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#1
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pick up dancers noise
Hi all,
I got a dance show in where is important to amplify the dancers noise (wich is very silent!) to the audience. the location is a small theatre and the stage is wood. The biggest problem is, obviously, the low gain before feedback. The low frequencies produced by the steps are the most difficult to deal with. I set up the micing in two section: One for the top frequencies using three crown boundary microphones placed in a half circle shape around the center of the stage; The other section is for the lower end, solved with cheap contact microphones (as the ones used to pick up some wooden musical instrument) placed directly on the stage surface. Anyone has other suggestions, wich may be more efficent and reiliable as mine? Any help will be appreciated. Bye ale |
#2
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Depends on what kind of dance noise you are picking up... The Crown PCC160
is one of the better mics out there for it. The Sanken CUB-1 also is pretty awesome and you may get more gain before feedback with it. If your system isn't EQ'd with a 30 band graphic, I'd also suggest doing that as you'll be able to get a lot more gain out of your mics. For Tap, I'll even go as far as to place a lav mic on the instep (above the arch) of the shoe. Putting the mic there is great for getting all the various tap, scratch and slide sounds. Beware, though, it is easy for the dancers to bump it and that isn't a pretty sound. --Ben -- Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Los Angeles, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies "ale" wrote in message ... Hi all, I got a dance show in where is important to amplify the dancers noise (wich is very silent!) to the audience. the location is a small theatre and the stage is wood. The biggest problem is, obviously, the low gain before feedback. The low frequencies produced by the steps are the most difficult to deal with. I set up the micing in two section: One for the top frequencies using three crown boundary microphones placed in a half circle shape around the center of the stage; The other section is for the lower end, solved with cheap contact microphones (as the ones used to pick up some wooden musical instrument) placed directly on the stage surface. Anyone has other suggestions, wich may be more efficent and reiliable as mine? Any help will be appreciated. Bye ale |
#3
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ale wrote:
Hi all, I got a dance show in where is important to amplify the dancers noise (wich is very silent!) to the audience. the location is a small theatre and the stage is wood. The biggest problem is, obviously, the low gain before feedback. The low frequencies produced by the steps are the most difficult to deal with. I set up the micing in two section: One for the top frequencies using three crown boundary microphones placed in a half circle shape around the center of the stage; The other section is for the lower end, solved with cheap contact microphones (as the ones used to pick up some wooden musical instrument) placed directly on the stage surface. Anyone has other suggestions, wich may be more efficent and reiliable as mine? Any help will be appreciated. Have the dancers go barefoot and prerecord the show. Harvey Gerst Indian Trail Recording Studio http://www.ITRstudio.com/ |
#4
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Harvey Gerst wrote:
ale wrote: Hi all, I got a dance show in where is important to amplify the dancers noise (wich is very silent!) to the audience. the location is a small theatre and the stage is wood. The biggest problem is, obviously, the low gain before feedback. The low frequencies produced by the steps are the most difficult to deal with. I set up the micing in two section: One for the top frequencies using three crown boundary microphones placed in a half circle shape around the center of the stage; The other section is for the lower end, solved with cheap contact microphones (as the ones used to pick up some wooden musical instrument) placed directly on the stage surface. Anyone has other suggestions, wich may be more efficent and reiliable as mine? Any help will be appreciated. Have the dancers go barefoot and prerecord the show. Harvey Gerst Indian Trail Recording Studio http://www.ITRstudio.com/ I mic dancers feet with SD condensors but if that is not enough for you I be some of the thin film transducers like the "Pick up the world" product woul contact (i think) www.putw.com or ask over at rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic a guy from the company hangs there UI think they call him DOC real name possibly Dave Enke george |
#5
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:31:01 +0000, ale wrote:
