[Patrick Turner]

Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the results?

Patrick Turner.

[Peter Wieck]

On Apr 14, 12:38 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the results?

Patrick Turner.

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
to do quite well.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Patrick Turner]

Peter Wieck wrote:

On Apr 14, 12:38 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the results?

Patrick Turner.

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
to do quite well.



I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.


Patrick Turner.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 03:26:24 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.

It's fersure non-trivial, and large and important working
bits may be beyond your control in a "kit". One particularly
tough nut to crack is diaphragm-to-stator spacings; tough
to maintain to any workable tolerance, even on a good day.

Sensitivity varies with the second power of distance and
arcing varies with the weather.

Flatness is something that architects draw but that carpenters
measure like we measure harmonic distortion. There ain't no
such thing as flat; like that.

Without a very difficult-to-achieve stator flatness, nothing
can work right. Diaphragms are easily tensioned to flat in these
sizes; stators must be *made* flat in two dimensions. Easy to say...

If you have provision for "warping" the stators to any extent
some tests with chalking and a glass plate might give some
useful input. If not, might still point in a useful direction.

Are these perforated sheet stators, stretched wire, or something
else?

All the best fortune, and thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

"Beauty will save the world."
- Feodor Dostoevsky

"Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Truth is not
beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music."
- Frank Zappa

[Patrick Turner]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 03:26:24 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.

It's fersure non-trivial, and large and important working
bits may be beyond your control in a "kit". One particularly
tough nut to crack is diaphragm-to-stator spacings; tough
to maintain to any workable tolerance, even on a good day.

The kit maker's background is from electro-mechanical trades,
not electronic, and I have a 20dB better understanding of the operatiion
principles than he does,
especially after studying the experts of the past such as what Mr
Baxandal wrote about
early Quad ESL5757.

The ERAudio website has no real clear meaningful information about the
sensitivity, no response measurements, and no impedance measurements.

The electronic info provided in the instructions is inadequate.

There is room for a lot of improvement. The basic panel design is valid,
but there are HV discharge noises that need to be addrressed.
Just why the panels make crakles, whispers and and popping noise
when one turns them OFF is a mystery, perhaps there is no discharge R
across the EHT supply to make sure discharge is fast.
I may have to apply another second THIN coating of the conductive
coating to
the membrane to ensure the charge in the membrane is more even and
unlikely
to gather unevenly when the charge is drained on turn off; I am not
exactly
sure what is causing the disconcerting phenomena.

The diaphragm spacings and physical construction details are very
easy to get right; very basic carpenter/joiner skill levels are needed.

Stretching and doping the membrane takes alittle more patience,
but the present membrane is the 4th I have done so far to get
a working panel, for a variety of reasons.
The first one tore into the panel area as I tightened it,
the second stuck to to bench when I used recommended super glue.
There was a tiny impossible to see pinhole in the membrane.
and sure enough the liquid super glue soaked through the hole.
The 3rd was glued using polyurethane, which gave a better neater result
than super glue.
This membrane needed to be removed to allow the Isonel 642 to be
applied to the stator plates facing the membrane, and for a thinner
application of
conductive coating to be applied.
The 4th glued more easliy than the others and it seems this is easy for
me now to repeat
with a good match between consecutive panels, so that SPLs from each
channel should be identical.
But perhaps there is leakage of EHT is through the 3.5uM membrane then
throgh
the polyurethane glue to the nearby stator. I could not measure any V
drop
to indicate this though using a high voltage probe of high resistance.


Sensitivity varies with the second power of distance and
arcing varies with the weather.

We have warm dry weather here now. Beautiful conditions for ESL!

Flatness is something that architects draw but that carpenters
measure like we measure harmonic distortion. There ain't no
such thing as flat; like that.

Flat means within +/-2dB in a room, measured with pink noise,
after averaging 4 mic positions within 3M to 4M from the speaker
at different heights but all within 5 degrees of the
speaker centre axis line, so what you end up with is what the response
is at the listening
chair. Plots measure elsewhere are all irrelevant to me.
My own dynamics easily achieve this, and sound just wonderful,
and so do my customer's Vienna Acoustic 'Motzarts'
They use SEAS drivers and well made cabs and are an extremly hard act to
follow.

Flatness is not just a carpenter's measure.



Without a very difficult-to-achieve stator flatness, nothing
can work right. Diaphragms are easily tensioned to flat in these
sizes; stators must be *made* flat in two dimensions. Easy to say...

The amount of out of flatness is less than 4%, and its not going to sway
the outcome
by any significant amount.

If you have provision for "warping" the stators to any extent
some tests with chalking and a glass plate might give some
useful input. If not, might still point in a useful direction.

Such techniques are not required. ESL speakers as ERAudio supply
ARE flat ENOUGH, and won't be better if flattened to any greater extent.

The distance between metal of the ESL-IIIB stator and membrane is approx
2.4mm.
Quad ESL57 had 4mm between bass conductive paint on the plastic stators
and bass membranes, and 2mm for treble panels.
See the Quad ESL 57 details posted elsewhere on the Net.

Are these perforated sheet stators, stretched wire, or something
else?

The stators are 0.6 slotted perforated steel, coated with "special"
powder coating,
but it failed to stop arcing from the membrane. I saw 2mm arcs al over
the place,
so nothing special about the coating. The two coats of anti corona
paint, Isonel 642 that I
thickly applied seems to have worked, as a 25uM film ( 0.001" ) gives
2,700V dielectric strength.
No more arcs out in the middle of panels, even at 5.5kV.

Since the ERA input tranny has a 1:90 ratio, and seems designed for
about 30Vrms absolute input max,
then you get 2,700Vrms at the sec, and 1,900V peak swing at each stator,
so methinks EHT of 3,000V should be enough.
I found it saturated at way too high an F, and needed twice the primary
turns per volt,
or double the core size...
So I strapped 56 ohms across the P winding, and placed 68 ohms plus
150uF NP
as a parallel network in series to reduce the signal from
pink noise or music from being forced through a saturating tranny
and also causing "membrane flap" when membrane tend to travel hard over
to the
stators at very low F and only moderate signal levels.
The electrostatic force varies as the distance squared, so it seems to
me that beyond
a certain linear push/pull motion limit of about +/- 2mm, the distortion
suddenly and dramatically
increases. Nobody warned me about this crap.....

I was using a 50 watt mosfet amp which is made to make a pure class A
input to 8 ohms, or 20Vrms.
Max Vout is 21Vrms. It was battling to make more than 90dB SPL.
Average Z of the ESL between 100Hz and 1kHz is about 14 ohms.

Today I reduced the EHT to 3,000, and so not much sputtery sounds from
discharges,
and changed the amp to a 300W quite blameless mosfet amp with about a
45Vrms max output
voltage and the performance was a lot better, so the 50 watt amp does
not produce enough
output VOLTAGE to achieve good results. High current is only needed
above 7kHz
where Z drops to 3.5 ohms min with the two 1.5 ohm series R to each leg
of the
input step up tranny.
But they are VERY insensitive.
Last night while reading what i could find on Quad ESL63 speakers,
I find that some say sensitivity is not 86 dB/2.83V, but 82dB for
2.83vrms input; forget power,
because Z changes drastically from over 50 ohms to only 3.5 ohms.
So to make 92dB you need 8.9Vrms, and for 102dB, about the maximum
expectable volume
you need 28.3 Vrms, which is just below the 30Vrms input limit for
ESL63.

