Why all the despair? Americans & Europeans have partaken in more
pleasure and abundance than any other generation before them, yet all I
seem to hear coming out of the record industry is anger, despair and
sexual content that nobody in their right mind would approve of if it
were the way their mother's would have conceived them! Queen,
Aerosmith, the Beatles all had a diverse messages. Queen wrote "Dead
On Time" and "Love Of My Life". The Beatles, wrote "Revolution" and
"The Long And Winding Road". Aerosmith wrote "Back In The Saddle
Again" and "Dreamweaver". All these groups were capable of playing a
plethora of styles and capable of transforming all the human emotion
healthy individuals experience into an artful arrangement and
performing them.

African American artists such as Louie Armstrong, Duke Ellington, BB
King, Miles Davis, and the entire Motown era gave the universe some of
the most virtuous music mankind has ever experienced, before there was
any such thing as a civil right and in the mist of the civil rights
movement. Now, most all the music coming from African Americans after
their struggle, is ugly. If I didn't know better from my personal
experience, I would thing every black male was a pimp and or a
gangster, and every black female a whore. As an artist of 25 years, I
feel ripped off! In fact, I doubt that even 5% of so called "black
artist" nowadays are even musicians. Poets of hate, sex and racism
would better describe what's been coming out of the record industry of
late!

It's my contention that America & Europe have become idol cultures.
Piercing, self-mutilation, the tattoo, whore, bitch and hate seem to be
the theme of it all! I'm sure if you're an artist, you have got to be
troubled by it all; knowing that slaves used hymns to communicate, Folk
artists in the former Soviet Union used their art to bring down the
wall. And, classical composers inspired by God, proved to the whole
world that music can speak to the souls of men 400 years after being
composed and, that the counter fit wanna-bees need not apply! The sad
truth is, today's musicians are to music what stick people are to fine
art! Not all, but almost every one of them!

If this message rubs you the wrong way, it's because you've probably
just been exposed! If you agree, it's probably because you're not
being exposed, because they (the music industry) can feed the children
of fools and the pee-pee culture manure, and they'll happily eat and
enjoy it, because they've never tasted filet mignon! Or, if you were
brought up torturing cats on Friday night, you won't be offended when
someone kills a cat! The same goes with the "music" we've allowed
ourselves to be exposed to!

"SongCzar" wrote ...
Why all the despair? Americans & Europeans have partaken in more
pleasure and abundance than any other generation before them, yet all
I
seem to hear coming out of the record industry is anger, despair and
sexual content that nobody in their right mind would approve of if it
were the way their mother's would have conceived them! ...

There are several philosophical and sociological (as well as religious)
explanations. Many of them seem quite plausible, particularly to those
who haven't been "exposed" as you describe it.

"SongCzar" wrote in message

Why all the despair? Americans & Europeans have partaken in more
pleasure and abundance than any other generation before them,

Could it be because pursuing a life where pleasure and abundance is the sole
focus leaves one unfulfilled and promotes despair?

Taylor

On 1 Jan 2005 15:39:08 -0800, "SongCzar"
wrote:

Why all the despair? Americans & Europeans have partaken in more
pleasure and abundance than any other generation before them,

and they see it all coming to an end, mostly due to human stupidity.
They are sad, angry and confused. The most positive outcome that many
children of affluence can imagine is an end to humanity, bringing with
it an end to human stupidity.

And what about the children of poverty in the midst of affluence?
Well, they're not gonna be all sweetness and light, either, are they?
Their anger is out front, totally in your face. They WANT your
pleasure and abundance, SongCzar. They want THEIR revolution, and they
don't care how. In fact, they would prefer to have it over your dead
body.

If this message rubs you the wrong way, it's because you've probably
just been exposed! If you agree, it's probably because you're not
being exposed, because they (the music industry) can feed the children
of fools and the pee-pee culture manure, and they'll happily eat and
enjoy it, because they've never tasted filet mignon!

Quite literally true! They think that a MacDonalds Whopper (trademark
registered) is a meal. Ironic that it's also a colloquial expression
meaning "a big lie".

To quote from Bertolt Brecht's Threepenny Opera: "You must live well
to know what living is."

It should not be a total shock to hear that those who don't eat well
are spewing back the **** they've ingested, as music.

So I agree with you that US popular music is filled with anger
(urban/hip-hop) and despair (post-punk, emo, whatever). And I agree
about the reasons for it. They've been fed ****, and they're
regurgitating it.

