[Patrick Turner]

Take a look at what one maker is doing
to avoid ESL drum effects...

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/tech_dr.htm


The panels by Soundlab are 2,200 sq.ins, or about
equal to 2.5 x ESL57 area, but the area is in one large
panel with many little "cells" .
The bass performance should be pretty good, as with 3 stacked ESL57.

I'd hate to think what the price was for the Soundlab gear.

I think if I was going to make a pair of ESL for my own use
I'd perhaps consider doing the whole lot myself, and avoid the high
price
of a set of kit parts.

To paupers like me kits always seem high priced,
because one always makes someone else rich when you buy one, and
my damned fussy, cantankerous, and questioning mind
always finds deficiencies in kits and the gear in them.

Perforated plastic stator material is easy to source because
a few ppl here in specialist industries have the right gear to drill all
the holes to make it up.
Sign writing firms spend all day drilling and milling plastics.

Plastic bars of various thicknesses can be bought very cheaply and
laminated to make the recessed frames necessary to hold stators and
membrane,
and its all glue-able with polyurethane or epoxy glues.
Quad's ESL57 idea of the 2mm thick plastic stator is good because it
prevents stiction
to some extent. The membrane cannot move closer than 2mm away from the
stator conductive surface.
And because the distance between the conductive coating painted onto
bass stators
and membrane is 4mm, then 6kV EHT is easily sustained.
With such distances, and a 2mm range of possible membrane movement, one
needs a large drive voltage,
and the tranny needs a decent step up ratio, 300:1 like ESL57 seems
fine,
and who better to make them than myself?
Panels can be a lot larger than the ESL57.

But for perforated steel sheet one could get something like....

http://www.mcnichols.com/eCommerce/s...ber=1688002238

I have another plan up my sleeve to prevent stiction in ESL panels.

Just use string.

The ERA stators are like so many being made by ppl in ESL DIY, and are
perforated metal, and a piece of string can be
threaded through the slotted holes and thus provide a little ridge every
20mm along a panel, pulled tight,
thus making it difficult for a membrane to bend down onto a stator after
moving out with a large voltage
applied.

The string can be doped with anti corona varnish so it will never
move, and if I had an uncle, his name would be Bob.

I don't think it'd matter if the string wasn't varnished, just tied
tight would be fine,
its only 150mm across the bass panels, so it could even be applied to
the panel i have already made up.
Polyester builder's line would be OK!

Patrick Turner.

[Iain Churches]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Take a look at what one maker is doing
to avoid ESL drum effects...

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/tech_dr.htm



Thanks for the link. The A-1 caught my eye.
There is no published impedance curve.
Neither is there are price list.

I contacted SoundLab. Let's see what they
say-

Iain

[TT]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Take a look at what one maker is doing
to avoid ESL drum effects...

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/tech_dr.htm

Close but no cigar ;-)

The panels by Soundlab are 2,200 sq.ins, or about
equal to 2.5 x ESL57 area, but the area is in one large
panel with many little "cells" .
The bass performance should be pretty good, as with 3
stacked ESL57.

But it's not! I was singualrly unimpressed when I heard
them. Yes they are ipressive and yes they have excellent
specs but IMHO you should listen to them first and then make
a judgement call.

Now please don't take this the wrong way Patrick but after
reading your graphs, listening to the same speakers you have
been playing with I am of the opinion you really need to get
and listen to more live music. An ESL will not
accoustically reproduce the same SPLs, Dynamics or Timbre of
a live venue at the same listening distance of 3-4m. It
just can't have the same "oomph" as a kick drum or the same
low mellow sound of a double bass. Yes they will reproduce
female vocals better than anything or flutes or violins but
anything else, even a piano, they lack that real live feel,
the bottom end and that initial hard solid hit of sound.