I am hoping to achieve similar sensitivity in the ERAudio speakers as
found in Quad ESL63.
This isn't too much to expect from a kit.

My own dynamics are a flatter average 5.6 ohms between 100 and 1kHz and
easily make 88dB
for 2.36 Vrms input. A 25 watt tube amp gives excellent listening.

I am building the ESL-III B fore a client who purchased the kit.
He already has 13E1 set to give a load match of 1.8k : 6.2 ohms.
The only other load matches are for the OPT which I wond in 1997
without realizing where I may want Z to be in 2007 are 2.76 ohms and 25
ohms.

The 25 ohms load match would barely give enough
output voltage for the bass frequencies between 50 and 200Hz.
25Vrms into 25 ohms = 25 watts. But its better than the present
situation.
But with a 25 ohmn load match, at above 1khz there is a very poor load
match.
An alternative is to have two ESL input transformers to replace the one
from ERAudio,
one to drive the bass panels at high voltage, low current, and one to
drive the
treble panel operating above 1kHz with much less voltage but higher
current.

I probably could wind an input tranny of say 1:25 for the treble only,
and cap couple its primary; this could be a normal OPT placed backwards
for step up. The lower TR means a lower ZR, so the existing shunt C of
the tranny
high voltage winding isn't transformed to such a large C looking into
the primary.

To avoid the problem of the high shunt capacitance
of the kit input tranny there would need to be an inductor
in series with the LF tranny primary and so the load can be made
much easier for lower power amps to drive.

The ESL-III B has trouble going to LF below 60Hz and frankly a woofer
with 20Hz to 200Hz capability would make a better solution.

Martin Logan use a dynamic box speaker under their ESL, and I think I
may have to do it also.

My client and myself are trying to see if the ESL speakers will give
better
general clarity and panache and for this you need a blameless un-muddied
midrange and treble.

Patrick Turner.











Chris Hornbeck

"Beauty will save the world."
- Feodor Dostoevsky

"Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Truth is not
beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music."
- Frank Zappa

[[email protected]]

On Apr 15, 11:26 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Peter Wieck wrote:

On Apr 14, 12:38 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the results?

Patrick Turner.

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
to do quite well.

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.

Patrick Turner.





Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Patrick,
I have two friends with these.These are great value speakers and
capable of astonishing imaging.Like anything they have their faults-
they beam like most stats ,need amps that can deliver plenty of
current[1 ohm at 1000Hz! ] and really need a good ,fast sounding sub
to round off the bottom end.This is all pretty normal fullrange sort
of stat stuff of course.

Craig Brown who used to post here has a pair although he did not buy
them as a kit.He uses a sub I put together using an RCF pro 15 inch
woofer which works really well with them.

[TT]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in
Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the
results?

Patrick Turner.

As JT says here a mutual friend has these. He sold his Quad
ESL57s to buy the ER Audio ones.

I had a good long look at these before I bought my Equinox
Apogees and had an extensive demo of them at Rob McInlay's
house. I have met the guy and was run through all the
construction procedures and yes they do appear to be easy to
construct and for a man of your many talents it will be
piece of cake ;-)

I wanted Rob to supply a working, finished pair and he was
less than enthusiastic. Not having the time or the
inclination to build them myself the deal never went
further. Plus, as with *all* ESLs they were bass shy. He
even admits this on his site ;-)

The pair that I demoed were constructed of PVC water pipe
and these (I believe) are the ones Craig Brown ended up
with. As he is a cabinet maker he was going to construct
some nice frames and give me a ring when they were finished.
That is now over 2 years ago ;-)

IMHO for the money you can't go wrong.

If you ask slightly more specific questions perhaps I can
add some further detail?

Cheers TT

[Patrick Turner]

wrote:

On Apr 15, 11:26 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Peter Wieck wrote:

On Apr 14, 12:38 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the results?

Patrick Turner.

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
to do quite well.

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.

Patrick Turner.





Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Patrick,
I have two friends with these.These are great value speakers and
capable of astonishing imaging.Like anything they have their faults-
they beam like most stats ,need amps that can deliver plenty of
current[1 ohm at 1000Hz! ] and really need a good ,fast sounding sub
to round off the bottom end.This is all pretty normal fullrange sort
of stat stuff of course.

The problem is now that after fiddling with the panel i have just
completed
the EHT can be heard sputtering away at only 3kV, and sensitivity
is 77dB for 2.83Vrms input, so at present they are
at least 5dB below a Quad ESL63, maybe more, because some say '63 are
86dB for 2.83V.

Zin to the primary of the speaker is 50 ohms at 100hz down to 12 ohms at
1kHz,
and maximum Vin because of poor LF ability is about 20Vrms,
so actual maximum level available is too low.
EHT would be better if 5kV, and ther'd be an extra vital 9dB of
sensitivity.

Without the series R of 3 ohms at the tranny primary the Z falls to
about 4 ohms at
10kHz, and 1.5 ohms at 20kHz.



Craig Brown who used to post here has a pair although he did not buy
them as a kit.He uses a sub I put together using an RCF pro 15 inch
woofer which works really well with them.

I am thinking a pair of bass speakers for 20Hz to 200Hz under each ESL
would be best.

I will split the panel open tomorrow and re-apply some conductive
coating as finely
as possible to see if that's the cause of the noise problem.

At 5kV its like rain on a tin roof.

Its become noisy at only 3kV.

And at 2kV, sensivity falls to 75dB.....

Patrick Turner.

[Patrick Turner]

TT wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in
Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the
results?

Patrick Turner.

As JT says here a mutual friend has these. He sold his Quad
ESL57s to buy the ER Audio ones.

I had a good long look at these before I bought my Equinox
Apogees and had an extensive demo of them at Rob McInlay's
house. I have met the guy and was run through all the
construction procedures and yes they do appear to be easy to
construct and for a man of your many talents it will be
piece of cake ;-)

I wanted Rob to supply a working, finished pair and he was
less than enthusiastic. Not having the time or the
inclination to build them myself the deal never went
further. Plus, as with *all* ESLs they were bass shy. He
even admits this on his site ;-)

The pair that I demoed were constructed of PVC water pipe
and these (I believe) are the ones Craig Brown ended up
with. As he is a cabinet maker he was going to construct
some nice frames and give me a ring when they were finished.
That is now over 2 years ago ;-)

IMHO for the money you can't go wrong.

If you ask slightly more specific questions perhaps I can
add some further detail?

Cheers TT

Frankly, I am very dissapointed for the $2,000 kit price.

Sensivity is attrocious and i cannot get the unit I have finished
to stop making lots of discharge noises, even at only 3kV EHT.
Sensitivity is only 77dB for 2.83v at 1 kHz.
2kV is OK, but sensivity falls another 2dB.

With 5kV maybe they'd just be below Quad ESL 63.

So an amp capable of 300 watts into 3 ohms is needed.
This means grunt for the top end is there, as well as the voltage
where Z is high, but the step up tranny saturates at too high an F,
and it needs at least twice the turns per volt.
I have addressed this problem with a 150uF in series with the input
tranny,
and damped the resulting peaked LF response at 70Hz because of the 32mH
of input inductance.
These speakers misbehave badly if allowed to have any high level signal
below 50Hz applied.
Pink noise testing without a blocking cap gave truly terrible
performance,
flapping membrane and saturating tranny, and not at a very loud level.

