"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

wrote in message
link.net...


You don't seem to have any clear notion of what you r
taste is.

To sound like a live presentation.

Do all live presentations sound the same?


True, I have heard your church recordings.

Clyde Slick said:

Do all live presentations sound the same?

True, I have heard your church recordings.

Kroo**** models his recordings on Inquisition "hearings".

Would I sound a lot like Howard if I said I had a bunch of gear in for
review?

Boon

After listening to many, many SETs, I can honestly say that C-J sounds
like solid state to me now.

And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of Pegasus
Audio, though. But Mikey says I don't have to listen to it because I
should know what distortion sounds like.

Nice to see you, though, Sander!

Boon

None of that made any sense, you ****in' spaz.

Boon

In , Arny Krueger wrote :

wrote in message
oups.com


That's all crap. How about Yamamoto Sound Craft, or
Shindo, or deHavilland, or Komura, or Melody, or
Audiopax? Never heard of them? Big surprise.

Some people design amplifiers, others design names for
amplifiers.

Guess which ones impress Marc the most?


LOL !

Arthur "Sackman" Tsechmeister wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick wrote :


Gee, why would anyone want to mock your family?


That's a real good question.


Then why do you mock mine?
"At least" I only mock you.

You are a liar Tsechmeister-Sackman (Sackman-Tsechmeister ?). You're always
bragging that Frenchs are disgusting, that they stink, that they are
cowards, that you despise them... All my family is French.

I have just had a lot of fun when I have understood that your Grandmother
have prefered to flee Soviet-Union rather than to fight the Soviet. ;-)
I have had also a lot of fun when I understood that were speaking tons about
France and that you have never leaved CDG terminal.

Moreover you have *insulted* my mother long, time ago jumping in a thread in
which you weren't concerned. This was even before our first
Do you want that Google lies to you, hypocrit ******* ?

May I remember you that I have invited for *free* in France to repeat this
insult ?

( the recent exchange regarding your wife's visit, I only
offered her free American water, not mocked her!)
No matter, I really don't care about the recent
posts, I am only surprised at your one-way chagrin.

No matter, Ireally don't care about your point of you and sincerely I am not
really surprised about more lies from you...
But what's new around here ?

--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

Marc Philips, wrote :

None of that made any sense, you ****in' spaz.

;-)

--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

Arthur "Sackman" Tsechmeister wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick wrote :


Gee, why would anyone want to mock your family?


That's a real good question.


Then why do you mock mine?
"At least" I only mock you.

You are a liar Tsechmeister-Sackman (Sackman-Tsechmeister ?). You're always
bragging that Frenchs are disgusting, that they stink, that they are
cowards, that you despise them... All my family is French.

I have just had a lot of fun when I have understood that your Grandmother
have prefered to flee Soviet-Union rather than to fight the Soviet. ;-)
I have had also a lot of fun when I understood that were speaking tons about
France and that you have never leaved CDG terminal.

Moreover you have *insulted* my mother long, time ago jumping in a thread in
which you weren't concerned. This was *even* before our first "political"
exchange.
Do you really want that I make Google lies to you, hypocrit ******* ?
May I remember you that I have invited you for *free* in France to repeat
this insult ?

( the recent exchange regarding your wife's visit, I only
offered her free American water, not mocked her!)
No matter, I really don't care about the recent
posts, I am only surprised at your one-way chagrin.

No matter, I really don't care about your point of view and sincerely I am
not really surprised about more lies from you...
But what's new around here ?

--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

In .com,
wrote :


And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of Pegasus
Audio, though.

LOL, predictable retractation from our self-proclamed "high-end connoiseur"
since he has in front of him a guy who knows a lot more than him on the
subject.

Conclusion ?
Audio added value of our audio-braggart's intervention is reduced to zero
But what's new around here ?


--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

wrote in message
oups.com

None of that made any sense, you ****in' spaz.

