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#1
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
you know, every generation has complained about the decline of
civilization - you can find quotes from Pliny the elder about this, you can certainly amuse yourself reading about the evils of rock and roll, or the evils of Mozart and how society will be in Hades soon. What you are seeing is the reaction to change, not to decline. Just because YOU (Nietzsche) or don't like it, doesn't mean that it is bad. Tehre is some of this in the pro/anti vinyl arguements, and there is some truth on both sides. Let's not confuse personal preference with the long term destiny of humankind. wrote in message ... Sonnova wrote: Well, the point is that mass entertainment, of all kinds, is an indicator of the health of society. That all forms of pop entertainment have consistently declined since WWII shows that our society is in decline. The fact that YOU might like the products of that decline or that I might not is largely irrelevant. That change is occurring, like it or not. Nietzsche once noted that when people's tastes change, it is rarely for the better. I think he has something there. Well, FN did not like Wagner either, so there is no accounting for taste. But, to be fair, Nietzsche's criticism of Wagner was not mostly music related, although that was a component. In the latter, he was, of course, aesthetically wrong, inasmuch as Wagner was one of the four or five top composers within our Western tradition. However, I know what you mean. Michael |
#2
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:37:03 -0700, William Noble wrote
(in article ): you know, every generation has complained about the decline of civilization - you can find quotes from Pliny the elder about this, you can certainly amuse yourself reading about the evils of rock and roll, or the evils of Mozart and how society will be in Hades soon. What you are seeing is the reaction to change, not to decline. Just because YOU (Nietzsche) or don't like it, doesn't mean that it is bad. I defy you to say that rap and hip-hop are "good". They're bad, and when change results in general "bad", that's decline. Tehre is some of this in the pro/anti vinyl arguements, and there is some truth on both sides. Let's not confuse personal preference with the long term destiny of humankind. I try not to make that mistake. |
#3
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:37:03 -0700, William Noble wrote (in article ): you know, every generation has complained about the decline of civilization - you can find quotes from Pliny the elder about this, you can certainly amuse yourself reading about the evils of rock and roll, or the evils of Mozart and how society will be in Hades soon. What you are seeing is the reaction to change, not to decline. Just because YOU (Nietzsche) or don't like it, doesn't mean that it is bad. I defy you to say that rap and hip-hop are "good". shrug Some hip-hop is good. Some 'classical' is good. Some isn't. So? I defy you to defend your position on anything other than purely subjective-preference grounds. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
#4
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:50:33 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:37:03 -0700, William Noble wrote (in article ): you know, every generation has complained about the decline of civilization - you can find quotes from Pliny the elder about this, you can certainly amuse yourself reading about the evils of rock and roll, or the evils of Mozart and how society will be in Hades soon. What you are seeing is the reaction to change, not to decline. Just because YOU (Nietzsche) or don't like it, doesn't mean that it is bad. I defy you to say that rap and hip-hop are "good". shrug Some hip-hop is good. Some 'classical' is good. Some isn't. I'm not contrasting pop vs classical. I'm contrasting today's pop with the pop music of earlier generations. So? I defy you to defend your position on anything other than purely subjective-preference grounds. There's nothing to defend. Its just there for anyone with any perspective to see (or rather, hear) for themselves. |
#5
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
On Sep 20, 11:08*am, Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:37:03 -0700, William Noble wrote (in article ): you know, every generation has complained about the decline of civilization - you can find quotes from Pliny the elder about this, you can certainly amuse yourself reading about the evils of rock and roll, or the evils of Mozart and how society will be in Hades soon. What you are seeing is the reaction to change, not to decline. *Just because YOU (Nietzsche) or don't like it, doesn't mean that it is bad. I defy you to say that rap and hip-hop are "good". *They're bad, and when change results in general "bad", that's decline. * Yikes! The Romans had this figured out some thousands of years ago: Primus: De gustibus non est disputandum. et secundus: Damnant quod non intellegunt. I will leave you to find the translations. some of this in the pro/anti vinyl arguements, and there is some truth on both sides. *Let's not confuse personal preference with the long term destiny of humankind. I try not to make that mistake. But, with respect, you just did. Children are forever attempting to shock their parents. It is part of the separation process. After the 60s, sex-drugs-rock-and-roll, free love, tune in, turn on, drop out, we are pretty hard to