Hi RATs,

I've been pondering life, the universe, and tubes, and would like to
toss an idea out for discussion.

Consider the venerable SET amplifier. It will typically have an
asymmetrical distortion characteristic, similar to the measured response
of a little 13EM7-based amplifier.

http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubes...s/minibwav.gif

My interest is in post-processing a computer-generated audio file via an
SET amplifier, to warm it up with those nice harmonics. So it's more of
a music-production application rather than reproduction.

For stereo, of course, you'd have two identical amplifiers. The phase of
the flattening point would therefore be the same in both channels, e.g.
at the top of the wave as in the diagram above.

Or is there an advantage to be obtained by phasing the saturation
plateau in opposite directions for opposing channels? Would this enhance
the natural stereo separation due to timing and panning? Has anyone ever
played with this?

Implementing would involve reversing the speaker outputs on one of the
amplifiers, and also adding a phase inverter at the input. The absolute
phase of the signal would thus stay the same, but we've moved the
flattening point to the "bottom" of the curve for the second channel.

Or should I simply take my own usual advise and just try it? ;-)

Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

Fred Nachbaur wrote:

Hi RATs,

I've been pondering life, the universe, and tubes, and would like to
toss an idea out for discussion.

Consider the venerable SET amplifier. It will typically have an
asymmetrical distortion characteristic, similar to the measured response
of a little 13EM7-based amplifier.

http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubes...s/minibwav.gif

My interest is in post-processing a computer-generated audio file via an
SET amplifier, to warm it up with those nice harmonics. So it's more of
a music-production application rather than reproduction.

The wave file shows an amp with mainly 2H and 3H in the bottom wave pic.
But notice the slight flattening in the bottom of the wave, and this means
lots of odd order hd products.
The wave is that of a triode at the end of its patience, and beginning
to protest to the owner with ambitions for the tube which cannot be
fulfilled.

I have less prejudice about hd, when it is confined to some 2H and 3H
than I have about the unmusical higher order hd and the imd between tones,
which can be unmusical sounding in some amps.
But if you build an electronic organ with say 70 x 12AX7 oscillators,
all with tuned LC circuits, then the tones produced by one oscillator
won't intefere with tones produced by another, if the final amp is high
linearity.
Then we would hear just the thd of each oscillator.

If any attempt is made to simply add 2H and 3H via a PC program,
then surely you would get the imd as well, but attempts have been done
to achieve all this and I wonder what improvement it could make over using a
real
triode in the signal path.



For stereo, of course, you'd have two identical amplifiers. The phase of
the flattening point would therefore be the same in both channels, e.g.
at the top of the wave as in the diagram above.

Or is there an advantage to be obtained by phasing the saturation
plateau in opposite directions for opposing channels? Would this enhance
the natural stereo separation due to timing and panning? Has anyone ever
played with this?

I doubt it.
I never listen to music with any amplifier anywhere near the over driven
point
like that shown in the bottom gif.
The "sound goodness" and imaging is all part of the linearity
of the system, and any gross move away from linearity creates a tendency
towards
chaos, and musical disintegration.
I like my music with less than 0.1% if thd, period, and not with
2%.

I also like rythym and blues, played languidly and slow,
with simple harmonica and guitar, but via amps which overload a bit, and
the 1 kHz screams and wails from the instruments is muddied just a bit by
the rails clipping,
and the injection of mains or rectifier hum, and it adds character to the
tune, the song,
but the distortion don't dominate the mind, its there to be savoured,
like the wrinkles on face the old black singing his blues.....
Nothin like a bitta growly man, bitta reverby, bitta dis tortion,
itsa like pepper and de salt on de food man.

Meanwhile the silly young white man playing his heavy metal "music" has
failed all attempts
at conveying his emotional state in a plausible fashion, since WTF he is
putting out
cannot be empathised with since the words are indecipherable, and certainly
in vain, as he is
employing "noisy brat" techniques, where everything is full on,
pumped up, meaning free, and insanely full of hate, and poppycock.
All including 50% of thd and imd.

I sure don't like any pop-science techniques to interfere with my Bach.

Implementing would involve reversing the speaker outputs on one of the
amplifiers, and also adding a phase inverter at the input. The absolute
phase of the signal would thus stay the same, but we've moved the
flattening point to the "bottom" of the curve for the second channel.

Or should I simply take my own usual advise and just try it? ;-)

I definately think that taking your own advice is the right thing to do, no
doubt about it.
I mean, now if you make your own wine, then do try to drink it.
Please, please do not try to pretend, in front of the emabarrassed missus,
that its like a $1,000 bottle of Penfold Grange from 1972.
Allow ppl gathered round your fireplace to grimace with you as you do over
your own brew
or else whoop with joy that you mighta got the process right, something
which defies chance,
even at the best vinyards, ( or breweries ).

I should know. I had a father who believed his own winemaking was just a
marvel,
but really, one needed a joint to make it taste well, but then the "wine"
and pot would turn you insane
for a few hours, so I didn't do that more than twice. Getting home on the
motor cycle
was "interesting", to say the least.

What makes good wine? experience and science, or computer programming?


Patrick Turner.


Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

Patrick Turner wrote:


Fred Nachbaur wrote:


Hi RATs,

I've been pondering life, the universe, and tubes, and would like to
toss an idea out for discussion.

Consider the venerable SET amplifier. It will typically have an
asymmetrical distortion characteristic, similar to the measured response
of a little 13EM7-based amplifier.

http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubes...s/minibwav.gif

My interest is in post-processing a computer-generated audio file via an
SET amplifier, to warm it up with those nice harmonics. So it's more of
a music-production application rather than reproduction.


The wave file shows an amp with mainly 2H and 3H in the bottom wave pic.
But notice the slight flattening in the bottom of the wave, and this means
lots of odd order hd products.
The wave is that of a triode at the end of its patience, and beginning
to protest to the owner with ambitions for the tube which cannot be
fulfilled.

