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#1
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
I've had to record this female operatic singer a couple times and
she always gives me trouble. See, I like to get the mic about a foot off the singer but she says "I don't like to have the mic that close" and she insists it be back about 3 or 4 feet. My thought at the time is: you do the singing, I'll do the recording. But I've just seen mention of this same thing happening to someone else when dealing with an operatic singer. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this? Is it something about operatic singers? Just trying to understand why they don't want to be close miked. |
#2
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
I've had to record this female operatic singer a couple times and
she always gives me trouble. See, I like to get the mic about a foot off the singer but she says "I don't like to have the mic that close" and she insists it be back about 3 or 4 feet. My thought at the time is: you do the singing, I'll do the recording. But I've just seen mention of this same thing happening to someone else when dealing with an operatic singer. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this? Is it something about operatic singers? Just trying to understand why they don't want to be close miked. You don't need to "understand" why someone feels that way, just acknowledge that they do and cut them some slack. If a close mic makes her uncomfortable, she might not sing as well. She might also feel that close miking does not present her voice in its best light. You might ask her to make test recordings both ways, and let her choose which she prefers. |
#3
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
William Sommerwerck wrote: If a close mic makes her uncomfortable, she might not sing as well. She might also feel that close miking does not present her voice in its best light. If she's a trained (and practicing) opera singer, she's singing for an audience, not a microphone. It's best to pull back several feet and let her do her thing. Put a mic too close and the next thing you'll want to do is compess and limit. Just let her bellow. It'll sound like opera. Now, if she's an opera singer singing something else, that's a different story. Just like learning how to sing opera, she'll have to learn to sing what she needs to sing. |
#4
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
William Sommerwerck wrote:
I've had to record this female operatic singer a couple times and she always gives me trouble. See, I like to get the mic about a foot off the singer but she says "I don't like to have the mic that close" and she insists it be back about 3 or 4 feet. My thought at the time is: you do the singing, I'll do the recording. But I've just seen mention of this same thing happening to someone else when dealing with an operatic singer. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this? Is it something about operatic singers? Just trying to understand why they don't want to be close miked. You don't need to "understand" why someone feels that way, just acknowledge that they do and cut them some slack. If a close mic makes her uncomfortable, she might not sing as well. She might also feel that close miking does not present her voice in its best light. Also remember that trained vocalists learn to make their voices radiate from a much larger part of their bodies than do typical untrained singers. So while you may be fine capturing the sound from the mouth of a pop singer, for an opera singer you may need to capture sound from as low as the rib cage and diaphragm up through the nose and sinus area. |
#5
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Remember, proper operatic singing technique is specifically intended to
project to the back row of a good-sized hall without assistance, while competing with orchestra. (It's been described as "a controlled scream".) I submit that you don't _want_ to close-mike that; not only will you make the performer feel crowded, it's simply the wrong way to treat the instrument. |
#6
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
wrote in message
oups.com I've had to record this female operatic singer a couple times and she always gives me trouble. See, I like to get the mic about a foot off the singer but she says "I don't like to have the mic that close" and she insists it be back about 3 or 4 feet. The key question is not what her preferences are doing to your ego, but what they are doing to the recording. If the room is quiet and not too live, you can pull this off, right? Its not just opera singers. One of the recording engineers for Motown told me that in the Detroit days, they always recorded the vocals with the singer standing about 4 feet back from the mic. Solves a lot of problems with breathing sounds and popping, right? ;-) My thought at the time is: you do the singing, I'll do the recording. But I've just seen mention of this same thing happening to someone else when dealing with an operatic singer. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this? I did SR for a wedding where the singer decided to stand way back from the mic during her solos, after working closer during the sound check. This was in a nasty, highly reverberent room where the main cluster is almost right over the front steps of the platform. So feedback was a serious concern. But, you don't have that worry, right? Is it something about operatic singers? Just trying to understand why they don't want to be close miked. |
#7
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
In article .com,
wrote: I've had to record this female operatic singer a couple times and she always gives me trouble. See, I like to get the mic about a foot off the singer but she says "I don't like to have the mic that close" and she insists it be back about 3 or 4 feet. My thought at the time is: you do the singing, I'll do the recording. But I've just seen mention of this same thing happening to someone else when dealing with an operatic singer. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this? Is it something about operatic singers? Just trying to understand why they don't want to be close miked. Because they aren't _supposed_ to be close-miked. The sound of the performer in a hall is as much the sound of the hall as of the performer. In the case of some of them, especially bassos and baritones but even tenors and occasionally altos, a lot of the sound comes from the chest as well as the mouth anyway. So miking the mouth only gets part of the sound. When operatic singers _have_ to be miked for PA, usually you will see a chest mike and a mouth mike both used. Personally, I think 3 or 4 feet is probably too close for a classical singer in a good room, but stick a finger in one ear, walk around the room and listen with the other ear. You want some ambience, but you don't want so much ambience that you lose intelligibility. But the room needs to be part of the sound. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#8
