it.

Since you asked I'll let you do some research after you get done cleaning
those last tables and filling the ketchups.

Ahhh, the ole class card again. We don't have ketchup, except when we
make our own for a special.

I know that at restaurants that you are accustomed to dining in, they
have ketchup on the tables. Hence, your focus on ketchup.
..
Price Focal T90 tweeters and Scan Speak 18w8544 midbass drivers and then
consider I offered mine at $1050.00 a pair. Then go **** yourself.

And you did this as your sole business exactly when? when did it
become something other than a hobby?

dave weil said to Mickey McBugEater:

Since you asked I'll let you do some research after you get done cleaning
those last tables and filling the ketchups.

Ahhh, the ole class card again. We don't have ketchup, except when we
make our own for a special.

I know that at restaurants that you are accustomed to dining in, they
have ketchup on the tables. Hence, your focus on ketchup.

Alternatively, duh-Mikey might be accustomed to the Con-Eat class of
restaurant, where they treat ketchup bottles the way nice restaurants
treat peppermills.

dave weil wrote:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:10:40 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Michael Mckelvy wrote:

Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match thruogh Madisound.


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using. I
drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want. At least you'll have something that sounds
good.


I would suggest that discussing the costs and such of the speakers is
playing right into guys like Mr. McKelvy's hands.


I tend to look at the bigger picture. First, I'm not going to divulge
any actual costs, because there's no reason to. Second, there seems to
be a trend in the audio biz where the cat's out of the bag and
manufacturers and retailers are bad for making x amount of profit.
Nobody seems to be complaining about how much money car dealers make,
for example. It's just petty and stupid.


I wonder what Mr. McKelvy's markup would have been had his business
not been a little hobby thing. And I wonder if he would have been
forthcoming about it.


Exactly. I'd like him to tell us what profit margins are permissible.
If he keeps shooting himself in the foot like this he's going to have
trouble walking.

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using.


Nor did I say you could **** for brains,


I've heard of dialing for dollars, but never ****ting for brains. Is
this a common practice at the McKelvy household?


but Madisound can order speaker
cabinets for you from Woodstyle products in any size, shape and dimensions
you specify. Thye build them for people like Legacy among others.


Is that what you did?



I

drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want.


No thanks. To cheap.


Right. And speakers with conventional tweeters are too ordinary. It
doesn't matter what brand they are.



At least you'll have something that sounds

good.


How can I beleive a known lia

r and welcher, especially one who criticizes
something he's never heard.

Mickey, you've proven yourself time and again as somebody that can't
hear too good, i.e. you haven't **** for enough brains to process the
information your ears provide you. Thus, unless you're a blind squirrel
finding a nut, the odds of your speakers sounding good compared the rest
of the DIY competition in very, very, slim.


I don't know what your speakers sound like and I can't say they sound bad,
only that based on what I already know about the drivers, I would never buy
them at the price your asking.


I see. So you can't name a single speaker in the world that is a better
value, particularly one that is comparable by having a ribbon tweeter,
but you can label my speakers as "to cheap" nonetheless. Sorry, still
sounds like sour grapes. I'm sorry, I meant Real Life Sour Grapes.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free.


Except Ellis.

Too bad he's going to be your main comparison. That and Tannoy and Kef.


Apparently you simply don't understand marketing. I'm hardly and
expert, but at least I've budgeted for that.

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using.


Nor did I say you could **** for brains,


I've heard of dialing for dollars, but never ****ting for brains. Is
this a common practice at the McKelvy household?


but Madisound can order speaker
cabinets for you from Woodstyle products in any size, shape and
dimensions
you specify. Thye build them for people like Legacy among others.


Is that what you did?


No I spoke with Brad personally and we went over the design I wanted and he
built to my specification.


I

drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want.


No thanks. To cheap.


Right. And speakers with conventional tweeters are too ordinary. It
doesn't matter what brand they are.

Just as long as they're cheap.

At least you'll have something that sounds

good.


How can I beleive a known lia

r and welcher, especially one who criticizes
something he's never heard.