shock. Imagine what our grandchildren will need to do to shock their parents - and what you might think of that? Civilizations decline for any number of reasons - mostly having to do with diminishing resources spread over a larger and larger area - be that oil-to-population or military-to-subject-states, or water-to-more- crops. Few (historically) have collapsed of their own weight - but two actually have in recent times: The Soviet Union and South Africa. Both peacefully as it happens. Cuba shows signs of a similar collapse. So, despite the onset of hip-hop, AIDS, raves, designer drugs and apparent terminal youthful stupidity, there are signs of "civilization" becoming a bit more-so - at least in fits and starts. Human progress is halting at best, with as many set-backs as steps ahead - all in the profound hope that the steps ahead exceed the setbacks. With now ~ 6.7+ people on the planet: http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html The consequences of even a small setback are immense. So, give it a rest. Music is an expression of energy - and perhaps (at least one hopes) a certain amount of essential emotions comingled with it. Anger, fear, love, hate, pleasure, pain et.al. - they all have a legitimate place in it. Hip-hop is particularly good at expressing certain emotions - and so is "good" - as good as, say... BWV 147 is of peace and serenity - and I leave you to look that one up as well. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#6
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
Sonnova wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:50:33 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote (in article ): So? I defy you to defend your position on anything other than purely subjective-preference grounds. There's nothing to defend. Its just there for anyone with any perspective to see (or rather, hear) for themselves. Within the realm of aesthetics there is no "objective" ground in the sense that we mean it within the empirical sciences. To demand such ground is to get the question wrong from the beginning. There is only judgment based on the value and recognition of one's own aesthetic sensibility. That, however, does not mean that one opinion is as good as any other. Value in aesthetic judgment is necessarily hierarchical, but the proof is an internal one, an apperception, and not an external perception based upon either logical or factual distinctions. Logically, one can simply ignore the question (Russell), or, however important the question might be, declare it to be nonsensical and mystical (Wittgenstein)--hence, unsolvable. And, logically, one would be quite right. But that does not make the problem go away, for it is not a problem with the question, it is just the limitation of logic. Michael |
#7
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:47:09 -0700, Peter Wieck wrote
(in article ): On Sep 20, 11:08*am, Sonnova wrote: On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:37:03 -0700, William Noble wrote (in article ): you know, every generation has complained about the decline of civilization - you can find quotes from Pliny the elder about this, you can certainly amuse yourself reading about the evils of rock and roll, or the evils of Mozart and how society will be in Hades soon. What you are seeing is the reaction to change, not to decline. *Just because YOU (Nietzsche) or don't like it, doesn't mean that it is bad. I defy you to say that rap and hip-hop are "good". *They're bad, and when change results in general "bad", that's decline. * Yikes! The Romans had this figured out some thousands of years ago: Primus: De gustibus non est disputandum. You spelled degustibus and disputatio incorrectly. et secundus: Damnant quod non intellegunt. There are no Latin words "damnant" or "intellegunt." I will leave you to find the translations. It would be a lot easier, if you could actually spell the Latin words that you are trying to use. Luckily, I know what you're trying to say. Someone using a Latin-English dictionary to translate these two phrases is going to find himself up against a brick wall, though because most of the words you use are not really Latin. But I agree that there is no arguing taste, and if I correctly translate your second illiteracy as "damn (or condemn) the stupid", then I agree there as well. some of this in the pro/anti vinyl arguements, and there is some truth on both sides. *Let's not confuse personal preference with the long term destiny of humankind. I try not to make that mistake. But, with respect, you just did. No I didn't. I can recognize something as being good and still not personally like it. I can likewise recognize something as being very poor quality and still like it. Conversely, I can also recognize something that is very poor quality and not like it. Children are forever attempting to shock their parents. It is part of the separation process. After the 60s, sex-drugs-rock-and-roll, free love, tune in, turn on, drop out, we are pretty hard to shock. Imagine what our grandchildren will need to do to shock their parents - and what you might think of that? I am aware of that. It's irrelevant. Bad is bad, whatever the excuse. Civilizations decline for any number of reasons - mostly having to do with diminishing resources spread over a larger and larger area - be that oil-to-population or military-to-subject-states, or water-to-more- crops. Few (historically) have collapsed of their own weight - but two actually have in recent times: The Soviet Union and South Africa. Both peacefully as it happens. Cuba shows signs of a similar collapse. So, despite the onset of hip-hop, AIDS, raves, designer drugs and apparent terminal youthful stupidity, there are signs of "civilization" becoming a bit more-so - at least in fits and starts. Again, irrelevant. Nobody is talking about a society collapsing, all we are talking about is the erosion of standards in popular music as an indicator of the overall health of the society on an intellectual level - not economic, not militarily, not even socially. But like I said, we have flogged this deceased equine enough. |
