[Sonnova]

I just received a new tubed preamp which I will not identify (don't want to
get anyone in trouble) except to say that the maker has a hyphenated name (no
I didn't buy it. It was loaned). I don't like to think that people in this
business are purposely ripping the public off, but after looking this thing
over, I think somebody is having an costly joke at the (extreme) expense of
the audiophile community. This particular preamp is comprised of two 6922s
(6DJ8/ECC88) feeding a MOSFET buffer stage to give it a low output impedance.
The unit is divided into two sections, a digital section which uses a
microprocessor (or microcontroller) to handle the remote controllable
switching (5 high-level inputs) volume and balance duties, and of course, the
all important audio section. The audio section is very simple, and very
straightforward. If one would forego the fancy computer control section, one
could copy this circuit, using the highest quality components for less than
$300. There is virtually nothing in it. If there are any analog electronics
engineers reading this (especially those who are familiar with both tubes and
solid-state circuitry, you can probably envision this circuit in your head -
and you'd be right.

Build quality is also so-so (the remote, carved from a single block of
anodized aluminum is nicely made, though). It has a nicely made fascia with
machined plexiglass Art-Deco "covers" over the two tubes (very Flash Gordon).
The front panel is a 1/4" thick piece of gold anodized aluminum, not unlike
similar finishes used on entry-level "high-end" pieces since the old Dynaco
days. The cover is a bent piece of steel very much like that which covers a
$200 Japanese receiver. The back apron sports some nice single mounting hole
WBT style gold RCAs, but is nothing out of the ordinary. What I have
described to you is a preamp that could be built by any manufacturer of
high-end tube equipment and sold for less that $2000 retail. It's that simple
and that ordinary. But here's the reason why I have gone to all of the
trouble to describe this pre-amp to you. It retails for - sit down for this
- TWENTY THOUSAND US DOLLARS! More than many new cars. I haven't actually
listened to it yet, but for that price it would have to be head and shoulders
above anything that I can think of and it won't be, I suspect. Oh, it will be
competent and will likely perform well, but so do many other pre-amps for a
third this one's asking price and most of them look like they cost the money.
This one looks like a preamp costing ONE TENTH the price or less.

Gentlemen, looking at what this unit has in it, buyers, if any, will be
getting monumentally ripped-off. I am flabbergasted by the price of this
thing. High-end audio has finally gone TOO FAR. My humble opinion, you
understand. 8^)

[[email protected]]

On Sep 24, 8:54=A0am, Sonnova wrote:

Gentlemen, looking at what this unit has in it, buyers, if any, will be
getting monumentally ripped-off. I am flabbergasted by the price of this
thing. High-end audio has finally gone TOO FAR. My humble opinion, you
understand. 8^)

Who are you calling a 'gentleman'?

That being written, it is a sad, brutal fact that there are but so
many audio circuits and but so many sorts of components to make into
those circuits.

In my opinion, there is no audio component on the face of the earth
with the remote, very distantly remote possible exception of speakers
that justifies a real-world cost of more than $2,000 or so in 2009 US
dollars - and even that is a stretch.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Sonnova]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:17:06 -0700, wrote
(in article ):

On Sep 24, 8:54=A0am, Sonnova wrote:

Gentlemen, looking at what this unit has in it, buyers, if any, will be
getting monumentally ripped-off. I am flabbergasted by the price of this
thing. High-end audio has finally gone TOO FAR. My humble opinion, you
understand. 8^)

Who are you calling a 'gentleman'?

That being written, it is a sad, brutal fact that there are but so
many audio circuits and but so many sorts of components to make into
those circuits.

In my opinion, there is no audio component on the face of the earth
with the remote, very distantly remote possible exception of speakers
that justifies a real-world cost of more than $2,000 or so in 2009 US
dollars - and even that is a stretch.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Well, as for the "gentlemen" part, I must admit that I was giving you all the
benefit of the doubt. 8^)

But I agree with your point. This preamp is OUTRAGEOUSLY PRICED. There is
simply NO way anyone could justify this amount of money for this thing. I've
listened to it today, and it has no bad traits that I can detect and sounds
fine. In fact. I don't notice (yet) any difference between it and my AR SP11
Mk III which is almost 20 years old! One thing that is puzzling though.
According to the user's manual, which I was perusing late last night, the
preamp INVERTs the signal! Now I know that it has an odd number of active
stages (three per channel: two tube gain stages and one MOSFET buffer stage),
but still, I would think that they could have opted for a drain-follower on
the MOSFET and gotten an even lower output impedance (the reason given for
the MOSFET buffer in the first place) without inverting the signal.

