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Wayne R. Wayne R. is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.

Was it a 5.1 "conversion" problem or what? It seemed like the center
channel was missing, but since I don't have a 5.1 setup I can't be
sure. Can anyone give me an idea where the problem came from and what
it might have been? Maybe it sucked for everyone, or just stereo users
like us.

Happily for me, I didn't want to watch the silliness, so I went away.
Honeypie suffered though it though...
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

Wayne R. wrote:
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.


You know, everybody says this every year. Every year there's an extensive
discussion here about missed cues and downmixing.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mark Mark is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Feb 1, 8:15*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Wayne R. wrote:

I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.


You know, everybody says this every year. *Every year there's an extensive
discussion here about missed cues and downmixing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


I'm more curious about the MECHANICS of how they blanked out the audio
of the "objectionable" lyrics.

Was some "suit" standing there in the TV control room with his finger
on the button, or did they have a script to review in advance or???

Mark

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

Mark wrote:

I'm more curious about the MECHANICS of how they blanked out the audio
of the "objectionable" lyrics.

Was some "suit" standing there in the TV control room with his finger
on the button, or did they have a script to review in advance or???


I don't know how they do it, but I have worked plenty of events where
the audio and video were delayed by a few seconds, and someone was
assigned to sit at the button. They probably had a script, but the
thing about live events is that they often don't go the way the script
says they are supposed to go.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Charles Tomaras Charles Tomaras is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?


"Wayne R." wrote in message
...
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.

Was it a 5.1 "conversion" problem or what? It seemed like the center
channel was missing, but since I don't have a 5.1 setup I can't be
sure. Can anyone give me an idea where the problem came from and what
it might have been? Maybe it sucked for everyone, or just stereo users
like us.

Happily for me, I didn't want to watch the silliness, so I went away.
Honeypie suffered though it though...


From what I watched in 5.1 with a better than average setup it sounded
pretty good. I watched and was really amazed by how decent the mixes were
given the enormity of the challenge. So many sources, so many monitor mixes,
so much RF....really blown away that it works as well as it does.


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Wayne R. Wayne R. is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:16:03 -0800, "Charles Tomaras"
wrote (with clarity & insight):


"Wayne R." wrote in message
.. .
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.

Was it a 5.1 "conversion" problem or what? It seemed like the center
channel was missing, but since I don't have a 5.1 setup I can't be
sure. Can anyone give me an idea where the problem came from and what
it might have been? Maybe it sucked for everyone, or just stereo users
like us.

Happily for me, I didn't want to watch the silliness, so I went away.
Honeypie suffered though it though...


From what I watched in 5.1 with a better than average setup it sounded
pretty good. I watched and was really amazed by how decent the mixes were
given the enormity of the challenge. So many sources, so many monitor mixes,
so much RF....really blown away that it works as well as it does.


So is it possible that the stereo listeners got junk? How does that
work?

It really sounded horrible here...
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Moshe Goldfarb[_4_] Moshe Goldfarb[_4_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 06:45:46 -0800 (PST), Mark wrote:

On Feb 1, 8:15*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Wayne R. wrote:

I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.


You know, everybody says this every year. *Every year there's an extensive
discussion here about missed cues and downmixing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


I'm more curious about the MECHANICS of how they blanked out the audio
of the "objectionable" lyrics.

Was some "suit" standing there in the TV control room with his finger
on the button, or did they have a script to review in advance or???

Mark


Somebody should have taped the button down at the start of the
show.

What garbage...

It's sad that this is the "best" the music industry has to offer.

As for audio, I listened in HD through my home system (stereo,
Bryston/KeF) and for what i listened to, it sounded ok.

I was flipping channels though so I might have missed any problems
that might have occurred.


--

2/1/2010 2:55:10 PM
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MG[_4_] MG[_4_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?



"Wayne R." wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:16:03 -0800, "Charles Tomaras"
wrote (with clarity & insight):


"Wayne R." wrote in message
. ..
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.

Was it a 5.1 "conversion" problem or what? It seemed like the center
channel was missing, but since I don't have a 5.1 setup I can't be
sure. Can anyone give me an idea where the problem came from and what
it might have been? Maybe it sucked for everyone, or just stereo users
like us.

Happily for me, I didn't want to watch the silliness, so I went away.
Honeypie suffered though it though...


From what I watched in 5.1 with a better than average setup it sounded
pretty good. I watched and was really amazed by how decent the mixes were
given the enormity of the challenge. So many sources, so many monitor
mixes,
so much RF....really blown away that it works as well as it does.