It is so easy for lovers of ESLs to bag everything else as
"disco/rock" type speakers but is just not the case. I have
this question for you and anyone else that cares to answer.
In the case of a kick drum where the original sound emanates
from a membrane that deflects possibly and inch or so how
can an ESL that moves only 1mm hope to reproduce the exact
same dynamic sound? That is a large column of air that
needs to be accelerated and moved. Cone speakers can
struggle to do it properly little alone a sheet of plastic
flapping in the wind ;-) To me it is like trying to move a
bowling ball while waving a feather at it ;-) Why not put a
whopping great electro magnet behind the sucker and just
kick it in the guts?

Mmmmmmm... I appear to have gotten a little carried away
here ;-) All the same these are my genuine opinions and I
do honestly look forward to your comments.


I'd hate to think what the price was for the Soundlab
gear.

It is very, very dear! We start talking anual incomes here
:-(


But for perforated steel sheet one could get something
like....

http://www.mcnichols.com/eCommerce/s...ber=1688002238

Patrick read the specs again "open area = 41%" you would
muffle the sound and get internal reflections. In other
words only 59% of the sound will get out. The last thing an
ESL needs is to have it's overall SPLs reduced even more.

Polyester builder's line would be OK!

How about just chuck the whole thing in a cenment mixer with
a couple bricks and let run for 2 hrs ;-)

Seriously now these are still the the most real sounding and
"honest" speakers I have yet heard http://tinyurl.com/5tw5b
BTW these were in the same house as the Soundlabs that I
listened to. Oh and yes they were played using valve gear as
well. IMHO this design is the way to go and there was a
seamless transition from the two different technologies
used. It is a shame about the price though :-( Maybe when
A$1 = US$3 THEN I will reconsider ;-)

Cheers TT

[Patrick Turner]

TT wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Take a look at what one maker is doing
to avoid ESL drum effects...

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/tech_dr.htm

Close but no cigar ;-)

The panels by Soundlab are 2,200 sq.ins, or about
equal to 2.5 x ESL57 area, but the area is in one large
panel with many little "cells" .
The bass performance should be pretty good, as with 3
stacked ESL57.

But it's not! I was singualrly unimpressed when I heard
them. Yes they are ipressive and yes they have excellent
specs but IMHO you should listen to them first and then make
a judgement call.

I agree to disagree. Can we go for an ale now, or later?

Now please don't take this the wrong way Patrick but after
reading your graphs, listening to the same speakers you have
been playing with I am of the opinion you really need to get
and listen to more live music. An ESL will not
accoustically reproduce the same SPLs, Dynamics or Timbre of
a live venue at the same listening distance of 3-4m.

Depends what you mean by a live concert.
Lets remove all electronics from the hall for starters.
Live enough fo you?

I wouldn't want to sit 3.5M away froman orchestra.
I don't have masochistic tendencies.

I'm chicken. I'll go sit 20 metres away, and hope a big audience
turns up to absorb excess HF.

It
just can't have the same "oomph" as a kick drum or the same
low mellow sound of a double bass.

Strange, its the exact opposite of what ppl say about stacked ESL57.

Yes they will reproduce
female vocals better than anything or flutes or violins but
anything else, even a piano, they lack that real live feel,
the bottom end and that initial hard solid hit of sound.

Im comparing comparing A-B-C.
There is ESL57, one unrestored 40 yr old sample,
ERA-IIIB, under incremental improvement by applied wisdoms,
and Turner Audio Sublimes, outstanding established reference speakers at
least
equal to the best dynamics.

My final impressions await firming up, but piano
sounds OK, and as good as the recording allows.
I have not a copy of Ashkenazy close at hand to try, but may dig one out
laying around somewhere
here...

I am sharing the process to teach ppl about the questioning process,
and to teach that they should not be certain until all questions are
aswered,
and if they are never answered, then they have to be comfortable about
the
uncertainty.





It is so easy for lovers of ESLs to bag everything else as
"disco/rock" type speakers but is just not the case. I have
this question for you and anyone else that cares to answer.
In the case of a kick drum where the original sound emanates
from a membrane that deflects possibly and inch or so how
can an ESL that moves only 1mm hope to reproduce the exact
same dynamic sound?

