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Microphone preamp advice
Hi,
I'm a home hobbiest guitarist that for the past few years has been get interested in studio engineering / home recording, posted here a couple times over the years and its been a great help. But I'm stuck again! Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load - can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it without speaker / mic / noise). I take that mic level signal the JDX produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard. The behringer is a nice unit, especially for the price, however, I'm having a problem with the output levels since I bought the Layla 3G. The layla 3G has db modifers for the channel -10db and +4db I think. One is very quite and I presume is the more professional standard / level, the other one seems to take the signal it gets and amp it up a bit to the correct level. Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU meter in the echo console get just over half way. If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard when its set on a normal level. So what I have to do is turn the gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on (The extra noise is partly I think the noise of my amp which is unaudible on the -10db setting suddenly becomes audible). I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its dynamics (the sound levels I record is slashed in half) and noise becomes an issue as the signal volume : noise volume ratio is worse. If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more prevalent. Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and its going to be towards 3/4-full vu / normal recording level, not half way. Can anyone help me know if this makes sense? I'm thinking the solution is to buy a better pre amp, one that can hit the full / normal level of the sound card without the db boost / amp step. Which is alright, I kind of wanted to upgrade my preamp because its almost an entry level preamp and is the cheapest link in my setup, which I'm guessing is bad, because it seems to be doing a very important job. Does that sound good? Dont really want to start asking for advice on what thing to buy etc becuase I realise thats annoying, but I was thinking of just getting a good quality mid level 1 or 2 channel preamp. I dont know how much these things cost, but I'm expecting something in the £500 region - probably no point in spending more? Thanks for any help, I find its always helpful to get advice from people before speaking to sales people. Jon. |
#2
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Microphone preamp advice
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#3
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Microphone preamp advice
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#4
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Microphone preamp advice
On Aug 14, 3:48*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
wrote: Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load - can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it without speaker / mic / noise). *I take that mic level signal the JDX produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard. Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU meter in the echo console get just over half way. If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard when its *set on a normal level. *So what I have to do is turn the gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its dynamics There are a number of things at work here. First off, "half way up" on a VU meter, and this is pretty much the case whether you're looking at the analog meter on your preamp or the digital meter in your sound card or computer program, is a perfectly good level that allows for some headroom, which you'll surely need. The biggest distraction is when you look at the waveform graphic that you've recorded. They don't scale the graphic in a very informative way, so a recording with occasion peaks close to full scale but mostly with 10 to 15 dB of headroom (a good thing) looks really skimpy. If it's quiet, turn up your playback volume. You can make final level adjustments when you're working on the mix. And remember that if you're comparing your recordings to a commercial CD, you'll never hear that much level because your work hasn't been mastered to blast the listener. It's perfectly OK to record 10 dB or a bit more below peak level and then boost the level on the digital side if you need to do so. And it's even more OK if you record in 24-bit resolution. Don't worry about "losing dynamics.." That only happens when you need to reduce the dynamic range by squashing the peaks so that you have room to bring up the average level. That's what makes commercial CDs sound louder than your recordings, but it's a separate process and you shouldn't worry about it while you're tracking your guitar parts. If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more prevalent. * Not really. You're attenuating the source less. * Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and its going to be towards 3/4-full vu / normal recording level, not half way. If there's a "sweet spot" it's something that you'll be able to find, not imagine. Don't worry about anything you can't hear. But on the other hand, turning up gains so that you can hear noise with no input and then complaining that you can hear noise isn't very useful either. The question is this - is your RECORDING too noisy? I'm a little suspicious of the Behringer preamp, and I have no idea of how much noise is coming out of your guitar amp, but otherwise, you have good gear and you should be able to find a good combination of settings so that one isn't all the way down and the other all the way up. This is where the -10/+4 switch will help you. It shifts you to a different operating level range. You'll still need to adjust things, but "half way up" is good. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) Thank you very much for you help, very informative! Yeah the biggest source of noise in my chain is my amp, its a small 8W half boutique valve amp and its a little hissy (I'm gonna try replacing the tubes in it as they are a 4 years old now). Noise is an issue in some of the things I record, if a play a clean track which has louder + softer / gentler pieces the noise is definitely noticeable / distracting during the gentle bits, however, there is certainly a little more noise then I'd expect givien what I know about my amp. I'll have another play with it tonight when I get home from work, I've have been sorting out problems with windows + sonar and other things (ended up reformatting my pc...) and it all seems to be running well now. Yeah, I managed to get sonar working in 24/96. I believe I can hear a difference between 16 + 24bit but not really the 48/96, but I seem to get less dropouts / more reliability at 96 so that was the decider. I think I still might look into upgrading my preamp to something middle range in the future. Thanks again for your help Jon |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