Hi all, I got a dance show in where is important to amplify the dancers noise (wich is very silent!) to the audience. the location is a small theatre and the stage is wood. The biggest problem is, obviously, the low gain before feedback. The low frequencies produced by the steps are the most difficult to deal with. I set up the micing in two section: One for the top frequencies using three crown boundary microphones placed in a half circle shape around the center of the stage; The other section is for the lower end, solved with cheap contact microphones (as the ones used to pick up some wooden musical instrument) placed directly on the stage surface. Hiya. I did a show touring show recently with moveable tap floors, and we had a play around with contact mics inside them, with a radio pack. The problem we had was that the delay between the direct sound from the PA and the acoustic sound from the floor's contact mics was annoying, and we could not get a consistent digital delay setting that sorted it (the PA was for reinforcement only). Also, the contact mics sensitivity fell off really fast if the dancers were not right on them, and it was too much loud when they were. We used cheap acoustic guitar contact mics too. We ended up using a few cheap cardiod SE1 condensers in the wings, a couple of feet of the ground and pointing somewhat upstage. All the black tat around the place kept most of the PA out of them. If the wings mics were about the same distance from the dancers as the dancers were from the PA, the timing issues were not too bad. This was just for a tap section of the show though (hence timing being critical), and we had more ambient signal to play with then you do. Not much help I'm afraid, other than to say you succeeded where I failed! Oh, one more thing... Perhaps making sure the PA's speaker cabs are not touching the stage floor might help a bit for low frequency feedback through the contact mics. Anyone has other suggestions, wich may be more efficent and reiliable as mine? Any help will be appreciated. Bye ale |
#6
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Harvey Gerst, just home from the Superbowl, wrote:
ale wrote: I got a dance show in where is important to amplify the dancers noise (wich is very silent!) to the audience. the location is a small theatre and the stage is wood. The biggest problem is, obviously, the low gain before feedback. The low frequencies produced by the steps are the most difficult to deal with. I set up the micing in two section: One for the top frequencies using three crown boundary microphones placed in a half circle shape around the center of the stage; The other section is for the lower end, solved with cheap contact microphones (as the ones used to pick up some wooden musical instrument) placed directly on the stage surface. Anyone has other suggestions, wich may be more efficent and reiliable as mine? Any help will be appreciated. Have the dancers go barefoot and prerecord the show. Hey, isn't that what Kevin Doyle's boys suggest? -- ha |
#7
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ale wrote:
I got a dance show in where is important to amplify the dancers noise (wich is very silent!) to the audience. Any help will be appreciated. I typically use PCC160s or other variants of PZMs. Usually five across the front, but I've used five across the front, two on each side and three on the upstage side. EQ and some judicious gain riding is important. I did a "Stomp" type of show a few years ago where I used 17 PZMs plus contact pickups on several of the dancers. Those pickups fed into effects synthesizers. Liam Harney uses wireless lavs on each shoe. I have Countryman B3s that I use with him. They are very effective, but EQ is again important to match the sound of each shoe. Of course, the company is picked up with the floor mics, and Liam is highlighted as necessary, and sometimes out of the mix depending on who's being featured. Part of their recent show is a percussion feature using buckets, drum sticks on the floor, and all manner of other "instruments". It's a fun and interesting twist on Irish step dancing, and since they usually play it downstage, good microphone placement and control helps to bring out all those nuances of uncommon percussion toys and the vocal "effects" produced by the dancers. Whatever you wind up doing, try to make it sound as natural as you can. If you're doing something like Flamenco that low end is part of the music. You've probably figured out that a show like this isn't a set and forget. You'll have to be controlling it continually (depending, of course, on the type of dance show it happens to be). TM |
#9
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:44:46 GMT, T Maki wrote:
great stuff snipped Whatever you wind up doing, try to make it sound as natural as you can. If you're doing something like Flamenco that low end is part of the music. Seeing real Flamenco for the first time was one of the high points of my experience. I can't even imagine what would be required technically to reproduce the sensation. I could believe an argument that it would be forever impossible, like ballet. Chris Hornbeck |