Mike T.

"SongCzar" wrote in message
oups.com...
Why all the despair?

The same reasons most of today's newscasts sound like the National Enquirer!

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com

"Mike T." wrote in message
...

If this message rubs you the wrong way, it's because you've probably
just been exposed! If you agree, it's probably because you're not
being exposed, because they (the music industry) can feed the children
of fools and the pee-pee culture manure, and they'll happily eat and
enjoy it, because they've never tasted filet mignon!

Quite literally true! They think that a MacDonalds Whopper (trademark
registered) is a meal. Ironic that it's also a colloquial expression
meaning "a big lie".

Not to change the subject or anything, but Whopper is a registered trademark
of Burger King, not McDonald's.

Okay, back to the angst.

Peace,
Paul

Why all the despair?

I think back in the 60's and 70's people thought they could actually
effect change, and have some sort of independant existence through
their own design.

Nowadays it is a corporate design with few other options. World
population is bursting at the seams, leading to degragation of the
environment. There are a lot of challenges to be sure, and a lot of
reason for depair.

There is also the hope of the human spirit...let's hang on to that, and
ask for God's grace, whatever your religion or belief.

Why all the despair?

I think back in the 60's and 70's people thought they could actually
effect change, and have some sort of independant existence through
their own design.

Nowadays it is a corporate design with few other options. World
population is bursting at the seams, leading to degragation of the
environment. There are a lot of challenges to be sure, and a lot of
reason for depair.

There is also the hope of the human spirit...let's hang on to that, and
ask for God's grace, whatever your religion or belief.

"Oh... gloom, despair, and agony on me...."
- Junior Samples


"Bob Olhsson" wrote in message ...
"SongCzar" wrote in message
oups.com...
Why all the despair?

The same reasons most of today's newscasts sound like the National Enquirer!

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com

"Oh... gloom, despair, and agony on me...."
- Junior Samples


"Bob Olhsson" wrote in message
...
"SongCzar" wrote in message
oups.com...
Why all the despair?

The same reasons most of today's newscasts sound like the National
Enquirer!

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com



Poor, poor, pitiful me.--Warren Zevon
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:20:38 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

Not to change the subject or anything, but Whopper is a registered trademark
of Burger King, not McDonald's.

Oops! Thanks, Paul. And I thought I was being so eloquent ...
I guess I should reacquaint myself with the world of American Fast
Food ... maybe by watching TV.

Long Live Slow Food!
Happy New Year.
Mike T.

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:20:38 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

"Mike T." wrote in message
.. .

If this message rubs you the wrong way, it's because you've probably
just been exposed! If you agree, it's probably because you're not
being exposed, because they (the music industry) can feed the children
of fools and the pee-pee culture manure, and they'll happily eat and
enjoy it, because they've never tasted filet mignon!

Quite literally true! They think that a MacDonalds Whopper (trademark
registered) is a meal. Ironic that it's also a colloquial expression
meaning "a big lie".

Not to change the subject or anything, but Whopper is a registered trademark
of Burger King, not McDonald's.

Furthermore, there's another um, slight error he

were the way their mother's would have conceived them! Queen,
Aerosmith, the Beatles all had a diverse messages. Queen wrote "Dead
On Time" and "Love Of My Life". The Beatles, wrote "Revolution" and
"The Long And Winding Road". Aerosmith wrote "Back In The Saddle
Again" and "Dreamweaver". All these groups were capable of playing a
plethora of styles and capable of transforming all the human emotion
healthy individuals experience into an artful arrangement and
performing them.

Aerosmith didn't write nor perform (AFAIK - I haven't kept up with
Aerosmith) "Dreamweaver." Perhaps you're thinking of Aerosmith's
"Dream On," or the Gary Wright song "Dream Weaver."

Hope this doesn't cause you to change your views or argument.

Okay, back to the angst.

Peace,
Paul

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

Paul Stamler wrote:


Not to change the subject or anything, but Whopper is a registered trademark
of Burger King, not McDonald's.

Good catch.


Okay, back to the angst.

hahahaha

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 15:54:05 GMT, Mike T. wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:20:38 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

Not to change the subject or anything, but Whopper is a registered trademark
of Burger King, not McDonald's.

Oops! Thanks, Paul. And I thought I was being so eloquent ...
I guess I should reacquaint myself with the world of American Fast
Food ... maybe by watching TV.