Well Marc, that was because it was way over your pointed
little head. Too bad you made the mistake of coming back to
RAO before you bought, stole, or were given your first
clue.

In , Arny Krueger wrote :

wrote in message
oups.com

None of that made any sense, you ****in' spaz.

Well Marc, that was because it was way over your pointed
little head. Too bad you made the mistake of coming back to
RAO before you bought, stole, or were given your first
clue.

Is our fatty justicer still haunting your street ? ;-)

--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
In , Arny Krueger wrote :

wrote in message
oups.com


That's all crap. How about Yamamoto Sound Craft, or
Shindo, or deHavilland, or Komura, or Melody, or
Audiopax? Never heard of them? Big surprise.

Some people design amplifiers, others design names for
amplifiers.

Guess which ones impress Marc the most?


LOL !

ARny was part of a two person design team at Chrysler.
He designed the ashtrays, and the other person designed
names for them. Arny is just envious because the name
designer was paid $2 more per hour.

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Arthur "Sackman" Tsechmeister wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick wrote :


Gee, why would anyone want to mock your family?


That's a real good question.


Then why do you mock mine?
"At least" I only mock you.

You are a liar Tsechmeister-Sackman (Sackman-Tsechmeister ?). You're
always
bragging that Frenchs are disgusting, that they stink, that they are
cowards, that you despise them... All my family is French.


Nice job! Turning my generalized trashing of the French into
a personal attack against your wife.


I have just had a lot of fun when I have understood that your Grandmother
have prefered to flee Soviet-Union rather than to fight the Soviet. ;-)
I have had also a lot of fun when I understood that were speaking tons
about
France and that you have never leaved CDG terminal.


America is full of descendents who fled horrific terrors of
European and other countries.


Moreover you have *insulted* my mother long, time ago jumping in a thread
in
which you weren't concerned. This was even before our first
Do you want that Google lies to you, hypocrit ******* ?


By your logic I am even more entitled to personally
attack your family as retaliation for your much more
recent attacks, But I choose not to.


May I remember you that I have invited for *free* in France to repeat this
insult ?


Does that include free water?

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:48:56 +0100, Lionel
wrote:

In , Arny Krueger wrote :

wrote in message
oups.com

None of that made any sense, you ****in' spaz.

Well Marc, that was because it was way over your pointed
little head. Too bad you made the mistake of coming back to
RAO before you bought, stole, or were given your first
clue.

Is our fatty justicer still haunting your street ? ;-)

You're visiting Michigan?

Cool.

Son knock any neighbor girls up yet?

"Lionel" wrote in message

In , Arny Krueger
wrote :

wrote in message
oups.com

None of that made any sense, you ****in' spaz.

Well Marc, that was because it was way over your pointed
little head. Too bad you made the mistake of coming back
to RAO before you bought, stole, or were given your
first clue.

Is our fatty justicer still haunting your street ? ;-)

Let's put it this way. If Marc ever does so (there's no
evidence he ever has), it will be pretty obvious from what
he says.

Arthur "Sackman" Tsechmeister wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Arthur "Sackman" Tsechmeister wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick wrote :


Gee, why would anyone want to mock your family?


That's a real good question.


Then why do you mock mine?
"At least" I only mock you.

You are a liar Tsechmeister-Sackman (Sackman-Tsechmeister ?). You're
always
bragging that Frenchs are disgusting, that they stink, that they are
cowards, that you despise them... All my family is French.


Nice job! Turning my generalized trashing of the French into
a personal attack against your wife.


Oh no it's not a nice job. Just the description of the real word and living
persons that your moronic generalizations are englobing.
BTW I didn't speak specially about my wife but about my family in general.
You should learn to read. But since my wife is also French so...


I have just had a lot of fun when I have understood that your Grandmother
have prefered to flee Soviet-Union rather than to fight the Soviet. ;-)
I have had also a lot of fun when I understood that were speaking tons
about
France and that you have never leaved CDG terminal.