Because the SPL falls proportionately to the square of the distance.
At 1 metre, the peak SPL from a good drum when hit by a furious rock
star
with that lean and silly look will be terribly high.
At 10 metres, the intensity of sound is 100 times less.

So its easy to reproduce a drum beat we hear 10 metres from the drummer.

But the up close drum beat would need 6 x 12" bass drivers and 3,000
watts.



That is a large column of air that
needs to be accelerated and moved. Cone speakers can
struggle to do it properly little alone a sheet of plastic
flapping in the wind ;-)

ESL do not "flap in the wind"

The area of the radiating membrane at say 50Hz can be huge, and much
greater than
a single dynamic woofer, so the travel need not be great.

Take the Sondlab speakers. 2,200 sq.ins. A 12" woofer is only about 80
sq.ins.

To me it is like trying to move a
bowling ball while waving a feather at it ;-) Why not put a
whopping great electro magnet behind the sucker and just
kick it in the guts?

You'd have a Magquadastic TT speaker.

When are you going to file your patent?

For suction, guts, and kick, have you figured out pipes, intestinals,
and boot sizes?

Mmmmmmm... I appear to have gotten a little carried away
here ;-) All the same these are my genuine opinions and I
do honestly look forward to your comments.

Phew, glad you said they were opinions, for a second I thought
you were serious....


I'd hate to think what the price was for the Soundlab
gear.

It is very, very dear! We start talking anual incomes here
:-(

Indeed. The more I learn and more expeienced I become,
the more I see how I could avoid the price.....


But for perforated steel sheet one could get something
like....

http://www.mcnichols.com/eCommerce/s...ber=1688002238

Patrick read the specs again "open area = 41%" you would
muffle the sound and get internal reflections. In other
words only 59% of the sound will get out. The last thing an
ESL needs is to have it's overall SPLs reduced even more.

Polyester builder's line would be OK!

How about just chuck the whole thing in a cenment mixer with
a couple bricks and let run for 2 hrs ;-)



Seriously now these are still the the most real sounding and
"honest" speakers I have yet heard http://tinyurl.com/5tw5b

They look impressive, and could deafen a crowd of a thousand easily.

Maybe they sound nice at 81db average. Who knows.

BTW these were in the same house as the Soundlabs that I
listened to. Oh and yes they were played using valve gear as
well. IMHO this design is the way to go and there was a
seamless transition from the two different technologies
used. It is a shame about the price though :-( Maybe when
A$1 = US$3 THEN I will reconsider ;-)

ESL are never going to win a medal for being able to
produce extreme high SPLs. But many believe they do a superior
job at realistic levels in the home which won't turn other members of
the household
deaf, nor make the cat and dog become neurotic.

In the 18th century, the harpsicord was the jangly tangly instrument
much loved by
the wealthy at dinner parties it was the electric guitar of the era.
Ever heard one?
its a very tame instrument. Very low SPL.
Recorders, flutes, violins, guitars and orchestras full of them don't
need any amplifiers
and it doesn't take much to make the same SPL as you'd get from a decent
theatre seat.

Rock concerts are about entirely sensual pumped uppedness.
Noise presented as music.

Great for awhile when you are young.
Levels make the chest heave at each drum beat, and you cannot hear
yourself think,
and you cannot talk to anyone, you have to scream your head off.
Its entirely un-social and not at all convivial to me.
There, I am a boring old fart, but its always been like this.
I have been to a few rock gigs and pub gigs, and wondered WTF I went
afterwards.

I hate all that crap.

Nearly everywhere I go in cafes and pubs ( rarely ), there's that ****ty
boom chicka boom rubbish.
The wanna have you come in, shut up, drink up, eat up, then pay up and
get out.

I love quiet restaurants. But they put hard chairs in them, have no room
treatments,
then they have loud pop crappity music, and after 3 drinks ppl are all
yelling at each other. YUK!