[H Davis]

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...
I just received a new tubed preamp which I will not identify (don't want to
get anyone in trouble) except to say that the maker has a hyphenated name
(no
I didn't buy it. It was loaned). I don't like to think that people in this
business are purposely ripping the public off, but after looking this
thing
over, I think somebody is having an costly joke at the (extreme) expense
of
the audiophile community. This particular preamp is comprised of two 6922s
(6DJ8/ECC88) feeding a MOSFET buffer stage to give it a low output
impedance.
The unit is divided into two sections, a digital section which uses a
microprocessor (or microcontroller) to handle the remote controllable
switching (5 high-level inputs) volume and balance duties, and of course,
the
all important audio section. The audio section is very simple, and very
straightforward. If one would forego the fancy computer control section,
one
could copy this circuit, using the highest quality components for less
than
$300. There is virtually nothing in it. If there are any analog
electronics
engineers reading this (especially those who are familiar with both tubes
and
solid-state circuitry, you can probably envision this circuit in your
head -
and you'd be right.

I am just such an engineer, and I am not surprised. I've seen alot of junk
like this on sale in various snob-appeal retail stores.

Build quality is also so-so (the remote, carved from a single block of
anodized aluminum is nicely made, though). It has a nicely made fascia
with
machined plexiglass Art-Deco "covers" over the two tubes (very Flash
Gordon).
The front panel is a 1/4" thick piece of gold anodized aluminum, not
unlike
similar finishes used on entry-level "high-end" pieces since the old
Dynaco
days. The cover is a bent piece of steel very much like that which covers
a
$200 Japanese receiver. The back apron sports some nice single mounting
hole
WBT style gold RCAs, but is nothing out of the ordinary. What I have
described to you is a preamp that could be built by any manufacturer of
high-end tube equipment and sold for less that $2000 retail. It's that
simple
and that ordinary. But here's the reason why I have gone to all of the
trouble to describe this pre-amp to you. It retails for - sit down for
this
- TWENTY THOUSAND US DOLLARS! More than many new cars. I haven't actually
listened to it yet, but for that price it would have to be head and
shoulders
above anything that I can think of and it won't be, I suspect. Oh, it will
be
competent and will likely perform well, but so do many other pre-amps for
a
third this one's asking price and most of them look like they cost the
money.
This one looks like a preamp costing ONE TENTH the price or less.

Gentlemen, looking at what this unit has in it, buyers, if any, will be
getting monumentally ripped-off. I am flabbergasted by the price of this
thing. High-end audio has finally gone TOO FAR. My humble opinion, you
understand. 8^)

As long as there are gullible audio hobbyists with alot more money that
technical knowledge, these scams will continue. The makers know they won't
sell many of these, but selling only a few will give them a substantial
profit. As it has vacuum tubes in the signal chain, I wouldn't install the
thing in my system even if it were given to me as a gift!

[Sonnova]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:54:43 -0700, H Davis wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Gentlemen, looking at what this unit has in it, buyers, if any, will be
getting monumentally ripped-off. I am flabbergasted by the price of this
thing. High-end audio has finally gone TOO FAR. My humble opinion, you
understand. 8^)

As long as there are gullible audio hobbyists with alot more money that
technical knowledge, these scams will continue. The makers know they won't
sell many of these, but selling only a few will give them a substantial
profit. As it has vacuum tubes in the signal chain, I wouldn't install the
thing in my system even if it were given to me as a gift!

I have nothing against vacuum tubes. In fact my reference pre-amp is an Audio
Research SP11 MKIII and my power amps are VTL 140 monoblocks. My system
sounds GREAT. Tubes and transistors are a means to an end. prejudice against
either merely limits choices in my humble opinion.

[H Davis]

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:54:43 -0700, H Davis wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Gentlemen, looking at what this unit has in it, buyers, if any, will be
getting monumentally ripped-off. I am flabbergasted by the price of this
thing. High-end audio has finally gone TOO FAR. My humble opinion, you
understand. 8^)

As long as there are gullible audio hobbyists with alot more money that
technical knowledge, these scams will continue. The makers know they
won't
sell many of these, but selling only a few will give them a substantial
profit. As it has vacuum tubes in the signal chain, I wouldn't install
the
thing in my system even if it were given to me as a gift!

I have nothing against vacuum tubes. In fact my reference pre-amp is an
Audio
Research SP11 MKIII and my power amps are VTL 140 monoblocks. My system
sounds GREAT. Tubes and transistors are a means to an end. prejudice
against
either merely limits choices in my humble opinion.

Regarding vacuum tubes, please read:
http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm
It is possible for a tube preamp to sound as good as any solid state
preamp - until the tubes degrade, that is. However, if your tube power amp
has an output transformer (and all I know of do), there is NO WAY it could
have the low frequency power bandwidth and freedom from distortion of a
decent direct-coupled solid state power amp.

[Sonnova]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:44:32 -0700, H Davis wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:54:43 -0700, H Davis wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Gentlemen, looking at what this unit has in it, buyers, if any, will be
getting monumentally ripped-off. I am flabbergasted by the price of this
thing. High-end audio has finally gone TOO FAR. My humble opinion, you
understand. 8^)

As long as there are gullible audio hobbyists with alot more money that
technical knowledge, these scams will continue. The makers know they
won't
sell many of these, but selling only a few will give them a substantial
profit. As it has vacuum tubes in the signal chain, I wouldn't install
the
thing in my system even if it were given to me as a gift!