My advice now for anyone buying an ESL kit is to make sure that the
panels are
all assembled and have an unconditional warranty against noise and for
sensitivity for 2 years, and all the timber surround and box for
electronics should be supplied ready cut and needing only assembly.

Only ever buy from a maker where complete information about the response
of the finished panels
are given, impedance plots, and correct circuit information and
guranteed sensitivity.

Patrick Turner.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:57:48 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:

I will split the panel open tomorrow and re-apply some conductive
coating as finely
as possible to see if that's the cause of the noise problem.

How conductive is the coating, and how carefully can you control
surface resistance? IIRC, point to point resistance an inch apart
should be somewhere in the 10K ohm to 100K ohm range.

This is necessary both to minimize arcing and to maintain
"constant charge" for low distortion.

Sounds like a fun project. All good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

"Beauty will save the world."
- Feodor Dostoevsky

"Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Truth is not
beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music."
- Frank Zappa

[Peter Wieck]

On Apr 14, 10:26 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
Peter Wieck wrote:

On Apr 14, 12:38 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the results?

Patrick Turner.

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
to do quite well.

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.

Patrick Turner.





Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Given your past posts in general and further posts in this thread, I
believe you are the victim of a faulty kit. Given that your experience
has repeated, it is likely in the design/ergonomics (not the design
principles).

Don't give up until the supplier makes good!

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[west]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Peter Wieck wrote:

On Apr 14, 12:38 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the results?

Patrick Turner.

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
to do quite well.



I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.


Patrick Turner.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Patrick: I miss my Acoustat 2+2s. The few things they did right, they did
very right. Mid range transparency, imaging, air, was an ethereal experience
for me that hence-forth hooked me into hi-end audio. The things that were
wrong, was having to keep my head in a sweet-spot vise, and occasional
beaming. These 8 foot goliaths were only a one man speaker taking away from
my ability to simultaneously share the experience with my wife and friends.
The only speaker that may come close, from my experience, are the original
Quads. However, it's difficult for me to invest in a 30 year old pair. I've
been searching for many years for something to duplicate that mid range
magic without having to pay a left mam. You don't suppose that these kit
speakers could fit the bill? They certainly look appealing. But, then again,
looks can be deceiving. Let me know dude, if you will, what your thoughts
are. Thanks.

west

[TT]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


TT wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in
message
...
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in
Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the
results?

Patrick Turner.

As JT says here a mutual friend has these. He sold his
Quad
ESL57s to buy the ER Audio ones.

I had a good long look at these before I bought my
Equinox
Apogees and had an extensive demo of them at Rob
McInlay's
house. I have met the guy and was run through all the
construction procedures and yes they do appear to be easy
to
construct and for a man of your many talents it will be
piece of cake ;-)

I wanted Rob to supply a working, finished pair and he
was
less than enthusiastic. Not having the time or the
inclination to build them myself the deal never went
further. Plus, as with *all* ESLs they were bass shy.
He
even admits this on his site ;-)

The pair that I demoed were constructed of PVC water pipe
and these (I believe) are the ones Craig Brown ended up
with. As he is a cabinet maker he was going to construct
some nice frames and give me a ring when they were
finished.
That is now over 2 years ago ;-)

IMHO for the money you can't go wrong.

If you ask slightly more specific questions perhaps I can
add some further detail?

Cheers TT

Frankly, I am very dissapointed for the $2,000 kit price.

Sensivity is attrocious and i cannot get the unit I have
finished
to stop making lots of discharge noises, even at only 3kV
EHT.
Sensitivity is only 77dB for 2.83v at 1 kHz.
2kV is OK, but sensivity falls another 2dB.

With 5kV maybe they'd just be below Quad ESL 63.

So an amp capable of 300 watts into 3 ohms is needed.
This means grunt for the top end is there, as well as the
voltage
where Z is high, but the step up tranny saturates at too
high an F,
and it needs at least twice the turns per volt.
I have addressed this problem with a 150uF in series with
the input
tranny,
and damped the resulting peaked LF response at 70Hz
because of the 32mH
of input inductance.
These speakers misbehave badly if allowed to have any high
level signal
below 50Hz applied.
Pink noise testing without a blocking cap gave truly
terrible
performance,
flapping membrane and saturating tranny, and not at a very
loud level.

My advice now for anyone buying an ESL kit is to make sure
that the
panels are
all assembled and have an unconditional warranty against
noise and for
sensitivity for 2 years, and all the timber surround and
box for
electronics should be supplied ready cut and needing only
assembly.

Only ever buy from a maker where complete information
about the response
of the finished panels
are given, impedance plots, and correct circuit
information and
guranteed sensitivity.

Patrick Turner.

Ah I now see where you are coming from. This is exactly why
I wanted them assembled and *tested* by the manufacturer
before delivery to me.

I am very sorry to hear that you are having these problems
with them and if someone of your calibre has run into
trouble what hope as a mere "mug" got?

BTW if you have a flapping membrane then obviously the
tensioning was done incorrectly. The way it was
shown/demonstrated to me appeared to be very simple. IIRC
(from nearly 3 years ago) you have to use the "tension
gauge" Rob has made on the panels. Apparently (from I have
read) this is secret with Quad ESLs as well and why a
rebuilt ones usually sound better than they did originally -
accurate membrane panel tension. This was a big issue with
Peter Walker when he started manufacturing and trying to
quality control the product.

Have a chat to Rob MacKinlay I am sure you can get it
sorted.

Cheers TT

PS IMHO I do agree with your thoughts on the kit. They are
a little too basic for the average person. It would be like
giving someone a cup full of sand and a roll of wire and
some instructions of how to make a 300B tube ;-) The
results could vary widely.

[Patrick Turner]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:57:48 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:

I will split the panel open tomorrow and re-apply some conductive
coating as finely
as possible to see if that's the cause of the noise problem.

How conductive is the coating, and how carefully can you control
surface resistance? IIRC, point to point resistance an inch apart
should be somewhere in the 10K ohm to 100K ohm range.

The resistance is gi-normous. After placing two coins on the membrane
only a few mm apart,
and placing probes to see whar R there was, it was still over limit, ie,
above 30M.
The kit supplier says this is right, you do not want low resistance that
you are nominating.
The charge must not be able to run in and out of the panel membrane
easily or bass F distortions will occur.

I don't know how critical it is to have enough or too much supplied
coating applied.

Patrick Turner.

This is necessary both to minimize arcing and to maintain
"constant charge" for low distortion.

Sounds like a fun project. All good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

"Beauty will save the world."
- Feodor Dostoevsky

"Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Truth is not
beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music."
- Frank Zappa

[Patrick Turner]

Peter Wieck wrote:

On Apr 14, 10:26 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
Peter Wieck wrote:

On Apr 14, 12:38 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the results?

Patrick Turner.

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
to do quite well.

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.

Patrick Turner.





Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Given your past posts in general and further posts in this thread, I
believe you are the victim of a faulty kit. Given that your experience
has repeated, it is likely in the design/ergonomics (not the design
principles).

Don't give up until the supplier makes good!

I think the membrane coating is a problem, and as I have to apply it,
it's not the kit suppliers's fault, or problem, its on me to just get it
right.

I am not sure the density is correct.