#10
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The Flamenco artists I've worked with (and, I'm sure, all
accomplished ones) actually play the resonances of the surfaces they are using - often a specially constructed table. It's very much like the resonant qualities in a tuned drum or a steel drum where the tones are played by the dancer's feet. If you really want a challenge, reinforce or record a steel drum orchestra. I did that several years back, and spent many hours at rehearsals and learning the attributes of both the construction and technique of steel drums. It was an interesting experience and a successful project. TM Chris Hornbeck wrote: Seeing real Flamenco for the first time was one of the high points of my experience. I can't even imagine what would be required technically to reproduce the sensation. |
#11
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Harvey Gerst ha scritto:
Have the dancers go barefoot and prerecord the show. Harvey Gerst Indian Trail Recording Studio http://www.ITRstudio.com/ not possible, Harvey. This is a modern dance show based on improvisation, and the dancers moves are not synchronized with music, simply THEY ARE THE MUSIC!! Prerecord them will be equal to a pop artist singing in playback, and we'll lose all the improvisation related benefits of the performance. regards, Ale |
#12
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In summer 1998 i worked on the show "Fuego y Flamenco" by Antonio
Marquez here in florence. I was very impressed by effectiveness of the micing solution used, four pcc160, equally distanced, placed on the front edge of stage aimed to the back. The sound of the shoes was very clear and loud, and really a big part of the music played live. But, flamenco dancers are VERY noisly!!! They jump and beat the stage with very hard shoes and produces much grater sound level as barefoot modern dancers. Shoes noise in flamenco is intended to be effective WITHOUT the use of microphones or PA, equipements that are available only il the last decades. Sadly i need to reinforce the "silence"! The dancers in my show are barefoot, but the little sound they produce is a great part of the project and i'm looking for the most reliable solution available. Simply i want to get the higher possible sound level from a barefoot dancer jumping and walkin on a stage. Yes, a very big challenge, not so easy as flamenco! |
#13
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"ale" wrote in message ... Harvey Gerst ha scritto: Have the dancers go barefoot and prerecord the show. Harvey Gerst Indian Trail Recording Studio http://www.ITRstudio.com/ not possible, Harvey. This is a modern dance show based on improvisation, and the dancers moves are not synchronized with music, simply THEY ARE THE MUSIC!! Prerecord them will be equal to a pop artist singing in playback, and we'll lose all the improvisation related benefits of the performance. I ran sound on a series of stage shows once where we had to get good foot sounds for the dance numbers, and what worked pretty well was some PZM's, each mounted on a 1'x1' piece of 1/4" thick clear plexiglass. I used three of them, evenly spaced across the stage, they obviously weren't completely invisible, but with the clear plexi, they were reasonably unobtrusive, and certainly didn't look any worse sitting up there than did the mic stands used by solo vocalists. They also worked great for picking up chorus vocals! We used simple 8" or 10" long (can't recall exactly) chunks of 2x4's painted black with an angled slot cut in them lengthwise to slide the plexi into as a mount. Dunno if something like that would work in your case. Neil Henderson |
#14
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T Maki wrote: The Flamenco artists I've worked with (and, I'm sure, all accomplished ones) actually play the resonances of the surfaces they are using - often a specially constructed table. It's very much like the resonant qualities in a tuned drum or a steel drum where the tones are played by the dancer's feet. Live Flamenco has been perhaps my most joyous and challenging work in live sound. The troups I work with usually use a hollow sprung floor, which acts as a giant resonator, which creates a LOT of acoustic energy - one dancer literally put his heel THROUGH 3/4" MDF - TWICE - in one show. This creates lots of problems as well, particularly in smaller rooms. Until you get to big halls, you have to think in terms of sound reinforcement, not merely amplification. The OP may want to keep this in mind regarding low frequencies. Chris Hornbeck wrote: Seeing real Flamenco for the first time was one of the high points of my experience. I can't even imagine what would be