Mickey, you've proven yourself time and again as somebody that can't
hear too good, i.e. you haven't **** for enough brains to process the
information your ears provide you.

OSAF. You've proven yourself to be deaf, a liar and a man of no integrity
up til now.


Thus, unless you're a blind squirrel
finding a nut, the odds of your speakers sounding good compared the rest
of the DIY competition in very, very, slim.


It's a lot easier when you start with world class drivers instead of 3rd
world knockoffs.


I don't know what your speakers sound like and I can't say they sound
bad,
only that based on what I already know about the drivers, I would never
buy
them at the price your asking.


I see. So you can't name a single speaker in the world that is a better
value,

I didn't say that either. PSB comes to mind. At least they use Vifa
products. Proac has prodcuts in your pricepoint useing Scan Speak and
Hiquphon drivers.

particularly one that is comparable by having a ribbon tweeter,
but you can label my speakers as "to cheap" nonetheless.

They are made with chaep drivers.

Sorry, still
sounds like sour grapes. I'm sorry, I meant Real Life Sour Grapes.



Youalways did have trouble with reality.

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 05:17:01 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free.

Except Ellis.

Who makes you wait up to a year.

Too bad he's going to be your main comparison. That and Tannoy and Kef.

They all offer ribbon tweeters, do they?

dave weil wrote:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 11:45:03 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Joseph Oberlander wrote:

If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free.

Except Ellis.

Too bad he's going to be your main comparison. That and Tannoy and Kef.


Apparently you simply don't understand marketing. I'm hardly and
expert, but at least I've budgeted for that.


Plus, there are probably a few people who don't want to wait a year
and send a huge deposit up front for the privilege as well.


Exactly. That's just not a real world situation. How many of these
speakers can the guy produce in a year? Not many. Thus it will be
perpetually an underground operation.

Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Michael Mckelvy wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using.


Nor did I say you could **** for brains,


I've heard of dialing for dollars, but never ****ting for brains. Is
this a common practice at the McKelvy household?


but Madisound can order speaker

cabinets for you from Woodstyle products in any size, shape and

dimensions

you specify. Thye build them for people like Legacy among others.


Is that what you did?



No I spoke with Brad personally and we went over the design I wanted and he
built to my specification.


I see, and your point is? You brought up the cabinet sourcing for some
kind of reason, right?


I


drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want.


No thanks. To cheap.


Right. And speakers with conventional tweeters are too ordinary. It
doesn't matter what brand they are.


Just as long as they're cheap.


It doesn't have anything to do with "cheap" are "expensive" which are
such relative terms that they are meaningless, anyway. It has to do
with actually putting thought into the product you're designing, and
understanding the people you're trying to reach. You can't claim to
have done that, right?


At least you'll have something that sounds


good.


How can I beleive a known lia

r and welcher, especially one who criticizes

something he's never heard.

Mickey, you've proven yourself time and again as somebody that can't
hear too good, i.e. you haven't **** for enough brains to process the
information your ears provide you.


OSAF. You've proven yourself to be deaf, a liar and a man of no integrity
up til now.


Mickey, that's no way to speak to me. Just order the subwoofer so you
can see how a good one is made. I'd like to see your cabinet supplier
build a sand filled base, btw. How much would that cost, Mickey?


Thus, unless you're a blind squirrel

finding a nut, the odds of your speakers sounding good compared the rest
of the DIY competition in very, very, slim.



It's a lot easier when you start with world class drivers instead of 3rd
world knockoffs.


Right. And the drivers the Silver Flutes are "knocking off" are what,
exactly? You don't even understand what you're trying to say. If you
come on Usenet with the astuteness of Rain Man how do expect people to
react?

Oh, and I make two products currently. When are you going to badmouth
the Peerless woofer?


I don't know what your speakers sound like and I can't say they sound

bad,

only that based on what I already know about the drivers, I would never

buy

them at the price your asking.


I see. So you can't name a single speaker in the world that is a better
value,


I didn't say that either. PSB comes to mind. At least they use Vifa
products. Proac has prodcuts in your pricepoint useing Scan Speak and
Hiquphon drivers.