Yes. It should be noted that these conditions represent the extreme of
"usable" signal excursion, and would only be reached very briefly during
musical peaks. This is basically the setup I used for the SET
post-processing I did on the production of "Canon and Gigue (For Shaza)"
on my IUMA site: http://artists4.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Fred_Nachbaur/ I'm
really happy with how the tonality came out on this tune, I can
definitely hear a warm "punch" compared to the original dry wav file.

I have less prejudice about hd, when it is confined to some 2H and 3H
than I have about the unmusical higher order hd and the imd between tones,
which can be unmusical sounding in some amps.
But if you build an electronic organ with say 70 x 12AX7 oscillators,
all with tuned LC circuits, then the tones produced by one oscillator
won't intefere with tones produced by another, if the final amp is high
linearity.
Then we would hear just the thd of each oscillator.

But I think part of the charm of those discrete-oscillator organs is
precisely that interaction between the harmonics of the various
oscillators. A Hammond organ just wouldn't sound like a Hammond if it
weren't for those.

If any attempt is made to simply add 2H and 3H via a PC program,
then surely you would get the imd as well, but attempts have been done
to achieve all this and I wonder what improvement it could make over using a
real
triode in the signal path.

Yes, I'm a bit leery of that kind of processing, while it's true that
"tube emulators" exist to attempt to reproduce that kind of sound, my
tendency is to use a Real tube in a Real circuit to provide something
that the listener can really sink his ears into.

For reproduction, of course I agree that one should be very careful
about going too crazy with introduced harmonics. But for production --
it's an entirely different matter IMO.


For stereo, of course, you'd have two identical amplifiers. The phase of
the flattening point would therefore be the same in both channels, e.g.
at the top of the wave as in the diagram above.

Or is there an advantage to be obtained by phasing the saturation
plateau in opposite directions for opposing channels? Would this enhance
the natural stereo separation due to timing and panning? Has anyone ever
played with this?


I doubt it.
I never listen to music with any amplifier anywhere near the over driven
point
like that shown in the bottom gif.
The "sound goodness" and imaging is all part of the linearity
of the system, and any gross move away from linearity creates a tendency
towards
chaos, and musical disintegration.
I like my music with less than 0.1% if thd, period, and not with
2%.

I also like rythym and blues, played languidly and slow,
with simple harmonica and guitar, but via amps which overload a bit, and
the 1 kHz screams and wails from the instruments is muddied just a bit by
the rails clipping,
and the injection of mains or rectifier hum, and it adds character to the
tune, the song,
but the distortion don't dominate the mind, its there to be savoured,
like the wrinkles on face the old black singing his blues.....
Nothin like a bitta growly man, bitta reverby, bitta dis tortion,
itsa like pepper and de salt on de food man.

Meanwhile the silly young white man playing his heavy metal "music" has
failed all attempts
at conveying his emotional state in a plausible fashion, since WTF he is
putting out
cannot be empathised with since the words are indecipherable, and certainly
in vain, as he is
employing "noisy brat" techniques, where everything is full on,
pumped up, meaning free, and insanely full of hate, and poppycock.
All including 50% of thd and imd.

Yes, there again... if you really want that noisy, angry shouting, then
you need that specific kind of distortion. Not my cuppa tea either, but
that being said there has been some phenomenal work done with carefully
applied distortion by bands such as Radiohead. And of course Metallica.
(Hi Tim)

I sure don't like any pop-science techniques to interfere with my Bach.

Usually I agree. But I still love the original Switched-On Bach, done
many years ago with a completely analog-tuned Moog synth, in a
performance that's still spectacular after all these years. She (Wendy
Carlos) remade it in 2000, with state-of-the-art virtual symphonic
sounds, careful tempering, the whole nine yards. While it's very
beautiful in its own right, it lacks that raw freshness and innocence of
the original SOB.

Implementing would involve reversing the speaker outputs on one of the
amplifiers, and also adding a phase inverter at the input. The absolute
phase of the signal would thus stay the same, but we've moved the
flattening point to the "bottom" of the curve for the second channel.

Or should I simply take my own usual advise and just try it? ;-)


I definately think that taking your own advice is the right thing to do, no
doubt about it.

A good notion. Steve Bench suggested trying out the matrix amplifier
approach, which -- when you think about it -- does precisely what I've
described (as far as mirroring the distortion characteristic between
channels).

I have the two minibloks, one push-pull and one SET. If these were
matrixed, the PP side could provide the "grunt" (common-mode) whilst the
SET could provide the "color" (difference signal).

Now that my hemoglobin has stabilized and I'm not sitting on top of Mt.
Everest anymore, I might even find the energy to play around with this!

I mean, now if you make your own wine, then do try to drink it.
Please, please do not try to pretend, in front of the emabarrassed missus,
that its like a $1,000 bottle of Penfold Grange from 1972.
Allow ppl gathered round your fireplace to grimace with you as you do over
your own brew
or else whoop with joy that you mighta got the process right, something
which defies chance,
even at the best vinyards, ( or breweries ).

I should know. I had a father who believed his own winemaking was just a
marvel,
but really, one needed a joint to make it taste well, but then the "wine"
and pot would turn you insane
for a few hours, so I didn't do that more than twice. Getting home on the
motor cycle
was "interesting", to say the least.

What makes good wine? experience and science, or computer programming?

When it comes to wine, a little luck and serendipity helps a lot. My
brother in law had a real knack for that, he'd try this and try that and
usually come up with something that would make some of those fancy
wine-tasters look surprised and delighted... until he told them that
he'd added something bizarre like dandelion flowers to his mix.

Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...
Meanwhile the silly young white man playing his heavy metal "music" has
failed all attempts
at conveying his emotional state in a plausible fashion, since WTF he
is putting out
cannot be empathised with since the words are indecipherable, ...

Ahh, you been listening to Reinventing The Steel? ;-)
(Too bad Nothing40 is probably the only other one here who knows WTF I'm
talking about. :-P )

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Fred Nachbaur wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:


Fred Nachbaur wrote:


Hi RATs,

I've been pondering life, the universe, and tubes, and would like to
toss an idea out for discussion.

Consider the venerable SET amplifier. It will typically have an
asymmetrical distortion characteristic, similar to the measured response
of a little 13EM7-based amplifier.

http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubes...s/minibwav.gif

My interest is in post-processing a computer-generated audio file via an
SET amplifier, to warm it up with those nice harmonics. So it's more of
a music-production application rather than reproduction.


The wave file shows an amp with mainly 2H and 3H in the bottom wave pic.
But notice the slight flattening in the bottom of the wave, and this means
lots of odd order hd products.
The wave is that of a triode at the end of its patience, and beginning
to protest to the owner with ambitions for the tube which cannot be
fulfilled.

Yes. It should be noted that these conditions represent the extreme of
"usable" signal excursion, and would only be reached very briefly during
musical peaks. This is basically the setup I used for the SET
post-processing I did on the production of "Canon and Gigue (For Shaza)"
on my IUMA site: http://artists4.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Fred_Nachbaur/ I'm
really happy with how the tonality came out on this tune, I can
definitely hear a warm "punch" compared to the original dry wav file.

Warmth comes with music from say a string quartet without any tubes or amps
involved.
But then the electronics robs such naturally warm sound of its life, since there
is rather a lot of pn junctions et all to get through, plus digitalisation.
After being left cold by the processing, it seems good tube amps do the music no
harm.

But I find this is so with especially low distortion tube amps.
I find the lower the thd/imd, the better its sounds, in general,
except for SET amps, which may have 0.1% thd during normal levels.
That's a high amount of thd as far as I am concerned.

Listening tests during tube rolling afternoons with a few friends reveal
sonic differences that cannot be sensibly be explained by
comparing thd spectra.
Some selections of preamp tubes are OK, some are not.
But I drift OT.


I have less prejudice about hd, when it is confined to some 2H and 3H
than I have about the unmusical higher order hd and the imd between tones,
which can be unmusical sounding in some amps.
But if you build an electronic organ with say 70 x 12AX7 oscillators,
all with tuned LC circuits, then the tones produced by one oscillator
won't intefere with tones produced by another, if the final amp is high
linearity.
Then we would hear just the thd of each oscillator.

But I think part of the charm of those discrete-oscillator organs is
precisely that interaction between the harmonics of the various
oscillators. A Hammond organ just wouldn't sound like a Hammond if it
weren't for those.

The Hammond generates its tones from a spinning drum with a lot of teeth
which whiz past magnetic pickups. Unlike a piano or oscillator type organ,
all the notes are related arithmetically in the same way, so if the speed of the
rotor varies a little, the relative notes won't be discordant.
The pick ups all have their thd, and then the amps are all tubed,
and then there is a considerable additional thd, and resultant imd, and,
and subtle though it may be, its all a reminder of what you hear
when they grant you a piece of cloud in the long paddock.

A customer has a Hammond organ, and also a Leslie speaker,
and he can switch the sounf from the hammond preamp to the leslie amps, which are
all SS, and rather primitive SS I would say, since I had to fix the darn SS amps.
The sound is harsh, cold, and rough after going through the SS amps,
but when the Hammond tube amps are used it sounds quite heavenly and golden.
Chalk and cheese.

I had the opportunity to listen to a class A Sugden amp all week after
resoldering its pre amp section due to some intermittent joint somewhere
which had plagued the owner on and off for years.
I though well of the sound, until the end of the week, when I swapped it for
my 2323 class AB triode amp. What a difference.
The Sugden would no doubt have 20 dB less thd than the bloomin
junk box special triode amp.
But still the triode amp would have low thd levels less than 0.1% at the polite
levels I used.

To me this is an inexplicable happening.
I don't care that this happens, it usually does though,
and its easy to reproduce, just build another tube amp....
It was especially noticeable using a mainly piano only recording.
I used the CD of the sound track of the movie, The Piano.




If any attempt is made to simply add 2H and 3H via a PC program,
then surely you would get the imd as well, but attempts have been done
to achieve all this and I wonder what improvement it could make over using a
real
triode in the signal path.

Yes, I'm a bit leery of that kind of processing, while it's true that
"tube emulators" exist to attempt to reproduce that kind of sound, my
tendency is to use a Real tube in a Real circuit to provide something
that the listener can really sink his ears into.

Analog processing might sound a bit better than digital processing.
I know guitarists who much prefer spring boxes and pickups
and tubes for reverb, rather than any digicrap thinge.


For reproduction, of course I agree that one should be very careful
about going too crazy with introduced harmonics. But for production --
it's an entirely different matter IMO.

Yup, I know a dude with a truly huge sound system with maybe 100 drivers
in two towers 30 feet high, and thousands to watts,
and the dance music he plays to the punters is *LOUD*,
and he thinks it all sounds best with a bit of added thd/imd, and resonance
in the speaker enclosures.
Its not my scene really, but he also experiments with interactive
filters, like what they had on the more ancient of synthesisers of 30 years back.
He wants to build a tubed synth.
Gotta take a year off to do all that I told him.
Rather a lot of things to get right.

snip,

as he is
employing "noisy brat" techniques, where everything is full on,
pumped up, meaning free, and insanely full of hate, and poppycock.
All including 50% of thd and imd.