I have nothing against vacuum tubes. In fact my reference pre-amp is an
Audio
Research SP11 MKIII and my power amps are VTL 140 monoblocks. My system
sounds GREAT. Tubes and transistors are a means to an end. prejudice
against
either merely limits choices in my humble opinion.

Regarding vacuum tubes, please read:
http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm
It is possible for a tube preamp to sound as good as any solid state
preamp - until the tubes degrade, that is. However, if your tube power amp
has an output transformer (and all I know of do), there is NO WAY it could
have the low frequency power bandwidth and freedom from distortion of a
decent direct-coupled solid state power amp.


I read the article by Howard Davis that you sent me to. When you remove all
of his objections to tubes as electric guitar amps (In my opinion a
solid-body electric guitar is the worlds ugliest-sounding instrument. I
literally hate them), it boils down to his objections to the nonlinearities
introduced by output transformers.

While it is true that low frequency performance is better on solid-state
amps, that advantage goes away as the frequency rises and the degree to which
it occurs in the first place varies with different manufacturers. The poor
low-frequency square wave response and elevated levels of low frequency
distortion are, of course measurable (and the amount and severity of the
problem are highly dependent on how carefully that transformer is designed
and constructed. High-end tube amps generally use ultralinear transformers
that are well designed and well executed), but they aren't particularly
audible because the human ear is fairly insensitive to that kind of
low-frequency non-linearity (in extreme example, it can be heard in doirect
comparison, though). It's a lot like linear-tracking in phonograph tone-arms.
On paper, it looks like a slam-dunk in favor of linear-trackers, but in
reality, once high quality linear-trackers were on the market, it was found
that the difference in actual performance between a linear-tracking tone-arm
and a well designed and executed pivoted arm was, at best, a tertiary effect.
This is true with well designed tube power amps as well. The differences
between the theoretical and measured performance of a high-quality tube amp
and a high-quality transistor amp looks as if the solid-state unit should be
far superior. In reality, good amps of both design philosophies can both
sound very good (and sometimes, surprisingly alike) across the entire
spectrum. In fact, in a recent double-blind shootout between a solid-state
Mark Levinson power amp and a tubed Audio Research amp of the same power,
little to NO difference could be detected between the two from a panel of
experienced listeners. Again It comes down to good design.

Mr. Davis, like most of us, has his prejudices and biases and his comments on
tubed guitar amplifiers might well accurately characterize those devices, I
wouldn't know. But I maintain that these guitar amps have little to do with a
good, modern, high-end tubed power amplifier which is designed for completely
different purpose.

As a preamp, tubes work really well. My AR SP11, for instance, was, when it
was released, hailed as the finest sounding preamp in the world. Today, some
twenty years after the last one was made, it still holds it's own next to
anything you might want to put against it (and measure like new). I know this
because I get sent preamps, both tube and transistor, all the time to review
and that way, I get to keep-up with the progress in circuit design. True, the
SP11 is not 100% tube, as each 6992/ECC88 in the circuit (it has 6) is paired
with MOSFETs which, among other things, keep the tubes biased on the linear
portion of their curves as they age. By the way, I change the tubes in my
preamp every three years.

At the moment, I have the aforementioned C-J in house along with a recent
Krell solid-state unit, a KAV-280p. While both perform superbly, they are no
better than my SP11, which at more than 20 years old is worth more on the
used market than it cost new (and significantly more than this current
Krell). I will say that Krell stuff has come a long way in the last few
years. It wasn't long ago when every Krell component I heard reminded me of a
surgical operating room (or an iceberg). While everything was squeeky-clean
and crystal clear, it was also cold and lifeless, robbing the music of any
warmth or feeling. This seems to no longer be the case.

Now, if tube equipment was obsolete, there wouldn't be so many manufacturers,
all over the world, still making tubed audio gear. Somebody needs to look-up
the term "obsolete". It does not mean "superseded by another technology", it
means "Out of date. Completely replaced. No longer used or made. This is
clearly not the case of tubes. If you want an example of obsolete audio
technology, try wire-recorders or 78-RPM shellac discs!

One other point that I'd like to make is that used tubed audio gear commands
high prices at flea markets and other used audio marts. This is not the case
with most older solid-state gear, even expensive stuff. I only mention this
to point out that while techno-freaks tend to pooh-pooh tubed equipment,
music lovers seem to find that it has a lot of intrinsic value, so don't
count tubes out.

[H Davis]

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:44:32 -0700, H Davis wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:54:43 -0700, H Davis wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Gentlemen, looking at what this unit has in it, buyers, if any, will
be
getting monumentally ripped-off. I am flabbergasted by the price of
this
thing. High-end audio has finally gone TOO FAR. My humble opinion, you
understand. 8^)

As long as there are gullible audio hobbyists with alot more money that
technical knowledge, these scams will continue. The makers know they
won't
sell many of these, but selling only a few will give them a substantial
profit. As it has vacuum tubes in the signal chain, I wouldn't install
the
thing in my system even if it were given to me as a gift!

