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#1
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
Hi. I work at a small-market radio station which covers a local
Division III college, and I'd be grateful for your suggestions about a choice of microphone to capture ambient crowd noise at football games in specific situations. I am by no means an audio expert (this is, after all, small market radio!), but my experience over several years at least has shown me where our audio is weak. I'm hoping to find a way to capture the general crowd noise from the stands on the OTHER side of the football stadium, especially so that our listeners can hear cheers for their team at away games. There are several challenges he - The noise I want to capture is that produced by a quantity of people which ranges from several dozen (occasionally), 100-200 (typically), on up to a few thousand spectators (maybe one game per year). (If we had NFL- or even Division I-sized crowds in the tens of thousands, this probably wouldn't be an issue.) - The weakness in our current gear is when those fans are on the other side of the field, which is probably 75 to 100 yards from where I could place a wired microphone -- on the roof of the press box, if I'm lucky, or sometimes pointing right out the window of our broadcast booth (if it's even a booth -- in other words, some suppression of noise from other press box personnel [or the opposing team's radio broadcasters] is a necessity). These are typically small stadiums (3000 to 9000 seats) with smallish press boxes that sometimes have no roof access, sometimes have a side door through which I can string mic cables, etc.). My experience is that the traditional mics I place in/on the press box only capture the noise made by the spectators on the near side. - Of course, such a mic will have no human operator during the broadcast (unlike what I read at http://members.aol.com/pics222/prab.html). Set it up, point it in approximately the right direction, and then it's not touched until we tear down. - I'm open to the idea of placing one or more appropriate wireless mics on the far side of the field (getting cables over there is simply not possible), but it's not my first choice unless that's just the only practical way to capture that sound. I think it's very likely to either be knocked over by somebody (player, spectator), stolen, or both. - It should be noted that we send a mono signal over a telephone line back to our station, so there will be no point in spending extra dollars to get Brand A because it outputs higher quality sound than Brand B. Heck, if Brand X can capture the sound we want from the distance we need, so long as it outputs any audio at all, it's likely to be of adequate quality! And, for what it's worth, the one crowd mic that I usually set up does just fine capturing the ambient noise made by the home crowd when it's 1000+ strong, and I know that no mic is going to make 200 far-side spectators sound as exciting and full as frenzied Super Bowl fans. But that same omnidirectional mic totally failed to capture much sound of 3000+ of our own fans cheering the last-second miracle win at the big end-of-season rivalry game two years ago because our fans were on the far side of the stadium. Which is why I'm now here. :-) So. Is there hope? Some flavor of shotgun mic? Parabolic? Tin cans, string, and duct tape? I'd be grateful for any thoughts. -John -- newsgroupsjohn at yahoo dot com |
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#3
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
In Article ,
"George Gleason" wrote: John what your looking for is a PZM on a stand hooked to a transmitter, though I would hard wire it I would think a mic like a "sound grabber" or pcc160 would be ideal though you can experiment with some lower cost units like the Radio shack piece I would see no problem with dropping a 300 foot mic cord dressed to the outer perimeter of the feild esp if you went around the end of the feild opposite where they enter from I often deploy 300 to 500 foot mic cables to feed signal to remote delay stacks I like George's idea of the PZM. It won't look like a mic and will be less likely to be stolen. You could even screw it onto something. I'd still opt for wireless though. Ty **Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address. Please remove it if you want to email me directly. For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews, click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford |
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#4
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
John what your looking for is a PZM
on a stand hooked to a transmitter, though I would hard wire it I would think a mic like a "sound grabber" or pcc160 would be ideal though you can experiment with some lower cost units like the Radio shack piece I would see no problem with dropping a 300 foot mic cord dressed to the outer perimeter of the feild esp if you went around the end of the feild opposite where they enter from I often deploy 300 to 500 foot mic cables to feed signal to remote delay stacks |