Oops, somehow I missed the attributions and cascades. I thought
Paul was correcting the OP, and that I was correcting the same person.
There were indeed two errors here, but they were made by two separate
posters. I suppose my last post makes it three errors by three
posters.
Excuse me while I get another cup of coffee.

Long Live Slow Food!
Happy New Year.
Mike T.

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

"Mike T." wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:20:38 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

Not to change the subject or anything, but Whopper is a registered
trademark
of Burger King, not McDonald's.

Oops! Thanks, Paul. And I thought I was being so eloquent ...
I guess I should reacquaint myself with the world of American Fast
Food ... maybe by watching TV.

Believe me, that's the safest way.

Peace,
Paul

Mike T. wrote:

I guess I should reacquaint myself with the world of American Fast
Food ... maybe by watching TV.

Try http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002OXVBO/ if you're serious.

I think back in the 60's and 70's people thought they could actually effect
change, and have some sort of independant existence through their own
design.

We did...........for a little while. After that, everyone went to law
school.

World population is bursting at the seams, leading to degragation of the
environment.

This is pretty much the bottom line, IMHO. Everyone wants to live forever.
Everyone wants everyone else to live forever too.

"db" wrote in message
oups.com...
Why all the despair?

I think back in the 60's and 70's people thought they could actually
effect change, and have some sort of independant existence through
their own design.

Nowadays it is a corporate design with few other options. World
population is bursting at the seams, leading to degragation of the
environment. There are a lot of challenges to be sure, and a lot of
reason for depair.

There is also the hope of the human spirit...let's hang on to that, and
ask for God's grace, whatever your religion or belief.

Mike T.


wrote:

Why all the despair? Americans & Europeans have partaken in more
pleasure and abundance than any other generation before them,

and they see it all coming to an end, mostly due to human stupidity.
They are sad, angry and confused.

Teenaged angst? Because material prosperity alone can't fill up that empty
space inside? Naah.

Must be Clearchannel.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Audio Guy / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Mike T.: They've been fed ****, and they're
regurgitating it.

Well, I, for one, made the decision a number of years ago, that no artistic
creation of mine would create further chaos in the world. It's a one-to-one
commitment and I would hope that other musicians and songwriters would consider
it. Or maybe you just view yourself as a reflection of society, like a mirror?
To my mind that's a bit like being a leaf in the wind. And I'm not sure that
there is any legitimate time to throw **** in people's faces. If you really
have a point to make, I think this is the perfect time to figure out a new way
to say it without making everyone feel bad about themselves and everything. It
is interesting to note that during the great Depression, the blues instantly
went out of vogue. It was no longer the helpful thing.

So I agree with you that US popular music is filled with anger
(urban/hip-hop) and despair (post-punk, emo, whatever). And I agree
about the reasons for it. They've been fed ****, and they're
regurgitating it.


I see it as many taking personally that which they can do nothing about...and
blaming others for what they can...whichever is convenient at the moment.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

So I agree with you that US popular music is filled with anger
(urban/hip-hop) and despair (post-punk, emo, whatever). And I agree
about the reasons for it. They've been fed ****, and they're
regurgitating it.


I see it as many taking personally that which they can do nothing about...and
blaming others for what they can...whichever is convenient at the moment.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

On 02 Jan 2005 18:06:29 GMT, ospam (WillStG) wrote:

Teenaged angst? Because material prosperity alone can't fill up that empty
space inside? Naah.

Must be Clearchannel. snip

Watching Faux Nooz for any length of time will give ANYONE despair!

dB

On 1 Jan 2005 15:39:08 -0800, "SongCzar"
wrote:

African American artists such as Louie Armstrong, Duke Ellington, BB
King, Miles Davis, and the entire Motown era gave the universe some of
the most virtuous music mankind has ever experienced, before there was
any such thing as a civil right and in the mist of the civil rights
movement. Now, most all the music coming from African Americans after
their struggle, is ugly.

Duh... maybe because there has been little improvement for many
African Americans...?

If I didn't know better from my personal
experience, I would thing every black male was a pimp and or a
gangster, and every black female a whore. As an artist of 25 years, I
feel ripped off! In fact, I doubt that even 5% of so called "black
artist" nowadays are even musicians. Poets of hate, sex and racism
would better describe what's been coming out of the record industry of
late!

