i do solo and small ensemble classical recordings for local artists.
studio room is about 17x23x8', and fairly deadish, carpet floors, lots
of diffusion. mostly these things are individually close miced,and
generally even small groups are tracked one at a time as per their
request. so i am having to use digital reverb to make a convincing
sounding space for the tracks. some instruments sound just fine with
digital reverb, and others just never seem to sound quite right. i do
lots of flute recordings, so of course, flute happens to be about the
hardest instrument to make sound like it is in a real space, for some
reason unknown to me. i have tried all kinds of software and outboard
reverbs, blending two or more verbs, tried long pre-delays, using a
room mic and just putting the verb on it and blending it in, etc etc
until i am like blue in the face. i just cant get a realistic sounding
reverb for the flute tracks. for example, i did a violin and flute
piece, and setup a reverb patch on the violin with a short plate, and a
little bit of large hall and it sounded just perfect. but when i tried
to use exactly the same settings on the flute track, it just doesnt
sound right. do any of you have any advice on how i might go about
getting a good reverb sound for a solo flute track? also, just how
critical is it to use the same reverb settings for each instrument in e
trio so they sound like they are all playing in the same place? is ti
okay to use different amounts or types of reverb, or perhaps add a
delay on one instrument and not the others, for a situation like that?
thanks.

My experience is with classic guitar and flute. Yes, I feel free
to give them different reverb settings. It sounds more natural to
me. In live performance I hear different room acoustics resulting
from each having different placement with regard to the listener
as well as the room surfaces. Different settings also helps to
differentiate the mix for the listener, which can be important
if the instruments have a passage in the same register or are
called upon to play in unison. It may be a matter of taste, but
I am inclined to give the flute the greater degree of reverb. I
believe that to be kind of an industry standard, and my own
negative reaction to some Segovia recordings out there in
which his guitar drips from excessive reverb, becoming hard
to listen to.

Hope the above's some help.....

wrote in news:1145584182.948125.281320
@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

i do solo and small ensemble classical recordings for local artists.
studio room is about 17x23x8', and fairly deadish, carpet floors, lots
of diffusion. mostly these things are individually close miced,and
generally even small groups are tracked one at a time as per their
request. so i am having to use digital reverb to make a convincing
sounding space for the tracks. some instruments sound just fine with
digital reverb, and others just never seem to sound quite right.

1) If you're recording one-at-a-time for performance as an ensemble, don't
record so close. Setup as far back as you would be for the whole ensemble.
This will multiply your noise levels by the number of instruments compared
to an all-at-once recording, but will get the proper spectral balance of
each instrument.

2) Get a "convolution reverb". Synthesized digital reverb can sound very
good on nearly all electronic and synthetic sources, but often carries an
edge or grit into acoustic low-distortion sources that draws attention to
the reverb. A convolution reverb uses a (hopefully) live recording of a
real room's decay to create a more natural sounding reverb.

The one I use is a freeware download from www.knufinke.de/sir It uses
ordinary WAV files as it's samples, so you can make your own easily.

3) Mix the instruments together such that they sound good, just close.
First make them sound like an ensemble without reverb, then add the reverb.
You can't do the former without the latter.

3) Mix the instruments together such that they sound good, just close.
First make them sound like an ensemble without reverb, then add the
reverb. You can't do the former without the latter.

That should read "You can't do the latter without the former." You can't
get a good reverbed group sound until you have a good un-reverbed sound.

wrote:
i do solo and small ensemble classical recordings for local artists.
studio room is about 17x23x8', and fairly deadish, carpet floors, lots
of diffusion. mostly these things are individually close miced,and
generally even small groups are tracked one at a time as per their
request. so i am having to use digital reverb to make a convincing
sounding space for the tracks. some instruments sound just fine with
digital reverb, and others just never seem to sound quite right. i do
lots of flute recordings, so of course, flute happens to be about the
hardest instrument to make sound like it is in a real space, for some
reason unknown to me. i have tried all kinds of software and outboard
reverbs, blending two or more verbs, tried long pre-delays, using a
room mic and just putting the verb on it and blending it in, etc etc
until i am like blue in the face. i just cant get a realistic sounding
reverb for the flute tracks. for example, i did a violin and flute
piece, and setup a reverb patch on the violin with a short plate, and a
little bit of large hall and it sounded just perfect. but when i tried
to use exactly the same settings on the flute track, it just doesnt
sound right. do any of you have any advice on how i might go about
getting a good reverb sound for a solo flute track? also, just how
critical is it to use the same reverb settings for each instrument in e
trio so they sound like they are all playing in the same place? is ti
okay to use different amounts or types of reverb, or perhaps add a
delay on one instrument and not the others, for a situation like that?
thanks.

I think the first challenge is that whatever room sound is in the
recording from the start, is permanent. You may have diffusion and
absorption in for the relatively short wavelengths, but the low
frequencies will bounce around and end up on the recording. So first
off, you're adding reverb to what is already there.