So you're saying the brand of raw driver is paramount to the sound of
the finished product. I'm sorry, but that's a really stupid point of
view. It fact, that reeks of the robots' "placebo" concept.


particularly one that is comparable by having a ribbon tweeter,

but you can label my speakers as "to cheap" nonetheless.


They are made with chaep drivers.


Do the Vifas in PSBs cost more? No. Placebo!


Sorry, still

sounds like sour grapes. I'm sorry, I meant Real Life Sour Grapes.




Youalways did have trouble with reality.


Zzzzz.

Dave Weil wrote:


On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:48:54 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:10:40 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message
om...

trotsky wrote in message

...


Scooter, how good of you to chime in. Pity you haven't been paying
attention: I believe it's already been mentioned the most expensive
part
of a speaker is the cabinet. And since you're so learned, do you have
any idea how much it costs to get them boxed?


I have no idea how much it costs YOU to get them boxed. Since you're
going cheap on the drivers, you might as well try to dazzle 'em with
the cabinets.

But if you really want some advice from someone who has some
experience in manufacturing including outsourcing and subcontracting I
would be happy to look at your BOM cost and give you an appraisal on
the cost competitiveness of your sources.

I also get a hoot from your "computer designed" crossover. Was that a
Commodore 64 or ? Did you design the crossover or hire a Dick
Pierce?
If you did it, what filter modelling program did you use?

The hand soldered comment is also a hoot. Anyone in electronics knows
the most unreliable soldering process on the planet is hand soldering.
Why would you choose it if you had a choice? Don't tell me you're
hand soldering the crossover CCAs? Ooops.... Don't tell me you're
hand wiring the crossovers?

I would be nice if your web site provided more than fluf and pictures
of a fat guy who doesn't look particularly proficient with a
screwdriver. But I guess $1350 doesn't buy much in the way of
competent design and manufacturing in a cottage industry. I'll bet if
you actually sell 2 or 3 pair a month, you can cover your mortgage and
your investment.

ScottW


Since the drivers are available from Madisound and they do LEAP
modeling of
xovers and use Woodstyle Products for their speaker cabinets, I would
guess
that Greggy gets the whole shootin' match thruogh Madisound.


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design, you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using. I
drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead and
copy my speaker if you want. At least you'll have something that sounds
good.

I would suggest that discussing the costs and such of the speakers is
playing right into guys like Mr. McKelvy's hands.

I wonder what Mr. McKelvy's markup would have been had his business
not been a little hobby thing. And I wonder if he would have been
forthcoming about it.

Since you asked I'll let you do some research after you get done cleaning
those last tables and filling the ketchups.

Ahhh, the ole class card again. We don't have ketchup, except when we
make our own for a special.

I know that at restaurants that you are accustomed to dining in, they
have ketchup on the tables. Hence, your focus on ketchup.
.

Unbelievable! Proven liar and frequent libeler McKelvy, who claims others are
"elitists" as part of his normal routine hatemongering schtick, has the
unmitigated gall to ridicule other peoples' occupations. Of course, given his
hero worship and parasitic mimicing of Krueger, this comes as no surprise.
He's in serious need of professional help - not that there's anything wrong
with that.



Price Focal T90 tweeters and Scan Speak 18w8544 midbass drivers and then
consider I offered mine at $1050.00 a pair. Then go **** yourself.

And you did this as your sole business exactly when? when did it
become something other than a hobby?











Bruce J. Richman

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Michael Mckelvy wrote:
"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Michael Mckelvy wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Mickey, this is sad. If you knew *anything* about speaker design,
you'd
realize that you can't use an off the shelf cabinet if you want
anything
close to the correct internal volume for the woofer you're using.


Nor did I say you could **** for brains,


I've heard of dialing for dollars, but never ****ting for brains. Is
this a common practice at the McKelvy household?


but Madisound can order speaker

cabinets for you from Woodstyle products in any size, shape and

dimensions

you specify. Thye build them for people like Legacy among others.


Is that what you did?