It's my contention that America & Europe have become idol cultures.
Piercing, self-mutilation, the tattoo, whore, bitch and hate seem to be
the theme of it all! I'm sure if you're an artist, you have got to be
troubled by it all; knowing that slaves used hymns to communicate, Folk
artists in the former Soviet Union used their art to bring down the
wall. And, classical composers inspired by God, proved to the whole
world that music can speak to the souls of men 400 years after being
composed and, that the counter fit wanna-bees need not apply! The sad
truth is, today's musicians are to music what stick people are to fine
art! Not all, but almost every one of them!

If this message rubs you the wrong way, it's because you've probably
just been exposed! If you agree, it's probably because you're not
being exposed, because they (the music industry) can feed the children
of fools and the pee-pee culture manure, and they'll happily eat and
enjoy it, because they've never tasted filet mignon! Or, if you were
brought up torturing cats on Friday night, you won't be offended when
someone kills a cat! The same goes with the "music" we've allowed
ourselves to be exposed to!

You are showing your age. Rock n roll has always aimed to shock the
elders. It just takes more to shock us now that when Little Richard
sang "Tutti Frutti".

Times change... we are not in the happiest of times in the USA. The
gap between rich and poor is the largest it's been in two generations
and continues to grow. A lot of young people feel like they don't
have much of a future... what do you expect, people to write songs
about putting flowers in their hair?

Al

On 02 Jan 2005 19:37:18 GMT, (Jim Kollens) wrote:

Mike T.: They've been fed ****, and they're
regurgitating it.

Well, I, for one, made the decision a number of years ago, that no artistic
creation of mine would create further chaos in the world. It's a one-to-one
commitment and I would hope that other musicians and songwriters would consider
it. Or maybe you just view yourself as a reflection of society, like a mirror?
To my mind that's a bit like being a leaf in the wind. And I'm not sure that
there is any legitimate time to throw **** in people's faces.

It is often done as a reaction against complacency... it's a part of
rock n roll. Some times I like pretty music, sometimes I like to hear
****ed-off music. Some days you want Bobby McFerrin, some days you
want the Sex Pistols.

If you really
have a point to make, I think this is the perfect time to figure out a new way
to say it without making everyone feel bad about themselves and everything. It
is interesting to note that during the great Depression, the blues instantly
went out of vogue.

Sorry but this is totally erroneous. At the time of the great
depression, the sale of "race records" aimed at the black market fell
not because the music wasn't popular but because most people could not
afford to buy records and record players. Blues was huge in the 30s,
right up thru the late 50s. What do you think black people were
listening to at that time? Not everyone was into the uptown sounds of
Cab Calloway and Louis Armstrong.

It was no longer the helpful thing.

Interesting theory.

Al

"playon" wrote in message
...

Times change... we are not in the happiest of times in the USA. The
gap between rich and poor is the largest it's been in two generations
and continues to grow. A lot of young people feel like they don't
have much of a future... what do you expect, people to write songs
about putting flowers in their hair?

Well, *that* song was written in 1967, when the Viet Nam war was raging and
the ghettos were burning.

Peace,
Paul

On 1 Jan 2005 15:39:08 -0800, SongCzar wrote:
Why all the despair? Americans & Europeans have partaken in more
pleasure and abundance than any other generation before them, yet all I
seem to hear coming out of the record industry is anger, despair and
sexual content that nobody in their right mind would approve of if it
were the way their mother's would have conceived them!

Um . . right.

There used to be a guy on the 1-2-3-9 platform at Times Square, Uptown
side, usually near the north end.

Slightly older than Moses, playing the blues on an old semi-hollow body,
and often sufficiently pickled that one rather suspects he's there
yet--no rot could survive all that preservative.

Sang the Blues. Been singing the Blues for a thousand years, probably
keep playing a thousand more.

I doubt hearing him sing "Good Ship Lollypop" would be quite the same.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 08:11:57 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

"playon" wrote in message
.. .

Times change... we are not in the happiest of times in the USA. The
gap between rich and poor is the largest it's been in two generations
and continues to grow. A lot of young people feel like they don't
have much of a future... what do you expect, people to write songs
about putting flowers in their hair?

Well, *that* song was written in 1967, when the Viet Nam war was raging and
the ghettos were burning.

That is correct, however compare to the present time, America was then
at it's peak standard of living, and there was a lot more optimism
before the cynicism of Watergate, etc took hold.

Al

Times change... we are not in the happiest of times in the USA. The
gap between rich and poor is the largest it's been in two generations
and continues to grow. A lot of young people feel like they don't
have much of a future... what do you expect, people to write songs
about putting flowers in their hair?