I have nothing against vacuum tubes. In fact my reference pre-amp is an
Audio
Research SP11 MKIII and my power amps are VTL 140 monoblocks. My system
sounds GREAT. Tubes and transistors are a means to an end. prejudice
against
either merely limits choices in my humble opinion.

Regarding vacuum tubes, please read:
http://howard.davis2.home.att.net/Tu...SolidState.htm
It is possible for a tube preamp to sound as good as any solid state
preamp - until the tubes degrade, that is. However, if your tube power
amp
has an output transformer (and all I know of do), there is NO WAY it
could
have the low frequency power bandwidth and freedom from distortion of a
decent direct-coupled solid state power amp.


I read the article by Howard Davis that you sent me to. When you remove
all
of his objections to tubes as electric guitar amps (In my opinion a
solid-body electric guitar is the worlds ugliest-sounding instrument. I
literally hate them), it boils down to his objections to the
nonlinearities
introduced by output transformers.

I am the author of that article - it is my website.
Electric guitars can only sound as good as the electronic equipment they
must be used with.
The output transformer is a major problem, but many other defects inherent
in tube technology are addressed as well. Still, if you like it, use it.

While it is true that low frequency performance is better on solid-state
amps, that advantage goes away as the frequency rises and the degree to
which
it occurs in the first place varies with different manufacturers. The poor
low-frequency square wave response and elevated levels of low frequency
distortion are, of course measurable (and the amount and severity of the
problem are highly dependent on how carefully that transformer is designed
and constructed. High-end tube amps generally use ultralinear transformers
that are well designed and well executed), but they aren't particularly
audible because the human ear is fairly insensitive to that kind of
low-frequency non-linearity (in extreme example, it can be heard in
doirect
comparison, though). It's a lot like linear-tracking in phonograph
tone-arms.
On paper, it looks like a slam-dunk in favor of linear-trackers, but in
reality, once high quality linear-trackers were on the market, it was
found
that the difference in actual performance between a linear-tracking
tone-arm
and a well designed and executed pivoted arm was, at best, a tertiary
effect.
This is true with well designed tube power amps as well. The differences
between the theoretical and measured performance of a high-quality tube
amp
and a high-quality transistor amp looks as if the solid-state unit should
be
far superior. In reality, good amps of both design philosophies can both
sound very good (and sometimes, surprisingly alike) across the entire
spectrum. In fact, in a recent double-blind shootout between a solid-state
Mark Levinson power amp and a tubed Audio Research amp of the same power,
little to NO difference could be detected between the two from a panel of
experienced listeners. Again It comes down to good design.

What speakers were used for that evaluation? The reason that many cannot
perceive the audible deficiencies of a tube power amp as compared to a
solid-state amp is that their speakers are far worse than any amp at
frequencies below 50 Hz or so. Also, if the evaluation is done with program
material without substantial content in the bottom octave (16 to 40 Hz or
so), the tube amp deficiencies in this area will not present themselves.

Mr. Davis, like most of us, has his prejudices and biases and his comments
on
tubed guitar amplifiers might well accurately characterize those devices,
I
wouldn't know. But I maintain that these guitar amps have little to do
with a
good, modern, high-end tubed power amplifier which is designed for
completely
different purpose.

As a preamp, tubes work really well. My AR SP11, for instance, was, when
it
was released, hailed as the finest sounding preamp in the world.

"Hailed as?" I for one give no credence to commercials, and I suspect that
many reviewers are influenced by those that give them the equipment to
evaluate.

Today, some
twenty years after the last one was made, it still holds it's own next to
anything you might want to put against it (and measure like new). I know
this
because I get sent preamps, both tube and transistor, all the time to
review
and that way, I get to keep-up with the progress in circuit design. True,
the
SP11 is not 100% tube, as each 6992/ECC88 in the circuit (it has 6) is
paired
with MOSFETs which, among other things, keep the tubes biased on the
linear
portion of their curves as they age. By the way, I change the tubes in my
preamp every three years.

Transistors and ICs need never be changed, unless they become defective. In
properly designed equipment, this very rarely occurs. I know because I have
designed and use such equipment.

At the moment, I have the aforementioned C-J in house along with a recent
Krell solid-state unit, a KAV-280p. While both perform superbly, they are
no
better than my SP11, which at more than 20 years old is worth more on the
used market than it cost new (and significantly more than this current
Krell). I will say that Krell stuff has come a long way in the last few
years. It wasn't long ago when every Krell component I heard reminded me
of a
surgical operating room (or an iceberg). While everything was
squeeky-clean
and crystal clear, it was also cold and lifeless, robbing the music of any
warmth or feeling. This seems to no longer be the case.

Audio reproduction equipment should be totally transparent. If "warmth" or
whatever is added, it is NOT transparent. A little boost of the lower
midrange will "warm" things, but I only want to hear the sounds the
musicians produced.