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#5
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
Hey try a AKG C562 BL. You could screw that thing to anything. It actually
has holes through the plate to do so. Plus it's a great sounding mic. Good Luck, JonnyD "Ty Ford" wrote in message ... In Article , "George Gleason" wrote: John what your looking for is a PZM on a stand hooked to a transmitter, though I would hard wire it I would think a mic like a "sound grabber" or pcc160 would be ideal though you can experiment with some lower cost units like the Radio shack piece I would see no problem with dropping a 300 foot mic cord dressed to the outer perimeter of the feild esp if you went around the end of the feild opposite where they enter from I often deploy 300 to 500 foot mic cables to feed signal to remote delay stacks I like George's idea of the PZM. It won't look like a mic and will be less likely to be stolen. You could even screw it onto something. I'd still opt for wireless though. Ty **Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my email address. Please remove it if you want to email me directly. For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews, click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford |
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#6
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
John wrote:
- I'm open to the idea of placing one or more appropriate wireless mics on the far side of the field (getting cables over there is simply not possible), but it's not my first choice unless that's just the only practical way to capture that sound. I think it's very likely to either be knocked over by somebody (player, spectator), stolen, or both. The cable isn't THAT difficult to do. A couple hundred feet of cable with an EV 635A on the end of it will give you a better ground sound than you can imagine, if you can pull it up high enough that you get an overall roar rather than individual voices. And if someone knocks it, it'll be fine. If someone steals it, you're out fifty bucks. And, for what it's worth, the one crowd mic that I usually set up does just fine capturing the ambient noise made by the home crowd when it's 1000+ strong, and I know that no mic is going to make 200 far-side spectators sound as exciting and full as frenzied Super Bowl fans. But that same omnidirectional mic totally failed to capture much sound of 3000+ of our own fans cheering the last-second miracle win at the big end-of-season rivalry game two years ago because our fans were on the far side of the stadium. Which is why I'm now here. :-) The mike isn't the problem, the location is the problem. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#7
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
Ty Ford wrote:
I seem to recall stories of baseball games "broadcast live" in the early days of radio, where the station announcer would do play by play by reading wire copy and using sound effects. Theater of the mind. They did this well into the sixties in Hawaii. You gotta have several cart machines live into the console with different crowd sounds that you can fade between, also a couple cart machines dedicated to specific effects. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#8
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
"George Gleason" wrote in message ...
John what your looking for is a PZM on a stand hooked to a transmitter, though I would hard wire it I would think a mic like a "sound grabber" or pcc160 would be ideal though you can experiment with some lower cost units like the Radio shack piece. Interesting idea. I've seen these mics in other environments but never had opportunity to use one myself -- nor would I have thought of it for this application. If the cost is low, I'm willing to experiment. I would see no problem with dropping a 300 foot mic cord dressed to the outer perimeter of the feild esp if you went around the end of the feild opposite where they enter from. Unfortunately it's just not possible. These are small facilities -- Division III colleges have hundreds to a few thousand students, and their football fields are usually much more like high school fields, with the running track circling the field, and the like. There's just no way to get a cable from the press box to the other side without it crossing the path of spectactors. If I had hours to secure the cable every week, maybe ... but otherwise for safety reasons (so nobody would trip on the cable, etc.) the colleges would never let me do it. So if the mic has to be on the far side to work, sounds like wireless is my only option. Thanks for your thoughts! -John |
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#9
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
"JonnyD" wrote in message ...