Yes, there again... if you really want that noisy, angry shouting, then
you need that specific kind of distortion. Not my cuppa tea either, but
that being said there has been some phenomenal work done with carefully
applied distortion by bands such as Radiohead. And of course Metallica.
(Hi Tim)

My "Dark Metal" guitarist had me fix his amp, which he demoed
here with his guitar to make sure it was fixed.
The amp is a Marshal 50w head, but with 6550 in triode,
and an extra 12AX7 gain stage added.
Well, when he played anything, the thd/imd is up around 80%,
if that is possible, probably not, since all of what comes from the amp
is a square wave.
I needed ear muffs, and it was like the sound of a stream of jumbo jets
crashing onto my shed.
The very vaguest of tonality in chords and notes could just barely discerned,
but that's what youth is about, making music which portrays the barely
discernable man rebeliously emerging through the pain and suffering of growing up,

and releasing themsleves from the pain and suffering of hearing their parents tell
them
what to do, and waiting for their own self to take over.
I didn't seem to have to go though much of that when I grew up,
and I sure cannot see why the younger set spends so much time locked
into such BS pastimes, where ear damage is the outcome.

Well sung, well played rythym and blues clearly outlines emotional
pain better than metallica et all.
So many white men sound like tom cats with a cracker up their arse.
Now gettin a tube to create that effect is impossible.


I sure don't like any pop-science techniques to interfere with my Bach.

Usually I agree. But I still love the original Switched-On Bach, done
many years ago with a completely analog-tuned Moog synth, in a
performance that's still spectacular after all these years. She (Wendy
Carlos) remade it in 2000, with state-of-the-art virtual symphonic
sounds, careful tempering, the whole nine yards. While it's very
beautiful in its own right, it lacks that raw freshness and innocence of
the original SOB.

I found an LP with Bethoven favourites, with a drum machine worked
into the score.
It went straight into the bin!
I can't stand kitsch.
Its like driving a pink Caddie.


Implementing would involve reversing the speaker outputs on one of the
amplifiers, and also adding a phase inverter at the input. The absolute
phase of the signal would thus stay the same, but we've moved the
flattening point to the "bottom" of the curve for the second channel.

Or should I simply take my own usual advise and just try it? ;-)


I definately think that taking your own advice is the right thing to do, no
doubt about it.

A good notion. Steve Bench suggested trying out the matrix amplifier
approach, which -- when you think about it -- does precisely what I've
described (as far as mirroring the distortion characteristic between
channels).

I have the two minibloks, one push-pull and one SET. If these were
matrixed, the PP side could provide the "grunt" (common-mode) whilst the
SET could provide the "color" (difference signal).

Now that my hemoglobin has stabilized and I'm not sitting on top of Mt.
Everest anymore, I might even find the energy to play around with this!


snip,


What makes good wine? experience and science, or computer programming?

When it comes to wine, a little luck and serendipity helps a lot. My
brother in law had a real knack for that, he'd try this and try that and
usually come up with something that would make some of those fancy
wine-tasters look surprised and delighted... until he told them that
he'd added something bizarre like dandelion flowers to his mix.

In France, the cognescenti wine makers wait for a full moon
just after the crushing of the grapes, and they do a search for a
10 year old virgin, ( not to difficult in a Catholic country), and place a plank
over the vat,
and at the stoke of midnight, she sits on the plank, and takes a nice long ****,
and man, that wine, c'est tres magnifique!

Patrick Turner.



Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

Patrick Turner wrote:



You'll have to forgive my gross ignorance about some if not the bulk
of what ppl mainly under 25 listen to, but I find they seem to "sing"
in a manner which nearly always needs subtitles, and often at a screaming
level,
in competion with the other sounds of accompaniment, and all you get is the
twisted demented sound of the inexpexperienced.

And without a shred of talent.

Tim Williams wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...
Meanwhile the silly young white man playing his heavy metal "music" has
failed all attempts
at conveying his emotional state in a plausible fashion, since WTF he
is putting out
cannot be empathised with since the words are indecipherable, ...

Ahh, you been listening to Reinventing The Steel? ;-)
(Too bad Nothing40 is probably the only other one here who knows WTF I'm
talking about. :-P )

You'll have to forgive my gross ignorance about some if not the bulk
of what ppl mainly under 25 listen to, but I find they seem to "sing"
in a manner which nearly always needs subtitles, and often at a screaming
level,
in competion with the other sounds of accompaniment, and all you get is the
twisted demented sound of the inexpexperienced.

But with rythym and blues, which was the root of all rock,
the singer damn well wants you to hear the words, and knows you don't have
super powers of hearing, and the singer could be anyone up to 75 yr old,
and they don't like wasting their breath leavin yo confused.
If only the young had such consideration, but they don't.

I have some ancient Rolling Stones records, and the last time I played one
it sounded like a bunch of hairy arsed kids makin noise.
Can't git no satisfaction?....... Why the F not? I had plenty to get on with
when I was 18, and there was never a need to scream about what I couldn't
have.
I think I have purchased about 4 pop music LPs in my life so far,
and certainly no cds.
The young moan about lerve, and the world controlled by old farts,
and its all pretty boring stuff to me. Its better to *do* something about it,

and shut the F up.
I quite prefer instrumentals, but I do like unaffectatious jazz,
Rye Cooder, Taj Mahal, Bob Marley even, some how they seemed to have a
message,
and could sing so I understood the words.
Anyone who doesn't sing clearly is plain rude, but I forgive those who
cannot,
like Tom Waits, who likes to vomit the meaning at you,
and I forgive Bob Dylan, since he managed to put voice to the masses who
fought to stop the stupidity of the Vietnam war.

But mostly I like the classics, with never a single electric guitar to be
heard.
Today I will attend the last of 4 live concerts at the ANU School of Music
at 3pm which are being broadcast on FM.
There will be a group called Guitar Trek, and they will fill the hall with
their
3 guitars with a marvellous range of music from accoustic guitar, with nylon
strings.
They play a huge range of classical, flamenco, sth american, modern,
whatever.
The last time I heard them they illustrated what can be done with a guitar,
and how limited and arogant most rocknroll artists really are.