America is full of descendents who fled horrific terrors of
European and other countries.


Unfortunatly the world is full of morons like you.



Moreover you have *insulted* my mother long, time ago jumping in a thread
in
which you weren't concerned. This was even before our first
Do you want that Google lies to you, hypocrit ******* ?


By your logic I am even more entitled to personally
attack your family as retaliation for your much more
recent attacks, But I choose not to.


You are an hypocrit *liar*. I *repeat* that you have *insulted* my mother
long time before I engage with you my first debate.


May I remember you that I have invited for *free* in France to repeat
this insult ?


Does that include free water?

No, I just want to make a "french barbecue" of you but since I am
magnanimous I will let you chose the model of the car. :-D


--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

In , dave weil wrote :

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:48:56 +0100, Lionel
wrote:

In , Arny Krueger wrote :

wrote in message
oups.com

None of that made any sense, you ****in' spaz.

Well Marc, that was because it was way over your pointed
little head. Too bad you made the mistake of coming back to
RAO before you bought, stole, or were given your first
clue.

Is our fatty justicer still haunting your street ? ;-)

You're visiting Michigan?


Aaaah ! This one is very good. You shouldn't force your talent for me Dave.


Cool.

After alll if it can rescue your keyboard... ;-)

Son knock any neighbor girls up yet?


I don't understand this one.

--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

said:


After listening to many, many SETs, I can honestly say that C-J sounds
like solid state to me now.


Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, you will note.
However, they can benefit from some tweaks here and there.


And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of Pegasus
Audio, though. But Mikey says I don't have to listen to it because I
should know what distortion sounds like.


Pegasus Audio is the fancy name that my humble products bear.
We might have a PC-ABX shootout in the near future between one of my
amps and (hopefully) Mike's Acoustat.
The output stage uses similar devices, just my driver circuit is
different (with E288CC tubes), and it is biased in class A when an 8
ohms load is used.


Nice to see you, though, Sander!


Likewise, and stay a little longer this time!

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

Lionel said:

And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of Pegasus
Audio, though.

LOL, predictable retractation from our self-proclamed "high-end connoiseur"
since he has in front of him a guy who knows a lot more than him on the
subject.


I wouldn't dare to compare my listening experience with Marc's, at
least not in recent times.
I left (high end) consumer audio as a profession in 1998, and there is
a lot of new brands and types released since then.

Also, I'm not familiar with the level of technical knowledge that Marc
has.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

"Arny Krueger" said:

You don't seem to have any clear notion of what you r
taste is.

To sound like a live presentation.

Do all live presentations sound the same?


Since the differences will be gross, an ABX test won't be necessary,
I'd guess? ;-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

You don't seem to have any clear notion of what you r
taste is.

To sound like a live presentation.

Do all live presentations sound the same?


Since the differences will be gross, an ABX test won't be
necessary, I'd guess? ;-)

Dooh - as long as you are comparing different live
presentations, or comparing live presentations to the
playback of reqcordings.

In , Sander deWaal wrote :

Lionel said:

And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of Pegasus
Audio, though.

LOL, predictable retractation from our self-proclamed "high-end
connoiseur" since he has in front of him a guy who knows a lot more than
him on the subject.


I wouldn't dare to compare my listening experience with Marc's, at
least not in recent times.

Anyway I will try to discourage you to do that. IMHO it's wasting time to
engage "dick contests" like the one that this idiot tried to engage with
McKelvy.

I left (high end) consumer audio as a profession in 1998, and there is
a lot of new brands and types released since then.

There're 1000s of brands and local micro-manufacturers. Only moronic
braggarts like Marc Phillips can arrive in a discussion saying "that's all
crap".

Also, I'm not familiar with the level of technical knowledge that Marc
has.

How to know it ? This braggart mainly spent his RAO time in discussions
about pedophilia. :-(
Note that considering the level of his last intervention it's perhaps better
for him. :-)

--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

In article ,
Lionel wrote:

Son knock any neighbor girls up yet?