On Aug 14, 4:15*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
wrote: Hi, I'm a home hobbiest guitarist that for the past few years has been get interested in studio engineering / home recording, posted here a couple times over the years and its been a great help. *But I'm stuck again! Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load - can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it without speaker / mic / noise). *I take that mic level signal the JDX produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard. The behringer is a nice unit, especially for the price, however, I'm having a problem with the output levels since I bought the Layla 3G. The layla 3G has db modifers for the channel -10db and +4db I think. One is very quite and I presume is the more professional standard / level, the other one seems to take the signal it gets and amp it up a bit to the correct level. Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU meter in the echo console get just over half way. If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard when its *set on a normal level. *So what I have to do is turn the gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on (The extra noise is partly I think the noise of my amp which is unaudible on the -10db setting suddenly becomes audible). I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its dynamics (the sound levels I record is slashed in half) and noise becomes an issue as the signal volume : noise volume ratio is worse. If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more prevalent. *Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and its going to be towards 3/4-full vu / normal recording level, not half way. Can anyone help me know if this makes sense? *I'm thinking the solution is to buy a better pre amp, one that can hit the full / normal level of the sound card without the db boost / amp step. *Which is alright, I kind of wanted to upgrade my preamp because its almost an entry level preamp and is the cheapest link in my setup, *which I'm guessing is bad, because it seems to be doing a very important job. Does that sound good? *Dont really want to start asking for advice on what thing to buy etc becuase I realise thats annoying, but I was thinking of just getting a good quality mid level 1 or 2 channel preamp. *I dont know how much these things cost, but I'm expecting something in the £500 region - probably no point in spending more? Thanks for any help, I find its always helpful to get advice from people before speaking to sales people. Jon. Two routes he accept that leaving a lot of headroom going into a 24 bit system really strikes no sonic compromise given the SNR of the source. Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which will fit both your budget and your present and fufure needs, even if you eventually need something upscale from there. The RNP will remain a useful part of your kit. -- ha shut up and play your guitar Ah, glad you brought that up, that was one of the ones that caught my eye (2 channels and simple). It leads onto a question I was going to ask sometime, and that's about compressors. I was thinking about buying a rack compressor to sit somewhere before my soundcard, but I suppose recording with a little more headroom and compressing in the DAW may be more versatile (i.e. record with too much compression = fail). Hmmm, need to think about this one some more, but basically I read the RNP pairs with the real nice compressor (RNC) quite well. Thanks for the help |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
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#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
hank alrich wrote:
Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which will fit both your budget and your present and fufure needs, even if you eventually need something upscale from there. The RNP will remain a useful part of your kit. www.music123.com have refurb EMU 0202 at $79 ! geoff |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
hank alrich wrote:
The RNC and RNP go together like peanut butter and jelly. using the RNC via the RNP's inserts allows precise outlevel control ia the RNC instead of only the 6dB increments of the swtiched input sensitivty control for the RNP. It's a silly good combination, and nto only for what it costs. On the other hand, with 24 bit recording, there would seem little point in compression on recording, unless you are after a specific nuance imparted by that compressor. geoff |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
"geoff" wrote in message
hank alrich wrote: Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which will fit both your budget and your present and fufure needs, even if you eventually need something upscale from there. The RNP will remain a useful part of your kit. www.music123.com have refurb EMU 0202 at $79 ! Mono mic preamp, and perhaps a little fragile. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
"geoff" wrote in message ... | hank alrich wrote: | | The RNC and RNP go together like peanut butter and jelly. using the | RNC via the RNP's inserts allows precise outlevel control ia the RNC | instead of only the 6dB increments of the swtiched input sensitivty | control for the RNP. | | It's a silly good combination, and nto only for what it costs. | | On the other hand, with 24 bit recording, there would seem little point in | compression on recording, unless you are after a specific nuance imparted by | that compressor. | | geoff Convenience is one reason. I realize that it is most applicable for certain kinds of program material. Voice narration is one that immediately comes to mind. The other day I had a Chinese narrator in the studio for six hours. Tomorrow he's back for another six hours. When we are done, we will have recorded over 500 separate audio files. I used a little bit of compression plus a hard limiter in the input chain. The result was a good sounding recording at an ideal level for dropping scene-by-scene into a long video project. It saved a lot of time. Yes, I know I could have batch processed the files at the end of the session. Instead I chose input analogue processing, so that I could upload the files every hour to my FTP site, where I had two video editors downloading and dropping them into the videos. Steve King |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