No I spoke with Brad personally and we went over the design I wanted and
he
built to my specification.


I see, and your point is? You brought up the cabinet sourcing for some
kind of reason, right?


I


drew up the plans and handed them to a friend of a friend who builds
cabinets (and homes) for a living. I do buy some stuff from
Madisound.
I buys some stuff from Solen. I order QED Silver Anniversary cable
for the internal wiring from England because it's cheaper. If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend
hours
building these puppies for free. You have DIY experience--go ahead
and
copy my speaker if you want.


No thanks. To cheap.


Right. And speakers with conventional tweeters are too ordinary. It
doesn't matter what brand they are.


Just as long as they're cheap.


It doesn't have anything to do with "cheap" are "expensive" which are
such relative terms that they are meaningless, anyway.

Not when it comes to drivers IMO. You get what you pay for.

It has to do
with actually putting thought into the product you're designing, and
understanding the people you're trying to reach.

People with lots of money and no sense of value?

You can't claim to
have done that, right?


I began by finding the best performing drivers and designing a system around
them. Then I chose a price I thought was fair. My aim was to provide
maximum VALUE for the price not maximum PRICE for the least value. You seem
to be concentrating on cosmetics over performance, while I chose performance
first.

At least you'll have something that sounds


good.


How can I beleive a known lia

r and welcher, especially one who criticizes

something he's never heard.

Mickey, you've proven yourself time and again as somebody that can't
hear too good, i.e. you haven't **** for enough brains to process the
information your ears provide you.


OSAF. You've proven yourself to be deaf, a liar and a man of no
integrity
up til now.


Mickey, that's no way to speak to me. Just order the subwoofer so you
can see how a good one is made. I'd like to see your cabinet supplier
build a sand filled base, btw. How much would that cost, Mickey?


No surpise, you don't know.

Thus, unless you're a blind squirrel

finding a nut, the odds of your speakers sounding good compared the rest
of the DIY competition in very, very, slim.



It's a lot easier when you start with world class drivers instead of 3rd
world knockoffs.


Right. And the drivers the Silver Flutes are "knocking off" are what,
exactly?

Who knows, who cares? They're mediocre at best, no matter how you slice it.

You don't even understand what you're trying to say. If you
come on Usenet with the astuteness of Rain Man how do expect people to
react?

Oh, and I make two products currently. When are you going to badmouth
the Peerless woofer?


Peerless makes a very good product for the money. They also have some high
end stuff that you might want to consider.

I don't know what your speakers sound like and I can't say they sound

bad,

only that based on what I already know about the drivers, I would never

buy

them at the price your asking.


I see. So you can't name a single speaker in the world that is a better
value,


I didn't say that either. PSB comes to mind. At least they use Vifa
products. Proac has prodcuts in your pricepoint useing Scan Speak and
Hiquphon drivers.


So you're saying the brand of raw driver is paramount to the sound of
the finished product.

No. IO'm saying those brands are superior and many people know it and the
reputation of the product lines they turn up in.

I'm sorry, but that's a really stupid point of
view. It fact, that reeks of the robots' "placebo" concept.

You reek as well, but it's from something else.

particularly one that is comparable by having a ribbon tweeter,

but you can label my speakers as "to cheap" nonetheless.


They are made with chaep drivers.


Do the Vifas in PSBs cost more? No. Placebo!

Some do, but they are based on proven technology backed up by companies
with tremendous R&D.





You always did have trouble with reality.

trotsky wrote in message ...
dave weil wrote:

I would suggest that discussing the costs and such of the speakers is
playing right into guys like Mr. McKelvy's hands.


I tend to look at the bigger picture. First, I'm not going to divulge
any actual costs, because there's no reason to. Second, there seems to
be a trend in the audio biz where the cat's out of the bag and
manufacturers and retailers are bad for making x amount of profit.
Nobody seems to be complaining about how much money car dealers make,
for example. It's just petty and stupid.



Since I can get a $30K car for $500 above dealer invoice at half the
dealers in town which is less than 2% markup, you might want to try
another example.

Perhaps you're planning on making your money on speaker repairs and
service like a car dealer does on cars.