I am never likely to agree I am a victim to a faulty kit until I really
proove it.
At this point in time I am not sure the kit supplier
could help me at all.

I am now looking for an alternative factory produced conductive membrane
someone told me about by phone this am.

Patrick Turner.




Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Patrick Turner]

TT wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


TT wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in
message
...
Anyone here construct an ESL-III kit from EA Audio in
Perth?

If so, what was you experience, and how good were the
results?

Patrick Turner.

As JT says here a mutual friend has these. He sold his
Quad
ESL57s to buy the ER Audio ones.

I had a good long look at these before I bought my
Equinox
Apogees and had an extensive demo of them at Rob
McInlay's
house. I have met the guy and was run through all the
construction procedures and yes they do appear to be easy
to
construct and for a man of your many talents it will be
piece of cake ;-)

I wanted Rob to supply a working, finished pair and he
was
less than enthusiastic. Not having the time or the
inclination to build them myself the deal never went
further. Plus, as with *all* ESLs they were bass shy.
He
even admits this on his site ;-)

The pair that I demoed were constructed of PVC water pipe
and these (I believe) are the ones Craig Brown ended up
with. As he is a cabinet maker he was going to construct
some nice frames and give me a ring when they were
finished.
That is now over 2 years ago ;-)

IMHO for the money you can't go wrong.

If you ask slightly more specific questions perhaps I can
add some further detail?

Cheers TT

Frankly, I am very dissapointed for the $2,000 kit price.

Sensivity is attrocious and i cannot get the unit I have
finished
to stop making lots of discharge noises, even at only 3kV
EHT.
Sensitivity is only 77dB for 2.83v at 1 kHz.
2kV is OK, but sensivity falls another 2dB.

With 5kV maybe they'd just be below Quad ESL 63.

So an amp capable of 300 watts into 3 ohms is needed.
This means grunt for the top end is there, as well as the
voltage
where Z is high, but the step up tranny saturates at too
high an F,
and it needs at least twice the turns per volt.
I have addressed this problem with a 150uF in series with
the input
tranny,
and damped the resulting peaked LF response at 70Hz
because of the 32mH
of input inductance.
These speakers misbehave badly if allowed to have any high
level signal
below 50Hz applied.
Pink noise testing without a blocking cap gave truly
terrible
performance,
flapping membrane and saturating tranny, and not at a very
loud level.

My advice now for anyone buying an ESL kit is to make sure
that the
panels are
all assembled and have an unconditional warranty against
noise and for
sensitivity for 2 years, and all the timber surround and
box for
electronics should be supplied ready cut and needing only
assembly.

Only ever buy from a maker where complete information
about the response
of the finished panels
are given, impedance plots, and correct circuit
information and
guranteed sensitivity.

Patrick Turner.

Ah I now see where you are coming from. This is exactly why
I wanted them assembled and *tested* by the manufacturer
before delivery to me.

I am very sorry to hear that you are having these problems
with them and if someone of your calibre has run into
trouble what hope as a mere "mug" got?

BTW if you have a flapping membrane then obviously the
tensioning was done incorrectly. The way it was
shown/demonstrated to me appeared to be very simple.

After two successful attempts at tensioning the membrane
with strips of tape and a tension guage, the membrane tensioning
was right, and repeatable easily.

IIRC
(from nearly 3 years ago) you have to use the "tension
gauge" Rob has made on the panels.

Even with correct tension, "panel flap" is still possible.
Tensioning is easy to get even enough with the guage.



Apparently (from I have
read) this is secret with Quad ESLs as well and why a
rebuilt ones usually sound better than they did originally -
accurate membrane panel tension. This was a big issue with
Peter Walker when he started manufacturing and trying to
quality control the product.

Have a chat to Rob MacKinlay I am sure you can get it
sorted.

Hmm, I am anthing but sure that taling to Rob will help.
Been there done that.



Cheers TT

PS IMHO I do agree with your thoughts on the kit. They are
a little too basic for the average person. It would be like
giving someone a cup full of sand and a roll of wire and
some instructions of how to make a 300B tube ;-) The
results could vary widely.

Or like me handing someone a stack of core material, a bobbin,
and some wire, and they can have a tube amp OPT without much trouble.
Like hell they could.

But other responses to my posts on the ESL-III B could be leading to a
way out
to the troubles I am having.

My research indicates the panels *SHOULD WORK OK* if constructed
properly. I have done enough research on theory to indicate
that the ERA panels should work OK, its just that when you DIY a pair,
you don't have the R&D the inventor used.

I am investigating a supply of alternative and better membrane material.

Patrick Turner.

[TT]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...
:
snipped for readability

: My research indicates the panels *SHOULD WORK OK* if
constructed
: properly. I have done enough research on theory to
indicate
: that the ERA panels should work OK, its just that when you
DIY a pair,
: you don't have the R&D the inventor used.
:
Cones are still looking prety good ATM IMHO ;-)

: I am investigating a supply of alternative and better
membrane material.
:
I believe the same stuff from ERA is also used in Quad ESL
restorations so it may not be a material issue.

: Patrick Turner.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Regards TT

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 02:43:55 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:

How conductive is the coating, and how carefully can you control
surface resistance? IIRC, point to point resistance an inch apart
should be somewhere in the 10K ohm to 100K ohm range.

The resistance is gi-normous. After placing two coins on the membrane
only a few mm apart,
and placing probes to see whar R there was, it was still over limit, ie,
above 30M.
The kit supplier says this is right, you do not want low resistance that
you are nominating.
The charge must not be able to run in and out of the panel membrane
easily or bass F distortions will occur.

Well, yeah, or at least maybe. But the diaphragm must have
functionally the same voltage everywhere. Too much specific R
is going to put the diaphram RC rolloff down into the audio
range and different at different spots. Very bad news.

This thing does have an external resistor feeding the
diaphragm, doesn't it? Coupla megs, maybe? Maybe ten or so?

Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

"Beauty will save the world."
- Feodor Dostoevsky

"Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Truth is not
beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music."
- Frank Zappa

[Sean]

Patrick Turner wrote:

I think the membrane coating is a problem, and as I have to apply it,
it's not the kit suppliers's fault, or problem, its on me to just get it
right.

I am not sure the density is correct.

I am never likely to agree I am a victim to a faulty kit until I really
proove it.
At this point in time I am not sure the kit supplier
could help me at all.

I am now looking for an alternative factory produced conductive membrane
someone told me about by phone this am.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick, Try This guy

http://www.quadesl.org/Area_51/area_51.html

He's based in Aus, and the prices are very reasonable.


The kit sounds like a bit of a nightmare. Maybe thats why its in kit form.
With patience your $2k would have bought a very nice set of second hand
ESL57.

Cheers

Sean

[Phil Allison]

"Patrick Turner"


I think the membrane coating is a problem, and as I have to apply it,
it's not the kit suppliers's fault, or problem, its on me to just get it
right.

I am not sure the density is correct.



** Try using a bit less lime in the mix.





...... Phil

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"


I think the membrane coating is a problem, and as I have to apply it,
it's not the kit suppliers's fault, or problem, its on me to just get it
right.

I am not sure the density is correct.

** Try using a bit less lime in the mix.

Nah, the lime content is just right, but the detergent%
to fatten up the mud to make laying the membrane needs correct
measurement :-)).

