I'm looking for recommendations for software for XP that can simultaneously
record from all inputs of two Echo Audiofire 12's and an M-Audio Audiophile
192. The included version of Traktion couldn't do it. I'll be using it to
record live to be mixed in Protools, so I only need the software for
recording, and not for mixing, but it has to be stable for long recordings.
I'd prefer not to have my pants pulled down over the price too. TIA

i think sonar will allow multiple interfaces at the same time.

nate

Nate Najar wrote:
i think sonar will allow multiple interfaces at the same time.

nate

Doesn't it depend on the hardware drivers as well?

ap wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:
i think sonar will allow multiple interfaces at the same time.

Doesn't it depend on the hardware drivers as well?

You can use multiple WDM devices (drivers that talk to that interface
model) but ASIO has a one-at-a-time rule. But like many rules, if
there's a good reason to break it, someone has figured out how to break
it. There are a few ASIO drivers now that "consolidate" multiple
devices, making Windows think that they're all one device, so everyone
is happy. Presonus has a driver like that for the Firepod now, and
Mackie is working on one for their next release of the Onyx 400F
driver. Centrance showed a "Universal ASIO Firewire Driver" at the AES
show, and they should be coming out with that as an aftermarket product
within the next few months.

The latest version of Mac OS 10 has this feature built in.

"Zigakly" wrote in message
news
I'm looking for recommendations for software for XP that can
simultaneously record from all inputs of two Echo Audiofire 12's and an
M-Audio Audiophile 192. The included version of Traktion couldn't do it.
I'll be using it to record live to be mixed in Protools, so I only need
the software for recording, and not for mixing, but it has to be stable
for long recordings. I'd prefer not to have my pants pulled down over the
price too. TIA

If both interfaces use drivers that expose regular windows MMC interfaces,
then any software that works with them, such as Adobe Audition, will do the
job.

Thing is, just finding software that works with the exposed interfaces is
not a full solution. You also need some means to keep the interfaces
synchronized with each other.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Zigakly" wrote in message
news
I'm looking for recommendations for software for XP that can
simultaneously record from all inputs of two Echo Audiofire 12's and an
M-Audio Audiophile 192. The included version of Traktion couldn't do it.
I'll be using it to record live to be mixed in Protools, so I only need
the software for recording, and not for mixing, but it has to be stable
for long recordings. I'd prefer not to have my pants pulled down over the
price too. TIA

If both interfaces use drivers that expose regular windows MMC interfaces,
then any software that works with them, such as Adobe Audition, will do
the job.

Right, I was expecting that the software would have to handle the hardware
directly, and not simply cater to ASIO.

Thing is, just finding software that works with the exposed interfaces is
not a full solution. You also need some means to keep the interfaces
synchronized with each other.

Word clock is my daddy. Unfortunately the configuration requires that the
outboard preamp/ADC be my master clock so as to control the Audiophile 192's
clock over S/PDIF, and it's just a DBX 386 with AKM chips. Could be better,
could be worse.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

ap wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:
i think sonar will allow multiple interfaces at the same time.

Doesn't it depend on the hardware drivers as well?

You can use multiple WDM devices (drivers that talk to that interface
model) but ASIO has a one-at-a-time rule. But like many rules, if
there's a good reason to break it, someone has figured out how to break
it. There are a few ASIO drivers now that "consolidate" multiple
devices, making Windows think that they're all one device, so everyone
is happy. Presonus has a driver like that for the Firepod now, and
Mackie is working on one for their next release of the Onyx 400F
driver. Centrance showed a "Universal ASIO Firewire Driver" at the AES
show, and they should be coming out with that as an aftermarket product
within the next few months.

That's the sort of thing I'm looking for, software with drivers that
accommodate my needs, since standard ASIO compliance won't cut it.

The latest version of Mac OS 10 has this feature built in.

And if G5's didn't come in the most retarded cases in the industry, I'd
probably have bought one.

It seems that the fellow that told me the two interfaces could be used
simultaneously thought I was doing it in OS X, and now even he says it can't
be done in XP without dedicated drivers from the hardware manufacturer.
However Echo is developing "multi-box" drivers for their products, and
should be going beta next week. The bad news is that it won't support my
Audiophile 192, so I lose those 4 tracks. I'm planning to track two room
mics and the stereo console outputs, which leaves 20 tracks for the stage
mics/DI's, and that's tight IMO. Those are 4 tracks I'm going to find a use
for if I have them. I wager ASIO drivers will come out that support
multiple interfaces from different manufacturers, but I know better than to
hold my breath for them.