Well, *that* song was written in 1967, when the Viet Nam war was raging and
the ghettos were burning.

That is correct, however compare to the present time, America was then
at it's peak standard of living, and there was a lot more optimism
before the cynicism of Watergate, etc took hold.

Al


Yeah..imagine people breaking and entering in the 20th century USA...big
surprise..totally changed my life.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

playon wrote:

That is correct, however compare to the present time, America was then
at it's peak standard of living, and there was a lot more optimism
before the cynicism of Watergate, etc took hold.

That, and the inevitable progression to today's pessimism,
is the entire legacy of the '60s. In the '50s and the first
half of the '60s things were good and could only get better.
Remembering it well, I long for that public sentiment.

I feel that the assasinations were as much a cause of that
shift as were the Vietnam war and Watergate.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

On 2005-01-04, Blind Joni wrote:

Yeah..imagine people breaking and entering in the 20th century USA...big
surprise..totally changed my life.

Plenty of people will argue that *today* is the peak of the standard of living
so far. For the most part, I'd be inclined to agree with them. I
certainly don't buy the notion that it was better in the 1960s, the
1930s, or the 19th century.

If you think the standard of living was so great in 1962, consider what
you're comparing to: The average house was 1000 square feet. Typical
family had one car, some people had a (black & white) TV, some did not,
but pretty much everybody had an AM radio, or if you were stylin', a
credenza stereo. All meals were prepared at home, dining out was
something reserved for *very* special occasions. You could easily
make that happen on a single income today, but then we aren't really
comparing equivalent standards of living, are we?

On 2005-01-04, Bob Cain wrote:

In the '50s and the first
half of the '60s things were good and could only get better.
Remembering it well, I long for that public sentiment.

You're white, aren't you?

In article ,
Bob Cain wrote:

playon wrote:

That is correct, however compare to the present time, America was then
at it's peak standard of living, and there was a lot more optimism
before the cynicism of Watergate, etc took hold.

That, and the inevitable progression to today's pessimism,
is the entire legacy of the '60s. In the '50s and the first
half of the '60s things were good and could only get better.
Remembering it well, I long for that public sentiment.


I do not agree. I grew up in the '60s and participated in many acts of civil
disobedience and some not so civil. I am still optimistic about the US because
I have a good life and see those around me doing much the same. [I also
contribute considerably to help those for whom this isn't true.] The media's
constant drumbeat that the '60s destroyed everything good about America is
complete manipulation and complete nonsense. Lots of good came out of the '60s,
like civil rights, an awareness of the effects of the military-industrial
complex (which those who didn't "get" the '60s are now going to have to
re-learn), an awareness of poverty and class distinction causing inequality,
caring about the ecology of our environment, healthy foods, and the list goes on.

The problem is that so many people don't understand the real legacy of the
period. "Think for yourself." That is the real legacy of the '60s. The fact
that so many now are unable to do so is the failure of subsequent decades and
much of that relates to the decay of the public education system.

I think progressive political interests will soon begin to make headway as the
fallacies of the current political shenanigans become crystal clear to everyone.
I am optimistic because we have always been able to right ourselves in the past
and will likely do so in the future. Most of us are so much better off on a bad
day than the rest of the world is on a good day that there's just no reason for
pessimism. Maybe there's some cynical political reason for creating a false
sense of it. Or maybe we feel guilty because we're not contributing as much as
we feel we should to the well-being of others. It's a question of your own
mind-set.


I feel that the assasinations were as much a cause of that
shift as were the Vietnam war and Watergate.


Bob

We have had assassinations throughout our history. Most other countries have
had as well. It's a fact of life. Those who don't understand that don't
understand history, another underlying cause contributing to the current state
of affairs.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:01:18 GMT, james of tucson
wrote:

On 2005-01-04, Blind Joni wrote:

Yeah..imagine people breaking and entering in the 20th century USA...big
surprise..totally changed my life.

Plenty of people will argue that *today* is the peak of the standard of living
so far. For the most part, I'd be inclined to agree with them. I
certainly don't buy the notion that it was better in the 1960s, the
1930s, or the 19th century.

The 60s was definitely the US at it's peak. You seem to be confusing
luxuries with a higher standard of living.

If you think the standard of living was so great in 1962, consider what
you're comparing to: The average house was 1000 square feet.