Hey try a AKG C562 BL. You could screw that thing to anything. It actually has holes through the plate to do so. Plus it's a great sounding mic. Thanks, JonnyD. I'll keep an eye out for one of those. -John |
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#11
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
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#12
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
A few thoughts:
I agree that wireless is the way to go. I normally favor wired, but wireless is the only answer sometimes. I have a Sennheiser Evolution 500 setup that gives good quality for the money. Is there any raised structure near the home crowd? A flagpole, light standard, fence post, anything above reach, 8' or so? Just duct tape a wireless up there. Or maybe you can trust a home fan to hold it - but you might pick up some stray conversation. Doing sports, I always like to "duck" the sound. Send the announcer mikes to a sub that triggers a compressor, then run the field mic as the input/output of the compressor. The crowd noise ("nats") are real loud, but whenever someone talks, it cuts a hole in the crowd noise. Use fast attack and release. You can get a similar effect by pumping the whole signal through a compressor, set so the nats are not compressed, but the mics are. |
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#13
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
John wrote:
Unfortunately it's just not possible. These are small facilities -- Division III colleges have hundreds to a few thousand students, and their football fields are usually much more like high school fields, with the running track circling the field, and the like. There's just no way to get a cable from the press box to the other side without it crossing the path of spectactors. If I had hours to secure the cable every week, maybe ... but otherwise for safety reasons (so nobody would trip on the cable, etc.) the colleges would never let me do it. Every week? No. You put the cable in place, tie it down with nylon cable ties, and leave it there all season. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#14
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
In article ,
(John) wrote: (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message ... The cable isn't THAT difficult to do. A couple hundred feet of cable with an EV 635A on the end of it will give you a better ground sound than you can imagine, if you can pull it up high enough that you get an overall roar rather than individual voices. And if someone knocks it, it'll be fine. If someone steals it, you're out fifty bucks. Actually, the cable is tougher to do than you might realize. These small press boxes and small football facilities (Division III colleage facilities are more like a typical high school, and far, far, far from the giant stadiums you see on college football on TV) just don't provide a way to get cable across to the other side without it passing across spectator walking paths a hundred times ... which for safety reasons the colleges surely won't let me do. I know there are ways of securing the cable, but we typically have only an hour or so to set up before we're on the air. Just my opinion as someone who has done years of wiring temp lines in all kinds of crowded facilities you will have a easier time dressing the wire than establishing a reliable radio link from across a stadium on anything less than full on pro wireless(read over 1000$ a channel) JMO George |
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#15
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
(John) wrote in message . com...
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message ... The cable isn't THAT difficult to do. A couple hundred feet of cable with an EV 635A on the end of it will give you a better ground sound than you can imagine, if you can pull it up high enough that you get an overall roar rather than individual voices. And if someone knocks it, it'll be fine. If someone steals it, you're out fifty bucks. Actually, the cable is tougher to do than you might realize. These small press boxes and small football facilities (Division III colleage facilities are more like a typical high school, and far, far, far from the giant stadiums you see on college football on TV) just don't provide a way to get cable across to the other side without it passing across spectator walking paths a hundred times ... which for safety reasons the colleges surely won't let me do. I know there are ways of securing the cable, but we typically have only an hour or so to set up before we're on the air. Hey John, I'm a second audio for sports television broadcast and some radio in New York (that's how I support my gear lust). In the situation you described we would usually use a pair of Sennheiser 416, or similar, shotgun mics on a stereo bar and run cables and drive the signal with a line amp if it's really long run. For radio the EV 635 should work fine, as Scott suggested. I wouldn't worry about a 635 getting stolen if you fasten it well in an inconspicuous place. I've put expensive microphones in some pretty crazy places. For instance, I've set up for parades on 5th Ave. in New York City fastening 416s to lightpoles and leaving them there all day (they weren't mine of course). With creative use of foam windscreens, zip ties, plastic sheathing, garbage bags and tape (for rain proofing) you can safely fasten a microphone and turn it into something that even a motivated thief won't be interested in. I've never been in a situation where it wasn't possible to run cable. I'm assuming that you may not be compensated for set up time so I see why you're considering wireless. Just remember that wireless is an imperfect tecnology. You may have RF problems. Cable is pretty rock solid. If there's another radio or local TV crew there you can always try to get an effects feed from them. Good Luck! |
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#16
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
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#17
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
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#18
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
"Steve King" (Take our WORMBLOCK to reply) wrote in message news:Azamb.8117$ao4.15523@attbi_s51...