Zigakly wrote:
And if G5's didn't come in the most retarded cases in the industry

I still don't think the world's ready for geek fashion -- either Apple's
verison of it or the non-Apple rejection of it.

(I don't care what the box looks like; I spend my time staring at the
monitor.)

Zigakly wrote:
I'm looking for recommendations for software for XP that can simultaneously
record from all inputs of two Echo Audiofire 12's and an M-Audio Audiophile
192. The included version of Traktion couldn't do it. I'll be using it to
record live to be mixed in Protools, so I only need the software for
recording, and not for mixing, but it has to be stable for long recordings.
I'd prefer not to have my pants pulled down over the price too. TIA

You could try the Asio4All driver... It will work if your soundcards
have WDM driver... you'll be able to chose any input/output from any
soundcard from applications that can use ASIO...

good luck !
Béru

"Joe Kesselman" wrote in message
. ..
Zigakly wrote:
And if G5's didn't come in the most retarded cases in the industry

I still don't think the world's ready for geek fashion -- either Apple's
verison of it or the non-Apple rejection of it.

(I don't care what the box looks like; I spend my time staring at the
monitor.)

I don't care what the thing looks like, let me fill you in on what it would
take to put a G5 into a road-worthy mobile rack:
- throw out everything except the motherboard, power supply, and CPU's
- modify aftermarket CPU heatsink fans to replace Apple's *bonehead* way of
dispersing heat with big slow fans and huge heatsinks
- custom build a 4U case that accommodates 4 hard drives, 2 optical drives

I could go on for days, but long story short, the sexy G5 towers can only be
racked by means of cutting the handles off with a Dremel, and hold less
hardware than a Shuttle XPC. God bless Apple for all kinds of things, but
they're got to drop the iTunes jalupa and get back to serving professionals.
I was 100% ready to buy a quad G5 but it simply couldn't get the job done
without gouging the core out of the Apple, so to speak. It broke my heart
to get a quad-core Opteron rig, but it's exceeding my expectations and I'm
frighteningly under-budget.

On 19 Dec 2005 17:35:20 -0800, "Mike Rivers" wrote:


ap wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:
i think sonar will allow multiple interfaces at the same time.

Doesn't it depend on the hardware drivers as well?

You can use multiple WDM devices (drivers that talk to that interface
model) but ASIO has a one-at-a-time rule. But like many rules, if
there's a good reason to break it, someone has figured out how to break
it. There are a few ASIO drivers now that "consolidate" multiple
devices, making Windows think that they're all one device, so everyone
is happy. Presonus has a driver like that for the Firepod now, and
Mackie is working on one for their next release of the Onyx 400F
driver. Centrance showed a "Universal ASIO Firewire Driver" at the AES
show, and they should be coming out with that as an aftermarket product
within the next few months.

The latest version of Mac OS 10 has this feature built in.

Just for reference, OS X 10.4 (Tiger) is the first version with "Aggregation"
(Apple's name for it).

This is actually a -really- important feature for OS X because otherwise it is
completely impossible to use the digital in on a Powerbook to record in Apple
Logic since Logic only allows selection of interfaces that include at least 1
output. Using aggregation, one can make a virtual interface that contains the
digital in and the analog i/o, and then Logic is happy.

Of course, it would be nice if Apple mentioned this problem and work-around on
the support site (I sent them feedback on that, so perhaps they do now).

Zigakly wrote:
I don't care what the thing looks like, let me fill you in on what it would
take to put a G5 into a road-worthy mobile rack:

OK, I grant that point. On the other hand, a Mac Mini would be rackable
relatively easily, as would a powerbook.

"Joe Kesselman" wrote in message
...
Zigakly wrote:
I don't care what the thing looks like, let me fill you in on what it
would take to put a G5 into a road-worthy mobile rack:

OK, I grant that point. On the other hand, a Mac Mini would be rackable
relatively easily, as would a powerbook.