You are totally missing the point. In 1962 a blue-collar worker could
afford to buy a house, and his wife didn't have to work and could stay
with the children. This created more stable families. How many working
class families can do that now? Also smaller houses meant less wasted
energy.

Typical
family had one car,

Again, less energy used, and families didn't need two cars if only one
person needed to work.

some people had a (black & white) TV, some did not,
but pretty much everybody had an AM radio, or if you were stylin', a
credenza stereo.

So what? Everyone was still able to enjoy their favorite music and
their favorite programs.

All meals were prepared at home,

This is bad??? The American public was in much better physical
condition in the 1960s. There was less obesity in 1962, as less people
sat on their asses all day in front computers. Gas cost around 25
cent a gallon. There were more and better jobs. High quality
products were produced here in the USA, not imported. The food supply
was mostly domestic and was very safe. There was easier access to
higher education, which today has become extremely expensive.
Terrorists were not crashing airplanes into buildings. We weren't at
war... the list goes on. By any measure the peak of the American
empire was the mid-60s.

Al

james of tucson wrote:
On 2005-01-04, Blind Joni wrote:


Yeah..imagine people breaking and entering in the 20th century USA...big
surprise..totally changed my life.


Plenty of people will argue that *today* is the peak of the standard of living
so far. For the most part, I'd be inclined to agree with them. I
certainly don't buy the notion that it was better in the 1960s, the
1930s, or the 19th century.

If you think the standard of living was so great in 1962, consider what
you're comparing to: The average house was 1000 square feet. Typical
family had one car, some people had a (black & white) TV, some did not,
but pretty much everybody had an AM radio, or if you were stylin', a
credenza stereo. All meals were prepared at home, dining out was
something reserved for *very* special occasions. You could easily
make that happen on a single income today, but then we aren't really
comparing equivalent standards of living, are we?


I thought it was better when I could buy stuff instead of subscribing to
****, people answered the phone and solved problems efficiently, and the
guy I worked for was honest and a friend. Those things you mention are
*entirely* material.

You can have your "standard of living". I'll take "quality of life".

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:03:03 -0800, Jay Kadis
wrote:

The media's
constant drumbeat that the '60s destroyed everything good about America is
complete manipulation and complete nonsense. Lots of good came out of the '60s,
like civil rights, an awareness of the effects of the military-industrial
complex (which those who didn't "get" the '60s are now going to have to
re-learn), an awareness of poverty and class distinction causing inequality,
caring about the ecology of our environment, healthy foods, and the list goes on.

This is very true. The impetus of the 60s is still with us. However
as you mentioned the "think for yourself" mentality is one thing that
the powers that be would rather not deal with.

I'm not a conspiracy nut but I think that the social protest movements
that begain in the 1960s alarmed many powerful people, and that since
then the country has been consciously "dumbed down" starting around
the late 70s. Education standards have been continually lowered, while
higher education has become less and less affordable for many. In
addition, the expectations of the American worker have been
successfully reduced by a tremendous amount. No job security, lower
wages, relaxation of worker safety, unions broken or made irrelevant,
etc -- that's all normal now. It's class warfare.

Al

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On 2005-01-02 said:
"Oh... gloom, despair, and agony on me...."
- Junior Samples
CAll b r five four nine ...



Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

"playon" wrote in message
...

African American artists such as Louie Armstrong, Duke Ellington,

Duh... maybe because there has been little improvement for many
African Americans...?

Sounds like someone is in "whine at whitey" mode today. We live in a
different uinverse than Duke Ellington's time when he couldn't stay at the
big hotels where he headlined.


You are showing your age. Rock n roll has always aimed to shock the
elders.

That's the line they'd like you to believe. A more accurate slant is it's
made to appeal to idiot kids and designed to separate them from their, or
more likely their parent's cash.

A bit of irony in rappers raking in big bucks bellowing about how hard they
have it.

Times change... we are not in the happiest of times in the USA.

And when were the "happiest of times"? Through much of US history, one was
subject to savage religious persecution if you didn't happen to profess the
correct beliefs. Throughout much of our history, health/dental care was
crude to nonexistent - cancer, rabies, polio, etc were 100% incurable,
unpreventable. If you got hardened arteries, there were no bypass
operations. Until fairly recent times, if a girl was being molested by a
male family member, she was likely doomed to have to suffer in silence. If
you were female you couldn't vote, couldn't get credit or a bank account in
your own name without your husband to co-sign. If you were a female teacher,
you had to quit if you married. As you've pointed out, until fairly recent
history, being black or basically any minority meant living a stunted life.