I don't understand this one.

Has your son up-knocked yet any neighbor girls?

No, that reads funny.

Knocked yet your son any neighbor girls up?

This will help:

http://www.thebukowskiagency.com/KnockedUp.htm

The "Charles Bukowski Agency" would be funnier.

Stephen

In , MINe 109 wrote :

In article ,
Lionel wrote:

Son knock any neighbor girls up yet?


I don't understand this one.

Has your son up-knocked yet any neighbor girls?

No, that reads funny.

Thank you Stephen. I don't need any explanation about this simple sentence.
I understood what Dave wrote that's not really a problem for me.
What I don't understand is why Weil seems to be *so* interested in my
children sexual activity. Any explanation ?


Knocked yet your son any neighbor girls up?

This will help:

http://www.thebukowskiagency.com/KnockedUp.htm

The "Charles Bukowski Agency" would be funnier.

I like Bukowski. Thank you for the link.


--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:55:28 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


In , MINe 109 wrote :

In article ,
Lionel wrote:

Son knock any neighbor girls up yet?


I don't understand this one.

Has your son up-knocked yet any neighbor girls?

No, that reads funny.

Thank you Stephen. I don't need any explanation about this simple sentence.
I understood what Dave wrote that's not really a problem for me.

So, you were lying yet again.

Cool.

Lionel "Gibberella" La Salope said:

our fatty justicer

Good grief, Slut. What the heck are you using to render your froggy thoughts
into English?



..
..

In , dave weil wrote :

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:55:28 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


In , MINe 109 wrote
:

In article ,
Lionel wrote:

Son knock any neighbor girls up yet?


I don't understand this one.

Has your son up-knocked yet any neighbor girls?

No, that reads funny.

Thank you Stephen. I don't need any explanation about this simple
sentence. I understood what Dave wrote that's not really a problem for me.

So, you were lying yet again.

Not at all.
I understood the 2 sentences separatly but I cannot make any relation
between them and that let me perplexed.
The first of them could be interpreted according to what I wrote before but
what about the second ????

IMO it demonstrates me that one more time I have granted to much importance
to your delirium. My blind generosity will lose me.


Cool.

I don't know.
But you will note that it doesn't explain your sudden interest for my
chidren sexual life. Are you a pervert ? A pedophile ?



--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

George "Minus" Middius wrote :



Lionel "Gibberella" La Salope said:

our fatty justicer

Good grief, Slut.


No grief, Ô AsshOle, just nasty amusement. ;-)


What the heck are you using to render your froggy
thoughts into English?

It's my secret... And a secret is like a good recipe.



--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Sander deWaal wrote :
:
: Lionel said:
:
: And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of Pegasus
: Audio, though.
:
: LOL, predictable retractation from our self-proclamed "high-end
: connoiseur" since he has in front of him a guy who knows a lot more than
: him on the subject.
:
:
: I wouldn't dare to compare my listening experience with Marc's, at
: least not in recent times.
:
: Anyway I will try to discourage you to do that. IMHO it's wasting time to
: engage "dick contests" like the one that this idiot tried to engage with
: McKelvy.
:
: I left (high end) consumer audio as a profession in 1998, and there is
: a lot of new brands and types released since then.
:
: There're 1000s of brands and local micro-manufacturers. Only moronic
: braggarts like Marc Phillips can arrive in a discussion saying "that's all
: crap".
:
: Also, I'm not familiar with the level of technical knowledge that Marc
: has.
:
: How to know it ? This braggart mainly spent his RAO time in discussions
: about pedophilia. :-(
: Note that considering the level of his last intervention it's perhaps better
: for him. :-)
:
: --
: "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
: But what's new around here?"
:
: Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15


....................................
He Lionel,

your like/dislike balance is all in one position,
your dishes no longer spicey
but
sour 'nd bitter

what's cooking ?

Rudy

Another tidal wave of Sluttish gibbering swamps RAO.