Now, if tube equipment was obsolete, there wouldn't be so many
manufacturers,
all over the world, still making tubed audio gear. Somebody needs to
look-up
the term "obsolete". It does not mean "superseded by another technology",
it
means "Out of date. Completely replaced. No longer used or made. This is
clearly not the case of tubes. If you want an example of obsolete audio
technology, try wire-recorders or 78-RPM shellac discs!

The fact there is some market demand for something does not mean there is
nothing better available. It means that for reasons of snob appeal, fad
appeal, sales promotion, technical ignorance, etc., some people are
persuaded it is worth buying. As an engineer, I believe otherwise.

One other point that I'd like to make is that used tubed audio gear
commands
high prices at flea markets and other used audio marts. This is not the
case
with most older solid-state gear, even expensive stuff. I only mention
this
to point out that while techno-freaks tend to pooh-pooh tubed equipment,
music lovers seem to find that it has a lot of intrinsic value, so don't
count tubes out.

Old solid state gear, as from the 1970s, often had sometimes audible design
defects. Old tube equipment has nostalgia appeal that makes it desirable to
some - like an old Philco radio - but soundwise? Forget it!

[Alan N]

I believe that particular model was a LIMITED EDITION release, hence even
higher "premium" pricing on top of the usual "pricey" C-J gear. In todays
economy, the "street prices" for C-J, as well as other "high-end" gear, is
substantially less than "retail." C-J gear is typically highly rated by
critics and consumers alike, and the "cost" of designing, marketing,
distributing, and warranting electronics is a LOT more than the cost of the
components. As long as there is a "market" for extravagant audio gear,
there will be manufacturers happy to oblige!

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...
I just received a new tubed preamp which I will not identify (don't want to
get anyone in trouble) except to say that the maker has a hyphenated name
(no
I didn't buy it. It was loaned). I don't like to think that people in this
business are purposely ripping the public off, but after looking this
thing
over, I think somebody is having an costly joke at the (extreme) expense
of
the audiophile community. This particular preamp is comprised of two 6922s
(6DJ8/ECC88) feeding a MOSFET buffer stage to give it a low output
impedance.
The unit is divided into two sections, a digital section which uses a
microprocessor (or microcontroller) to handle the remote controllable
switching (5 high-level inputs) volume and balance duties, and of course,
the
all important audio section. The audio section is very simple, and very
straightforward. If one would forego the fancy computer control section,
one
could copy this circuit, using the highest quality components for less
than
$300. There is virtually nothing in it. If there are any analog
electronics
engineers reading this (especially those who are familiar with both tubes
and
solid-state circuitry, you can probably envision this circuit in your
head -
and you'd be right.

Build quality is also so-so (the remote, carved from a single block of
anodized aluminum is nicely made, though). It has a nicely made fascia
with
machined plexiglass Art-Deco "covers" over the two tubes (very Flash
Gordon).
The front panel is a 1/4" thick piece of gold anodized aluminum, not
unlike
similar finishes used on entry-level "high-end" pieces since the old
Dynaco
days. The cover is a bent piece of steel very much like that which covers
a
$200 Japanese receiver. The back apron sports some nice single mounting
hole
WBT style gold RCAs, but is nothing out of the ordinary. What I have
described to you is a preamp that could be built by any manufacturer of
high-end tube equipment and sold for less that $2000 retail. It's that
simple
and that ordinary. But here's the reason why I have gone to all of the
trouble to describe this pre-amp to you. It retails for - sit down for
this
- TWENTY THOUSAND US DOLLARS! More than many new cars. I haven't actually
listened to it yet, but for that price it would have to be head and
shoulders
above anything that I can think of and it won't be, I suspect. Oh, it will
be
competent and will likely perform well, but so do many other pre-amps for
a
third this one's asking price and most of them look like they cost the
money.
This one looks like a preamp costing ONE TENTH the price or less.

Gentlemen, looking at what this unit has in it, buyers, if any, will be
getting monumentally ripped-off. I am flabbergasted by the price of this
thing. High-end audio has finally gone TOO FAR. My humble opinion, you
understand. 8^)

[Sonnova]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 06:30:44 -0700, Alan N wrote
(in article ):

I believe that particular model was a LIMITED EDITION release, hence even
higher "premium" pricing on top of the usual "pricey" C-J gear. In todays
economy, the "street prices" for C-J, as well as other "high-end" gear, is
substantially less than "retail." C-J gear is typically highly rated by
critics and consumers alike, and the "cost" of designing, marketing,
distributing, and warranting electronics is a LOT more than the cost of the
components. As long as there is a "market" for extravagant audio gear,
there will be manufacturers happy to oblige!