#8
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
You did not try very hard nor look very far back nor answer the last
point. a) There is no accounting for taste. b) They condemn what they do not understand. The first is from about 380AD, the last from about 980AD - and latin by then was the first cousin of Vergil, at best. But it was Latin-as- practiced nonetheless. Again - I leave you to find the references. And, with all due respect, you are taking a rigidly subjective viewpoint without reference to the world as exists and as it has existed for (at least) all of recorded history. I very strongly suggest that you look up the much more recent works of Don Marquis - and one of his smaller characters, "Probably Arboreal". It will do much towards granting you the power of insight. The Horse ain't nohow dead unless and until you describe clearly and cogently where and why *this* generation is any different, or any less hopeful or any more threatening to "civilization' than its parents generation, our generation, or those that produced us. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#9
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
Sonnova wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:50:33 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote (in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:37:03 -0700, William Noble wrote (in article ): you know, every generation has complained about the decline of civilization - you can find quotes from Pliny the elder about this, you can certainly amuse yourself reading about the evils of rock and roll, or the evils of Mozart and how society will be in Hades soon. What you are seeing is the reaction to change, not to decline. Just because YOU (Nietzsche) or don't like it, doesn't mean that it is bad. I defy you to say that rap and hip-hop are "good". shrug Some hip-hop is good. Some 'classical' is good. Some isn't. I'm not contrasting pop vs classical. I'm contrasting today's pop with the pop music of earlier generations. So? I defy you to defend your position on anything other than purely subjective-preference grounds. There's nothing to defend. Its just there for anyone with any perspective to see (or rather, hear) for themselves. In other words, with the right 'perspective', it's a self-evident truth? I've been a music lover for some 35 years now. My pop music collection goes back to the days of Louis Armstrong's Hot 5s. I enjoy pop from all eras and genres, including rap, as well as 'classical', jazz, showtunes, avant-garde. I still sample what;s new in pop music (it's easier now than it ever was). I've played in bands and pit orchestras since the 1970s. So I think I've got plenty of perspective. Who are you to assert a priori that I, or anyone, lacks perspective? If anything,I'd bet good money *you* haven't the 'perspective' to judge the worth of any given example of rap, since you probably no know nothinfg of the genre. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
#10
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:46:06 -0700, Peter Wieck wrote
(in article ): You did not try very hard nor look very far back nor answer the last point. a) There is no accounting for taste. b) They condemn what they do not understand. The first is from about 380AD, the last from about 980AD - and latin by then was the first cousin of Vergil, at best. But it was Latin-as- practiced nonetheless. Again - I leave you to find the references. You misspelled Virgil. And the saying "They condemn what they do not understand" is attributed to Cicero (106-43 BCE), hardly 980AD. And, with all due respect, you are taking a rigidly subjective viewpoint without reference to the world as exists and as it has existed for (at least) all of recorded history. I very strongly suggest that you look up the much more recent works of Don Marquis - and one of his smaller characters, "Probably Arboreal". It will do much towards granting you the power of insight. The Horse ain't nohow dead unless and until you describe clearly and cogently where and why *this* generation is any different, or any less hopeful or any more threatening to "civilization' than its parents generation, our generation, or those that produced us. This generation's taste in music, film and literature is poorer than that of the "Baby Boomers" and their (my generation's) taste in music, film and literature is poorer that that of their parents' generation(s). It's called entropy and it comes from within and from without. Many blame this entropic decline of Western values on TV. I'd say that this has merit but doesn't tell the entire story. TV has engendered short attention spans, and the insatiable desire for "something new" that goes along with the short attention spans, which causes the creators of pop culture to respond with ever more abbreviated forms of "stimulus" which again, further shortens attention spans, and