So is it possible that the stereo listeners got junk? How does that
work?

It really sounded horrible here...


The delay is simple with today's servers. It's the same process as TIVO,
obviously to more rigorous standards. I would assume the mute would occur
on the playback, not in real time. The delay could be adjusted to virtually
any length.

mg

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Klay_Anderson Klay_Anderson is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Feb 1, 4:00*am, Wayne R. wrote:
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.



Well, IMHO, your Bose speakers did not help. Nor did the bit-starved,
compressed-at-least-three-to-one POS (and I don't mean Point Of Sale)
video signal. But we'll save that for another time.

OTA from local sounded great. What issues there were were probably
due to last minute changes on live TV. If you have never done live
TV, you have not lived. There are usually five or more people sub-
mixing bands, audience, orchestra and program that sometimes the right
hand cannot see the left hand by the time it gets to someone like (the
consummate pro) Ed Greene for broadcast. Written by industry vet Mr.
Mel Lambert, here is the article from 2008. It explains a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/yfqhlyx

Text "Klay" to 50500 for contact info

-.- .-.. .- -.-- / .- - / -.- .-.. .- -.-- / -.. --- - / -.-. --- --
Yours truly,

Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.
Klay Anderson Audio, Inc.


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Arkansan Raider Arkansan Raider is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

Wayne R. wrote:
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.

Was it a 5.1 "conversion" problem or what? It seemed like the center
channel was missing, but since I don't have a 5.1 setup I can't be
sure. Can anyone give me an idea where the problem came from and what
it might have been? Maybe it sucked for everyone, or just stereo users
like us.

Happily for me, I didn't want to watch the silliness, so I went away.
Honeypie suffered though it though...


If she watched Taylor Swift try to sing on pitch last night, I'd say
"suffered" is right.

http://neonlimelight.com/2010/01/31/...s-performance/

*Ugh*

---Jeff
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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

"Roy W. Rising" wrote ...
Years ago, the "5-sec delay" was done using two videotape machines and a
rack of spools to contain 5 seconds' length of tape. Now, it's more like
a
home DVR that can playback what it is recording.


At the college radio station we had a pair of Ampex 350s in
in adjacent racks. The "A" on the left machine was used to
record the air mix, and after the loop (with a plastic 7-inch
reel to keep the loop tight) the "B" machine on the right would
play the tape back to the transmitter. Also kept the tape
spooled up on the "B" machine in case anybody came along
later with issues about the content.

I don't know CBS'
methods, ABC-TV has a department called "Broadcast Standards and
Practices". Network programming goes through the delay box in New York, a
B.S.& P. employee sits with a finger on "the button", following the script
and listening for unacceptable material. The mute is in real time, we
hear
it several seconds later.


We used to have a tough time with both board operators and
"talent" getting into (and out of) a show with 7 seconds of delay.
But modern digital equipment buffers in and out between real-
time and delayed-time pretty seamlessly.

These days on the TV "reality" and wacko studio shows they are
even obscuring the mouths of the people saying the forbidden words.


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Wayne R. Wayne R. is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:31:38 -0500, "MG"
wrote (with clarity & insight):

"Wayne R." wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:16:03 -0800, "Charles Tomaras"
wrote (with clarity & insight):


"Wayne R." wrote in message
...
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.

Was it a 5.1 "conversion" problem or what? It seemed like the center
channel was missing, but since I don't have a 5.1 setup I can't be
sure. Can anyone give me an idea where the problem came from and what
it might have been? Maybe it sucked for everyone, or just stereo users
like us.

Happily for me, I didn't want to watch the silliness, so I went away.
Honeypie suffered though it though...

From what I watched in 5.1 with a better than average setup it sounded
pretty good. I watched and was really amazed by how decent the mixes were
given the enormity of the challenge. So many sources, so many monitor
mixes,
so much RF....really blown away that it works as well as it does.


So is it possible that the stereo listeners got junk? How does that
work?

It really sounded horrible here...


The delay is simple with today's servers. It's the same process as TIVO,
obviously to more rigorous standards. I would assume the mute would occur
on the playback, not in real time. The delay could be adjusted to virtually
any length.


Delay isn't the same as suck. The sound we heard sucked, delay or no.

Is it possible that 5.1 rigs sounded okay while poor old stereo users
heard crap? I don't know how that works...
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

Wayne R. wrote:

Is it possible that 5.1 rigs sounded okay while poor old stereo users
heard crap? I don't know how that works...