While what you say may well be true, None of that justifies a $20,000 price
tag. Fact is, it doesn't matter how limited the edition is or how 'highly
rated' the brand is, the unit could have been hand-made, one-at-a-time, with
silver wiring throughout by an aerospace electronics company using MIL-Spec
parts and procedures and it still wouldn't justify a $20,000 price tag! In
fact that was the point of my post. There is nothing in the thing. It was
built using a handful of parts (not counting the digital control circuitry,
which is so cheap these days that even $200 receivers use it) and,
essentially, very simple, cook-book tube circuitry.

[Ron[_12_]]

I am a typical consumer of high end audio. I love music and can
appreciate music coming from a great system. My sense of musicality
and need to hear natural sounding music with clarity and detail is
what drives me to high end audio. I am not an engineer and when you
go on about this tube and that circuit I haven=92t got a clue what you
are talking about although I appreciate your ability to understand and
distinguish good design and hardware from bad. I have the ability to
pay for high end equipment but the more I read and inform myself the
less tolerant I am of the prices my local audio store is charging. As
a business man I hate being ripped off and I believe a company must
give value and quality to stay in business for the long term. In
whatever I do I have tried to understand the underlying form of an
object or business to fully appreciate what I am buying and to get a
sense of value. With that said, I am probably your typical high end
audio consumer making my decisions based on listening (which can vary
wildly depending on the room and supporting components), brand, and
the reviews of influential magazines.

I believe the typical high end consumer has a bit of money, not a lot
of time and a passion for the music. What I constantly hear on the
blogs is, as long as the ignorant and uniformed buy high end equipment
the market will exist. Well what is a guy to do? I don=92t have the
time or inclination to get an EE degree so I rely on TRUST....I trust
the manufacturers, marketers, magazines, and sales people. For a
company such as CJ, a long standing and respected brand, to do as you
describe is a gross violation of that trust. Perhaps being ripped
off is part of the high end audio game. I don=92t have a solution to my
problem but thank you for opening my eyes this glaring issue.

[JWV Miller]

On Sep 26, 1:32=A0pm, Ron wrote:

snip

=A0I have the ability to
pay for high end equipment but the more I read and inform myself the
less tolerant I am of the prices my local audio store is charging. =A0As
a business man I hate being ripped off and I believe a company must
give value and quality to stay in business for the long term. =A0In
whatever I do I have tried to understand the underlying form of an
object or business to fully appreciate what I am buying and to get a
sense of value. =A0With that said, I am probably your typical high end
audio consumer making my decisions based on listening (which can vary
wildly depending on the room and supporting components), brand, and
the reviews of influential magazines.

Sadly, uncontrolled listening conditions are just about worthless for
evaluating audio components. Influential magazines don't appear to be
useful either since many evaluations that they do are also
uncontrolled.


I believe the typical high end consumer has a bit of money, not a lot
of time and a passion for the music. =A0What I constantly hear on the
blogs is, as long as the ignorant and uniformed buy high end equipment
the market will exist. =A0Well what is a guy to do? =A0I don=92t have the
time or inclination to get an EE degree so I rely on TRUST....I trust
the manufacturers, marketers, magazines, and sales people.

You don't really need an EE degree but it is hard to find a valid
reason for trust here. From an engineering standpoint, there will be
very little difference in performance between modern amplifiers and CD
and DVD players that are competently designed. Even low-cost units are
likely to be indistinguishable in carefully controlled comparisons.
This also goes for amplifiers in receivers although tuners may have
differing sensitivity and sound quality. I would suspect that most
audiophiles are not overly impressed with modern programming anyway,
especially since it will be somewhat degraded compared to pristine
digital recordings. High-end cables are one of the biggest ripoffs.

=A0For a
company such as CJ, a long standing and respected brand, to do as you
describe is a gross violation of that trust. =A0 Perhaps being ripped
off is part of the high end audio game. =A0I don=92t have a solution to m=
y
problem but thank you for opening my eyes this glaring issue.

You might consider performing careful comparisons of components that
are not as predictable as those components previously mentioned, i.e.
speakers or perhaps turntables. Room conditioning is also a good
investment.

[Sonnova]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:32:42 -0700, Ron wrote
(in article ):

I am a typical consumer of high end audio. I love music and can
appreciate music coming from a great system. My sense of musicality
and need to hear natural sounding music with clarity and detail is
what drives me to high end audio. I am not an engineer and when you
go on about this tube and that circuit I haven=92t got a clue what you
are talking about although I appreciate your ability to understand and
distinguish good design and hardware from bad. I have the ability to
pay for high end equipment but the more I read and inform myself the
less tolerant I am of the prices my local audio store is charging. As
a business man I hate being ripped off and I believe a company must
give value and quality to stay in business for the long term. In
whatever I do I have tried to understand the underlying form of an
object or business to fully appreciate what I am buying and to get a
sense of value. With that said, I am probably your typical high end
audio consumer making my decisions based on listening (which can vary
wildly depending on the room and supporting components), brand, and
the reviews of influential magazines.