Steve King wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message ... | hank alrich wrote: | | The RNC and RNP go together like peanut butter and jelly. using the | RNC via the RNP's inserts allows precise outlevel control ia the RNC | instead of only the 6dB increments of the swtiched input sensitivty | control for the RNP. | | It's a silly good combination, and nto only for what it costs. | | On the other hand, with 24 bit recording, there would seem little point in | compression on recording, unless you are after a specific nuance imparted by | that compressor. | | geoff Convenience is one reason. I realize that it is most applicable for certain kinds of program material. Voice narration is one that immediately comes to mind. The other day I had a Chinese narrator in the studio for six hours. Tomorrow he's back for another six hours. When we are done, we will have recorded over 500 separate audio files. I used a little bit of compression plus a hard limiter in the input chain. The result was a good sounding recording at an ideal level for dropping scene-by-scene into a long video project. It saved a lot of time. Yes, I know I could have batch processed the files at the end of the session. Instead I chose input analogue processing, so that I could upload the files every hour to my FTP site, where I had two video editors downloading and dropping them into the videos. Steve King There are plenty of practical reasons to use compression, EQ, etc., on the way in, and sometimes plenty of sonic reasons, too. -- ha shut up and play your guitar |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
On Aug 14, 12:20*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
wrote: On Aug 14, 4:15 pm, (hank alrich) wrote: wrote: Hi, I'm a home hobbiest guitarist that for the past few years has been get interested in studio engineering / home recording, posted here a couple times over the years and its been a great help. *But I'm stuck again! Due to my circumstances (apartment) I record direct from the amp head speaker out using a Radial JDX and a THD hotplate to act as a load - can record my amp silently (well, get the best approximation to it without speaker / mic / noise). *I take that mic level signal the JDX produces and stick into a Behringer tube ultragain preamp and the output of that into my Echo audio Layla 3G soundcard. The behringer is a nice unit, especially for the price, however, I'm having a problem with the output levels since I bought the Layla 3G.. The layla 3G has db modifers for the channel -10db and +4db I think.. One is very quite and I presume is the more professional standard / level, the other one seems to take the signal it gets and amp it up a bit to the correct level. Problem is the proper level is just too quite, if I adjust the gain up on my behringer it starts to clip / distort / hit a ceiling and my VU meter in the echo console get just over half way. If I put the ~4db switch on I think it is (cant remeber which way round it was) I get more noise and my preamp overloads the soundcard when its *set on a normal level. *So what I have to do is turn the gain down on my preamp, so that its peaks at ~1/2 way on the preamp vu meter but then the soundcard levels are spot on (The extra noise is partly I think the noise of my amp which is unaudible on the -10db setting suddenly becomes audible). I dont know much about this, but the proper setting is obviously not usable as its too quite and if I add gain in my DAW I might get it loud enough but to my understanding the sound will loose alot of its dynamics (the sound levels I record is slashed in half) and noise becomes an issue as the signal volume : noise volume ratio is worse.. If I use the +4db switch, I'm introducing a second pre amp stage which will add noise, amplify existing noise and is also like above effectively going to squash my dynamics and make noise more prevalent. *Also, I image my/any preamp will have a "sweet spot", and its going to be towards 3/4-full vu / normal recording level, not half way. Can anyone help me know if this makes sense? *I'm thinking the solution is to buy a better pre amp, one that can hit the full / normal level of the sound card without the db boost / amp step. *Which is alright, I kind of wanted to upgrade my preamp because its almost an entry level preamp and is the cheapest link in my setup, *which I'm guessing is bad, because it seems to be doing a very important job. Does that sound good? *Dont really want to start asking for advice on what thing to buy etc becuase I realise thats annoying, but I was thinking of just getting a good quality mid level 1 or 2 channel preamp. *I dont know how much these things cost, but I'm expecting something in the £500 region - probably no point in spending more? Thanks for any help, I find its always helpful to get advice from people before speaking to sales people. Jon. Two routes he accept that leaving a lot of headroom going into a 24 bit system really strikes no sonic compromise given the SNR of the source. Or buy an RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR Audio, which will fit both your budget and your present and fufure needs, even if you eventually need something upscale from there. The RNP will remain a useful part of your kit. -- ha shut up and play your guitar Ah, glad you brought that up, that was one of the ones that caught my eye (2 channels and simple). *It leads onto a question I was going to ask sometime, and that's about compressors. *I was thinking about buying a rack compressor to sit somewhere before my soundcard, but I suppose recording with a little more headroom and compressing in the DAW may be more versatile (i.e. record with too much compression = fail). *Hmmm, need to think about this one some more, but basically I read the *RNP pairs with the real nice compressor (RNC) quite well. Thanks for the help The RNC and RNP go together like peanut butter and jelly. using the RNC via the RNP's inserts allows precise outlevel control ia the RNC instead of only the 6dB increments of the swtiched input sensitivty control for the RNP. It's a silly good combination, and nto only for what it costs. -- ha There's a preamp that Scott Dorsey has recommended in the past, the Symetrix 202 (or maybe the 302 ?), but I'm not sure how they compare with the RNP. -Neb |
#13
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Microphone preamp advice
"nebulax" wrote ...