Young blacks today live in a society their grandfathers couldn't even
concieve of.

The
gap between rich and poor is the largest it's been in two generations
and continues to grow.

Define "poor". Take a look around the world to see what "poor" means. A
homeless person in the U.S. is better off than people in many places.

A lot of young people feel like they don't have much of a future.

A lot of young people have unrealistic expectations as to what it takes to
create a future for oneself.

The vast majority of the problem of poverty has to be put squarely on the
shoulders of those who continue to *create* more poor people.
"Underprivileged children" are created by "underprivileged parents" who
choose to procreate despite living in marginal circumstances. Leftist social
engineering has only served to encourage such behavior.

x-no archive: yes

james of tucson wrote:

If you think the standard of living was so great in 1962, consider what
you're comparing to: The average house was 1000 square feet. Typical
family had one car, some people had a (black & white) TV, some did not,
but pretty much everybody had an AM radio, or if you were stylin', a
credenza stereo. All meals were prepared at home, dining out was
something reserved for *very* special occasions. You could easily
make that happen on a single income today, but then we aren't really
comparing equivalent standards of living, are we?

Looking at your description of "better livng through adding more
technological stuff to the 'Man, I gotta have it' list", I'm not seeing
much of an increase in a standard of living. Is medical care now more
affordable than it was in 1962? Etc.

--
ha

Jay Kadis wrote:

I do not agree. I grew up in the '60s and participated in many acts of civil
disobedience and some not so civil.

That accounts for some of the difference in our points of
view. I grew up in the late '40s and the '50s and entered
college in '62. By the late '60s I was a young IBM engineer
wearing a suit and tie so my memories of those times and the
quality of them have an earlier bias.

I also agree with James that my POV, being white, is
considerably biased toward our experience. For blacks I am
sure it is much different.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 02:17:00 GMT, "James"
wrote:

"playon" wrote in message
.. .

African American artists such as Louie Armstrong, Duke Ellington,

Duh... maybe because there has been little improvement for many
African Americans...?

Sounds like someone is in "whine at whitey" mode today. We live in a
different uinverse than Duke Ellington's time when he couldn't stay at the
big hotels where he headlined.

Some things have improved, sure. But there is still a ton of
prejudice out there, and opportunities are scarce for a lot of people.

You are showing your age. Rock n roll has always aimed to shock the
elders.

That's the line they'd like you to believe. A more accurate slant is it's
made to appeal to idiot kids and designed to separate them from their, or
more likely their parent's cash.

And from their parent's sensibilities.


A bit of irony in rappers raking in big bucks bellowing about how hard they
have it.

Times change... we are not in the happiest of times in the USA.

And when were the "happiest of times"? Through much of US history, one was
subject to savage religious persecution if you didn't happen to profess the
correct beliefs.

Well just let the "Christian" right start running things and we'll be
right back there.

Throughout much of our history, health/dental care was
crude to nonexistent

Yep, now it's just non-affordable...

- cancer, rabies, polio, etc were 100% incurable,
unpreventable. If you got hardened arteries, there were no bypass
operations. Until fairly recent times, if a girl was being molested by a
male family member, she was likely doomed to have to suffer in silence. If
you were female you couldn't vote, couldn't get credit or a bank account in
your own name without your husband to co-sign. If you were a female teacher,
you had to quit if you married. As you've pointed out, until fairly recent
history, being black or basically any minority meant living a stunted life.

Young blacks today live in a society their grandfathers couldn't even
concieve of.

Yeah... the crack houses, the thousands of fatherless households, the
massive unemployment, etc.

The
gap between rich and poor is the largest it's been in two generations
and continues to grow.

Define "poor". Take a look around the world to see what "poor" means. A
homeless person in the U.S. is better off than people in many places.

Ah... yeah whatever you say.

A lot of young people feel like they don't have much of a future.

A lot of young people have unrealistic expectations as to what it takes to
create a future for oneself.

I think most young people would settle for a half decent job.

The vast majority of the problem of poverty has to be put squarely on the
shoulders of those who continue to *create* more poor people.
"Underprivileged children" are created by "underprivileged parents" who
choose to procreate despite living in marginal circumstances. Leftist social
engineering has only served to encourage such behavior.

Right, there were no poor people before the "leftists" ran the
country....

Al