I believe the typical high end consumer has a bit of money, not a lot
of time and a passion for the music. What I constantly hear on the
blogs is, as long as the ignorant and uniformed buy high end equipment
the market will exist. Well what is a guy to do? I don=92t have the
time or inclination to get an EE degree so I rely on TRUST....I trust
the manufacturers, marketers, magazines, and sales people. For a
company such as CJ, a long standing and respected brand, to do as you
describe is a gross violation of that trust. Perhaps being ripped
off is part of the high end audio game. I don=92t have a solution to my
problem but thank you for opening my eyes this glaring issue.

You bring up an interesting point. Is being ripped off a part of the audio
game? Unfortunately, in my experience, the answer is that in way too many
cases, the answer is yes. Twenty-thousand dollar preamps that are made with a
couple of hundred dollars worth of parts, $4000/meter interconnect cables,
green pens for edging CDs, cable elevators to keep cables up off the carpet?
Myrtlewood blocks placed on the tops of amps and preamps and CD players?
These are all snake oil sold to the unwary and all of this is seemingly
sanctioned by the High-End press (I'm a reviewer and I refuse, categorically,
to "review" either interconnects or speaker cables).

Fact is that the performance of megabuck preamps and power amps can be
realized at a fraction of the cost most of this stuff sells for. Of course
the audiophile has to give-up a lot of the bling that many manufacturers
impart upon their components; cases machined out of solid billits of
aluminum, cool blue digital displays, and other eye-candy, but if all you
want is the performance, it's available for unbelievably low prices.

[Ron[_12_]]

All I am concerned about is performance for the money. Where does one
start? Obviously I am in the wrong circles when my local audio dealer
tries to sell me a $20K tube pre-amp, the press I am reading raves
about how great it is despite the price, then I find out the item is
made from $400 worth of parts. I am a fairly technical person
(computers) but don't think I have the time or inclination to get down
to DIY kits. Does an audiophile community exist out there that
stresses performance and value over bling and vanity items? Are these
local communities and is this philosophy championed any specific
companies (Outlaw Audio perhaps???). You would think there is a lot
of money to be made in this niche.

It may be too late for me to benefit from this info (Wisdom Audio,
ML32, Krell, etc..) but I have many friends which I have converted to
high end that are currently assembling their systems.

Thanks

[Sonnova]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:49:48 -0700, Ron wrote
(in article ):

All I am concerned about is performance for the money. Where does one
start? Obviously I am in the wrong circles when my local audio dealer
tries to sell me a $20K tube pre-amp, the press I am reading raves
about how great it is despite the price, then I find out the item is
made from $400 worth of parts. I am a fairly technical person
(computers) but don't think I have the time or inclination to get down
to DIY kits. Does an audiophile community exist out there that
stresses performance and value over bling and vanity items? Are these
local communities and is this philosophy championed any specific
companies (Outlaw Audio perhaps???). You would think there is a lot
of money to be made in this niche.

It may be too late for me to benefit from this info (Wisdom Audio,
ML32, Krell, etc..) but I have many friends which I have converted to
high end that are currently assembling their systems.

Thanks

Their are GREAT audio bargains out there and decent performing new components
at reasonable prices, but - and here's the rub - you really have to look for
them.

How about a great performing MOSFET 150+ Watt/channel stereo power amp for
$200?

How about a fine sounding 65 Watt/channel KT88 tube amp that is a dual mono
design, with 5 pairs of line-level inputs, separate power supplies (including
separate power transformers!) and ceramic tube sockets and all hand wired,
gorgeously finished for under $700?

How about a marvelous tube preamp that's circuit-wise a virtual copy of the
famous Marantz 7 for about $250?

How about a quiet, FET preamp (and a copy of an older Nelson Pass design)
with a decent phono stage for $200?

How about a 24-bit/96KHz DAC that perform superbly for @$100?

All of this and more is available, but you won't hear about it in the audio
press. Of course speakers are different. They are largely a matter of taste
(as none are even close to perfect). That's where the bulk of your money
should go. But there is gorgeous stuff out there, mostly made in China or
Taiwan that are real bargains. How long they'll remain that way is unknown,
but right now, is great time to be an audiophile. There's fine equipment
available at great prices for those who look for it.

[Rob Tweed]

On 30 Sep 2009 01:36:46 GMT, Sonnova
wrote:

It may be too late for me to benefit from this info (Wisdom Audio,
ML32, Krell, etc..) but I have many friends which I have converted to
high end that are currently assembling their systems.

Thanks

Their are GREAT audio bargains out there and decent performing new components
at reasonable prices, but - and here's the rub - you really have to look for
them.

How about a great performing MOSFET 150+ Watt/channel stereo power amp for
$200?

How about a fine sounding 65 Watt/channel KT88 tube amp that is a dual mono
design, with 5 pairs of line-level inputs, separate power supplies (including
separate power transformers!) and ceramic tube sockets and all hand wired,
gorgeously finished for under $700?

How about a marvelous tube preamp that's circuit-wise a virtual copy of the
famous Marantz 7 for about $250?

How about a quiet, FET preamp (and a copy of an older Nelson Pass design)
with a decent phono stage for $200?