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1066956463k@trad... How about putting in a cable at the beginning of the season and leaving it there until the season ends? Cable is cheaper (and more reliable) than a wireless setup. Get a helper, spend an afternoon running it and tying it more or less permanently and it'll be there for every game. It'll probably last several seasons. My impression is that the OP is talking about "away" games, in which case he would be in a different stadium from week to week. To wit, "the colleges (note the plural) would never let me do it". Yes, exactly. I'd like to mic the crowd on the other side at away games, so we're in different stadiums. It's something of a misnomer to use the word "stadium." Think high school football field. The stands sometimes are concrete and rather substantial; other times they're metal or wood and not much more than temporary, at least in appearance. NEVER do the stands circle the field. Unless we could bury cable, or until somebody makes lawnmower-proof, waterproof, or it-never-could-be-tripped-on cable, cable is simply not an option. So I think it's wireless for me, if at all. I'm somewhat disappointed that there have been no suggestions for shotgun or parabolic mics which would potentially let me capture the far-side sound from the press box itself. For ease of setup, and security of the gear itself (i.e. greatly reduced chance of theft), that would be ideal. But I've no experience with these kinds of mics, and since nobody is suggesting 'em it must mean they wouldn't work for me. I'm grateful for all the discussion! Thanks. -John |
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#19
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
George wrote in message ...
In article , Actually, the cable is tougher to do than you might realize. These small press boxes and small football facilities (Division III colleage facilities are more like a typical high school Just my opinion as someone who has done years of wiring temp lines in all kinds of crowded facilities you will have a easier time dressing the wire than establishing a reliable radio link from across a stadium on anything less than full on pro wireless(read over 1000$ a channel) Thanks for your thoughts, George -- the real world experience you're talking about is really helpful to me. What I'm learning is that wireless is the only way (in my situation) to go ... and that it will be a challenge to have reliable wireless without investing the right dollar amount. Regarding running cables: Yeah, I've no doubt it could be done with sufficient thought and creativity and time. What I might have been less-than-clear about in my posts is that I really only want to do this -- to mic crowd noise from the other side of the football field -- at away games, whch means each away game broadcast is at a different location. It's a small market radio station I work for. We're a four-person crew (the radio guys for the other teams' stations, if they even have radio coverage, are usually only two people), and we get to the football field on the day of the broadcast with one to three hours to set up before we're on the air. We can't run cables once per season -- we're only at each college once every two years! We have no time to scout out a way to run the wire, much less dress it for safety and reliability. Sigh. Anyway, yeah, the idea is certainly proving to be challenging to realize. I appreciate your thoughts. -John |
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#20
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
I'm a second audio for sports television broadcast
and some radio in New York (that's how I support my gear lust). I've never been in a situation where it wasn't possible to run cable. I'm assuming that you may not be compensated for set up time so I see why you're considering wireless. Oh, it's not at all about compensation. (I'm in small market radio. For our football games, the four of us get paid $25 each, home or away. Not per hour -- $25 total per person for the whole game. Why do we do it? Love of the broadcast and love of the game. Small market radio, my friends! ... not that I'm trying to start a new thread here.) It really is about time and scale. I don't know how many radio stations are in New York City ... If there are 300, I guarantee you that my small-market station in west-central Indiana depends daily on a quality of gear and on a quantity of personnel that even the most-poorly-equipped of NYC's 300 stations would fall over laughing at. Regarding time: At four people, our football broadcast crew is already twice as big as the typical opposing team's radio crew -- if they even have a radio station which covers them. There's our play-by-play guy, two color commentators, and the on-site engineer -- me. Even assuming I could find a secure, safe physical path to run cable from the (usually small) press box around the field to the far-side stands, and assuming that the college we're at on a given Saturday would let me do it in the first place, I simply wouldn't have time to do it. We have usually between one and three hours to set up before we're on the air. We don't arrive days ahead of time like an ABC or ESPN television crew does. ... Just remember that wireless is an imperfect tecnology. Indeed. I really appreciate your suggestions. Over the