Mac Mini: not enough CPU, only one internal HD, no PCI
Powerbook: too fragile, not enough CPU, only one internal HD, no PCI

Keep in mind this is for recording 24+ channels at 24/96 simultaneously,
then mixing it in-the-box, so I want to split the load between three SATA
drives apart from the boot drive. There is no feasible Mac option. The
closest is an Xserve Dual G5, but for the money I got far more with what I
got. I could add a 4-drive external SATA case without even having to buy a
host card.

Hi,

I just did a test, I've recorded 24 channels (a couple of them where
duplicate, my MOTU 828mkII doesn't have that many inputs) at 96 kHz, 24
bit, polyphonic BWF.
I also didn't mix, Boom Recorder doesn't support mixing, I just dumped
the audio on disk.

I had no problems with it, granted, 26 channels was to much for this
poor little piece of fruit.
Oh yea, I was using a 12" iBook 1.2 Ghz G4, and recording on the
internal disk.

Regards,
Take Vos

I could go on for days, but long story short, the sexy G5 towers can
only be
racked by means of cutting the handles off with a Dremel,

www.redco.com has a G5 vertical mounting system for $150, & apparently
Marathon can do it too, without cutting anything.

I was 100% ready to buy a quad G5 but it simply couldn't get the job
done
without gouging the core out of the Apple, so to speak. It broke my
heart
to get a quad-core Opteron rig, but it's exceeding my expectations and
I'm
frighteningly under-budget.

The main drawback to the quad G5 at the moment is the nonexistence of
PCI-express interface hardware.

Scott Fraser

Powerbook: too fragile,

Too fragile? It may not take slogging around on the floor of a Land
Rover in the Sahara as well as a Nagra, but with normal handling care
they're every bit as robust as any other nonlinear recording device. A
whole lot of location recording gets done on Powerbooks.

not enough CPU,

Have you looked at Metacorder? It can do a lot of tracks for long takes
with a minimal CPU hit. It's just a recorder, though. Minimal mixing.

only one internal HD,

You use external drives for high track count recording with Powerbooks.

no PCI

Use FireWire i/o with Powerbooks.

Keep in mind this is for recording 24+ channels at 24/96
simultaneously,
then mixing it in-the-box,

Metacorder should handle the tracking load. For mixing that many tracks
at 96k you'll need a seriously pimped G5, though.

so I want to split the load between three SATA
drives apart from the boot drive. There is no feasible Mac option.

Tracks can be spread out on any number of external FW800 drives,
limited only by FireWire bandwidth.

The
closest is an Xserve Dual G5, but for the money I got far more with
what I
got. I could add a 4-drive external SATA case without even having to
buy a
host card.

I think these enclosures are available for Macs as well. I suspect
everything you're saying about power v price, though, is why Apple is
moving to Intel CPUs soon.

Scott Fraser

Scott Fraser wrote:

not enough CPU,

Have you looked at Metacorder? It can do a lot of tracks for long takes
with a minimal CPU hit. It's just a recorder, though. Minimal mixing.

Compared to Boom Recorder, what justifies the ten-fold higher price of
Metacorder?

Lars


--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim:

Zigakly wrote:
Mac Mini: not enough CPU, only one internal HD, no PCI
Powerbook: too fragile, not enough CPU, only one internal HD, no PCI

Given FW800, I'm not sure lack of PCI is a disaster. I grant the point
about internal HDs, but an external FW HD is also rackable...

Keep in mind this is for recording 24+ channels at 24/96 simultaneously

Folks are doing this over Firewire. "If it happens, it must be possible..."

Recording isn't a hugely heavy processor load; you just have to keep
moving stuff from input buffers to disk buffers.

Compared to Boom Recorder, what justifies the ten-fold higher price
of
Metacorder?

I don't know what Boom Recorder is, but Metacorder is designed for
bulletproof integration with time code locked location film or video
shoots, where going into record mode & staying in record mode (unlike
many music oriented DAWs) is absolutely non-negotiably crucial.
Whether the price is justified depends on whether your contract has an
indemnity clause holding you financially responsible for a production
losing time, & thus money, when there's a snafu in the sound
department.

Scott Fraser

Scott Fraser wrote:

Compared to Boom Recorder, what justifies the ten-fold higher price
of Metacorder?