It's possible if the automated downmixing sucks, which it sometimes
does.

Of course, by the time it gets from the truck to the network affiliate
it's probably been through a dozen compressors since video people don't
like to set levels and they use AGC systems instead of end-to-end tone
lineups.

And if it came off a cable system, all bets are off.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Les Cargill[_2_] Les Cargill[_2_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

Arkansan Raider wrote:
Wayne R. wrote:
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.

Was it a 5.1 "conversion" problem or what? It seemed like the center
channel was missing, but since I don't have a 5.1 setup I can't be
sure. Can anyone give me an idea where the problem came from and what
it might have been? Maybe it sucked for everyone, or just stereo users
like us.

Happily for me, I didn't want to watch the silliness, so I went away.
Honeypie suffered though it though...


If she watched Taylor Swift try to sing on pitch last night, I'd say
"suffered" is right.

http://neonlimelight.com/2010/01/31/...s-performance/


*Ugh*

---Jeff


My. God. So that's who that is.

The horror... the horror....

--
Les Cargill


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Richard Webb[_3_] Richard Webb[_3_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Mon 2038-Feb-01 10:37, Scott Dorsey writes:
Was some "suit" standing there in the TV control room with his finger
on the button, or did they have a script to review in advance or???


I don't know how they do it, but I have worked plenty of events
where the audio and video were delayed by a few seconds, and someone
was assigned to sit at the button. They probably had a script, but
the thing about live events is that they often don't go the way the
script says they are supposed to go.


True, and every year when this discussions rears its head we remind folks of Scott's above point as well. No matter how
good the folks are in the remote truck there are always
things that didn't go as planned, and no doubt, even if
there
were rehearsals chances are good the remote truck folks
weren't there for them.

Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
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Harvey Gerst[_2_] Harvey Gerst[_2_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

wrote:

Arkansan Raider wrote:
Wayne R. wrote:
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.

Was it a 5.1 "conversion" problem or what? It seemed like the center
channel was missing, but since I don't have a 5.1 setup I can't be
sure. Can anyone give me an idea where the problem came from and what
it might have been? Maybe it sucked for everyone, or just stereo users
like us.

Happily for me, I didn't want to watch the silliness, so I went away.
Honeypie suffered though it though...


If she watched Taylor Swift try to sing on pitch last night, I'd say
"suffered" is right.

http://neonlimelight.com/2010/01/31/...s-performance/


*Ugh*

---Jeff


Actually, the one good thing about that performance is that it made me
seriously rethink my position on the use of Autotune.

-Harvey
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 00:28:29 -0600, Harvey Gerst
wrote:

wrote:

Arkansan Raider wrote:
Wayne R. wrote:
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.

Was it a 5.1 "conversion" problem or what? It seemed like the center
channel was missing, but since I don't have a 5.1 setup I can't be
sure. Can anyone give me an idea where the problem came from and what
it might have been? Maybe it sucked for everyone, or just stereo users
like us.

Happily for me, I didn't want to watch the silliness, so I went away.
Honeypie suffered though it though...

If she watched Taylor Swift try to sing on pitch last night, I'd say
"suffered" is right.

http://neonlimelight.com/2010/01/31/...s-performance/


*Ugh*

---Jeff


Actually, the one good thing about that performance is that it made me
seriously rethink my position on the use of Autotune.

-Harvey


Come back Suzanne Vega, please. That was just horrible.

d
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[email protected] blackburst@aol.com is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

This is off-topic, but tangentially related:

In another recent live event, the President's State of the Union
speech, I kept flipping around to various networks to compare the
coverage. The video and audio quality was similar and excellent on all
of them except CNN: Their audio sounded very thin and phase-y, both
live and when later excerpted.

A big outfit like CNN, on a big event like this, should have tested
the pool* audio feed much earlier in the day, and had a backup in case
of problems. In a pinch, they could have "borrowed" audio from one of
the dozens of satellite "clean feeds" in the air at that point. What
were they thinking? Can't their chief engineer (or Audio 1) "HEAR" bad
audio?

*Now that I think of it, I believe CNN THEMSELVES were providing the
pool feed! Are you listening, Jon Klein?

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brassplyer brassplyer is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Feb 1, 6:00*am, Wayne R. wrote:
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.



Isn't this the point where various folks are supposed to have a hissy
and issue a challenge to a duel with pistols at dawn because the OP
has dared suggest there could be any problem with any aspect of audio
production?


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Moshe Goldfarb[_4_] Moshe Goldfarb[_4_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:41:16 -0600, Harvey Gerst wrote:


Yeah, in all fairness, the song was pitched to favor Stevie's voice,
which put it a little too high for Taylor, and the idea of singing
with one of her idols probably made her try some things she now
regrets. It takes a lot of guts to get up in front of a huge audience
when you're 20 years old, new to the business, singing with a legend.
whose career dwarfs your entire lifespan.


Well stated!
Compared to what else is out there, Taylor can at least sing.
The key was definitely chosen for Stevie's voice.

--

2/2/2010 11:22:49 AM
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

Compared to what else is out there, Taylor can at least sing.
The key was definitely chosen for Stevie's voice.


Also apparently the arrangement was made to include the banjo-mandolin
to give
the guy with the viral video who I never heard of a chance to play on TV
with the
one whose song he covered with the banjo/mandolin/country-funk arrangement.




--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without
a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be
operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:20:09 -0800 (PST), brassplyer wrote:

On Feb 1, 6:00*am, Wayne R. wrote:
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.



Isn't this the point where various folks are supposed to have a hissy
and issue a challenge to a duel with pistols at dawn because the OP
has dared suggest there could be any problem with any aspect of audio
production?


I choose "Bose" at 20 paces!!

The only question that remains is whether we are going to shoot
*with them* or *at them* !!

Other's may choose Samson or Berhinger !!

Hahaha!

P.S. I don't hate Bose. Got many years of touring from a set of
802's for my keyboard rig monitoring.

--

2/2/2010 11:26:18 AM
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Moshe Goldfarb[_4_] Moshe Goldfarb[_4_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:29:05 -0500, Mike Rivers wrote:

Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

Compared to what else is out there, Taylor can at least sing.
The key was definitely chosen for Stevie's voice.


Also apparently the arrangement was made to include the banjo-mandolin
to give
the guy with the viral video who I never heard of a chance to play on TV
with the
one whose song he covered with the banjo/mandolin/country-funk arrangement.


Yea, that was kind of odd.
I never heard of that guy either.

Ever since the movie Deliverance was released I can't bring myself
to listen to banjo music.

--

2/2/2010 12:25:51 PM


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Roy W. Rising[_2_] Roy W. Rising[_2_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

Klay_Anderson wrote:
On Feb 1, 4:00=A0am, Wayne R. wrote:
I'm no expert on these things, but last night's Grammy show's audio
(over Comcast, through an HD TiVo to 2-ch. Bose system) really sucked.


Well, IMHO, your Bose speakers did not help. Nor did the bit-starved,
compressed-at-least-three-to-one POS (and I don't mean Point Of Sale)
video signal. But we'll save that for another time.

OTA from local sounded great. What issues there were were probably
due to last minute changes on live TV. If you have never done live
TV, you have not lived. There are usually five or more people sub-
mixing bands, audience, orchestra and program that sometimes the right
hand cannot see the left hand by the time it gets to someone like (the
consummate pro) Ed Greene for broadcast. Written by industry vet Mr.
Mel Lambert, here is the article from 2008. It explains a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/yfqhlyx

Text "Klay" to 50500 for contact info

-.- .-.. .- -.-- / .- - / -.- .-.. .- -.-- / -.. --- - / -.-. --- --
Yours truly,

Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.
Klay Anderson Audio, Inc.


The exigencies of live award show audio notwithstanding, I cannot think of
Ed Greene as a "consummate pro". He had recently received an Emmy. When I
offered my hand to congratulate him, he turned and walked away. I guess he
doesn't like me for some reason.

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"
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Geoff Geoff is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

Harvey Gerst wrote:


Actually, the one good thing about that performance is that it made me
seriously rethink my position on the use of Autotune.


Hopefully with the conclusion that it is evil, and vocalists should actually
be able to sing properly before being famous.....


geoff


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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:54:27 +1300, "geoff"
wrote:

Harvey Gerst wrote:


Actually, the one good thing about that performance is that it made me
seriously rethink my position on the use of Autotune.


Hopefully with the conclusion that it is evil, and vocalists should actually
be able to sing properly before being famous.....



It used to be said that the only place where fame and success come
before work is in the dictionary. No longer.

d
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Arkansan Raider Arkansan Raider is offline
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Default Grammy TV Audio?

Brian, you've got issues.

Please handle them on your time, not ours.

Kthxbai.

---Jeff
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