creates a demand for more "new", etc. With each iteration, the "new" becomes more and more banal due to it's need to be brief - to satisfy the short attention spans of it's intended audience. It's an inevitability. We see it reflected in everything from business ("... don't give me your life's story, just the bottom line!") to pop music and mindless movies; short on story, long on quick-changing action and violence. You're the one who seems to have read into my criticism that this is somehow threatening to humanity, I made no such claim. Humanity will continue in some state or another until we either annihilate each other or nature does it for us. It just seems to me that the utopian goal of each generation being more enlightened and culturally astute than the one before is now thoroughly bankrupt and discredited. I'm through. And that's my final word on the subject Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#11
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 06:19:40 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:50:33 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote (in article ): Sonnova wrote: On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:37:03 -0700, William Noble wrote (in article ): you know, every generation has complained about the decline of civilization - you can find quotes from Pliny the elder about this, you can certainly amuse yourself reading about the evils of rock and roll, or the evils of Mozart and how society will be in Hades soon. What you are seeing is the reaction to change, not to decline. Just because YOU (Nietzsche) or don't like it, doesn't mean that it is bad. I defy you to say that rap and hip-hop are "good". shrug Some hip-hop is good. Some 'classical' is good. Some isn't. I'm not contrasting pop vs classical. I'm contrasting today's pop with the pop music of earlier generations. So? I defy you to defend your position on anything other than purely subjective-preference grounds. There's nothing to defend. Its just there for anyone with any perspective to see (or rather, hear) for themselves. In other words, with the right 'perspective', it's a self-evident truth? I've been a music lover for some 35 years now. My pop music collection goes back to the days of Louis Armstrong's Hot 5s. I enjoy pop from all eras and genres, including rap, as well as 'classical', jazz, showtunes, avant-garde. I still sample what;s new in pop music (it's easier now than it ever was). I've played in bands and pit orchestras since the 1970s. So I think I've got plenty of perspective. Who are you to assert a priori that I, or anyone, lacks perspective? If anything,I'd bet good money *you* haven't the 'perspective' to judge the worth of any given example of rap, since you probably no know nothinfg of the genre. I didn't say that you lacked perspective - so please don't put words in my mouth. I said that the decline in popular musical standards from one generation to the next is there for anyone with the perspective to see for themselves. I've also said that there is no accounting for "taste". For instance, I like canned chow-mien (you know, the kind that comes in the two cans taped together?). I know that its not very good and certainly not representative of anything even approaching chow-mien, but my mom used to serve it for lunch sometimes when I was a kid, and I still like the taste. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize it as the poor product it is. That's the kind of detached perspective I was trying to engender to this discussion. I.E. it doesn't matter whether you (or I) like or don't like something, it must be evaluated dispassionately. Take from that little anecdote what you will but I'm through with this thread. |
#12
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
"Sonnova" wrote in message
... \ I defy you to say that rap and hip-hop are "good". They're bad, and when change results in general "bad", that's decline. Using whose criteria? Yours? I defy you to illustrate how this is not purely and entirely a subjective evaluation. Unilaterally stating that hip-hop and rap are "bad" is akin to stating unilaterally that homosexuality is "wrong". If someone enjoys something, and that something is not harming anyone else, how is it "wrong"? And please, I beg the masses, do not bring organized religion into this thread. Just the facts, ma'am. Why don't you just say "I don't like it" (or, as I trained my children, "It's not my favorite"). Just because you find something distasteful or even offensive in no way renders it devoid of value or quality. David |
#13
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
wrote in message
... Sonnova wrote: On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:50:33 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote (in article ): So? I defy you to defend your position on anything other than purely subjective-preference grounds. There's nothing to defend. Its just there for anyone with any perspective to see (or rather, hear) for themselves. Within the realm of aesthetics there is no "objective" ground in the sense that we mean it within the empirical sciences. To demand such ground is to get the question wrong from the beginning. There is only judgment based on the value and recognition of one's own aesthetic sensibility. That, however, does not mean that one opinion is as good as any other. Value in aesthetic judgment is necessarily hierarchical, but the proof is an internal one, an apperception, and not an external