One thing about real live unamplified music is that it makes you ask now why
doesn't my system
make the same impact at home?

Patrick Turner.






Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"JJ" wrote in message
...
And without a shred of talent.

Reinventing The Steel, that I mentioned, by Pantera, isn't too great IMO.
Their other stuff rocks though...Cowboys From Hell, Vulgar Display Of
Power... good shtuff. And then there's all the Metallica (hi back Fred)
that has no screaming at all in it.
I know at least a few people who have said Metallica and Bach/Beethoven have
many notes in common, so don't get stereotypical on my metal.

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Tim Williams wrote:

"JJ" wrote in message
...

And without a shred of talent.


Reinventing The Steel, that I mentioned, by Pantera, isn't too great IMO.
Their other stuff rocks though...Cowboys From Hell, Vulgar Display Of
Power... good shtuff. And then there's all the Metallica (hi back Fred)
that has no screaming at all in it.
I know at least a few people who have said Metallica and Bach/Beethoven have
many notes in common, so don't get stereotypical on my metal.

Twelve of 'em, to be precise.

Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

Tim Williams wrote:

"JJ" wrote in message
...
And without a shred of talent.

Reinventing The Steel, that I mentioned, by Pantera, isn't too great IMO.
Their other stuff rocks though...Cowboys From Hell, Vulgar Display Of
Power... good shtuff. And then there's all the Metallica (hi back Fred)
that has no screaming at all in it.
I know at least a few people who have said Metallica and Bach/Beethoven have
many notes in common, so don't get stereotypical on my metal.

Tim

I'd reckon you are the expert on the modern music of the age, not me.
I haven't heard of any of the above names except metallica, who don't
display that they have been to music school,
and Bach, who was a genius who told them what to teach.
I did hear Pearl Jam, when they toured here 5 years ago.
Bloody awful.
And I heard it "live" at home, nearly 1/2 a mile from the stadium where they
played.
( Live = via 200,000 watts of solid state.)
I have seen Tina Turner ( no relation) on TV, and she bored me.
I don't wish to offend about metallica, but alas most of what I have heard
is dross to this ear.
But so is a lot of classical opera, fat old biddies trying to sing parts
best left to a genuine damsel, that fake falsetto sound which so often grates...

Much of the classical world is stuffy, stuck up, pretentious, and without soul.

But music is an art form, is it not, and its beauty is in the ear of the
listener.
And if there is beauty, there is ugliness, and all that is between.
So anything goes, yeah, because in the past we were all taught there was
difference between
good art, Back, Bethoven, Handel, et all, and crap, ie, all pop music.
But there's a shirt load more pop music listened to than classical,
and its because we have de-constructed the empires of "correct thinking and
taste"
of the past.
This attitude has led to indigenous players of didgeridos to consider their
"washing machine sound" is on an equal artistic level to anything designed in
Vienna for violin.
To them I am polite, not game to say what I think. Ditto the punk rockers.
Metallica and other pop music is like the modern paintings which hang
in the local Austalian National Gallery. Many are multi coloured daubings,
splashings, throwings of paint,
now worth millions, but without any slight obvious definite meaning.
Take Blue Poles, by your countryman, Jackson Pollock, now worth about 40 mill.
Worth only $1 to me. The aboriginal artists of the nation entertain my eyes
better.
At the ANU, they have art shows with the old masters, and much of their work is
in vain, since
much was sponsored by the rich, to illustrate what fine clothes they and their
over indulged wives were able to wear,
often at the expense of the poor buggers in 3rd world countries whose countries
were pillaged
by the empirists creating the wealth for the castles and the few pennies for the
painter.
To me that's bad art, like some of the boring old classical music, but at least
music could be enjoyed by rich and poor, if enough money could be found to pay
the instrument maker.
Music survived in the iron curtain countries, whilst painting freely was
subversive.
If you strip away the pomp and pageantry, and seek the art of strugglers,
its there you may find more meaning...
But I do like Vermeer's Girl with a pearl earing.
In Holland at the time it was painted, it was a sensation, a picture of a
nobody, a lowly maid,
and she was contrived to look a bit delicious, smutty even, which was an obscene
idea then,
but which all seems silly by us modernists, considering the images of females to

be found on the Net.
Art helps me see the beauty in the check out counter girls at the local shop...

Nevertheless, Shostakovitch got into trouble with his 9th Symphony, which
caricatured
Russia's win over Germany. Stalin was in the audience when it was perfomed in
1946,
and he had the man locked up for years for the sound he designed.
Stalin wouldn't kill old Shosto, because of the
political ill feeling it would have caused in western minds. But he killed about

30 million of peasants he ruled over, about whom the west never cared about a
bit.
Those folks never had a chance to hear much music, let alone take in the
excitement of metallica.

When I think of the present, I am taken to the past.

Patrick Turner.






--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Patrick Turner wrote:

[...]

When I think of the present, I am taken to the past.

Patrick Turner.

My, aren't you in a dour mood! You need to get out more, in mind if not
in body.

The more music I listen to, of all genres, the more I hear. The more I
appreciate, and eventually the more I enjoy it.

A wise person once told me, "Stop listening to a kind of music once it
stops changing for you." Starting long ago with a profound distaste for
50's mindless boppy rock&roll, suddenly the Beatles appeared. And with
the Beatles I really started listening in new ways, not the same old
knowing the entire Eine Kleine Nachtmusik by heart. I can still listen
to Mozart, but I have to take a different approach; hearing it more as
pleasant background, since I know it so well it no longer changes for me
when I listen to it critically.