required technically to reproduce the sensation. It's always like Scotty in Star Trek - "Cap'n, I canna give yew na mooore..." But the passion of the performers forces you to kick it up another notch. FWIW, to pick up feet, I usually surround the dance area with 5-7 mics (2-3 downstage, 1 SR, 1 SL, 1-2 upstage), usually 57s, 87s, or PZMs, tho I don't feel the PZMs I've used have the reach I need. Then I ride faders like a madman - oh, for a matrix joystick instead of faders... To the OP: See if you can hang 2-4 mics over the dancers. If it doesn't interfere with sight lines, it will give you more options. Contact pickups are a bear to work with, unless you can find a set of Helpinstill or C-Ducer piano pickups. Enjoy riding the wild bull, you'll be a better person for it. Mikey Wozniak Nova Music Productions This sig is haiku |
#15
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On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:52:57 GMT, T Maki wrote:
The Flamenco artists I've worked with (and, I'm sure, all accomplished ones) actually play the resonances of the surfaces they are using - often a specially constructed table. It's very much like the resonant qualities in a tuned drum or a steel drum where the tones are played by the dancer's feet. I've only seen one troupe, the Maria Benetez Theatre Flamenco. They have a regular summer gig in a hotel in Santa Fe (the one overlooking the military cemetery, on the road out to the opry), and they are .. well, what can I say? the real thing. Everyone on stage, instrumentalists, dancers on a breath break, everyone, is keeping elaborate beats going on anything handy or stomping on the floor; playing it, as you say, like an instrument. In a basement room seating maybe 200, it's fairly loud. And the level of communication (sorry, can't think of a better word) is deafening. If you really want a challenge, reinforce or record a steel drum orchestra. I did that several years back, and spent many hours at rehearsals and learning the attributes of both the construction and technique of steel drums. It was an interesting experience and a successful project. Sounds like that would be even further beyond my abilities. Wouldn't have minded observing the process though. Never too old to learn, s'what I say. Thanks, Chris Hornbeck |
#16
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ale wrote:
The dancers in my show are barefoot, but the little sound they produce is a great part of the project and i'm looking for the most reliable solution available. Simply i want to get the higher possible sound level from a barefoot dancer jumping and walkin on a stage. I think you're going to have to work to tailor the low end, rolling it off gently. I don't think with sources that quiet you're going to be able to get the bottom as loud as I think you're imagining (the _nerve_ g), and that if you try to get that portion of the spectrum so loud you'll get mud and/or feedback. As someone said, make sure the FOH cabinets aren't sitting right on the stage surface, but then work with the low end to get some balance against SPL. -- ha |
#17
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hank alrich ha scritto:
As someone said, make sure the FOH cabinets aren't sitting right on the stage surface, but then work with the low end to get some balance against SPL. -- ha Already done, the cabinets are suspended from the ceiling, this was the first thing i done. Of course i'm goin to eq the whole thing to get the most from it, psychoacoustically using the armonics to figure aut the presence of the bottom end, but this will be the second step! The first step is getting the most gain from the bottom end, to be sure living far away from possible feedbacks during the show. bye and thanks ale |
#18
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ale wrote:
The dancers in my show are barefoot, but the little sound they produce is a great part of the project and i'm looking for the most reliable solution available. Simply i want to get the higher possible sound level from a barefoot dancer jumping and walkin on a stage. Damn, I'm good; at least I got the barefoot part right. Shotgun mics might work well, or at least good enough. Can you have a riser for the dancers and mic them from underneath? Try taking apart some cheap headphones and screwing them face down into the stage, then use the phones as mics. That way, you can have a number of pickup points that might not feed back, but will amplify only nearby sources. The most workable solution that I can see is trying to get the mics VERY close to the dancers, underneath might be best. Harvey Gerst Indian Trail Recording Studio http://www.ITRstudio.com/ |
#19
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On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:08:45 GMT, ale wrote:
Simply i want to get the higher possible sound level from a barefoot dancer jumping and walkin on a stage. Yes, a very big challenge, not so easy as flamenco! You might have to consider some non-acoustic pickup solution. Maybe something like accelerometers coupled to the floor. Just at first blush, microphones seem a couple orders of magnitude too sensitive to the SR speakers to be useful. Good fortune, sounds very challenging indeed, Chris Hornbeck "Don't feed the band until after you have a keeper vocal. Cut everything at once and mix it live to stereo. Top, tail, send to mastering. Order pizza." -ha |
#20
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Harvey Gerst ha scritto:
Damn, I'm good; at least I got the barefoot part right. Shotgun mics might work well, or at least good enough. Can you have a riser for the dancers and mic them from underneath? no, get a raiser is not possible, but the under-stage is accessible. Try taking apart some cheap headphones and screwing them face down into the stage, then use the phones as mics. That way, you can have a number of pickup points that might not feed back, but will amplify only nearby sources. nice idea, i want to try with small transistor-radio speakers (even cheaper) and put it to the lower side of the stage floor. This should minimize the feedback. The most workable solution that I can see is trying to get the mics VERY close to the dancers, underneath might be best. Harvey Gerst Indian Trail Recording Studio http://www.ITRstudio.com/ thanks |
#21
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"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message ... On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:52:57 GMT, T Maki wrote: The Flamenco artists I've worked with (and, I'm sure, all accomplished ones) actually play the resonances of the surfaces they are using - often a specially constructed table. It's very much like the resonant qualities in a tuned drum or a steel drum where the tones are played by the dancer's feet. I've only seen one troupe, the Maria Benetez Theatre Flamenco. They have a regular summer gig in a hotel in Santa Fe (the one overlooking the military cemetery, on the road out to the opry), and they are .. well, what can I say? the real thing. Ah, the lovely Maria Benetez. I was recording the Gala for Opera Theatre of St. Louis, with a shock-mounted RE-16 peeking over the lip of the stage to pick up the announcer. Ms. Benetez did an unnannounced guest spot, danced downstage, and danced on my RE-16. Needless to say, up in my perch in the rehearsal room, I watched the woofers of my monitors leap forward; fortunately, they survived. The RE-16, however, was displaced about an inch downward, so it bounced on the stage whenever anyone walked around, which the announcer did most of the time. None of his comments were useable. We wound up recording voice-overs with our staff announcer back at the station to replace all of his commentaries, which was just as well, because he was something of a horse's ass anyway. Maria. She sure can dance. Peace, Paul |
#22
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On 16 Feb 2005 21:59:34 -0800, "novamusic"
wrote: Contact pickups are a bear to work with, unless you can find a set of Helpinstill or C-Ducer piano pickups. Sounds like what Harvey is getting at. How should the OP mount them? Sounds like underneath the floor is possible if advised. Great info, thanks, Chris Hornbeck "Well, it makes a certain kind of nutty sense." -Paul Stamler |
#23
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On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:29:02 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote: Ah, the lovely Maria Benetez. Hope your RE16 survived; love those mic's. But I guess there are worse ways to go ... NRGNGRM (think R. Crumb). Chris Hornbeck "Well, it makes a certain kind of nutty sense." -Paul Stamler |
#24
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#25
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You could try to use small diagram condencers on table stands for the mid
and high freq. For the low freq. try a contact mic under the stage (I mean under the wood, directly under the dancers). I don't know if that is easy for you or not but here in Italy is always possible to go under the stage... "ale" ha scritto nel messaggio ... Hi all, I got a dance show in where is important to amplify the dancers noise (wich is very silent!) to the audience. the location is a small theatre and the stage is wood. The biggest problem is, obviously, the low gain before feedback. The low frequencies produced by the steps are the most difficult to deal with. I set up the micing in two section: One for the top frequencies using three crown boundary microphones placed in a half circle shape around the center of the stage; The other section is for the lower end, solved with cheap contact microphones (as the ones used to pick up some wooden musical instrument) placed directly on the stage surface. Anyone has other suggestions, wich may be more efficent and reiliable as mine? Any help will be appreciated. Bye ale |
