[genericaudioperson]

Hello,

Is there a hypercardioid or cardioid mic or (supercardioid?) mic known
for good off-axis response? Upon the advice of r.a.p., I have the
Yamaha book ordered. Hopefully that will bring some more insight.
I'm guessing that book won't detail individual mic brand and model
recommendations, however.

As a reference, I miced up a handful of singers with a large diaphragm
cardioid condenser mic through a PA. I liked the on-axis response,
but the greater evil was the off-axis response. I'm paying a lot of
attention to off-axis response upon the recommendation of Mr. Dorsey
and others. It seems in live sound avoiding hell is more important
than getting into heaven.

Besides the disappointing off-axis response, I became concerned about
the overall coverage width. I think you will need more coverage than a
single cardioid. Otherwise the ensemble would sound smaller than it
really is, because the people off to the sides won't pick up as much
and will be off-axis. The other people weren't there, so I had to
fill in the blanks in my head on what the people off to the side would
sound like, and I came up with two conclusions: they will either sound
bad or not be heard much at all.

So I was thinking maybe a coincident pair of hypercardioids would be a
good be for micing a mid-size choir for sound reinforcement. The
other idea was a three mic setup with the coincident pair and the
large diaphragm, or some variation.

In another post, Mr. Dorsey mentioned the Electro-Voice N/D468 as
being a good supercardioid mic. But I'm not sure if that mic works
well for a coincident pair choir setup.

There are a number of hand held mics out there (someone mentioned an
Audix OM7) that have hypercardioid patterns. But is it strange to
area mic with a "rugged" mic? I would think you would want a mic
closer to a KM-84 design rather than a shout into the mic rock band
microphone for area micing.

I would like to keep the cost of the mic pair up to $400 used/new, so
I know that knocks out a lot of the nice stuff. I'm not too biased
toward brands, because even a cheesy company can sometimes have one or
two really good models. I'm more biased toward recommendations :-)

It seems that it's most important to get the right idea more than the
best brand. For example, if you tried to single mic with an expensive
mic, but the situation called for a coincident pair, then the lower-
priced coincident pair would produce a better result because it was
the right idea.

[Paul Stamler[_2_]]

"genericaudioperson" wrote in message
...
Is there a hypercardioid or cardioid mic or (supercardioid?) mic known
for good off-axis response? Upon the advice of r.a.p., I have the
Yamaha book ordered. Hopefully that will bring some more insight.
I'm guessing that book won't detail individual mic brand and model
recommendations, however.

As a reference, I miced up a handful of singers with a large diaphragm
cardioid condenser mic through a PA. I liked the on-axis response,
but the greater evil was the off-axis response. I'm paying a lot of
attention to off-axis response upon the recommendation of Mr. Dorsey
and others. It seems in live sound avoiding hell is more important
than getting into heaven.

Look on e-bay for some used Electro-Voice RE15s.

Peace,
Paul

[genericaudioperson]

Thanks, Paul.

It looks like the RE16 is now the current production model. I looked
at pictures of both. They seem to be the same thing. Do these mics
have some mild shotgun mic properties? I see some ridges on the side
of the mic. I'm wondering if those are there to cancel sounds from
the side.

I totally forgot about these mics. The product literature emphasizes
a neutral off-axis response, which is ideal. Thanks for the idea.

[Arny Krueger]

"genericaudioperson" wrote
in message


Is there a hypercardioid or cardioid mic or
(supercardioid?) mic known for good off-axis response?

Depends what you call good. Both of these mics are prized because they don't
have that much response, off-axis.

Few if any practical cardiod mics have what you'd call smooth off-axis
response. As others have commented recently, most of them lose much of their
directivity below 200 Hz. That means that their off-axis response has a big
hump below 200 Hz, unless the mic's response is also rolling off at the same
time.

I understand that certain Neumann and Schoeps cardioid and hypercardioid
mics have smoother than average off-axis response. However, I would expect
that to be true above 200 Hz.

Upon the advice of r.a.p., I have the Yamaha book
ordered. Hopefully that will bring some more insight.

Good move. Great book.

I'm guessing that book won't detail individual mic brand
and model recommendations, however.

You're right about that.

As a reference, I miced up a handful of singers with a
large diaphragm cardioid condenser mic through a PA. I
liked the on-axis response, but the greater evil was the
off-axis response. I'm paying a lot of attention to
off-axis response upon the recommendation of Mr. Dorsey
and others. It seems in live sound avoiding hell is more
important than getting into heaven.