But I have since discovered a far worse phenomena about ESL kits
that may be far more difficult to prevent and evade.

Patrick Turner.






..... Phil

[Patrick Turner]

Not too many people who read these groups have experience with building
ESL
panel speakers either of their own design, or that of a kit supplier.

The problem of the crackles and noise after EHT supply was turned off
became
obvious when i dismantled the offending panel unit today.

On one of the bass sections in the panel, the membrane had become stuck
to the stator
and this seemed really odd because it had been turned off since last
night.

But why? it appears that if the EHT is raised considerably, say to 5kV
then the membrane can decide to simply swing to one or the other
stators.
Nothing keeps the membrane central between two stators except its
tension.
The electrostatic force depends on the square of the distance between
the charged objects.
This means that if very slightly different forces exist from membrane to
each stator in the idle condition
then the membrane will be slightly off centre, but
the tension keeps the opposing force difference nulled, and the membrane
stays nearly central.
Small distance movements are very linear because the are small, and 2H
cancels.

When a large bass signal voltage is applied, the -ve membrane can move
further than 2mm,
and when than happens, you can have a much bigger increasing force of
attraction
to one +ve going stator than is the force of repulsion by the -ve going
stator.
And the as the distance reduces between stator and membrane
where there is attraction, a huge increase in force occurs, and the
membrane
slams tight against the stator, and despite consequent voltage phase
change to the stator signal voltage,
the membrane does not want to let go, and will stay stuck.
Nobody I know explains why the membrane stays put after PS turn off, and
after discharge,
or exactly what I need to do about it,
but I know this **** happens not just to me.

I just had a long chat with a guy who specialises in repairs of Quad
ESL,
and after I explained the noises I was getting after turn off he said
I had this problem of "stiction" something that is not referred to in
the
instruction manuals from ERA.
My mentor repairist said he had witnessed the same problem in Quad ESL
speakers,
and that the membrane sticks so tight, like shrink wrap, that it must be
physically
pushed off the stator, which I was able to do with smooth bent piece of
copper wire
poked through slots in the stator to which the membrane was stuck.

So the response tests I made are all meaningless if I had a stuck
membrane to one bass panel.

More wasted time and effort.

Before finding out this unpleasant behavioural problem affecting all
ESL, i suspected I had too thin a conductive coating, or one which
wasn't evenly establishing itself after turn on, or evenly
un-establishing itself
at turn off, so I have applied a second thin coating, so as to get more
even cover,
rather like using two thin coats of paint to paint over a strong colour
rather than use one thick coat which invariably will not
cover evenly.

My mentor says this is likely to make things worse.

Hmm, he knows how cause depression, anyway, we'll see when i fire them
up again in 2 days,
but I won'r be trying to use -5,000V for the EHT.

I'd sure like to use 5,000V.
The speakers work with only low EHT.
Yesterday I made measurements of sensivity
which indicated it varied nearly proportionaly to the EHT applied
while keeping the ac voltage constant.
In this case the signal was pink noise of 15Hz to 30kHz BW.
The filter after the amplified mic signal was set at 1kHz, and then the
response plotted.
So that with -1,000V, I got a reference 0dB SPL, and at 2,000V, SPL
went up +5dB, and response variation was the same for all F, and
at 3,000V it was 7.5dB, and at 4,000 it was +9dB,
and only minor response changes. So 5,000V would have brought perhaps
another dB.
So I cannot see that I can realise the same sensitivity as Quad ESL63
which are rated officially at 85dB, but some say 86, some say 82, sine
wave input and
if I can only use 1/2 the EHT that Quad use, ie about -2,500V,
I can only expect sensitivity of about 78 dB for 2.83V input, sine wave,
so for what I think is the safe maximum signal level of 28Vrms,
maximum SPL would be 98dB at 1kHz, but certainly not at 100Hz or lower.
My customer has amps capable of 14V into 12ohms which is the 1 khz Z.
So he'll only get a maximal 15V into 16 ohms, or about 92dB maximum SPL.
Average listening levels could only be at about 82dB, where
the average signal voltage would be 4.4Vrms before clipping became very
obvious.

Since the Z of the ESL-IIIB falls from 12 ohms at 1kHz to 4 ohms at
10kHz, and lower above that,
the amp would be somewhat over taxed at an average of only 82dB.
At presenr higher SPLs are much more easily obtained using Vienna
Acoustic Motzart dynamic speakers.


3.5uM thick polyester used for ERA membranes is the same thickness as
used in Quad ESL 63.
This thickness gives the best HF extension.
Quad ESL 57 use 6uM for the mid/treble centre panels
and 12uM for the two outer bass panels.
However, Quad ESL63 use much more tension than recommended by ERA.
ERA say tension panels by applying 0.8Kg for each 60mm along each of the
4 sides of the panel.
My mentor says Quad use 2.5Kg along each 60mm, or 3 times the tension.
The ERA bass panels have a pronounced bass panel resonance at around 32
Hz and my mentor says
Quad's bass panel Fo is at 50Hz. It means you throw away some possible
bass extension to
get less tendency for stiction to occur.

Quad use a nylon coating to each side of the membrane, and the
resistance of the coating
is much higher than offered by ERA, thousands of megohms "per square"
and
pppl building this gear need to search for what that means.
But coating resistance cannot be measured using a normal DVM with a
range up to say 50Mohms.
So I could be wrong on this one because I cannot confirm an assumed fact
with
a measurement.

So if you cannot measure the R, then its hit and miss about quality;
what hope has any
diyer got?

So because my ERA recommended tension is 3 times less than on a Quad
ESL63 speaker,
I cannot use too high an EHT, for doing so promotes the likehood of this
stiction **** thing happening,
and I can only guess that about 2,500V is the limit.
The speakers still work when a large fraction of a bass panel membrane
area remains stuck to a stator.
ERA recommend using the anti-resonant node points consisting of dobs of
silicone between one stator
and membrane, but I don't think this could prevent stiction.
So I would have to assume a few speakers are out there and stuck, and
the owners never
wonder why there is so little bass, never question the not so hot sound,
they always knew they'd be a bit bass free.

I suspected Quad ESL57 would have freedon from stiction, but 'tis not so
my mentor says;
he has seen examples of it happening. The stators of Quad57 are 2mm
thick perforated plastic plates,
and the actual stator is an applied coat of conducting paint on the
outside only of the stator,
so the membrane can only move 2mm max from centre, and move no closer
than 2mm away
from the stator.
But if it does not stop stiction, then if I glued strips of plastic
across the
ESL-IIIB stators 0.5mm thick to keep the membrane off the stator
surface it cannot be expected to work 100% of the time.

And some form of input voltage limiting will be needed. Maybe only one
burst of
excessive input voltage is all that's needed to make the stiction occur.

This all leads me futher to limiting F input to these simplisticly
designed speakers to
200Hz and using a bass reflex box.
This should raise the undistorted ceiling for remaining frequencies.

My customer likes the bass speakers I make, and one does not have to try
hard to make
better bass than what is possible from an electrostatic alone.

This would leave the ESL to better perform on the mid and treble F.

My 2 cents worth...

Patrick Turner.

[TT]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Not too many people who read these groups have experience
with building
ESL
panel speakers either of their own design, or that of a
kit supplier.

snipped long involved explanation

My 2 cents worth...

Patrick Turner.