I'm presently archiving my record/CD collection. I'm up to some 600
albums of all genres, and a long ways to go yet. Lots of great stuff to
sink my musical teeth into!!!

I'm discovering "new to me" music that's just been languishing for the
years. Old Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd, all the 70's British prog-rockers.
And I'm absolutely blown away by the "invisible renaissance" that
occurred during the 70's and 80's in pop music, and that apparently only
the cogniscenti recognized at the time. More narrow-minded duffers like
myself took some 30 years to finally get it. It can not be said, "This
is pop, this is rock, this is classical." Some of the work by Peter
Gabriel and friends is as classical/romantic "art music" as anything
written by Schumann or Brahms.

The pop/rock scene has been in an incredible flux since its roots as an
uncomfortable blend of black Blues and white Country. It has branched in
many different directions, some very pleasant and enlightening, and some
less so. Punk? Have a listen to old Pretenders. Roots of metal? Have a
listen to the San Francisco bands (Quicksilver, Jefferson Airplane) and
again- the brits: Led Zeppelin, . Metallica - perhaps one of the least
understood bands in the mainstream; some of it very "metal," but much of
it very balladic and beautiful. Also Nirvana. Not everyone's taste, but
certainly worthy of respect.

Pearl Jam and similar bands - I agree. There's not much content in the
recordings themselves. But the *experience* is in the live show -- and
you just can't get the same feeling from a PJ record as you can from a
show. (But do bring your ear plugs.) Oddly, it reminds me of Jerry
Garcia and the Grateful Dead. Their records were almost invariably lame
and boring (a notable exception being American Beauty), but their shows
were "happenings," events of the time that helped us to define who we
were in a very uncertain and scary time.

Put something on that you're unfamiliar with, with no preconceptions,
and a willingness to at least listen openly, and no resistance to liking
/ disliking, simply experience it and see how you feel after the
experience. Maybe listen to it again, just in case it takes time to sink
in (especially true of a lot of prog rock, jazz, and other
"experimental" media).

You might pleasantly surprise yourself!

Cheers,
Fred

--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

"Fred Nachbaur" wrote in message
news:sFRic.12117$NG2.11560@edtnps84...
snip
You might pleasantly surprise yourself!

Very well said, Fred.

Hey Pat - if you can grab individual songs, try Metallica - Unforgiven.

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Fred Nachbaur wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

[...]

When I think of the present, I am taken to the past.

Patrick Turner.

My, aren't you in a dour mood! You need to get out more, in mind if not
in body.

I get out quite a lot, several nights a week, with my friends.
And I get out of the room if the music, film or art is crap,
or if someone I cannot argue with tells me, which is extremely seldom.

I think of both the past and future, the present being extremely brief.

Young ppl don't like the past, they have only the time for their future,
which is natural and good,
but it means they don't learn from the past, and they have not lived long
enough
to have a past to have learnt from, and some grow old and
learn not to learn at all.
Dour? or just realistic about the world?



The more music I listen to, of all genres, the more I hear. The more I
appreciate, and eventually the more I enjoy it.

The group I heard today was Guitar Trek, with 4, not 3 guitarists,
and they played Brazillian composers, and an Oz composer's music,
which was called Bleached Memories, and very pleasant, interesting,
but without any meaning, which is OK, because good art doesn't have to have
meaning;
it tickles our senses rather than annoy them.
A good bottle of wine has no meaning.



A wise person once told me, "Stop listening to a kind of music once it
stops changing for you."

At some of the cafe venues where I play chess there is always some lowest
common denominator
pop music of ZERO merit being played, and it sure isn't changing from the
crap that it is.
I don't get the chance to not listen to this ****e; I'd prefer to NOT hear
it.
But it ain't deafening, and the waitresses are pretty, so I don't care.
Getting old means you ask the waiter to turn the music down when you order.
If he doesn't, and its too loud, you walk out.
The restaurant owners know that if they played classical, ie music 200 years
old,
most of the younger set would soon leave, and never return;
something "classical" but modern by Shoenberg, or Peter Sculthorpe would
really freak the buggers.
The waiters and waitresses are all about 20, and only like pop to work to.


Starting long ago with a profound distaste for
50's mindless boppy rock&roll, suddenly the Beatles appeared. And with
the Beatles I really started listening in new ways, not the same old
knowing the entire Eine Kleine Nachtmusik by heart. I can still listen
to Mozart, but I have to take a different approach; hearing it more as
pleasant background, since I know it so well it no longer changes for me
when I listen to it critically.

The Beatles? there is no accounting for taste!
Buncha nancy boyos to me I thought, in 1963.



I'm presently archiving my record/CD collection. I'm up to some 600
albums of all genres, and a long ways to go yet. Lots of great stuff to
sink my musical teeth into!!!

I'm discovering "new to me" music that's just been languishing for the
years. Old Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd, all the 70's British prog-rockers.
And I'm absolutely blown away by the "invisible renaissance" that
occurred during the 70's and 80's in pop music, and that apparently only
the cogniscenti recognized at the time.

Renaissance? in Britain, in the 70s and 80s?

I have never thought Pink Floyd to be very listenable.
I never wished to own a Dark side of the Moon LP.
Just balderdash, to me.


More narrow-minded duffers like
myself took some 30 years to finally get it. It can not be said, "This
is pop, this is rock, this is classical."

I would dare to make the distinction between pop/rock/classical.
If the Beatles' tunes are still being played in 250 years, sure,
they will be classics.
They have some ways to go to *earn* the respect.


Some of the work by Peter
Gabriel and friends is as classical/romantic "art music" as anything
written by Schumann or Brahms.