perception based upon either logical or factual distinctions. Logically, one can simply ignore the question (Russell), or, however important the question might be, declare it to be nonsensical and mystical (Wittgenstein)--hence, unsolvable. And, logically, one would be quite right. But that does not make the problem go away, for it is not a problem with the question, it is just the limitation of logic. It's difficult to disagree with a logical discourse such as that rendered above. And yet... If you have read the discourse on quality as set out in Robert Pursig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" evidence is presented as to a non-objective, non-subjective entity called Quality. Perception of quality preceeds objective and subjective recognition. Some things are immediately perceived as good (having quality) WITHOUT any a priori knowledge which might color one's judgement, and some are perceived as not good, or lacking quality. One could argue the good/bad-ness of rap music indefinitely. I chalk it up to the old adage "there's no accounting for personal taste". David |
#14
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
Dave wrote:
It's difficult to disagree with a logical discourse such as that rendered above. And yet... If you have read the discourse on quality as set out in Robert Pursig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" evidence is presented as to a non-objective, non-subjective entity called Quality. Perception of quality preceeds objective and subjective recognition. Some things are immediately perceived as good (having quality) WITHOUT any a priori knowledge which might color one's judgement, and some are perceived as not good, or lacking quality. These are statements of fact, backed up by.....what? It's easy to marshall experimental data to show that perception 'quality' is hardly self-evident and self-generating, and is more likely to be highly influenced by 'a priori knowledge'. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
#15
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
Dave wrote:
wrote in message Within the realm of aesthetics there is no "objective" ground in the sense...(redacted) Some things are immediately perceived as good (having quality) WITHOUT any a priori knowledge which might color one's judgement, and some are perceived as not good, or lacking quality. I'm trying to understand your statement, and I think I know what you are trying to say. My only point is that aesthetic judgment, if authentic, is based upon something internal--a valuation of "the good" or "quality." It is undoubtedly hierarchical and demands a ranking; at the same time, it is not objective in the normal sense. If aesthetic judgment was not hierarchical, anything would be as good as any other thing, and judgment would not be necessary. Empirical knowledge will help you build an amplifier, and help one decide which amplifier represents good value, or quality. However, empirical knowledge is really not so helpful when deciding the music one plays through the amplifier. Michael |
#16
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
... Dave wrote: It's difficult to disagree with a logical discourse such as that rendered above. And yet... If you have read the discourse on quality as set out in Robert Pursig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" evidence is presented as to a non-objective, non-subjective entity called Quality. Perception of quality preceeds objective and subjective recognition. Some things are immediately perceived as good (having quality) WITHOUT any a priori knowledge which might color one's judgement, and some are perceived as not good, or lacking quality. These are statements of fact, backed up by.....what? Read the book. If you enjoy exploring the issues touched on in this thread, you will enjoy it immensely. I'm not a philosopher, and quite frankly am not skilled enough to properly construct a logical treatise on quality or lack thereof as related to a priori effects. I can only say it's been attempted, and that there are conflicting opinions or philosophies (for lack of a better word) regarding the successfulness of such proof(s). The book is several hundred pages long. As I alluded to in my original post "evidence is presented as to...". It's in there. Dave |
#17
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decline of civilzation? Vinyl Revival
Dave wrote:
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: It's difficult to disagree with a logical discourse such as that rendered above. And yet... If you have read the discourse on quality as set out in Robert Pursig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" evidence is presented as to a non-objective, non-subjective entity called Quality. Perception of quality preceeds objective and subjective recognition. Some things are immediately perceived as good (having quality) WITHOUT any a priori knowledge which might color one's judgement, and some are perceived as not good, or lacking quality. These are statements of fact, backed up by.....what? Read the book. I did, years ago. IIRC it was a lot of groovy 70's style East/West fusion philosophizing. I found it tiresome in its assumptions. Meanwhile, there are plentiful experimental data about the effects of a priori knowledge on perception of quality. Pirsig's book is not the type of tome that could pretend to argue against such data. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
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