Ahhhhh......... that all makes sense now. You have really
done an excellent job of detailing all the pitfalls with
these things and it is a real pity you had to go through all
the dramas. As I said before I have spent time evaluating
these speakers and have seriously considered them as a
viable project once more time becomes available. So a big
thanks, I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
now ;-)

BTW after reading what you wrote I just wonder how many
people will start sticking bits of copper wire through ESL
stators with the power still turned on? :-))

Cheers TT

[Tonni]

BTW after reading what you wrote I just wonder how many people will start
sticking bits of copper wire through ESL stators with the power still
turned on? :-))

BBQ??? ;-)

/Tonni

[Patrick Turner]

TT wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Not too many people who read these groups have experience
with building
ESL
panel speakers either of their own design, or that of a
kit supplier.

snipped long involved explanation

My 2 cents worth...

Patrick Turner.

Ahhhhh......... that all makes sense now. You have really
done an excellent job of detailing all the pitfalls with
these things and it is a real pity you had to go through all
the dramas. As I said before I have spent time evaluating
these speakers and have seriously considered them as a
viable project once more time becomes available. So a big
thanks, I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
now ;-)

Well maybe I coax some performance if I can iron out the bugs.
If I stop the membrane stiction and discharges, and limit all the
voltages,
and use a full range dynamic woofer, maybe use more "node point" damper
blobs of silicone,
maybe it all works OK.
My customer has a sub able to go to 22hz and could go to 1kHz.
But perhaps it could be used to get to say 200Hz, and have the panels
used for above that but
I don't know how well that will work.
The sub would have its own amp as now, but the amp system becomes a
bi-amp system, not one amp plus sub.
A filter to keep out F below 200Hz from main mid/treble tube amps would
effectively
raise their voltage ceiling 6dB, not to be sneezed at.

Also, I have found another way to configure these SEUL amp OPTs I built
in 1997
to have an additional useful load match to about 12 ohms.
I need higher voltage, not high current at F between 200Hz and 2kHz,
and the NFB should push the amp into making the little bit of music
signal power above 2kHz into the lower Z, without the output voltage
sagging too badly,
just like what Quad II manages to do when driving the similar Z as
ESL57.
Quad II amps have Rout = 9 ohms when there is no global NFB.
Its the global NFB that enable the low Z load voltage to be maintained.
The amp will never experience huge signals at 10kHz.
If you ever have set your system up with busy music at loud levels,
and you disconnect the mid and bass units, so only sound above 3kHz
is heard, you'll think something is wrong, its such a small signal.
This tiny bit of signal is essential, but its able to be handled
even with low Z speakers. Where crossover is at 5 or 7kHz, things are
even quieter.


BTW after reading what you wrote I just wonder how many
people will start sticking bits of copper wire through ESL
stators with the power still turned on? :-))

They would sure get a zap and a half
if some heavey metal recording was playing full tilt, and they
touched the stators while being connected to the
common 0V rail. But this would be unlikely.
The body's arm to arm resistance of 30k across the secondary
of the input tranny would reflect a load of 3 ohms to the amp,
and possibly blow a protection circuit.
But the HV zap would maybe give you a reflex action to make you kick the
speaker out a window,
send yourself across the room and then collapsing onto the tube
amp......

The cat would definitely run away frightened to under a bed somewhere...

But shock could only be from the stators, not from the membrane, which
does have a HV connected,
but the current from it is extremely low.

The problem with many kits is that they cannot sell many unless the
price
seems very low compared to the fully manufactured and promoted product,
and usually the kit seller hasn't done the full bore research and
factual presentation
which takes all his sundays and holiday time for several years.
Peter Walker was the REAL MASTER.

After looking around the world at small time builders of ESL speakers,
there is little information about whatever ppl are making.
There are very few test results of what happens in arduous signal
conditions.
There's a lot of pride in ppl's efforts, fine, but
one has to know more before spending....
I cannot think of anyone who shows he understands the electronics fully.

One guy made panels about 2M x 1.2M and sure, there would be enough
bass.
Sure they'll beam a lot. What big beams you have sir!
Sit anywhere, you will be within sir's big beams....

The input transformer to drive such a panel
was rather a large lump of iron.
Great, a step in the right direction for sure.
This allows the use of fewer turns of wire, and plenty
of room for nice thick insulation to keep the capacitances low, and
never suffer
transformer arcing, very likely if thin insulation is used.
A big core also makes room for interleaving to keep leakage inductances
low enough,
and without increasing capacitance too much.
Ah, but ppl tend to avoid the weight, the turns, the interleaving,
and they forget capacitances....and don't even varnish their trannies,
let alone pot them in modified beeswax like Quad.

Alas, there are no details of the turns in the transformer, so if you
want to
have one wound, you can't unless you know all about how to do it
yourself.
I'm lucky I do, and can smile at some efforts i see.....

If you try to make an amplifier drive such a huge panel as one
large full range type, then the load is true terror for most amps,
so one guy designs an able able to handle huge capacitances....
Lots and lots of bjts.....

I decided not to bother with secrets, and composed an 18MB website.

Patrick Turner.








Cheers TT

[west]

Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
to do quite well.

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick: I miss my Acoustat 2+2s. The few things they did right, they did
very right. Mid range transparency, imaging, air, was an ethereal experience
for me that hence-forth hooked me into hi-end audio. The things that were
wrong, was having to keep my head in a sweet-spot vise, and occasional
beaming. These 8 foot goliaths were only a one man speaker taking away from
my ability to simultaneously share the experience with my wife and friends.
The only speaker that may come close, from my experience, are the original
Quad 57s. However, it's difficult for me to invest in a 30 year old pair.
I've
been searching for many years for something to duplicate that mid range
magic without having to pay a left mam. You don't suppose that these kit
speakers could fit the bill? They certainly look appealing. But, then again,
looks can be deceiving. Let me know dude, if you will, what your thoughts
are. Thanks.

west

[TT]

"west" wrote in message
news:RvPUh.1972$xP.372@trnddc04...
Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know
who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them
by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine
hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with
pleasure tend
to do quite well.

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of
technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am
beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good
performance.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick: I miss my Acoustat 2+2s. The few things they did
right, they did
very right. Mid range transparency, imaging, air, was an
ethereal experience
for me that hence-forth hooked me into hi-end audio. The
things that were
wrong, was having to keep my head in a sweet-spot vise,
and occasional
beaming. These 8 foot goliaths were only a one man speaker
taking away from
my ability to simultaneously share the experience with my
wife and friends.
The only speaker that may come close, from my experience,
are the original
Quad 57s. However, it's difficult for me to invest in a 30
year old pair.
I've
been searching for many years for something to duplicate
that mid range
magic without having to pay a left mam. You don't suppose
that these kit
speakers could fit the bill? They certainly look
appealing. But, then again,
looks can be deceiving. Let me know dude, if you will,
what your thoughts
are. Thanks.

west

Have you had a good look at Martin Logans? Their ESL
panels are certainly equal to Quads although IME with the
older model MLs the woofer integration was something to be
desired :-( BTW when I listen to them they were being
driven by an Atmasphere Tube amp as well.

I am led to believe the latest offerings from ML have the
bugs ironed out. I am yet to hear for myself.