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
I've had to record this female operatic singer a couple times and
she always gives me trouble. See, I like to get the mic about a foot off the singer but she says "I don't like to have the mic that close" and she insists it be back about 3 or 4 feet. Which will obtain the proper sound for bel canto singing. My thought at the time is: you do the singing, I'll do the recording. How about "You pay my fee, I'll do whatever you request." But I've just seen mention of this same thing happening to someone else when dealing with an operatic singer. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this? Is it something about operatic singers? Just trying to understand why they don't want to be close miked. This is always the case. It's one instance where the singer really does know what she's talking about. An operatic vocalist is capable of incredible SPL & dynamic contrast, & you really really don't want to be right up on top of that. Scott Fraser |
#9
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Scott Fraser wrote:
This is always the case. It's one instance where the singer really does know what she's talking about. An operatic vocalist is capable of incredible SPL & dynamic contrast, & you really really don't want to be right up on top of that. I know of at least one situation where a performer, after repeatedly saying "get that out of my face" and not being listened to, belted out a note that destroyed a mike. Sometimes the artist really DOES know better. Be prepared to learn from some as well as to teach others. |
#11
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
wrote in message
oups.com... I've had to record this female operatic singer a couple times and she always gives me trouble. See, I like to get the mic about a foot off the singer but she says "I don't like to have the mic that close" and she insists it be back about 3 or 4 feet. My thought at the time is: you do the singing, I'll do the recording. But I've just seen mention of this same thing happening to someone else when dealing with an operatic singer. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this? Is it something about operatic singers? Just trying to understand why they don't want to be close miked. 1) Because that's not the prevailing practice. You pushed against her cultural norms. 2) Because the sound takes some space to develop, and includes more room sound than the average pop singer. 3) Because she's loud enough to overload almost any microphone, and she knows it. 4) Because she's an opera singer. What's the difference between an opera singer and the P.L.O.? You can negotiate with the P.L.O.. So back off, both literally and metaphorically. Peace, Paul |
#13
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
A quality small diaphragm mic from about 10 feet,with a good room, works
well in this situation. Check it out! Why are opera singers the most egotistcal of vocalists? When you're singing, mi mi mi mi all the time, you start believing your own hype! Tom "Paul Stamler" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... I've had to record this female operatic singer a couple times and she always gives me trouble. See, I like to get the mic about a foot off the singer but she says "I don't like to have the mic that close" and she insists it be back about 3 or 4 feet. My thought at the time is: you do the singing, I'll do the recording. But I've just seen mention of this same thing happening to someone else when dealing with an operatic singer. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this? Is it something about operatic singers? Just trying to understand why they don't want to be close miked. 1) Because that's not the prevailing practice. You pushed against her cultural norms. 2) Because the sound takes some space to develop, and includes more room sound than the average pop singer. 3) Because she's loud enough to overload almost any microphone, and she knows it. 4) Because she's an opera singer. What's the difference between an opera singer and the P.L.O.? You can negotiate with the P.L.O.. So back off, both literally and metaphorically. Peace, Paul |
#14
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
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#15
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Lines: 41
Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling X-Trace: enggpaojkliedbjjdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcbopp hhiibpkfomnjkelbkhkhiapfhgbgjdpifoeaeomchohimflkoo nmdeibkoklabngfkjolodlfmhobankneekaddjofbhkncnpdjn lfiihalnbd NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:05:33 EST Organization: BellSouth Internet Group Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 05:05:33 GMT Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1212781 On 2005-12-06 said: foot off the singer but she says "I don't like to have the mic that close" and she insists it be back about 3 or 4 feet. Which will obtain the proper sound for bel canto singing. My thought at the time is: you do the singing, I'll do the recording. But I've just seen mention of this same thing happening to someone else when dealing with an operatic singer. Anyways, I was wondering if anyone else has come across this? Is it something about operatic singers? Just trying to understand why they don't want to be close miked. This is always the case. It's one instance where the singer really does know what she's talking about. An operatic vocalist is capable of incredible SPL & dynamic contrast, & you really really don't want to be right up on top of that. This is right on the money advice for the op. My ex wife was an operatic soprano and she could really belt 'em out. I tried to teach her how to sing jazz and was amazed that this opera stuff is all she got out of a master's program, no learning about acoustics or mic technique for oding other things. SEems to me that when learning that much with an emphasis on pedagogy that other things should have been introduced, but this was in the late '60's when these folks didn't really want anything to do with so-called low-brow forms of music. YOu'll find with operatic singers that you want to record them in a larger room. THe small vocal booth is not an option for these folks. regards, Richard WEbb, Electric SPider Productions Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email address. |
#16
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
A question for those of you who have responded...