IME live sound is meatball surgery. As Mr. Dorsey correctly observed, it
often very much depends on the directivity of speakers and microphones, but
below 200 Hz most mics and speakers tend to be increasingly omnidirectional
as the frequencies go down. People have built a few cardioid speakers with
good LF response, but this seems to be an emerging technology right now.

Besides the disappointing off-axis response, I became
concerned about the overall coverage width. I think you
will need more coverage than a single cardioid.

Depends on the acoustic size of the sound source. A single person is not a
bad approximation of a point source. A choir is anything but. There's an
ongoing controversy as to how to mic a choir. Some use coincident pairs,
some use spaced mics, some use a little of each, as the situation requires.

Otherwise the ensemble would sound smaller than it really
is, because the people off to the sides won't pick up as
much and will be off-axis.

It's not always quite that bad, as choirs often work in lofts or acoustic
shells that tend to focus sound.

But smart choral leaders working under mics just might put their best
singers towards the middle. I think some tend to do that, anyhow.

The other people weren't
there, so I had to fill in the blanks in my head on what
the people off to the side would sound like, and I came
up with two conclusions: they will either sound bad or
not be heard much at all.

Remember, that many people who are doing live sound are struggling to get
performers heard at all. For example last night I was struggling to get 2
cellos heard. Ironically, I had no problem getting just one to be heard last
week.

So I was thinking maybe a coincident pair of
hypercardioids would be a good be for micing a mid-size
choir for sound reinforcement.

Hold that thought.

The other idea was a
three mic setup with the coincident pair and the large
diaphragm, or some variation.

I use a coincident pair for choir festivals where there is no SR, and a
coincident pair plus two spot mics when there is.

In another post, Mr. Dorsey mentioned the Electro-Voice
N/D468 as being a good supercardioid mic. But I'm not
sure if that mic works well for a coincident pair choir
setup.

Never had the pleasure. My hypercardioids are almost all Audix. My favorite
coincident pair for SR is 2 OM6s with the pop filters removed, and the two
bare cartridges edge to edge, almost touching. For recording, I like the
NT-4.

There are a number of hand held mics out there (someone
mentioned an Audix OM7) that have hypercardioid patterns.

I would not use the OM7 for this purpose because it is a low output mic
designed for really loud vocalists.

But is it strange to area mic with a "rugged" mic?

OM5 or OM6s can work.

I would think you would want a mic closer to a KM-84 design
rather than a shout into the mic rock band microphone for
area micing.

See my reservations about the OM7.

I would like to keep the cost of the mic pair up to $400
used/new, so I know that knocks out a lot of the nice
stuff. I'm not too biased toward brands, because even a
cheesy company can sometimes have one or two really good
models. I'm more biased toward recommendations :-)

The value champ for hypercardioids for area micing is the Samson C01. I
have a pair of these in shock mounts for my local choir. They say it is
a cardioid, but the user manual and my experience with it says
hypercardioid.

It seems that it's most important to get the right idea
more than the best brand.

Agreed.

For example, if you tried to
single mic with an expensive mic, but the situation
called for a coincident pair, then the lower- priced
coincident pair would produce a better result because it
was the right idea.

Hold that thought. the quality of the mic matters more when you are
considering mics that being used properly.

[Scott Dorsey]

genericaudioperson wrote:

It looks like the RE16 is now the current production model. I looked
at pictures of both. They seem to be the same thing. Do these mics
have some mild shotgun mic properties? I see some ridges on the side
of the mic. I'm wondering if those are there to cancel sounds from
the side.

This is the venting for the Variable-D system, which reduces proximity
effect. The Variable-D stuff doesn't do you any real good for distant
miking, but it doesn't hurt either.

I totally forgot about these mics. The product literature emphasizes
a neutral off-axis response, which is ideal. Thanks for the idea.

It would be a good choice. In the cheap range I'd also look at the N/D 468
which isn't ideal but works better for the application than you'd expect.

In the mid-priced range I would look at the AT 4053, the Oktava 012 with
a hypercardioid capsule, and the Sennheiser 441.

Also, believe it or not, the RCA BK-5 does a shockingly good job for
that application. It's not as cheap as it used to be, though. I use
it every year for a Welsh choir at a celtic festival under some really
awful acoustical conditions.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

genericaudioperson wrote:

Is there a hypercardioid or cardioid mic or (supercardioid?) mic known
for good off-axis response?