What the heck are you using to render your froggy
thoughts into English?

It's my secret... And a secret is like a good recipe.

Your chef appears to be insane.



..
..

In , Ruud Broens wrote :


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Sander deWaal wrote :
:
: Lionel said:
:
: And a Jadis isn't crap. But it is overpriced. Never heard of
: Pegasus Audio, though.
:
: LOL, predictable retractation from our self-proclamed "high-end
: connoiseur" since he has in front of him a guy who knows a lot more
: than him on the subject.
:
:
: I wouldn't dare to compare my listening experience with Marc's, at
: least not in recent times.
:
: Anyway I will try to discourage you to do that. IMHO it's wasting time
: to engage "dick contests" like the one that this idiot tried to engage
: with McKelvy.
:
: I left (high end) consumer audio as a profession in 1998, and there is
: a lot of new brands and types released since then.
:
: There're 1000s of brands and local micro-manufacturers. Only moronic
: braggarts like Marc Phillips can arrive in a discussion saying "that's
: all crap".
:
: Also, I'm not familiar with the level of technical knowledge that Marc
: has.
:
: How to know it ? This braggart mainly spent his RAO time in discussions
: about pedophilia. :-(
: Note that considering the level of his last intervention it's perhaps
: better for him. :-)
:
: --
: "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
: But what's new around here?"
:
: Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15


...................................
He Lionel,

your like/dislike balance is all in one position,
your dishes no longer spicey
but
sour 'nd bitter

what's cooking ?

Rudy

Good evening Rudy,

Since I'm sure that you are an intelligent and attentive reader I'm
convinced that you have noted that I wasn't speaking about
"like/dislike balance" but just about some abrupt and peremptory judgments
about people's tastes.
Considering that my own tastes are in constant change (evolution ?) I do my
best to stay as far as possible from the "that's all crap".

....But my soup is still correctly salt, at least to my taste. ;-)
What else ?


--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
: "Ruud Broens" wrote in message
:
: "Arny Krueger" wrote in message
: ...
: "Ruud Broens" wrote in message
:
:
: THD, for instance, is calculated with a summing of the
: squared levels of
: the various harmonic distortions - not at all a correct
: weighing of the actual perception of 'aggravation' by
: these distortion components - as is known
: for decades
:
: Straw man argument. THD is not the only possible or even
: commonly used means for measure or charaterize nonlinear
: distortion.
:
: No, it's a typical example of how an engineering /
: mathematical definition does not jibe with perception and
: is thus a poor indicator of the perceived qualities - so
: what's the point of using it ?
:
: Good question Rudy - now find a serious worker who takes
: THD measurements very seriously.

ehhmm, Arny, you didn't seem to get that the question
"what's the point of using it ?"
applies to ALL measurements when related to the
question of whether a difference can or can not be heard.
it's that pesky principle of operationism, you see,
circular reasoning doesn't count in science :-)

[underlying theory *has* to draw from knowledge from
both natural and social sciences, for starters]
:
: I agree in principle that if the goal of the reproduction
: chain is an as accurate as possible rendition of the
: original recorded
: music (we're still assuming music equals recorded
: acoustical instruments), each component should be
: completely devoid
: of adding/subtracting anything to the signal.
:
: However, the way it is established to be the case leaves
: some to be desired.
:
: I'd be more likely to agree with that statement if I saw a
: relevant description of how serious workers establish
: whether or not components are adding or subtracting from
: signals in detrimental ways.

that's a rather peculiar phrasing
-does not decode -- i guess my deKoder needs an update

:
: All I see Rudy is a guy who raises the well-known THD straw
: man up and wastes all of our time by doing a mediocre job of
: knocking it down.
:
that's a rather peculiar phrasing
-does not decode -- i guess my deKoder needs an update
again,

Rudy

George "Minus" Middius wrote :




Another tidal wave of Sluttish gibbering swamps RAO.

What the heck are you using to render your froggy
thoughts into English?