There's a preamp that Scott Dorsey has recommended in the past, the Symetrix 202 (or maybe the 302 ?), but I'm not sure how they compare with the RNP. So was the SSM2015 chip all that remarkable, or do new generations of chips beat its performance? Or was the Symetrix 202 just a unique combination of an inexpensive circuit that performed better than others in its price class back in the day? Why couldn't an inexpensive but good sounding similar mic pre be designed today with contemporary chips? Is a THAT 1510 or 1512 the modern equivalent? Or one of the National high performance audio op-amps? Couldn't something even better than the Symmetrix 202 be designed today at an equivalent price? |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
Richard Crowley wrote:
"nebulax" wrote ... There's a preamp that Scott Dorsey has recommended in the past, the Symetrix 202 (or maybe the 302 ?), but I'm not sure how they compare with the RNP. So was the SSM2015 chip all that remarkable, or do new generations of chips beat its performance? Or was the Symetrix 202 just a unique combination of an inexpensive circuit that performed better than others in its price class back in the day? It was a decent product. The SSM2015 and SSM2016 chips were surprisingly good. Remarkably good CMRR and low noise. The problem is that they were built on a semicustom array, and when PMI was bought out by AD, they had to discontinue them since they were actually being fabricated on a competitor's semicustom line. Why couldn't an inexpensive but good sounding similar mic pre be designed today with contemporary chips? Is a THAT 1510 or 1512 the modern equivalent? Or one of the National high performance audio op-amps? Couldn't something even better than the Symmetrix 202 be designed today at an equivalent price? Maybe. When the SSM2017 came out, it was substantially poorer-sounding than the SSM2016 and SSM2015 chips. It hasn't improved. The THAT 1512 sounds a whole lot better than the SSM2017, but I have not compared it with the older generation of chips. It would be interesting to get a Symetrix 302 (which uses the SSM2017) and drop a THAT 1512 in there and see how it does. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
Richard Crowley wrote:
"nebulax" wrote ... There's a preamp that Scott Dorsey has recommended in the past, the Symetrix 202 (or maybe the 302 ?), but I'm not sure how they compare with the RNP. So was the SSM2015 chip all that remarkable, or do new generations of chips beat its performance? Or was the Symetrix 202 just a unique combination of an inexpensive circuit that performed better than others in its price class back in the day? I have a 202SX, and it's just a relatively transparent pre. I can't really tell it from other cheap mic pres. It does not do the "DC to daylight" thing that, say, a D&R console input does. When the 202SX was current, mixer inputs weren't very good until you got to really expensive ones. And I think some of its heritage is as a ... uh, bootlegger's buddy (although how on Earth you got 16VAC to one in a bootleg rig is beyond me ). Why couldn't an inexpensive but good sounding similar mic pre be designed today with contemporary chips? Is a THAT 1510 or 1512 the modern equivalent? Or one of the National high performance audio op-amps? Couldn't something even better than the Symmetrix 202 be designed today at an equivalent price? It really would be interesting to know how it compares with the "good" Mackie or Behringer XLR inputs. I'm unconvinced that it's a real improvement over those, but ... I haven't exactly checked. -- Les Cargill |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Microphone preamp advice
Richard Crowley wrote:
Why couldn't an inexpensive but good sounding similar mic pre be designed today with contemporary chips? Certainly it could. But most of the cost of these things is in the box, connectors, switches, power supply, and transformers if it uses them, until you get into something really exotic like the Gordon, which has a whole lot of parts. The worst thing about a new preamp based on new ICs is that they couldn't market it as "All Class A" so people would buy some piece of tube crap instead. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
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