As I have said 1,000 times, I don't need high powered systems, but I
just like adequate systems for the reproduction of music from
un-amplified acoustic instruments
as I would experience them in a live venue, sitting away from them to
avoid the blast
factor, and to get the best impact of the whole band of musicians and
performers.

A trained opera singer can fill a big hall with his or her voice alone.
It takes little to reproduce the effect.

So the Glacier speakers you refer me to will never appeal to me because
the
expenditure is at least 20dB more than for what i need.
If you just cut the top 450mm off the Glaciers with a saw, that's all i
need.

If I spend an evening listening to a few tracks with friends, more than
a watt
average per channel is very rare. Its always been like this, for the
last 55 years
that I have been exposed to domestic sound reproduction.

The ESL I am constucting now are not able to do extremely loud levels,
and I doubt
they were ever meant to; it would be nice to optimise them without
risking reliablity, and then my job is done, and they are a usable and
desirable addition
to a cultured man's accoutrements of life.
In future I may build a pair of ESL, rather than spend a kings ransom on
a new pair, because
as the secrets and mystique are replaced by hard nosed understanding.

I should get excellent results as i do in other areas of audio gear
just like any other very keen person willing to put the hours in.

I know you are busy giving your opinions to all about audio, but are you
building anything
interesting at present?

Patrick Turner.





Cheers TT

[David[_4_]]

Hello RATS,

First of all thanks for this thread on ESL's. I know it is a little
off topic, but at least it deals with sound, electronics and or
electromechanics and not... well you know...

My limited experience with ESL's is with a pair of Model 2.1 panels
from Russ Knotts at
http://www.justrealmusic.com/content/model-2_111.htm. I got them off
e-bay for less than the price of materials to build similar panels
which I had been planning to do. I have been happy with their sound
with the realization that many improvements needed to be made.

I was using a pair of KEF Calinda's sans the T27's for the low end.
That is a B200 with a BD139 passive radiators in Calinda cabinets. The
plan was to make a cabinet similar to the Innersound ESL's with sides
to reduce LF cancelation with a TL for the dynamic driver and add a
sub.

The power supply, transformers and crossover parts are cobbled
together in what I would call a kit for a work in progress. I replaced
crossover components with better quality parts and was running them in
a simple frame just to check them out. They worked will with an ARC
D76A ( here is the tube relationship!!!) with plenty of volume. I
really didn't feel the need for more. I'm a musical instrument maker
and have some experience with live recording. I do like to push limits
of volume at times and "rock" or "rap" out. Granted, my listening
space is not large (~16x30 ft.) but my ears would bleed if I really
pushed them...

I should mention I have owned a pair of Maggie MG I's and enjoyed
them, so I'm familiar with dealing with dipoles. I have a friend who
has a pair of Martin Logan CLS's and totally blame him for my journey
into planar speakers.....

A little urchin came into our family and I had to put high voltages
away for the time being... I am now running speakers which consist of
Accuton drivers in the HF and Mid with a Cabasse 7" and NHT 1259 sub.
The Accuton's are really good but I attenuated the HF a little for my
taste.

The most recent payback is the little 2.5 year old tyke knows who
Diszy Gillespie is and what he plays...

I hope this adds something to this thread. At least it is not... well,
you know...

Cheers,

David

[TT]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


TT wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in
message
...

Take a look at what one maker is doing
to avoid ESL drum effects...

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/tech_dr.htm

Close but no cigar ;-)

The panels by Soundlab are 2,200 sq.ins, or about
equal to 2.5 x ESL57 area, but the area is in one large
panel with many little "cells" .
The bass performance should be pretty good, as with 3
stacked ESL57.

But it's not! I was singualrly unimpressed when I heard
them. Yes they are ipressive and yes they have excellent
specs but IMHO you should listen to them first and then
make
a judgement call.

I agree to disagree. Can we go for an ale now, or later?