I like the Sennheiser MD441 for what I perceive to be those very
properties: hypercdardioid pattern and excellent off-axis rejection.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[Paul Stamler[_2_]]

"genericaudioperson" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Paul.

It looks like the RE16 is now the current production model. I looked
at pictures of both. They seem to be the same thing. Do these mics
have some mild shotgun mic properties? I see some ridges on the side
of the mic. I'm wondering if those are there to cancel sounds from
the side.

I totally forgot about these mics. The product literature emphasizes
a neutral off-axis response, which is ideal. Thanks for the idea.

They're very similar, but the RE16 is a little less flat, both on-axis and
off-axis. Still a very decent mic; I just like the RE15 better.

The RE15/16 is hypercardioid, not shotgun; the vent along the side gives it
the unusual property of having little or no proximity effect, despite the
pattern.

Peace,
Paul

[Rich Skinner]

genericaudioperson wrote:
Hello,

Is there a hypercardioid or cardioid mic or (supercardioid?) mic known
for good off-axis response? Upon the advice of r.a.p., I have the
Yamaha book ordered

The Schoeps are not "interference" type microphones, and as a result
have terrific off-axis response. Something like Sennheiser have a
phasey, non-coherent off-axis response (although lower in level).

[Arny Krueger]

"Rich Skinner" wrote in message

genericaudioperson wrote:
Hello,

Is there a hypercardioid or cardioid mic or
(supercardioid?) mic known for good off-axis response?
Upon the advice of r.a.p., I have the Yamaha book ordered

The Schoeps are not "interference" type microphones, and
as a result have terrific off-axis response. Something
like Sennheiser have a phasey, non-coherent off-axis
response (although lower in level).

Please expand on that line of thought, if possible.

[Scott Dorsey]

Rich Skinner wrote:
The Schoeps are not "interference" type microphones, and as a result
have terrific off-axis response. Something like Sennheiser have a
phasey, non-coherent off-axis response (although lower in level).

Believe it or not, Schoeps has finally introduced an interference tube
microphone, after several decades of swearing that they never would. Seems
a lot of video people have been demanding one from them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Rich Skinner" wrote in message

genericaudioperson wrote:
Hello,

Is there a hypercardioid or cardioid mic or
(supercardioid?) mic known for good off-axis response?
Upon the advice of r.a.p., I have the Yamaha book ordered

The Schoeps are not "interference" type microphones, and
as a result have terrific off-axis response. Something
like Sennheiser have a phasey, non-coherent off-axis
response (although lower in level).

Please expand on that line of thought, if possible.

He's referring to the Sennheiser 416/416, not the MKH-20.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:
"Rich Skinner" wrote in message

genericaudioperson wrote:
Hello,

Is there a hypercardioid or cardioid mic or
(supercardioid?) mic known for good off-axis response?
Upon the advice of r.a.p., I have the Yamaha book
ordered

The Schoeps are not "interference" type microphones, and
as a result have terrific off-axis response. Something
like Sennheiser have a phasey, non-coherent off-axis
response (although lower in level).

Please expand on that line of thought, if possible.

He's referring to the Sennheiser 416/416, not the MKH-20.

That's helpful but I was thinking of the differnece between an interference
type microphone and some other kind.

AFAIK all directional microphones are dependent on a kind of interference
between different acoustical signals.

[Ty Ford]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:25:50 -0500, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ) :

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:
"Rich Skinner" wrote in message

genericaudioperson wrote:
Hello,

Is there a hypercardioid or cardioid mic or
(supercardioid?) mic known for good off-axis response?
Upon the advice of r.a.p., I have the Yamaha book
ordered

The Schoeps are not "interference" type microphones, and
as a result have terrific off-axis response. Something
like Sennheiser have a phasey, non-coherent off-axis
response (although lower in level).

Please expand on that line of thought, if possible.

He's referring to the Sennheiser 416/416, not the MKH-20.

That's helpful but I was thinking of the differnece between an interference
type microphone and some other kind.

AFAIK all directional microphones are dependent on a kind of interference
between different acoustical signals.



Well you're sort of right, but interference tubes perform a unique form of
directionality through the use of that slotted tube.

That makes them fairly directional at higher frequencies, but not so
directional at mid and low frequencies. That's also where they get into
trouble.

As the mids and lows bounce around the space, they get into the side of the
pattern, later, of course, than the more direct HF sound. The fact that they
do get in after bouncing is a problem because they get there later.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
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