ScottW

ScottW wrote:
trotsky wrote in message ...

dave weil wrote:

I would suggest that discussing the costs and such of the speakers is
playing right into guys like Mr. McKelvy's hands.


I tend to look at the bigger picture. First, I'm not going to divulge
any actual costs, because there's no reason to. Second, there seems to
be a trend in the audio biz where the cat's out of the bag and
manufacturers and retailers are bad for making x amount of profit.
Nobody seems to be complaining about how much money car dealers make,
for example. It's just petty and stupid.




Since I can get a $30K car for $500 above dealer invoice at half the
dealers in town which is less than 2% markup, you might want to try
another example.


And you really think the dealer is only making $500 at that point?
You're dumber than I thought.

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:50:58 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:23:01 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:

Right. And the drivers the Silver Flutes are "knocking off" are what,
exactly?

Who knows, who cares? They're mediocre at best, no matter how you slice
it.

And you know this exactly how?

By the T/S parameters. No I will not conduct a course on speaker design for
you.

I see. No need to ever listen to speakers again...

trotsky wrote:


Joseph Oberlander wrote:


If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free.



Except Ellis.

Too bad he's going to be your main comparison. That and Tannoy and Kef.



Apparently you simply don't understand marketing. I'm hardly and
expert, but at least I've budgeted for that.


The consumer doesn't care at ALL. They listen to yours and then
to the KEF and Tannoys for the same price and you loose every
time. Only lowering your price to Tannoy and Kef's comparable
models will you draw in customers.

dave weil wrote:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 05:17:01 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free.

Except Ellis.


Who makes you wait up to a year.

He does say that he's planning to outsource the cabinets. That's 95%
of the waiting time. Drop a year wait down to two weeks at most, and
the end cost to the owner to $1000 even.

Woe be to people like Trotsky when that happens.

Too bad he's going to be your main comparison. That and Tannoy and Kef.

They all offer ribbon tweeters, do they?

I'd put Tannoy's Saturn drivers against his anyday.

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 02:53:35 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


The consumer doesn't care at ALL. They listen to yours and then
to the KEF and Tannoys for the same price and you loose every
time. Only lowering your price to Tannoy and Kef's comparable
models will you draw in customers.

You really don't know this until you listen to his speakers.

Not everyone likes Tannoy, after all...

trotsky wrote:


Michael Mckelvy wrote:

Just as long as they're cheap.



It doesn't have anything to do with "cheap" are "expensive" which are
such relative terms that they are meaningless, anyway. It has to do
with actually putting thought into the product you're designing, and
understanding the people you're trying to reach. You can't claim to
have done that, right?

You can't turn a Hyundai into a Mercedes.

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 03:05:34 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

dave weil wrote:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 05:17:01 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free.

Except Ellis.


Who makes you wait up to a year.

He does say that he's planning to outsource the cabinets. That's 95%
of the waiting time. Drop a year wait down to two weeks at most, and
the end cost to the owner to $1000 even.

Woe be to people like Trotsky when that happens.

I'll bet it never happens. I doubt he has the time to crank out more
than a handful at a time.

Too bad he's going to be your main comparison. That and Tannoy and Kef.

They all offer ribbon tweeters, do they?

I'd put Tannoy's Saturn drivers against his anyday.

Listening test results please...

Also, the comparable Tannoy is only $300 cheaper than than the
eventual retail price of the Europas. heck, the cabinet is far nicer.
The specs seem about the same...of course, they're going to sound
quite a bit cheaper.

I know you like Tannoy and all, but they're not exactly a barnburner
in terms of sales here in the US either. However, I'm not going to put
down Tannoy just to build up Greg's speakers.

You should try the same philosophy. You just don't like Greg, so
you're going to badmouth him by using some guy who builds speakers on
his time off from the Air Force (nothing wrong with that of course).

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 03:15:25 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

trotsky wrote:


Michael Mckelvy wrote:

Just as long as they're cheap.