The pop/rock scene has been in an incredible flux since its roots as an
uncomfortable blend of black Blues and white Country. It has branched in
many different directions, some very pleasant and enlightening, and some
less so. Punk? Have a listen to old Pretenders. Roots of metal? Have a
listen to the San Francisco bands (Quicksilver, Jefferson Airplane) and
again- the brits: Led Zeppelin, . Metallica - perhaps one of the least
understood bands in the mainstream; some of it very "metal," but much of
it very balladic and beautiful. Also Nirvana. Not everyone's taste, but
certainly worthy of respect.

Not a single name above on my shelves.
I went to parties where they played all that stuff and we all smoked joints
and still I found no meaning, and little social benefit. Some folks loved
their shelves of music,
but I never bought an LP until I bought a house, at near 30, when partying
stopped. The night clubs were worse. And noisy, full of smoke.
I never married any of the girls riddled with ideas taken from the music
they listened to
at the parties or night clubs to which I went.
I am glad about that. Only fun could be had with them, nothing more.
I see the dysfuntionality in so many families, the divorces, so many crazy
misconceptions,
and folks without any ideas, or only those of the media.
I have always enjoyed being slightly apart from it all.



Pearl Jam and similar bands - I agree. There's not much content in the
recordings themselves. But the *experience* is in the live show -- and
you just can't get the same feeling from a PJ record as you can from a
show. (But do bring your ear plugs.) Oddly, it reminds me of Jerry
Garcia and the Grateful Dead. Their records were almost invariably lame
and boring (a notable exception being American Beauty), but their shows
were "happenings," events of the time that helped us to define who we
were in a very uncertain and scary time.

Meatloaf, aaarrrrrrghhhh!



Put something on that you're unfamiliar with, with no preconceptions,
and a willingness to at least listen openly, and no resistance to liking
/ disliking, simply experience it and see how you feel after the
experience. Maybe listen to it again, just in case it takes time to sink
in (especially true of a lot of prog rock, jazz, and other
"experimental" media).

You might pleasantly surprise yourself!

I cannot be force fed garbage.
My ANU film club showed Kill Bill last week.
I walked out after 10 minutes, slamming the door on the way out.
300 univerisity educated people stoically stayed to see this horrid movie.
And I really loathe kung fu movies as well.
How can civilised people watch such trash?
I will not watch/listen to entertainment riddled and dominated with fear,
hate, and rivers of blood and screams of victims.

I think Moslems and kosher jews do well to outlaw
american TV and music from their homes.

I do try to go to see/hear different stuff, but not all of it
has any redeeming features.

I am hard to please, and proud of it.
I spend more time reading and playing chess than
being at some gig, with my ears and mind being bashed to peices.
Most venues where jazz, rock, funk, bebop, et all is played
have appalling sound systems, and are far too loud.

Patrick Turner.





Cheers,
Fred

--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

Tim Williams wrote:

"Fred Nachbaur" wrote in message
news:sFRic.12117$NG2.11560@edtnps84...
snip
You might pleasantly surprise yourself!

Very well said, Fred.

Hey Pat - if you can grab individual songs, try Metallica - Unforgiven.

Tim

I am quite serene and content about not having Metallica seranade me, ever.

Patrick Turner.



--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Patrick Turner wrote:

[...]

I cannot be force fed garbage.
My ANU film club showed Kill Bill last week.
I walked out after 10 minutes, slamming the door on the way out.
300 univerisity educated people stoically stayed to see this horrid movie.
And I really loathe kung fu movies as well.
How can civilised people watch such trash?
I will not watch/listen to entertainment riddled and dominated with fear,
hate, and rivers of blood and screams of victims.

I think Moslems and kosher jews do well to outlaw
american TV and music from their homes.

I do try to go to see/hear different stuff, but not all of it
has any redeeming features.

I am hard to please, and proud of it.
I spend more time reading and playing chess than
being at some gig, with my ears and mind being bashed to peices.
Most venues where jazz, rock, funk, bebop, et all is played
have appalling sound systems, and are far too loud.

Patrick Turner.

Very well said. Thanks, Patrick.

Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

good day is when (amongst other good things) you cried or laughed at least
once because (and with ) music.
hehe-not because something is called "music"............


--
--
--
.................................................. ........................
Choky
Prodanovic Aleksandar
YU

"don't use force, "don't use force,
use a larger hammer" use a larger tube
- Choky and IST"
- ZM
.................................................. ...........................
"Fred Nachbaur" wrote in message
news:sFRic.12117$NG2.11560@edtnps84...


Patrick Turner wrote:

[...]

When I think of the present, I am taken to the past.

Patrick Turner.

My, aren't you in a dour mood! You need to get out more, in mind if not
in body.

The more music I listen to, of all genres, the more I hear. The more I
appreciate, and eventually the more I enjoy it.

A wise person once told me, "Stop listening to a kind of music once it
stops changing for you." Starting long ago with a profound distaste for
50's mindless boppy rock&roll, suddenly the Beatles appeared. And with
the Beatles I really started listening in new ways, not the same old
knowing the entire Eine Kleine Nachtmusik by heart. I can still listen
to Mozart, but I have to take a different approach; hearing it more as
pleasant background, since I know it so well it no longer changes for me
when I listen to it critically.

I'm presently archiving my record/CD collection. I'm up to some 600
albums of all genres, and a long ways to go yet. Lots of great stuff to
sink my musical teeth into!!!

I'm discovering "new to me" music that's just been languishing for the
years. Old Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd, all the 70's British prog-rockers.
And I'm absolutely blown away by the "invisible renaissance" that
occurred during the 70's and 80's in pop music, and that apparently only
the cogniscenti recognized at the time. More narrow-minded duffers like
myself took some 30 years to finally get it. It can not be said, "This
is pop, this is rock, this is classical." Some of the work by Peter
Gabriel and friends is as classical/romantic "art music" as anything
written by Schumann or Brahms.