It's my secret... And a secret is like a good recipe.

Your chef appears to be insane.

Indispensable prerequest to be a great artist... ;-)
Why are you cultivate such moronic petit bourgeois conformism, George ?

Despite all your efforts you're sticking to the sordid banality, atavism ?



--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

"Ruud Broens" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Ruud Broens" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Ruud Broens" wrote in message


THD, for instance, is calculated with a summing of the
squared levels of
the various harmonic distortions - not at all a
correct weighing of the actual perception of
'aggravation' by these distortion components - as is
known
for decades

Straw man argument. THD is not the only possible or
even commonly used means for measure or charaterize
nonlinear distortion.

No, it's a typical example of how an engineering /
mathematical definition does not jibe with perception
and is thus a poor indicator of the perceived qualities
- so what's the point of using it ?

Good question Rudy - now find a serious worker who takes
THD measurements very seriously.

ehhmm, Arny, you didn't seem to get that the question
"what's the point of using it ?"
applies to ALL measurements when related to the
question of whether a difference can or can not be heard.

I got it, and I recognized it as a ridiculous troll.

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: In , Ruud Broens wrote :
: : How to know it ? This braggart mainly spent his RAO time in discussions
: : about pedophilia. :-(
: : Note that considering the level of his last intervention it's perhaps
: : better for him. :-)
: :
: : --
: : "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
: : But what's new around here?"
: :
: : Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15
:
:
: ...................................
: He Lionel,
:
: your like/dislike balance is all in one position,
: your dishes no longer spicey
: but
: sour 'nd bitter
:
: what's cooking ?
:
: Rudy
:
: Good evening Rudy,
:
: Since I'm sure that you are an intelligent and attentive reader I'm
: convinced that you have noted that I wasn't speaking about
: "like/dislike balance" but just about some abrupt and peremptory judgments
: about people's tastes.
: Considering that my own tastes are in constant change (evolution ?) I do my
: best to stay as far as possible from the "that's all crap".
:
: ...But my soup is still correctly salt, at least to my taste. ;-)
: What else ?
:
I assume you've gathered it was a comment on 'le ton' in many
of your recent postings on RAO ;-)

so, how about some audio content, sir ?
(think Wargames : "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
How about a nice game of chess?")

the question i recently put to Arny, how would you go about
comparing different drivers for some loudspeaker design
(assuming a multi-driver setup) ? say, a tweeter:
you'll have different frequency range, different frequency response,
different sensitivity , different dispersion, different power handling
capacity, different impedance, etc., etc.
now, say you'd have a perfect 10 Hz - 6 kHz 'lower part' of the design
ready, how to compare these different tweeters ?

for starters, you'll need different xo's for the drivers
so you're not _really_ comparing apples with apples
as some tweeters will 'use' more of the range produced
by the lower part
than others :-)

any practical ideas ?
cheers,
Rudy

"Arny Krueger" said:

I got it, and I recognized it as a ridiculous troll.


Amplifiers with fixed bias always have a point where the distortion
rises manyfold.

Some of us are like that.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

"Ruud Broens" wrote in message


the question i recently put to Arny, how would you go
about
comparing different drivers for some loudspeaker design
(assuming a multi-driver setup) ? say, a tweeter:
you'll have different frequency range, different
frequency response, different sensitivity , different
dispersion, different power handling capacity, different
impedance, etc., etc.
now, say you'd have a perfect 10 Hz - 6 kHz 'lower part'
of the design ready, how to compare these different
tweeters ?

The way its commonly done is to build a number of complete
systems differing as little as possible given that each
represents the best you can do, including the various
alternatives.

for starters, you'll need different xo's for the drivers
so you're not _really_ comparing apples with apples
as some tweeters will 'use' more of the range produced
by the lower part than others :-)

This really isn't a stumbling block at all. The end goal is
to produce the system that best conforms to your
expectations. If you go into production with any of the
systems, of course your production model would include the
necessary variations in crossovers, etc.