#26
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T Maki wrote: The Flamenco artists I've worked with (and, I'm sure, all accomplished ones) actually play the resonances of the surfaces they are using - often a specially constructed table. It's very much like the resonant qualities in a tuned drum or a steel drum where the tones are played by the dancer's feet. We had the "Riverdance" Composer on our Morning show several years back, and I told our Steve Doocy that the music tracks for the large ensemble pieces have the taps embedded in the mix. He was kinda mad at me for telling him that actually, because then he felt compelled to ask on air if it was true. The guy explained that sound reinforcement in multiple touring venues is difficult to always get right, so there are some taps in the music mixed in to augment the live audio, for the audience's sake. Barefoot dancing is certainly a more difficult live micing challenge than the Riverdance ensemble. If you really want a challenge, reinforce or record a steel drum orchestra. I did that several years back, and spent many hours at rehearsals and learning the attributes of both the construction and technique of steel drums. It was an interesting experience and a successful project. I once had to mix a 100 piece Steel Drum Orchestra in FX Network's old Ballroom studio (back in the "TV made fresh daily" days.) 3 AKG 414's hung 15' up spaced over the Orchestra sections and one hung up over the drum kit worked pretty well really. They need a _lot_ of air. Not that I had any time or many choices about how I was going to do it though... g Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Staff Audio / Fox News / M-AES "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#27
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WillStG wrote:
We had the "Riverdance" Composer on our Morning show several years back, and I told our Steve Doocy that the music tracks for the large ensemble pieces have the taps embedded in the mix. When my wife and I were in Las Vegas a couple of years ago for NAB (...I think...too many trade shows to keep track of), we saw "Riverdance", and it was obvious to me that that is true. The sound system in the show room was so loud (not bad, just nearly overwhelmingly loud) that one could not even hear anything coming off the floor. Liam's show isn't technically as huge and complicated as Michael's, of course, but their tracks are recorded (and recorded well), but no embedded taps. And they are a great group to work with. I once had to mix a 100 piece Steel Drum Orchestra in FX Network's old Ballroom studio (back in the "TV made fresh daily" days.) 3 AKG 414's hung 15' up spaced over the Orchestra sections and one hung up over the drum kit worked pretty well really. That's really about all you need. The group I worked with didn't have a drum kit. About the only difference in your setup and mine was that I used four PZMs on the floor downstage of the cellos and basses. The director said during playback at the sessions that he'd never heard the basses recorded with such clarity and fullness before. Next time (and it's about time for them to do another album) I'm going to try some additional mic positions low and downstage of the tenors. TM |
#28
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:52:57 GMT, T Maki wrote: I've only seen one troupe, the Maria Benetez Theatre Flamenco. They have a regular summer gig in a hotel in Santa Fe (the one overlooking the military cemetery, on the road out to the opry), and they are .. well, what can I say? the real thing. I saw them in Albuquerque for an outdoor show, and even outdoors it was pretty loud, they only used mics for the vocals and other side instruments. I must say it was pretty awesome. |
#29
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Chris Hornbeck wrote: On 16 Feb 2005 21:59:34 -0800, "novamusic" wrote: Contact pickups are a bear to work with, unless you can find a set of Helpinstill or C-Ducer piano pickups. Sounds like what Harvey is getting at. How should the OP mount them? Sounds like underneath the floor is possible if advised. This is the potential advantage of a sprung floor. The troupe I work with uses MDF or plywood sheets over 2x2 or 2x4. That gives a couple inches to slip a pzm or contact transducer from beneath. IF you can find a way to place it, set it down, and keep it in the right spot. IF you can even get the troupe to leave an opening in the frame... The OP has his work cut out for him. The soft parts of the show are the hardest to deal with, in terms of gain before feedback. As you would expect. With moving dancers, you have to think in 3 dimensions and try every approach. Mikey Wozniak Nova Music Productions This sig is haiku |
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