I don't know what Boom Recorder is, but Metacorder is designed for
bulletproof integration with time code locked location film or video
shoots

Neither do I, but it was recently discussed so I looked up the prices.
I'm sure there is a good reason, but $1K is very steep for something
conceptually rather straight forward... I guess sooner or later my
Powerbook or future Mac will make recording duty. I'm trying to figure
out if there is any point in using the computer as a recorder.

In the mean time I use a stand alone 3RU, light weight, 24 channel
recorder. Seems more efficient in many ways. I use a second hand Mackie
SDR, with 24 line and/or ADAT ins/outs a nice meter bridge, simple tape
recorder controls and easy transfer of discs to the Mac. It cost me less
than I'd have to pay for say an RME Fireface or a MOTU 828 or Metric
Halo interface or a Powerbook or even an iBook alone and it runs like a
clock (even when I only record 2 channels simultaneously...). Even after
I install the latest OS-version on the Powerbook...

Seasons greetings
Lars


--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim:

Got busy for a while, lost track of this thread... combining replies:

Powerbook: too fragile,

Too fragile? It may not take slogging around on the floor of a Land
Rover in the Sahara as well as a Nagra, but with normal handling care
they're every bit as robust as any other nonlinear recording device. A
whole lot of location recording gets done on Powerbooks.

My target market involves recording in bars and clubs, where I have only
marginal control over my work area. A laptop's connectors are not very
durable, and it's not especially easy to encase with reasonable stress
relief, along with the external drives, where rack-mount drive cases are
generally overpriced and loud as hell since they're aimed at server
applications. You end up paying a lot more for someone you then have to
hack around with.

not enough CPU,

Have you looked at Metacorder? It can do a lot of tracks for long takes
with a minimal CPU hit. It's just a recorder, though. Minimal mixing.

The CPU is for mixing. I would buy two computers for the job, but again the
external drive issue complicates the live rig too much. I wanted
professionally racked and loomed gear that's as plug-and-record as possible,
and with the best connectivity to the mix station as possible. I decided to
take the mix station on the road since it was easier and less expensive to
configure one box that did both jobs well than to do one for each job.

only one internal HD,

You use external drives for high track count recording with Powerbooks.

see above

no PCI

Use FireWire i/o with Powerbooks.

Required for the mix station, I'm running three VGA monitors.

Keep in mind this is for recording 24+ channels at 24/96
simultaneously,
then mixing it in-the-box,

Metacorder should handle the tracking load. For mixing that many tracks
at 96k you'll need a seriously pimped G5, though.

Even a seriously pimped G5 needs external drives, a reduculously expensive
video card for more than two monitors (my two vid cards and three LCD
monitors cost $1000 total), and there's no reasonable means to rack them for
road use (see below)

so I want to split the load between three SATA
drives apart from the boot drive. There is no feasible Mac option.

Tracks can be spread out on any number of external FW800 drives,
limited only by FireWire bandwidth.

And cabling, physical space, budget, etc...

The
closest is an Xserve Dual G5, but for the money I got far more with
what I
got. I could add a 4-drive external SATA case without even having to
buy a
host card.

I think these enclosures are available for Macs as well.

But a 1x PCI-E host card is needed which doesn't exist yet AFAIK. My
motherboard has 8 3GB/s SATA2 connectors. The quad G5 has two.

I suspect
everything you're saying about power v price, though, is why Apple is
moving to Intel CPUs soon.

Actually the quad G5 was well within my budget, it's all the
warranty-voiding modifications that were required that I couldn't afford.

I could go on for days, but long story short, the sexy G5 towers can
only be
racked by means of cutting the handles off with a Dremel,

www.redco.com has a G5 vertical mounting system for $150, & apparently
Marathon can do it too, without cutting anything.

So on top of all the external gear and custom racks to add what can already
fit in my $100 4RU case that won't fit in a G5, I'm then supposed to spring
for a 12RU shock-mount case? I've also got my PC in one case, and the
multitrack interfaces, patchbay, and console power supply in another 6RU
case. This allowed me to have the $850 custom cables loomed and secured
into the case, minimizing wear on the cables, patchbay, and interfaces. The
console end of the loom (24 cable ends coming off every 1.25" each + extra
strain relief) is approx 4' long and rather stiff, so I wouldn't want that
sticking up out of my computer case. I'm mixing in-the-box in Protools
M-Powered using the S/PDIF output from an Audiophile 192, so I have no need
for the multitrack interfaces while mixing. I would not want them housed in
the same case. I might however want the interfaces beside the console, the
PC hidden under the desk, and a monitor 25' away where someone else could
start/stop/monitor the recording using my wireless keyboard/trackball while
I mix FOH.