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
said:

To be brutally honest, I have the same feeling when people are trying
to comvince me to get 5.1 or even 7.1 systems in my house, just for
listening to music (I don't do movies).

As Floyd Toole said in the interview I posted the link to, it's hard to
listen to only 2 channels once you've heard 5.1 or 7.1 sound for music. I
have a concert video of Peter Gabriel and another of Bruce Springsteen
both
of which are in 5.1 stereo. Both of which sound better because of it.
Swich to regular stereo and it just seem to collapse. I'd think you'd
want
to have a DVD player and 5.1 sound just for the concerts that are
available,
if not for movies. IMO there's no doubt that HT applications are going to
be a boon to music only playback becuase they will allow more people to
enjoy music in a much more realistic way.


That's entirely possible, but the way it looks to me now, is that
multi-channel is foisted upon costumers that either don't feel the
need for it, or simply can't enjoy the ebnefits of it, considering
what is sold under the "surround" moniker in stores like Circuit City
or Best Buy.

They're trying to make money on selling what's popular, not neccessarily
what's good.
I have yet to hear any speakers at any of those places that I would actually
want to own.
That being said, even a low priced surround speaker set up tends to sound
more live than an eaully priced 2 channel set up, especially when using some
of the synthesized surround modes on medicore recordings.


Mstly, the 5 or 7 speakers are of mediocre quality at best, and the
money spent on them would be spent more wisely on just *two* good
speakers.

Just my 0.02 volts, of course.

They don't have to be of mediocre quality and the money required to get
really good speakers for the extra channels can come from all the money
people can save if they stop buying desinger cable and overpriced amps,
etc., etc..


You're assuming of course that most customers do have some idea about
how to carefully select good equipment, how to place it correctly and
have at least a clue about how instruments sound in reality.

Most don't, is my experience.

I thought it was all about making it sound teh way the listener wanted it,
accuracy has nothing to do with high end. :-)


As for multi-channel-recordings: it is hard enough as it is to get a
2-channel recording right, let alone 5 or 7 channels.

What most people don't seem to realize is that even stereo recordings
of classical music are heavily processed, and the result is an
artificial "stereo" (or 5, or 7 channel) soundfield that is composed
entirely behind a computer.
Almost no one is using a simple XY-microphone recording setup, almost
ach and every instrument has its own microphone , and an end mix is
made from 48, 96 or whatever number of channels.
The end result is not stereo or ambient, it is an artificial sound
field composed of all those channels panned in the 2 or 4 quadrants
somewhere.

People hear sound from all those places. I don't know how many channels
we'll end up with. I only know that more of them done right sounds more
lifelike to me. It seems far eaiser to set up multiple speakers to get the
feeling of ambience, than setting up 2 speakers. Generally 2 channel sound
seems to spread out in front of the listener, but live music engulfs you and
you feel as much as hear sound from all around the venue.


As long as recording engineers don't get the simplest things right,
stereo is just enough for me.

Most of them have never been trained on how the stuff they use is supposed
to work and have lost much of their hearing from very lod playback of
nearfield monitors. My friend who owned a studio said that studios replace
the drivers in the monitors after a certain number of hours because of how
loud they play them, they are wearing them out.

Another factor is that I have a collection of music that varies from
the '50s to roughly the '90s, all in stereo, and I don't feel the
slightest need to add more channels in order to create an artificial
soundfield that has nothing to do with high fidelity.

Well of course it has to do with high fidelity, it's just a new kind. Way
better than quad, which for a while, everybody seemed to want. With the
advent of computers and DSP, they can do things with recordings that not
only remove a lot of noise from the old master tapes, but that can predict
and recreate what the soundfield of a given hall would be.
This is not going away, it's definitely here to stay, and while I agree that
most music recorded in 2 channel stereo tends to sound best played back that
way, I think that since they're already using multiple microphones anyway,
that it won't be long til everything gets recorded for multichannel
playback.