Thus, perhaps a first approach is to roll the lows off the singal when
sending it to your reverb unit, and try to find a transition frequency
between the recorded reberb and the added reverb.

Also, the flute is a compex acoustic device, radiating in a dipole
arrangement. In real space, when listening live, you'll hear the
complex interaction that happens with in and out of phase signals
bouncing around the room and mixing. But your close mic will not pick
up that aspect of the sound. Thus, generally flute is recorded from a
greater distance, in a live-ish room. Unfortunately, that's not at your
disposal (or is it?) and if it was, you'll find it more difficult in
some ways to blend the real reverb with the artificial. That is, unless
you can find a digital version that is close to the real one.

I might suggest backing off with the mic a bit on the flute, and maybe
even placing it behind the flute, or behind the person's head on the
other side from the flute, etc. Or mic it in stereo.

Someone else commented about Segovia's recordings and how some of them
are too wet with reverb. I have a similar problem with a Julian Bream
recording from the late 1970s called "Spanish Guitar" or something like
that on RCA. Wayyy too wet, and there's just no reason for that.

Karl Winkler
http://www.lectrosonics.com
http://www.giovanniquartet.com
http://www.karlwinkler.com

wrote in message
oups.com...
i do solo and small ensemble classical recordings for local artists.
studio room is about 17x23x8', and fairly deadish, carpet floors, lots
of diffusion. mostly these things are individually close miced,and
generally even small groups are tracked one at a time as per their
request. so i am having to use digital reverb to make a convincing
sounding space for the tracks. some instruments sound just fine with
digital reverb, and others just never seem to sound quite right. i do
lots of flute recordings, so of course, flute happens to be about the
hardest instrument to make sound like it is in a real space, for some
reason unknown to me. i have tried all kinds of software and outboard
reverbs, blending two or more verbs, tried long pre-delays, using a
room mic and just putting the verb on it and blending it in, etc etc
until i am like blue in the face. i just cant get a realistic sounding
reverb for the flute tracks. for example, i did a violin and flute
piece, and setup a reverb patch on the violin with a short plate, and a
little bit of large hall and it sounded just perfect. but when i tried
to use exactly the same settings on the flute track, it just doesnt
sound right. do any of you have any advice on how i might go about
getting a good reverb sound for a solo flute track? also, just how
critical is it to use the same reverb settings for each instrument in e
trio so they sound like they are all playing in the same place? is ti
okay to use different amounts or types of reverb, or perhaps add a
delay on one instrument and not the others, for a situation like that?
thanks.

Try re-recording the room. Take your recorder, an amplifier and a studio
monitor speaker, place them in the room, record the room with a pair of
mikes and bring it back to your studio and mix it. You want to mike the room
and reject the dry sound from the monitor. You would be surprised how good
it can sound if you get the room miked well. All you are really doing is
making an echo chamber and bringing it back home with you. What's good about
it is that by mixing the dry and wet sound (the room) together, you can
bring the instrument forward or backward in the room. You can make it stand
out or "sink" into the room, you can also pre-delay the room tracks and
seperate the instrument from the room a little.

wrote:
i do solo and small ensemble classical recordings for local artists.
studio room is about 17x23x8', and fairly deadish, carpet floors, lots
of diffusion. mostly these things are individually close miced,and
generally even small groups are tracked one at a time as per their
request. so i am having to use digital reverb to make a convincing
sounding space for the tracks. some instruments sound just fine with
digital reverb, and others just never seem to sound quite right. i do
lots of flute recordings, so of course, flute happens to be about the
hardest instrument to make sound like it is in a real space, for some
reason unknown to me. i have tried all kinds of software and outboard
reverbs, blending two or more verbs, tried long pre-delays, using a
room mic and just putting the verb on it and blending it in, etc etc
until i am like blue in the face. i just cant get a realistic sounding
reverb for the flute tracks. for example, i did a violin and flute
piece, and setup a reverb patch on the violin with a short plate, and a
little bit of large hall and it sounded just perfect. but when i tried
to use exactly the same settings on the flute track, it just doesnt
sound right. do any of you have any advice on how i might go about
getting a good reverb sound for a solo flute track? also, just how
critical is it to use the same reverb settings for each instrument in e
trio so they sound like they are all playing in the same place? is ti
okay to use different amounts or types of reverb, or perhaps add a
delay on one instrument and not the others, for a situation like that?
thanks.

Stereo reverb helps. And pre-delay is a good parameter to play
with for the overall room, for flute you might want to play with the
levels of the early reflections parameters. (But then I do love the
60's jazz flute flying in echoes thing... g )

To sound natural you do need more room in the flute sound at the
mic, but do I recall you use omnis a lot? Perhaps to add some
reflections acoustically when you track, some parquet underfoot, maybe
put the guy nearer to a wall and put a pair of spaced omnis out as room
mics.

Maybe you should've kept the DPAs? g

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits