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Crabshell
 
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Default DAT vs minidisc

I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to make
digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring albums and
tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound and performance
advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?

Thanks in advance!

-crabshell
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Scott Dorsey
 
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Crabshell wrote:
I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to make
digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring albums and
tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound and performance
advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?


Well, MiniDisc isn't lossless.

DAT isn't bad, but there's no new equipment being made for the most part.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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S O'Neill
 
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Crabshell wrote:

I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to make
digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring albums and
tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound and performance
advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?



DAT is lossless, MD is lossy (ATRAC).
  #4   Report Post  
chris
 
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Crabshell wrote:

I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to make
digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring albums and
tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound and performance
advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?



Well, MiniDisc isn't lossless.

DAT isn't bad, but there's no new equipment being made for the most part.
--scott



There is a new format Hi-MD using 1GB MD disc which allows Linear PCM
for recording. Therefore, the only difference left between Hi-MD and DAT
is HiMD is 44.1kHz (same as audio CD), while DAT is 48kHz (same as DVD
audio).
  #5   Report Post  
Bob Cain
 
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S O'Neill wrote:
Crabshell wrote:

I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to
make digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring
albums and tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound
and performance advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?




DAT is lossless, MD is lossy (ATRAC).


The latest generation, Hi-MD, can record 16 bit uncompressed
PCM. Info at:

http://www.minidisc.org


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein


  #6   Report Post  
Geoff Wood
 
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"Crabshell" wrote in message
...
I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to make
digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring albums and
tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound and performance
advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?


Yes, MiniDisc uses a data-reduction principal (ATRAC) similar to MP3. the
sound is inherently compromised. DAT uses linear PCM, and remains on
replay pretty much the same quality as the original AD conversion. Ideally
....


geoff


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play on
 
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Is there a reason why you don't want to record the records onto a
computer and burn them onto CDRs?

Mini Discs and DAT tape are a lot more costly than CDRs, as well.

Al

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:12:35 GMT, Crabshell
wrote:

I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to make
digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring albums and
tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound and performance
advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?

Thanks in advance!

-crabshell


  #8   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
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play on wrote:
Is there a reason why you don't want to record the records onto a
computer and burn them onto CDRs?


What's wrong with just putting the records on and listening to them too?
I have a Lionel Hampton LP on the Fairchild right now and it sounds just
great.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #9   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
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In article writes:

I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to make
digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring albums and
tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound and performance
advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?


MiniDisk, unless you get one of the new HD Minidisks and run it in the
uncompessed mode, uses a data reduction algorithm that acts
differently on different program material. Most of the time it sounds
OK, but you can't really tell until you record and play back. DAT
records without data compression. That's a point for the DAT

But I'm not sure that there are any new DAT recorders still being
manufactured. The last of two companies that made the transports
stopped over a year ago. So any DAT that you buy will be second-hand.
These tend to not be maintained so you may have a couple of hundred
bucks worth of refurbishment before you can get full performance out
of it. That's a point against DAT.

I'd suggest that you make CDs. You can do it on your computer, you can
play them just about anywhere, they're uncompressed (unless you do
your recording in an MP3 format to save space), and the media is cheap
as dirt. If you'd rather not use your computer for this, you can get a
stand-alone recorder CD recorder. Or if you want to get ready for the
next generation, TASCAM recently announced a stand-alone DVD audio
recorder for, I think, around $1500.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  #10   Report Post  
crabshell
 
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Would I need a high powered audio card to do that?

play on wrote in
:

Is there a reason why you don't want to record the records onto a
computer and burn them onto CDRs?

Mini Discs and DAT tape are a lot more costly than CDRs, as well.

Al

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:12:35 GMT, Crabshell
wrote:

I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to
make digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring
albums and tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound
and performance advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?

Thanks in advance!

-crabshell






  #12   Report Post  
Philipp Wachtel
 
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Well, MiniDisc isn't lossless.

HiMD is lossless... and the portabel recorders for it are already
cheaper than the old ones. A new one might even be cheaper than or
same price as a used DAT recorder, that you donīt know much about.

DAT isn't bad, but there's no new equipment being made for the most
part.


which is a big disadvantage as itīs also getting harder to get DAT
tapes...

There is a new format Hi-MD using 1GB MD disc which allows Linear
PCM for recording. Therefore, the only difference left between Hi-MD
and DAT is HiMD is 44.1kHz (same as audio CD), while DAT is 48kHz
(same as DVD audio).


I have used DAT recorders that could handle 44.1 kHz as well...


Phil

  #13   Report Post  
chris
 
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Philipp Wachtel wrote:
I have used DAT recorders that could handle 44.1 kHz as well...


Phil


Not sure what you want to say here. Being able to handle sampling rate
of 48kHz is certainly better. 44.1kHz is sufficient to my need though.
  #15   Report Post  
play on
 
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 03:19:20 GMT, crabshell
wrote:

Would I need a high powered audio card to do that?


No, but you will get better sound with a better card. You don't have
to spend too much to get something half decent.

Al

play on wrote in
:

Is there a reason why you don't want to record the records onto a
computer and burn them onto CDRs?

Mini Discs and DAT tape are a lot more costly than CDRs, as well.

Al

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:12:35 GMT, Crabshell
wrote:

I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to
make digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring
albums and tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound
and performance advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?

Thanks in advance!

-crabshell






  #16   Report Post  
play on
 
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 04:16:11 GMT, chris wrote:

Philipp Wachtel wrote:
I have used DAT recorders that could handle 44.1 kHz as well...


Phil


Not sure what you want to say here. Being able to handle sampling rate
of 48kHz is certainly better. 44.1kHz is sufficient to my need though.


If you plan on burning a CD you are much better off with 44.1

Al
  #17   Report Post  
Logan Shaw
 
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crabshell wrote:

Would I need a high powered audio card to do that?


You'd *want* one that sounds good, but I'm not quite sure
what you mean by "high powered". Unlike (say) video, two
track audio just doesn't require that much processing power
to simply record[1] or play back.

Arny Krueger has a nice list of good-quality audio cards he

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/compare/index.htm

Some of the cards listed are a few years old, and there are
probably some newer cards not listed, but it might give you
some useful information anyway.

As for software, I haven't used it, there is a 30-day "tryout"
version of Adobe Audition available, and I *think* it should
be able to do everything you need based on the description
of which features are disabled (not many) in the trial version:

http://www.adobe.com/products/audition/main.html

Hope that helps.

- Logan

[1] The corollary is that all these super-deluxe consumer
sound cards that have been released over the last few years
rarely do anything that an SoundBlaster PCI128 doesn't do,
except maybe surround sound, which is just the addition of
a few more channels. Well, some of them do some 3D audio
effects, but most of those effects sound like crud to me.
Also, some of them do MIDI in hardware, but these days
MIDI can easily be done in software, so that's mostly
useless as well...
  #18   Report Post  
Carey Carlan
 
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Default

crabshell wrote in news:mUGFd.1851$2e7.1610
@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com:

Alas, no turntable in the Honda...


If you're going for car sound, the difference between $10K converters and
those in your computer will be just about nil. I find that hi-res MP3 is
the ideal car format.
  #20   Report Post  
Bill Van Dyk
 
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Can you correct me if I'm wrong-- it appears to me that the new Hi-MD
still records in a proprietary compression algorithym, but you are able
to convert it to a wave file on your computer.

If true, that would make it considerably less attractive as a medium,
wouldn't it?

Bob Cain wrote:


S O'Neill wrote:

Crabshell wrote:

I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to
make digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring
albums and tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound
and performance advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?





DAT is lossless, MD is lossy (ATRAC).



The latest generation, Hi-MD, can record 16 bit uncompressed PCM. Info at:

http://www.minidisc.org


Bob




  #21   Report Post  
Bill Van Dyk
 
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I find it rather strange-- or is it just me?-- that I can buy a 50 mm
rifle with which I could shoot down a Boeing 747 (at take-off), or
penetrate 1/2" steel plate, without much difficulty.

But if you buy a minidisk, it is assumed that you are trying to steal
music, and therefore hardware inhibit mechanisms must be built in to the
device before it can be allowed on the market.

Recording engineers need a better lobby.

Minidisks don't steal music. People steal music. Sure, get tough on
copyright pirates, but I should still be able to walk into a Best Buy,
in my recording engineer sweats, with my microphones and pre-amps strung
around my neck, and walk out with a minidisk no matter what the guy
behind the counter thinks.

Or do we need to register minidisk users?

Crabshell wrote:
I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup for a newbie. I want to make
digital recordings from an analog source -- mostly transferring albums and
tapes to a lossless digital format. Are there any sound and performance
advantages of DAT vs MiniDisc?

Thanks in advance!

-crabshell


  #22   Report Post  
james of tucson
 
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On 2005-01-14, Bill Van Dyk wrote:


I find it rather strange-- or is it just me?-- that I can buy a 50 mm
rifle


50mm would be artillery, not a rifle. You must mean 50 calibre, also
known as (literally) "armed for bear".

with which I could shoot down a Boeing 747 (at take-off), or
penetrate 1/2" steel plate, without much difficulty.


Don't take for granted what it can do. When I say "armed for bear", I
mean it -- 50cal BMG is about what it takes to penetrate a bear skull.
12ga shotgun slug won't do it. .357 magnum won't do it. As far as
easily penetrating a 1/2" steel plate, again, don't bet your life on it.

But if you buy a minidisk, it is assumed that you are trying to steal
music, and therefore hardware inhibit mechanisms must be built in to the
device before it can be allowed on the market.


I hate the way my minidisc recorder locks me out of my own music that I
have composed and performed. I don't think that's right, and in fact,
this damned machine has asserted control of my copyrighted materials. I
think I should be able to sue Sony over it.
  #23   Report Post  
Geoff Wood
 
Posts: n/a
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"Bill Van Dyk" wrote in message
...
Can you correct me if I'm wrong-- it appears to me that the new Hi-MD
still records in a proprietary compression algorithym, but you are able to
convert it to a wave file on your computer.

If true, that would make it considerably less attractive as a medium,
wouldn't it?


No, you are wrong. There is a linear PCM mode of operation.

geoff


  #24   Report Post  
Bob Cain
 
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Bill Van Dyk wrote:
Can you correct me if I'm wrong-- it appears to me that the new Hi-MD
still records in a proprietary compression algorithym, but you are able
to convert it to a wave file on your computer.


It just packages it uniquely. The data in the files is
truly uncompressed if that's how you record it. The utility
doesn't change the data but just the package around it from
their .omg file to the standard .wav file.

If true, that would make it considerably less attractive as a medium,
wouldn't it?


Sure would. There is still a gotcha. It is reported that
it will allow you to upload (or attempt to upload) only
twice before erasing your recording from the disc. Should
both uploads fail for whatever reason (system crash, power
outage, etc.) your recording is lost.

Come to think of it, though, I haven't actually heard anyone
who reports this problem say that they pulled the plug part
way through the attempts to see if the mark or "erasure"
occurs at the start of the transfer or after it is complete.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
  #25   Report Post  
 
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Bob Cain writes:

Bill Van Dyk wrote:
Can you correct me if I'm wrong-- it appears to me that the new Hi-MD
still records in a proprietary compression algorithym, but you are able
to convert it to a wave file on your computer.


It just packages it uniquely. The data in the files is
truly uncompressed if that's how you record it. The utility
doesn't change the data but just the package around it from
their .omg file to the standard .wav file.

If true, that would make it considerably less attractive as a medium,
wouldn't it?


Sure would. There is still a gotcha. It is reported that
it will allow you to upload (or attempt to upload) only
twice before erasing your recording from the disc. Should
both uploads fail for whatever reason (system crash, power
outage, etc.) your recording is lost.

Come to think of it, though, I haven't actually heard anyone
who reports this problem say that they pulled the plug part
way through the attempts to see if the mark or "erasure"
occurs at the start of the transfer or after it is complete.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein


Dear Bob,

It is hard to defeat Sony's upload limit. Or any other DRM for that matter.
It seems to upload about 2/3 the way, then it access/writes the disc, then
continues. If you turn on write protect on the disc, the upload won't start
at all.

The simplest and safest way is to just do realtime transfers. Somehow, via
hardware or software, loopback the computer's sound signal from output to
input, use Sony's program to play the sound and run a second program to
capture.

This is realtime, but hey, DAT is no faster! I've tried the upload and then
the WAV converter, but they are not all that fast anyway. About twice the
speed of realtime. So I just go realtime and have zero risk of losing my
data.

By the way, I've just bought a used Nomad Jukebox 3, but I haven't even had a
chance to use it. The minidisc is just so convenient and portable. No
external power or preamps are needed.

Richard


  #26   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
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In article writes:

This is realtime, but hey, DAT is no faster! I've tried the upload and then
the WAV converter, but they are not all that fast anyway. About twice the
speed of realtime. So I just go realtime and have zero risk of losing my
data.

By the way, I've just bought a used Nomad Jukebox 3, but I haven't even had a
chance to use it. The minidisc is just so convenient and portable. No
external power or preamps are needed.


By that I take it you're using a mic that requires power that's
supplied from the Minidisk player. True, the Jukebox doesn't provide
"plug-in power" and it's a bit larger than a Minidisk, but I sure
can't complain about the battery life. There's nothing that
prevents file transfer of recordings in either direction other than
that you need their software to access it from a computer and unless
someone's come up with a Macintosh file transfer program, it's PC
only.

By the way, what's the media cost on the high resolution Minidisk? How
much time (uncompressed) can you record on a blank disk, and how much
do blanks cost? If they're cheap, you can just file them like
cassettes or CDs, but I don't think they're that cheap yet, so, like
with flash card recorders, you're probably compelled (by cost) to just
have a few disks and recycle them. Flash cards don't wear out (that we
know about anyway) but disks do.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  #27   Report Post  
Bob Olhsson
 
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1105658621k@trad...
...any DAT that you buy will be second-hand.
These tend to not be maintained so you may have a couple of hundred
bucks worth of refurbishment before you can get full performance out
of it. That's a point against DAT.


A more important one is that for the past five years the only new DAT tapes
that have been of high enough quality to not light up my Sony 7030's error
lights like a Christmas tree have been made by Fuji. Now that DAT is no
longer a major computer backup format while remaining among the most
expensive, there is a serious question of reliable DAT tape stock remaining
available.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com


  #28   Report Post  
Bob Cain
 
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Mike Rivers wrote:


By the way, what's the media cost on the high resolution Minidisk? How
much time (uncompressed) can you record on a blank disk, and how much
do blanks cost? If they're cheap, you can just file them like
cassettes or CDs, but I don't think they're that cheap yet, so, like
with flash card recorders, you're probably compelled (by cost) to just
have a few disks and recycle them. Flash cards don't wear out (that we
know about anyway) but disks do.


They're $7.00 at J&R. For detailed info on capacity at
various record modes check out:

http://www.minidisc.org/hi-md_faq.html#_q93

For the FAQ main page see:

http://www.minidisc.org/hi-md_faq.html


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
  #29   Report Post  
james of tucson
 
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On 2005-01-15, Bob Cain wrote:

Flash cards don't wear out (that we
know about anyway) but disks do.


Flash memory does have a limit on writes. It's not usually a practical
issue, but it is enough of a consideration to be a certification problem
for flash devices in aviation electronics.
  #30   Report Post  
 
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(Mike Rivers) writes:

In article
writes:

This is realtime, but hey, DAT is no faster! I've tried the upload and then
the WAV converter, but they are not all that fast anyway. About twice the
speed of realtime. So I just go realtime and have zero risk of losing my
data.

By the way, I've just bought a used Nomad Jukebox 3, but I haven't even had a
chance to use it. The minidisc is just so convenient and portable. No
external power or preamps are needed.


By that I take it you're using a mic that requires power that's
supplied from the Minidisk player. True, the Jukebox doesn't provide
"plug-in power" and it's a bit larger than a Minidisk, but I sure
can't complain about the battery life. There's nothing that


Battery life is about two to three hours of PCM recording on a single NiMH AA
cell. The main advantage of MD is that I can carry a bunch of AA cells in my
pocket and replace the battery each time I change media. This is great for
festivals, etc, where you may record all day.

prevents file transfer of recordings in either direction other than
that you need their software to access it from a computer and unless
someone's come up with a Macintosh file transfer program, it's PC
only.


I'm using electret mics (AT853), with a self-made battery power circuit. I
plug these mics into mic in on the minidisc. I don't think there is enough
gain on the line input of the Jukebox to take these. I'm planning on using an
external preamp and A/D (Edirol UA5) but have not got around to this yet.
Minidisc is just too convenient for now.

By the way, what's the media cost on the high resolution Minidisk? How
much time (uncompressed) can you record on a blank disk, and how much
do blanks cost? If they're cheap, you can just file them like
cassettes or CDs, but I don't think they're that cheap yet, so, like
with flash card recorders, you're probably compelled (by cost) to just
have a few disks and recycle them. Flash cards don't wear out (that we
know about anyway) but disks do.



High capacity disks are about $7 to $10. But you can record an unlimited
number of times. I've got four discs right now and I just keep cycling
through them. You can also buy lower density media for about $1 each. I use
these for playback of compressed material, pretty similar to MP3 I think. I
happen to like the removeable media more though.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo


Richard


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