Oh Patrick I believe a fine aged Merlot or Cab/Sav while
listening to live 4 piece jazz ensemble with a jutsy jazz
female singer would be better :-) Un-amplified, in dark
and dingy little tavern some where we thrash out the pros
cons of this would be excellent :-) Under those condotions
I wouldn't even mind conceding the "argument". ;-)


Now please don't take this the wrong way Patrick but
after
reading your graphs, listening to the same speakers you
have
been playing with I am of the opinion you really need to
get
and listen to more live music. An ESL will not
accoustically reproduce the same SPLs, Dynamics or Timbre
of
a live venue at the same listening distance of 3-4m.

Depends what you mean by a live concert.
Lets remove all electronics from the hall for starters.
Live enough fo you?

Yep. But please don't remove the "nectre of the Gods". ;-)

I wouldn't want to sit 3.5M away froman orchestra.
I don't have masochistic tendencies.

I'm chicken. I'll go sit 20 metres away, and hope a big
audience
turns up to absorb excess HF.

It
just can't have the same "oomph" as a kick drum or the
same
low mellow sound of a double bass.

Strange, its the exact opposite of what ppl say about
stacked ESL57.

Yes they will reproduce
female vocals better than anything or flutes or violins
but
anything else, even a piano, they lack that real live
feel,
the bottom end and that initial hard solid hit of sound.

Im comparing comparing A-B-C.
There is ESL57, one unrestored 40 yr old sample,
ERA-IIIB, under incremental improvement by applied
wisdoms,
and Turner Audio Sublimes, outstanding established
reference speakers at
least
equal to the best dynamics.

My final impressions await firming up, but piano
sounds OK, and as good as the recording allows.
I have not a copy of Ashkenazy close at hand to try, but
may dig one out
laying around somewhere
here...

I am sharing the process to teach ppl about the
questioning process,
and to teach that they should not be certain until all
questions are
aswered,
and if they are never answered, then they have to be
comfortable about
the
uncertainty.





It is so easy for lovers of ESLs to bag everything else
as
"disco/rock" type speakers but is just not the case. I
have
this question for you and anyone else that cares to
answer.
In the case of a kick drum where the original sound
emanates
from a membrane that deflects possibly and inch or so how
can an ESL that moves only 1mm hope to reproduce the
exact
same dynamic sound?

Because the SPL falls proportionately to the square of the
distance.
At 1 metre, the peak SPL from a good drum when hit by a
furious rock
star
with that lean and silly look will be terribly high.
At 10 metres, the intensity of sound is 100 times less.

So its easy to reproduce a drum beat we hear 10 metres
from the drummer.

But the up close drum beat would need 6 x 12" bass drivers
and 3,000
watts.



That is a large column of air that
needs to be accelerated and moved. Cone speakers can
struggle to do it properly little alone a sheet of
plastic
flapping in the wind ;-)

ESL do not "flap in the wind"

Yes I know, they stick to the stators instead ! Boom! Boom!
;-)


The area of the radiating membrane at say 50Hz can be
huge, and much
greater than
a single dynamic woofer, so the travel need not be great.

Take the Sondlab speakers. 2,200 sq.ins. A 12" woofer is
only about 80
sq.ins.

To me it is like trying to move a
bowling ball while waving a feather at it ;-) Why not
put a
whopping great electro magnet behind the sucker and just
kick it in the guts?

You'd have a Magquadastic TT speaker.

When are you going to file your patent?

For suction, guts, and kick, have you figured out pipes,
intestinals,
and boot sizes?

Mmmmmmm... I appear to have gotten a little carried away
here ;-) All the same these are my genuine opinions and
I
do honestly look forward to your comments.

Phew, glad you said they were opinions, for a second I
thought
you were serious....

Awwww...... Shucks....... I can have serious opinions you
know? :-)


I'd hate to think what the price was for the Soundlab
gear.

It is very, very dear! We start talking anual incomes
here
:-(

Indeed. The more I learn and more expeienced I become,
the more I see how I could avoid the price.....