Zigakly wrote:

My target market involves recording in bars and clubs, where I have only
marginal control over my work area. A laptop's connectors are not very
durable, and it's not especially easy to encase with reasonable stress
relief, along with the external drives, where rack-mount drive cases are
generally overpriced and loud as hell since they're aimed at server
applications. You end up paying a lot more for someone you then have to
hack around with.

What have you been looking at? Admittedly, the 4-pin Firewire connector
that's pretty much standard on laptop PCs is pretty sleazy, but USB
connectors are fairly robust. And external USB/Fireiwre drives in a
case just a little larger than the drive itself are common and
inexpensive. I've seen 160 GB USB drives in a case for $75 or less.

I don't know how a multi-channel USB audio interface and USB external
drive co-exist on the same controller, but you can get a PCMCIA
adapter, either Firewire or USB, for the laptop for not much money (I
think I paid about $20 for the Firewire one I use) and that gives you a
full sized connector and a separate controller than the built-in one.

The CPU is for mixing. I would buy two computers for the job, but again the
external drive issue complicates the live rig too much. I wanted
professionally racked and loomed gear that's as plug-and-record as possible,
and with the best connectivity to the mix station as possible.

Pick up a Mackie MDR24/96. They're dirt cheap nowadays, and you'll have
24 analog inputs (and outputs). Plug it into the console, and take home
a disk drive full of concert. There are relatively straightforward ways
to move the data to a computer for mixing. Fastest and most reliable is
a Firewire docking station for the Mackie removable disk drive.
Completely integrated, push the buttons just like a real recorder. No
computer necessary on site. You're not going to mix anything but drinks
at a bar. And you can carry it under one arm.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...

Pick up a Mackie MDR24/96. They're dirt cheap nowadays, and you'll have
24 analog inputs (and outputs). Plug it into the console, and take home
a disk drive full of concert. There are relatively straightforward ways
to move the data to a computer for mixing. Fastest and most reliable is
a Firewire docking station for the Mackie removable disk drive.
Completely integrated, push the buttons just like a real recorder. No
computer necessary on site. You're not going to mix anything but drinks
at a bar. And you can carry it under one arm.

Looking at eBay the common recent Mackie MDR24/96 asking prices are about
$1,000 with no takers. The last selling price was about $525. They were
what $3K new? Talk about depreciation!

The risk part of the deal is that any repairs would probably be priced in
accordance with their old street price.

Yes, Mackie MDR24/96s are dirt cheap.

The cheapest 24 channels of computer audio interfaces worth buying would be
about $600 they don't have balanced inputs, and you still need the computer.

Arny Krueger wrote:
Looking at eBay the common recent Mackie MDR24/96 asking prices are about
$1,000 with no takers. The last selling price was about $525. They were
what $3K new? Talk about depreciation!

The risk part of the deal is that any repairs would probably be priced in
accordance with their old street price.

The risk is that there really are no repairs. There's an obsolete
Celeron motherboard inside, and one or two clever folks have reported
substituting something else for it successfully but there's no
documented heart-transplant procedure. Disk drives can be replaced, and
at least for now Mackie is still offering a BIOS upgrade that allows
the use of disk drives up to 120 GB, which is plenty for recording and
which are still fairly easy to buy cheaply. There are indeed a couple
of unique Mackie boards in there that probably can no longer be
replaced, and if one of those goes, it's usually time to either scrap
the recorder or look for a donor machine. But those don't seem to be
the weak points. Generally these can be fixed by re-seating ribbon
cables, re-setting the BIOS settings, or with disk drive maintenance.

Yes, Mackie MDR24/96s are dirt cheap.

And reliable as dirt, too (in a good way).

The biggest argument against it these days short of the risk of
non-repairability is that there's no practical way to make a 96 kHz
recording with it. You can get AES/EBU I/O cards (at pretty steep cost)
and use outboard A/D converters, but you can only get 12 tracks that
way. I haven't found any justification for using 96 kHz recording on
remote projects, in fact I usualy use 16-bit resolution, but there some
people who perceive no 96K capabiliity as the kiss of death for them
ever getting a recording gig.