The pop/rock scene has been in an incredible flux since its roots as an
uncomfortable blend of black Blues and white Country. It has branched in
many different directions, some very pleasant and enlightening, and some
less so. Punk? Have a listen to old Pretenders. Roots of metal? Have a
listen to the San Francisco bands (Quicksilver, Jefferson Airplane) and
again- the brits: Led Zeppelin, . Metallica - perhaps one of the least
understood bands in the mainstream; some of it very "metal," but much of
it very balladic and beautiful. Also Nirvana. Not everyone's taste, but
certainly worthy of respect.

Pearl Jam and similar bands - I agree. There's not much content in the
recordings themselves. But the *experience* is in the live show -- and
you just can't get the same feeling from a PJ record as you can from a
show. (But do bring your ear plugs.) Oddly, it reminds me of Jerry
Garcia and the Grateful Dead. Their records were almost invariably lame
and boring (a notable exception being American Beauty), but their shows
were "happenings," events of the time that helped us to define who we
were in a very uncertain and scary time.

Put something on that you're unfamiliar with, with no preconceptions,
and a willingness to at least listen openly, and no resistance to liking
/ disliking, simply experience it and see how you feel after the
experience. Maybe listen to it again, just in case it takes time to sink
in (especially true of a lot of prog rock, jazz, and other
"experimental" media).

You might pleasantly surprise yourself!

Cheers,
Fred

--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

Hi RATs!

I like music. I don't worry about people who think it is the Devil's work.

They may worry about me, if they wish.

God bless us, one and all.

I am too old to be proud of the things I don't like.

I am more interested in sharing the things I like

Happy Ears!
Al



Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Patrick Turner wrote in message
I get out quite a lot, several nights a week, with my friends.
And I get out of the room if the music, film or art is crap,
or if someone I cannot argue with tells me, which is extremely seldom.

I think of both the past and future, the present being extremely brief.

Young ppl don't like the past, they have only the time for their future,
which is natural and good,
but it means they don't learn from the past, and they have not lived long
enough
to have a past to have learnt from, and some grow old and
learn not to learn at all.
Dour? or just realistic about the world?


I went through a long spell where I was obsessed and listened only to
Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr.,et al. I always associated
classical music with cartoons and bad '70s fucci-succi films (you
could use Eastern Bloc recorded classical music and not pay royalties
then). Images of Daffy Duck and the young and only mildly chubby (but
even then hairy) Ronald J. Hyatt when I hear the stuff.

Old people aren't who make the estateholders of such dead stars as
James Dean, Elvis, MM, Jayne, and others rich: it's young people. It's
young guys who put up posters of James Dean. It's young girls who buy
Marilyn purses and hats and tampon cases (!). The old people have no
such desire to buy this junk.

Britney Spears isn't going to be around forever. How many people talk
about Donny and Marie and Shaun Cassidy anymore?

Sam Byrams wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in message
I get out quite a lot, several nights a week, with my friends.
And I get out of the room if the music, film or art is crap,
or if someone I cannot argue with tells me, which is extremely seldom.

I think of both the past and future, the present being extremely brief.

Young ppl don't like the past, they have only the time for their future,
which is natural and good,
but it means they don't learn from the past, and they have not lived long
enough
to have a past to have learnt from, and some grow old and
learn not to learn at all.
Dour? or just realistic about the world?


I went through a long spell where I was obsessed and listened only to
Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr.,et al. I always associated
classical music with cartoons and bad '70s fucci-succi films (you
could use Eastern Bloc recorded classical music and not pay royalties
then). Images of Daffy Duck and the young and only mildly chubby (but
even then hairy) Ronald J. Hyatt when I hear the stuff.

Old people aren't who make the estateholders of such dead stars as
James Dean, Elvis, MM, Jayne, and others rich: it's young people. It's
young guys who put up posters of James Dean. It's young girls who buy
Marilyn purses and hats and tampon cases (!). The old people have no
such desire to buy this junk.

Britney Spears isn't going to be around forever. How many people talk
about Donny and Marie and Shaun Cassidy anymore?

Who are they?
I think the Britney's of this world keep popping up every few years.
Samantha Fox was big in '83.
They brighten everyone's life who likes to look at them, and fantasize what
could be done with them privately if they were young enough, and Britney were
willing.
and available, and not a bitchy cheeky young thing who thinks the idea of
anyone
over 35 bonking is repulsive.

Marilyn M immortalised herself by dying at 35, otherwise who would be thinking
of her
if the was an old hag bumbling around now?
Sabrina I thought was a more stunning sheila, and alas the victim of a plane
crash.
I never forget her appearing in a TV add where a poor bloke was trying to
explain
the benefits of using some new motor lubricant with Sabrina as his assistant.
Nobody watching looked at anything other than Sabrina's truly fabulous front.
Now there was a case of appeal bridging the generation gap!

But you are right about the young making the star's estates.

Most ppl over 40 see and listen to the stars on the screens, but they are over
the hysteria
that leads young girls to scream and cry at airports when the star arrives,
and they are simply not taken in by the star's aura, the larger than life
charisma.
Stars, along with politicions, are just blokes and sheilas who should remember
this.
Its the old who mutter "what the F does that twerp think he is!"

Of course some stars age well and become the real maestro, like some of the old
blues singers, and
classical pianists and violinists I have heard.
Sometimes it takes about 40 years to really get good at something.

But I reckon the 300B and 6550 are stars, and their estates have been made by
old foggies
buying them up and admiring them, and they way they glow.
It'd be impractical to have a young marilyn park her slippers under our bed,
but a 6550 is welcome to lodge its pins in our sockets.
And we even make a special place for "ladies who never age", like the 300B,
born in 1928, she can still sing with the best of them.
Marlene, eat your heart out.

Even odd tubes have old blokes rambling on about various philosophies about
circuits for enjoying them.

Patrick Turner.