Alas ...... For those out there less adept and competent ay
construction there is little choice :-(


But for perforated steel sheet one could get something
like....

http://www.mcnichols.com/eCommerce/s...ber=1688002238

Patrick read the specs again "open area = 41%" you would
muffle the sound and get internal reflections. In other
words only 59% of the sound will get out. The last thing
an
ESL needs is to have it's overall SPLs reduced even more.

Polyester builder's line would be OK!

How about just chuck the whole thing in a cenment mixer
with
a couple bricks and let run for 2 hrs ;-)



Seriously now these are still the the most real sounding
and
"honest" speakers I have yet heard
http://tinyurl.com/5tw5b

They look impressive, and could deafen a crowd of a
thousand easily.

Maybe they sound nice at 81db average. Who knows.

I know! ;-) Have listen and make up your own mind? Perhaps
you will be pleasantly surprised.

BTW these were in the same house as the Soundlabs that I
listened to. Oh and yes they were played using valve gear
as
well. IMHO this design is the way to go and there was a
seamless transition from the two different technologies
used. It is a shame about the price though :-( Maybe
when
A$1 = US$3 THEN I will reconsider ;-)

ESL are never going to win a medal for being able to
produce extreme high SPLs. But many believe

Another Urban Myth eh? ;-)

they do a superior
job at realistic levels in the home which won't turn other
members of
the household
deaf, nor make the cat and dog become neurotic.

Mmmmmmmmm......... We have neurotic Cat already! It
actually likes acoustic folk but hates rock/symphony!

In the 18th century, the harpsicord was the jangly tangly
instrument
much loved by
the wealthy at dinner parties it was the electric guitar
of the era.
Ever heard one?
its a very tame instrument. Very low SPL.
Recorders, flutes, violins, guitars and orchestras full of
them don't
need any amplifiers
and it doesn't take much to make the same SPL as you'd get
from a decent
theatre seat.

Rock concerts are about entirely sensual pumped uppedness.
Noise presented as music.

I have heard the odd symphony that I can say that about as
well. Bad engineering is still that!


Great for awhile when you are young.
Levels make the chest heave at each drum beat, and you
cannot hear
yourself think,
and you cannot talk to anyone, you have to scream your
head off.
Its entirely un-social and not at all convivial to me.
There, I am a boring old fart, but its always been like
this.
I have been to a few rock gigs and pub gigs, and wondered
WTF I went
afterwards.

I hate all that crap.

Reminds me of many years ago (over 30) where my wife and I
listened to "Sweet" play at the Herdsman pub (in Perth WA)
and it was too loud inside so we went into the car park. At
least then it was acceptable SPLs with less distortion
Yeah, at 100m through double brick walls! My ears were
ringing for week after!


Nearly everywhere I go in cafes and pubs ( rarely ),
there's that ****ty
boom chicka boom rubbish.
The wanna have you come in, shut up, drink up, eat up,
then pay up and
get out.

I love quiet restaurants. But they put hard chairs in
them, have no room
treatments,
then they have loud pop crappity music, and after 3 drinks
ppl are all
yelling at each other. YUK!

As I have said 1,000 times, I don't need high powered
systems, but I
just like adequate systems for the reproduction of music
from
un-amplified acoustic instruments
as I would experience them in a live venue, sitting away
from them to
avoid the blast
factor, and to get the best impact of the whole band of
musicians and
performers.

I agree whole heartedly here.


A trained opera singer can fill a big hall with his or her
voice alone.
It takes little to reproduce the effect.

Except the acoustically decent room to start with ;-)


So the Glacier speakers you refer me to will never appeal
to me because
the
expenditure is at least 20dB more than for what i need.
If you just cut the top 450mm off the Glaciers with a saw,
that's all i
need.

OK that is fine. Horses for courses. Some people out here
prefer to reproduce a live sounding performance in their
sound room. There are some that even prefer headphones.
Queue Paul Packer ;-)


If I spend an evening listening to a few tracks with
friends, more than
a watt
average per channel is very rare. Its always been like
this, for the
last 55 years
that I have been exposed to domestic sound reproduction.