past couple of days, there have been a lot of responses to my original post (thanks, everybody!). If shotgun or parabolic from the press box itself can't get me the audio from crowd on the far side (which, I should say again, is something we only want at away games, so I can't run wire in advance), it sounds like something wireless placed in front of the far-side crowd is the way to go. And that if I want it to be reliable, I might have to sink more dollars into the wireless gear. If there's another radio or local TV crew there you can always try to get an effects feed from them. Here's where I get to talk about scale: You must be thinking NYC here, or any kind of televised (i.e. Division I) college broadcast. Local TV crew? We cover the local Division III college ... There's no television! There isn't even a flunkie cameraman gathering B roll footage for 10 seconds of coverage on the late news. If there's other radio -- not always a sure thing -- well, I can honestly say that I have never seen another radio crew bring as many people or as much gear every Saturday like my station does. Effects feed? If there was gonna be one, it would be what I would feed to them, not the reverse. I should stop my rant here. ;-) I can only dream of working in a broadcast environment like yours. What we have here is small market radio ... with cassette-deck highlights replays, duct-taped headsets, and goofy ideas for far-side crowd mics. We're just trying to make our broadcast sound like we're a bigger operation than we really are, and we're enjoying what we do in our tiny, tiny little corner of the radio world. -John |
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#21
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
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#22
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
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#23
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
In article znr1067033557k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes: So I think it's wireless for me, if at all. I'm somewhat disappointed that there have been no suggestions for shotgun or parabolic mics I suppose you could experiment with a parabolic reflector. Radio Shack used to have one that was intended for recording birds and frogs. You won't like it. Basically it's not particularly useful below around 500C or above 4KC or so; pattern gets really weird outside the narrow passband because of the diameter of the reflector being insufficient on the bottom end, and because of internal standing wave issues on the top end. It is no fun at all. Other than perhaps the Audio Technica (and I thing Gefell has a similar) phased array mic, shotguns don't have nearly a narrow enough pattern and sufficient gain to reach across a playing field. The AT is good at removing individual noise sources, but it won't do anything to remove overall reverberation and make things sound closer. I acutally like the idea of sample playback of pre-recorded crowd noises. Push one button and you get cheers, push another button and you get boos. And it would be a way to use all those Tapecasters that are piling up at the transmitter site. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#24
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Crowd mic for radio broadcast at small football stadiums
"John" wrote in message om... George wrote in message ... In article , Actually, the cable is tougher to do than you might realize. These small press boxes and small football facilities (Division III colleage facilities are more like a typical high school Just my opinion as someone who has done years of wiring temp lines in all kinds of crowded facilities you will have a easier time dressing the wire than establishing a reliable radio link from across a stadium on anything less than full on pro wireless(read over 1000$ a channel) Thanks for your thoughts, George -- the real world experience you're talking about is really helpful to me. What I'm learning is that wireless is the only way (in my situation) to go ... and that it will be a challenge to have reliable wireless without investing the right dollar amount. Regarding running cables: Yeah, I've no doubt it could be done with sufficient thought and creativity and time. What I might have been less-than-clear about in my posts is that I really only want to do this -- to mic crowd noise from the other side of the football field -- at away games, whch means each away game broadcast is at a different location. It's a small market radio station I work for. We're a four-person crew (the radio guys for the other teams' stations, if they even have radio coverage, are usually only two people), and we get to the football field on the day of the broadcast with one to three hours to set up before we're on the air. We can't run cables once per season -- we're only at each college once every two years! We have no time to scout out a way to run the wire, much less dress it for safety and reliability. Sigh. Anyway, yeah, the idea is certainly proving to be challenging to realize. I appreciate your thoughts. -John John get a dozen fans to sit on the broadcast side and chear at the right times run through a 12 voice chorus or tight echo it will sound like a whole stand of folks Peace george |
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