Cheers TT

[TT]

"Tonni" wrote in message
...
: BTW after reading what you wrote I just wonder how many
people will start
: sticking bits of copper wire through ESL stators with
the power still
: turned on? :-))
:
: BBQ??? ;-)
:
: /Tonni
:
Ever watched a moth in a bug zapper ;-)

TT

[west]

"TT" wrote in message
...

"west" wrote in message
news:RvPUh.1972$xP.372@trnddc04...
Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know
who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them
by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine
hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with
pleasure tend
to do quite well.

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of
technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am
beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good
performance.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick: I miss my Acoustat 2+2s. The few things they did
right, they did
very right. Mid range transparency, imaging, air, was an
ethereal experience
for me that hence-forth hooked me into hi-end audio. The
things that were
wrong, was having to keep my head in a sweet-spot vise,
and occasional
beaming. These 8 foot goliaths were only a one man speaker
taking away from
my ability to simultaneously share the experience with my
wife and friends.
The only speaker that may come close, from my experience,
are the original
Quad 57s. However, it's difficult for me to invest in a 30
year old pair.
I've
been searching for many years for something to duplicate
that mid range
magic without having to pay a left mam. You don't suppose
that these kit
speakers could fit the bill? They certainly look
appealing. But, then again,
looks can be deceiving. Let me know dude, if you will,
what your thoughts
are. Thanks.

west

Have you had a good look at Martin Logans? Their ESL
panels are certainly equal to Quads although IME with the
older model MLs the woofer integration was something to be
desired :-( BTW when I listen to them they were being
driven by an Atmasphere Tube amp as well.

I am led to believe the latest offerings from ML have the
bugs ironed out. I am yet to hear for myself.

Cheers TT

Hey TT, thanks for the comeback. Hi-end shops are far and few between where
I reside. If you hear the new MLs, perhaps you can let me know your
thoughts. I would like to ask you 2 questions: Have you ever auditioned the
CLS speakers and what do you think of Maggies, now that you have a hint of
my tastes.

Cordially,
west

[Jeßus[_2_]]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:50:23 +0800, TT wrote:


I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
now ;-)

Ditto. It seems like all I read about these types of speakers is grief
and pain. I think I'll steer well clear of the buggers now and forever!

[TT]

"west" wrote in message
news:BEUUh.1437$xL6.733@trnddc05...
:
: : west
:
: Have you had a good look at Martin Logans? Their ESL
: panels are certainly equal to Quads although IME with
the
: older model MLs the woofer integration was something to
be
: desired :-( BTW when I listen to them they were being
: driven by an Atmasphere Tube amp as well.
:
: I am led to believe the latest offerings from ML have
the
: bugs ironed out. I am yet to hear for myself.
:
: Cheers TT
:
: Hey TT, thanks for the comeback. Hi-end shops are far and
few between where
: I reside.

Believe me I know how you feel. True high end shops are few
and far between everywhere and I have to do a lot of
travelling or visit friends that have the gear.

: If you hear the new MLs, perhaps you can let me know your
: thoughts.

It could be a little while ;-)

I would like to ask you 2 questions: Have you ever
auditioned the
: CLS speakers

I am unfamiliar with the term. Is it a name, brand or type?
Perhaps a link to clarify?

: and what do you think of Maggies,

I have been looking for some to listen to for years and have
just about given up trying :-(

: now that you have a hint of
: my tastes.

Here is something that may intrigue you.

http://tinyurl.com/5tw5b

IMHO ribbon technology matched to good cone drivers is the
way to go. I was very impressed when I heard these and they
combine the ESL uncoloured sound but with cone bass punch.
Also no cabinet resonance problems either ;-)

:
: Cordially,
: west
:
Now you have a hint of my taste ;-) The singularly most
disappointing aspect of any ESL is their lack of bass punch
and very poor SPLs. I do not wish to start any arguments
with anyone here but all I can say is if anyone thinks ESLs
aren't as I describe them then they do not attend live
venues.

Here is another speaker I am very impressed with
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/prd_1p1.html although I
am only familiar with the 1.0 version. Unfortunately these
are a little out of most people's price range ;-) A friend
of mine has owned a set of these for years and I am always
amazed at what they can do.

Again, ribbon hybrid technology ;-)

Cheers TT

[Patrick Turner]

west wrote:

"TT" wrote in message
...

"west" wrote in message
news:RvPUh.1972$xP.372@trnddc04...
Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Patrick:

No to your direct question. However, those that I know
who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them
by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine
hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with
pleasure tend
to do quite well.

I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of
technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am
beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good
performance.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick: I miss my Acoustat 2+2s. The few things they did
right, they did
very right. Mid range transparency, imaging, air, was an
ethereal experience
for me that hence-forth hooked me into hi-end audio. The
things that were
wrong, was having to keep my head in a sweet-spot vise,
and occasional
beaming. These 8 foot goliaths were only a one man speaker
taking away from
my ability to simultaneously share the experience with my
wife and friends.
The only speaker that may come close, from my experience,
are the original
Quad 57s. However, it's difficult for me to invest in a 30
year old pair.
I've
been searching for many years for something to duplicate
that mid range
magic without having to pay a left mam. You don't suppose
that these kit
speakers could fit the bill? They certainly look
appealing. But, then again,
looks can be deceiving. Let me know dude, if you will,
what your thoughts
are. Thanks.

west

Have you had a good look at Martin Logans? Their ESL
panels are certainly equal to Quads although IME with the
older model MLs the woofer integration was something to be
desired :-( BTW when I listen to them they were being
driven by an Atmasphere Tube amp as well.

I am led to believe the latest offerings from ML have the
bugs ironed out. I am yet to hear for myself.

Cheers TT

Hey TT, thanks for the comeback. Hi-end shops are far and few between where
I reside. If you hear the new MLs, perhaps you can let me know your
thoughts. I would like to ask you 2 questions: Have you ever auditioned the
CLS speakers and what do you think of Maggies, now that you have a hint of
my tastes.

Cordially,
west

Last time I listened to the smaller 4' high ML with dynamic woofer
it was at a hi-fi shop and they played a CD of the opera Carmen, and
used a soid state amp. I thought the massed strings were the best
reproduction I'd ever heard.

Years later I built dynamic speakers which I thought could compete
with anything using top range dynamic SEAS drivers and boxes 20dB better
than any of the commercial
junk in the shops.

Trying to get the EAR speakers to equal what I have become routinely
used to
every day is a very tall order.

As you know, if you have read my recent other posts about ERA, the
bass membranes can become stuck to the stator, stiction I call it,
and so I may have to severly limit their abilities, ie,
just convert to ML ideology, and forget trying vainly for
any ESL bass below about 200Hz, and then just use the ERA for
mid and treble. Perhaps when the sound is unmuddied by the presence of
bass
and stiction won't occur because there would be no large membrane
movements,
I might just have a nice sounding panel speaker even though
it will need lots of voltage to drive it.

A guy in the UK has built these speakers and he tells me they are
less sensitive than either Quad ESL57 or 63.
He says he's tried 6kV EHT without trouble, and that 16 watts is enough,
but he also sells the kits, and I am immune to sales BS.

If I find I cannot use 6kV, and must use 2.5kV, the speakers become at
least 7dB less efficient,
which places them a LOT less sensitive then Quads, or the dynamics i am
used to.

The last tests of performance were done with a bass panel
stuck to a stator while I wasn't aware of it.

The speaker worked, but obviously any response measurements or
sensitivity
would not be correct.