How about a 24-bit/96KHz DAC that perform superbly for @$100?


.....and of course now we all want to know the names of the gear you're
referring to! :-) I can guess a few (I believe I have at least one
of the items).

It's a shame it's such hard work for the bargain-hunting audiophile to
find such products. In the ideal world that's what the hi-fi press
should be doing. There's a clear gap in the market for someone to
occupy and create a trusted place where such recommendations can be
found.

By the way another example of totally unecessary expenditure must be
the CD transport, some of which sell for ludicrous amounts of money.
I wish more people would realise that:

a) pretty much any modern cheapo CD/DVD/BD player from your local
supermarket, connected by SPDIF to your DAC will work just as well and
sound identical;

b) why use a CD player at all when you can rip the music to lossless
disk images and have the convenience of playing them back via, eg
iTunes into your DAC.

I've yet to see any hi-fi magazine in the UK do anything other than
wax lyrically about these devices instead of berating them as
pointless expensive bling, which I suppose pretty much sums up where
their loyalties and priorities lie.

---

Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR

Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com

[[email protected]]

On Sep 29, 9:36=A0pm, Sonnova wrote:

[ excess quotation snipped -- dsr ]

All of this and more is available, but you won't hear about it in the aud=
io
press. Of course speakers are different. They are largely a matter of tas=
te
(as none are even close to perfect). That's where the bulk of your money
should go. But there is gorgeous stuff out there, mostly made in China or
Taiwan that are real bargains. How long they'll remain that way is unknow=
n,
but right now, is great time to be an audiophile. =A0There's fine equipme=
nt
available at great prices for those who look for it.

And for a fraction of even Chinese prices, one has the ability to DIY
any number of fine designs using high-quality parts and transformers
from any of several sources including the US and Europe. Many are
simple cook-book recipes requiring little other than decent soldering
skills. HOWEVER, and it is a big one, there may be considerable time
involved depending on the level of finish and elegance desired.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Roger Kulp]

On Sep 29, 7:36=A0pm, Sonnova wrote:

How about a fine sounding 65 Watt/channel KT88 tube amp that is a dual mo=
no
design, with 5 pairs of line-level inputs, separate power supplies (inclu=
ding
separate =A0power transformers!) and ceramic tube sockets and all hand wi=
red,
gorgeously finished for under $700?

How about a marvelous tube preamp that's circuit-wise a virtual copy of t=
he
famous Marantz 7 for about $250?

What might these be ?

Roger

[Harry Lavo]

"Ron" wrote in message
...
All I am concerned about is performance for the money. Where does one
start? Obviously I am in the wrong circles when my local audio dealer
tries to sell me a $20K tube pre-amp, the press I am reading raves
about how great it is despite the price, then I find out the item is
made from $400 worth of parts. I am a fairly technical person
(computers) but don't think I have the time or inclination to get down
to DIY kits. Does an audiophile community exist out there that
stresses performance and value over bling and vanity items? Are these
local communities and is this philosophy championed any specific
companies (Outlaw Audio perhaps???). You would think there is a lot
of money to be made in this niche.

It may be too late for me to benefit from this info (Wisdom Audio,
ML32, Krell, etc..) but I have many friends which I have converted to
high end that are currently assembling their systems.

Thanks

Ron, I'd be just a bit cautious. While the overall level of mid-level and
upper mass-level components has improved to a level inconceivable 30 years
ago, they often sound a bit "grey" and "mechanical". Real high-end
components often do sound just a bit better (livlier, more
transparent)....enough to make the difference between "fine sound" and "you
are there". But prices have gotten largely out of whack.

My first choice to tell your friends is "used quality", particularly with
regard to preamps and tuners. With the market having swung to home theatre,
there are dozens of excellent ARC, ML, Krell, C-J etc. preamps, Onkyo and
Carver tuners, etc. on the market at affordable prices. Team these with,
let us say, Outlaw Monoblock amplifiers (200 true wpc) and you have all the
electronics you need short of a CD player. There are several good CD
players (Arcam, Cambridge, NAD) and SACD players (SONY), even blu-ray
all-in-one-combos (OPPO) that can form satisfying front ends. Many good
turntables, arms, and cartridge combos available from Project, Music Hall,
and even Thorens for less than $1000, if vinyl is desired. For speakers, I
find used Thiels hard to beat. They are unfailingly musical, and for less
than $1200 a pair, used 3.5's and 2 2's offer wonderful sound. There are
also fine NHT's, Snells, and PSB's out there at quite reasonable prices.

If vintage is appealing, don't overlook older Dual Turntables (the 700
series in particular) which are available reasonably cheap and can be
reconditioned if need be...and when in top shape rival the new stuff up to
the $4000 level. In speakers, stacked Large Advents can hold their own
against most modern speakers....at $150 each used, four will set you back
only $600.

I'd say redirect your friends interest in this direction, and at least some
of them will thank you later. Others may well decided to pay current prices
and get good sound.....just at a much higher price.