Also, the need for more channels and more speakers is generating
(hopefully)
more research into speaker design and that's got to be good. I look
forward
to a day when speakers can be as accurate as the electronics, either
through
new materials, or affordable DSP equalization of the sound in any given
room. The NHT system reviewed recently by SP
http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105nht/ are a prime example of
what is coming and how good it's going to be. At $6000.00 retail for the
system, they may be out of reach for a lot of people, but they are, I'm
confident, just the beginning of a whole new and much better way to listen
to music at home. Of course Dynaudio makes a speaker system that measures
as flat as the NHT but it's around $80,000.00, so I think the NHT approach
will likely get bigger sales and deservedly so.


Research in speakers is indeed advancing, which is of course a good
thing.

Every now and then, I walk into the demo room of one of my former
employers/vlients, and listen to the progress in playback.
So far, I haven't felt the need to replace my trustly old Maggies with
something "better" , regardless the price point.
The only speaker that tempted me to trhow my Maggies out, was Tony's
"Soup" speaker.

If they sound as good as they look and live up to the potential of the
drivers, they should sound very good indeed.

Once I have the money to spend, I'll buy back the drivers again and
start building.

In stereo, of course.

Meanwhile, a sub is in the works, with the Adire 12D8, powered by a
Hypex UCD-400 module.

I noteice the price of the Siva 12" drivershas gone up in price. I got mine
a year ago for $125.00 and now they're asking $179.00 for them. Hopefully,
dealers will offer some discounts. Are you going to use a normal cabinet or
go the Sonotube route? I recomend the tubes, lighter weight with no worries
about cabinet resonances, plus a smaller footprint, lower materials cost,
and ease of construction. There are plenty of resources and how to
resources on the web for building then. The only reason I have mine in a
cabinet is beause I didn't find out about the tubes until well after I had
the cabinet built and in use with a different driver.

You might even want to try one of the new Behringer A500's in bridged mode.
Higher power (500 watts @ 8ohms) and lower cost. $179.00 USD (213 Euros)
vs. $219.00 USD for 400 watts @ 4ohms. Compa
http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/UcDAmps.htm for the UcD and:
http://www.behringer.com/A500/index.cfm?lang=ENG
230 wpc@4 ohms stereo
160 wpc @8 ohms stereo
mono bridged 500 watts @ 8ohms
Distortion 0.01%
Frequency range: 10 Hz-25 KHz +0/-1dB
Crosstalk: typically 85 dB @1 kHz
Noise: -100dB, 20 Hz-20kHz, unweighted
Amplification: 25X (28dB)
Input sensitivity VRMS @4 ohms: 1.3V (+4.5 dBu) cinch connectors: 320mV
(_10 dBV)

Convection cooled
Push-pull class AB
230V~, 50Hz Europe/U.K./ Australia
Power consumption: max. 3.6A 230V/6.5A 120V
Breaker: 100-120V~: 50-60 Hz
200-240V~:T 5 A H 250V
Standard IEC receptacle for the mains connector
18.5 Lb. 8.4 Kg

It's worth a look, even if you can't exactly build it into the woofer the
way you can the Hypex. :-)

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
ink.net...

"Ruud Broens" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
ink.net...
:
: "Clyde Slick" wrote in message
: ...
: It most certainly is an assumption.
: I heard differences you are neither able to hear nor to measure.
: Buy a hearing aid, or come up with some better ways to measure.
:
: If they can't be measured they can't be heard either.
:
:
Maybe so.

Until someone identifies some new thing there is nothing known that
people can hear that can't be measured. Things that can't be heard but
are present in an audio signal can also be measured. The measuring
equipment is far more sensitive than the ear.


But there are not measures for all of the parameters, such as imaging
information in the signal.

Imaging comes from the recording and is reproduced by the speakers.
Unless you have a reaaly ****ty amp then it has nothing to do with imaging
or the quality or qauntity of it.