It doesn't have anything to do with "cheap" are "expensive" which are
such relative terms that they are meaningless, anyway. It has to do
with actually putting thought into the product you're designing, and
understanding the people you're trying to reach. You can't claim to
have done that, right?

You can't turn a Hyundai into a Mercedes.

I've seen somebody turn a Beetle into a Porsche 911 though. In Germany
oddly enough. You can imagine the craftsmanship it took to get through
the stringent German inspection process. The front 2/3rd of the car
is/was a bug and the rear cap (with the wide wheel wells), motor,
whaletail, instrumentation and running gear is/was a 911.

Of course, the car would only do about 135 mph due to aerodynamic
considerations...

dave weil wrote:
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 03:05:34 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:


dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 05:17:01 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:



If you had
any self esteem, you'd also realize that nobody is going to spend hours
building these puppies for free.

Except Ellis.


Who makes you wait up to a year.

He does say that he's planning to outsource the cabinets. That's 95%
of the waiting time. Drop a year wait down to two weeks at most, and
the end cost to the owner to $1000 even.

Woe be to people like Trotsky when that happens.


I'll bet it never happens. I doubt he has the time to crank out more
than a handful at a time.


Too bad he's going to be your main comparison. That and Tannoy and Kef.

They all offer ribbon tweeters, do they?

I'd put Tannoy's Saturn drivers against his anyday.


Listening test results please...

Also, the comparable Tannoy is only $300 cheaper than than the
eventual retail price of the Europas. heck, the cabinet is far nicer.
The specs seem about the same...of course, they're going to sound
quite a bit cheaper.

I know you like Tannoy and all, but they're not exactly a barnburner
in terms of sales here in the US either. However, I'm not going to put
down Tannoy just to build up Greg's speakers.

You should try the same philosophy. You just don't like Greg, so

No, but his markups based upon the prices(not much discount, either,
off of retail) he pays for drivers and components leads me to
believe that Tannoy(or B&W or...) will end up making a better
speaker than he can.

I'll wait and listen for the final decision, but it's not hard
to look at a Hyundai and wonder if it will be better or worse than
that Mercedes next to it.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:



Michael Mckelvy wrote:


Just as long as they're cheap.




It doesn't have anything to do with "cheap" are "expensive" which are
such relative terms that they are meaningless, anyway. It has to do
with actually putting thought into the product you're designing, and
understanding the people you're trying to reach. You can't claim to
have done that, right?


You can't turn a Hyundai into a Mercedes.


Do you really think Hyundais and Mercedes are comparably priced, Joe?

Arny Krueger wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:50:58 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
. ..

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:23:01 -0700, "Michael Mckelvy"
wrote:


Right. And the drivers the Silver Flutes are "knocking off" are
what, exactly?


Who knows, who cares? They're mediocre at best, no matter how you
slice it.


And you know this exactly how?


By the T/S parameters. No I will not conduct a course on speaker
design for you.


I see. No need to ever listen to speakers again...


For Mike, it appears that Singh and Weil think you can squeeze blood
out of
a rock by simply listening to it. LOL!

For Weil & Singh - T/S parameters can't tell you that a speaker sounds
good,
but they can tell you that there's no way it is going to sound
anything but
bad or mediocre.


That's weird, Arny, because I've seen multiple testimonials saying the
Silver Flutes are some of the most accurate drivers in their price
range. Of course, this is from guys that actually buy boat loads of
drivers and test them constantly. On the other hand we have a guy
sitting around in his underwear poking motherboards with screwdrivers.
As Oberlander would say, you do the math.

The bottom line is that I did plenty of research before building the
speakers, and felt that the Silver Flutes would give me that best bang
for the buck in a driver that few people if anybody are using. As it
turns out, the speaker exceeding my wildest dreams when finished.
(After a thorough break-in, of course). Ditto for the sub. There just
great products at great prices, period. And I'm just getting started.
My next product, when I can afford to do it, will be a sub based around
the 18" AuraSound driver. With a sand filled base, of course. But do
tell, Arny, what a speaker company should be doing to stand out from the
crowd--quote Xmax figures? Only snot nosed geeks are going to care
about that.