The ESL I am constucting now are not able to do extremely
loud levels,
and I doubt
they were ever meant to; it would be nice to optimise them
without
risking reliablity, and then my job is done, and they are
a usable and
desirable addition
to a cultured man's accoutrements of life.
In future I may build a pair of ESL, rather than spend a
kings ransom on
a new pair, because
as the secrets and mystique are replaced by hard nosed
understanding.

Yep, I went out and bought some good speakers as well ;-)
Hint. Hint! They weren't ESLs ;-)

I should get excellent results as i do in other areas of
audio gear
just like any other very keen person willing to put the
hours in.

I'm sorry to say, I can't at this point in my life "put the
hours in".

I know you are busy giving your opinions to all about
audio, but are you
building anything
interesting at present?

Ahhhhhh........ A person more cynical than me would
interpret this mean "Since you can't build something then
your opinion is not worth anything". But since I know you
are a genuine person who is interested in others exploits I
shall answer with, yes, I am attempting to build a turntable
tone arm to suit a Technics SL1200 and am in the process of
adapting a tangential arm to suit as well. Why? Because
until we get super high sampling frequencies and bit depth
in digital, analog still sounds the best. Also since I ma
nor bogged down with pre-conceived ideas i am free to listen
to any system and make a objective appraisal about how it
sounds compared to what I have heard live. That is - what's
real! Dynamic for dynamic, SPL for SPL and woofy, flappy,
half hearted ESL bass just does not cut it with me - full
stop!

http://tinyurl.com/2quya7

When you can put this CD on and have it sound like the
performers are in the same room as you then get back to me
about ESLs! BTW you will need a half decent DAC as well and
that is something you can't build either ;-)

Cheers TT

[Patrick Turner]

But it's not! I was singualrly unimpressed when I heard
them. Yes they are ipressive and yes they have excellent
specs but IMHO you should listen to them first and then
make
a judgement call.

I agree to disagree. Can we go for an ale now, or later?

Oh Patrick I believe a fine aged Merlot or Cab/Sav while
listening to live 4 piece jazz ensemble with a jutsy jazz
female singer would be better :-) Un-amplified, in dark
and dingy little tavern some where we thrash out the pros
cons of this would be excellent :-) Under those condotions
I wouldn't even mind conceding the "argument". ;-)



Cone speakers can
struggle to do it properly little alone a sheet of
plastic
flapping in the wind ;-)

ESL do not "flap in the wind"

Yes I know, they stick to the stators instead ! Boom! Boom!
;-)

There is little bass boom boom when stuck, the HF is OK,
but limited.

Quad ESL don't suffer stiction; they got it all sussed out.



I should get excellent results as i do in other areas of
audio gear
just like any other very keen person willing to put the
hours in.

I'm sorry to say, I can't at this point in my life "put the
hours in".

I know you are busy giving your opinions to all about
audio, but are you
building anything
interesting at present?

Ahhhhhh........ A person more cynical than me would
interpret this mean "Since you can't build something then
your opinion is not worth anything". But since I know you
are a genuine person who is interested in others exploits I
shall answer with, yes, I am attempting to build a turntable
tone arm to suit a Technics SL1200 and am in the process of
adapting a tangential arm to suit as well. Why? Because
until we get super high sampling frequencies and bit depth
in digital, analog still sounds the best.

I often prefer vinyl.
When its good, its fabuluous, and just fun when it ain't.

Also since I ma
nor bogged down with pre-conceived ideas i am free to listen
to any system and make a objective appraisal about how it
sounds compared to what I have heard live. That is - what's
real! Dynamic for dynamic, SPL for SPL and woofy, flappy,
half hearted ESL bass just does not cut it with me - full
stop!

http://tinyurl.com/2quya7

When you can put this CD on and have it sound like the
performers are in the same room as you then get back to me
about ESLs! BTW you will need a half decent DAC as well and
that is something you can't build either ;-)

I sure can't do every darn thing doable.

Patrick Turner.

Cheers TT