ERA instructions include a layout for 10 small blobs of silicone to be
applied
in a line along the panels between one stator and the membrane on the
non-conductive coated side.
I cannot see how such measures can stop membrane stiction.
The problem of stiction is simply not mentioned in the ERA assembly
manual.
Without bass there would be much less membrane travel, and should help
to stop it,
and allow greater ceiling for the mid/treble.
One guy also from the UK emailed me saying he had a 15" open baffle
speaker for the bass.
Such a speaker is much more likely to handle
high levels of 50Hz notes without membrane flapping between stators or
causing transformer
saturations.

Patrick Turner.

[Patrick Turner]

Jeßus wrote:

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:50:23 +0800, TT wrote:

I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
now ;-)

Ditto. It seems like all I read about these types of speakers is grief
and pain. I think I'll steer well clear of the buggers now and forever!

I have not finished yet.

I may be able to overcome most of the problems I am encountering.

I am simply letting folks know what troubles they could expect
while building them. If built as well as other renowned ESL
they should perform as well. Just remeber a new pair of Quad ESL
is going to cost $14,000 or some silly amount.
So things could be a lot worse!

Patrick Turner.

[west]

"TT" wrote in message
...

"west" wrote in message
news:BEUUh.1437$xL6.733@trnddc05...
:
: : west
:
: Have you had a good look at Martin Logans? Their ESL
: panels are certainly equal to Quads although IME with
the
: older model MLs the woofer integration was something to
be
: desired :-( BTW when I listen to them they were being
: driven by an Atmasphere Tube amp as well.
:
: I am led to believe the latest offerings from ML have
the
: bugs ironed out. I am yet to hear for myself.
:
: Cheers TT
:
: Hey TT, thanks for the comeback. Hi-end shops are far and
few between where
: I reside.

Believe me I know how you feel. True high end shops are few
and far between everywhere and I have to do a lot of
travelling or visit friends that have the gear.

: If you hear the new MLs, perhaps you can let me know your
: thoughts.

It could be a little while ;-)

I would like to ask you 2 questions: Have you ever
auditioned the
: CLS speakers

I am unfamiliar with the term. Is it a name, brand or type?
Perhaps a link to clarify?

: and what do you think of Maggies,

I have been looking for some to listen to for years and have
just about given up trying :-(

: now that you have a hint of
: my tastes.

Here is something that may intrigue you.

http://tinyurl.com/5tw5b

IMHO ribbon technology matched to good cone drivers is the
way to go. I was very impressed when I heard these and they
combine the ESL uncoloured sound but with cone bass punch.
Also no cabinet resonance problems either ;-)

:
: Cordially,
: west
:
Now you have a hint of my taste ;-) The singularly most
disappointing aspect of any ESL is their lack of bass punch
and very poor SPLs. I do not wish to start any arguments
with anyone here but all I can say is if anyone thinks ESLs
aren't as I describe them then they do not attend live
venues.

Here is another speaker I am very impressed with
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/prd_1p1.html although I
am only familiar with the 1.0 version. Unfortunately these
are a little out of most people's price range ;-) A friend
of mine has owned a set of these for years and I am always
amazed at what they can do.

Again, ribbon hybrid technology ;-)

Cheers TT

TT: I will check out your links. Meanwhile, here's the link you asked about
re Martin Logan's CLS.
The original CLS was considerably less expensive.

west

[west]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Jeßus wrote:

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:50:23 +0800, TT wrote:

I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
now ;-)

Ditto. It seems like all I read about these types of speakers is grief
and pain. I think I'll steer well clear of the buggers now and forever!

I have not finished yet.

I may be able to overcome most of the problems I am encountering.

I am simply letting folks know what troubles they could expect
while building them. If built as well as other renowned ESL
they should perform as well. Just remeber a new pair of Quad ESL
is going to cost $14,000 or some silly amount.
So things could be a lot worse!

Patrick Turner.

Patrick: How and where can you buy a new pair of Quad ELS. Are they like
the original 57s?
BTW: you didn't (not that you have to) answer my query re my 2+2s under west
Subject:: " ER Audio ESL speaker kits." Date: Monday, April 16, 2007
2:46 PM

[TT]

"west" wrote in message
news:dmYUh.2036$xP.1081@trnddc04...
:
: Patrick: How and where can you buy a new pair of Quad
ELS.

http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/ranges.ph...d=3&range_id=8

: Are they like
: the original 57s?

No. The 988 is essentially a 63 and the 989 is a 988 with a
larger bass panel.

Cheers TT

[west]

TT: Sorry I omitted the lick. Here it is:
http://www.avrev.com/news/0702/16.martinlogan.shtml

[TT]

"west" wrote in message
news:GHYUh.2983$nU4.1585@trnddc03...
: TT: Sorry I omitted the lick. Here it is:
: http://www.avrev.com/news/0702/16.martinlogan.shtml
:
:
Thanks, that makes a little more sense.

I came very, very close to buying these
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazin...ganclarity.htm
a few years ago after they were lent to me for about 2
weeks. The lack of bass punch was almost overlooked because
of their mids and highs.

http://www.avrev.com/equip/martinlog...igy/index.html the
same guy had these as well but the bass IMHO was too boomy.
Oh well you can't get it right all the time ;-)

Cheers TT

[Mike Coatham]

TT wrote:
"west" wrote in message
news:dmYUh.2036$xP.1081@trnddc04...
:
: Patrick: How and where can you buy a new pair of Quad
ELS.

http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/ranges.ph...d=3&range_id=8

: Are they like
: the original 57s?

No. The 988 is essentially a 63 and the 989 is a 988 with a
larger bass panel.

Cheers TT

But they (the 988 and 989) are old hat now. What about the latest 2805 and 2905 models? I think these might be the ones PT was
referring to.
See: http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/ranges.ph...f8ce89de454e8d

[[email protected]]

On Apr 17, 11:31 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Jeßus wrote:

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:50:23 +0800, TT wrote:

I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
now ;-)

Ditto. It seems like all I read about these types of speakers is grief
and pain. I think I'll steer well clear of the buggers now and forever!

I have not finished yet.

I may be able to overcome most of the problems I am encountering.

I am simply letting folks know what troubles they could expect
while building them. If built as well as other renowned ESL
they should perform as well. Just remeber a new pair of Quad ESL
is going to cost $14,000 or some silly amount.
So things could be a lot worse!

Patrick Turner.

I have almost bought one of these kits-on several occasions.
With the right amplifier,room,subwoofer and music they can sound
superb.Sometimes I have listened to them and thought they were
fantastic and other times they sounded quite odd.I'm not sure why this
is,but suspect that they take some getting used to.

I really think trying to get decent bass from a bit of very thin Mylar
with minimal excursion is like pushing the proverbial uphill,and that
stats or ribbons are probably best left to cover the area above 200Hz.
My advice is not to judge these untill you have heard them with an
appropriate sub.If you can find an RCF L15/554K 15 inch woofer and put
it in a 100 litre box fed by a subwoofer amp you have a chance of
really enjoying these speakers.I know this makes a huge difference and
is the ONLY sub I have heard that integrates well with them-although
other high sensitivity short excursion pro type woofers might also
work well.

I bought an ERA reconditioning kit for some B&W DM70Cs-but after all
your problems am now really nervous about going ahead with rebuilding
the stat panels in them.

JT