What mic would you use, by type and perhaps by brand and model, for this type of recording? |
#17
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Rory wrote:
A question for those of you who have responded... What mic would you use, by type and perhaps by brand and model, for this type of recording? Depends on the performer and the room. But if there is nothing _wrong_ with either, I'd take the goal of trying to capture the overall sound as accurately as possible. And that means some sort of small diaphragm mike, quite possibly an omni. You will find folks here who are partial to the Schoeps mikes, others who like the DPA or the Josephson Series Six. I am personally a fan of the older B&K measurement-style mikes. Microtech Gefell also makes some small omnis of similar design to the nickel-diaphragm B&K mikes. Then again, the Neumann KM-100 series has something to recommend it. All will do the job nicely enough, but they all sound a little bit different. I think the oratorio stuff I submitted to the last RAP set was done with a pair of the B&K 2615 mikes in baffled omni configuration. Give it a listen and see if you like it. It's very distant sounding, but that's the way it sounded live. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#18
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
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#19
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
"Rory" wrote in message
oups.com... A question for those of you who have responded... What mic would you use, by type and perhaps by brand and model, for this type of recording? Can't say for sure without knowing more about the hall, not to mention the layout of performers, but for a solo soprano a Neumann TLM-193 might be a good starting point. Or one of several Schoepses. Peace, Paul |
#21
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
"Rory" wrote in message
oups.com A question for those of you who have responded... What mic would you use, by type and perhaps by brand and model, for this type of recording? It's my understanding that a LD cardiod is the tool of choice for more distant micing of vocals. Next time I have one of these to deal with, I'll fetch my Rode NT1a. |
#22
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Edi Zubovic wrote:
I remember that Ivo Robic had always his own grey 421 and, not being quite a crooner, he really did know how to use it. Sometimes he has been holding it at his arm's length (Sennheiser 421 is a great mic for human voice Not is, was, the version 2 is somewhat different. but it is not built as a soloist microphone and has no LF roloff, neither by construction nor by a filter switch). Small Tuchel and Cannon, -n and -U have/had a bass roll off, large Tuchel, -2, had not, nor had the -n's that KinoVox converted to -U's for me, this because they used a custom rear and that screwed on as if it was the -2 rear end. I still have a MD 21 with that conversion, originally done for someone else. Very neat and very practical. Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* |
#23
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Rory" wrote in message roups.com A question for those of you who have responded... What mic would you use, by type and perhaps by brand and model, for this type of recording? It's my understanding that a LD cardiod is the tool of choice for more distant micing of vocals. Not really. The issue is that when you're getting a lot of room sound, the wonky off-axis response becomes a real problem. Then picture in your head what happens when the diameter of the diaphragm reaches a half wavelength at a given frequency.... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#24
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Arny Krueger wrote:
Next time I have one of these to deal with, I'll fetch my Rode NT1a. You may need a cleaner top end. Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* |
#25
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
In article ,
"Paul Stamler" wrote: "Rory" wrote in message oups.com... A question for those of you who have responded... What mic would you use, by type and perhaps by brand and model, for this type of recording? Can't say for sure without knowing more about the hall, not to mention the layout of performers, but for a solo soprano a Neumann TLM-193 might be a good starting point. Or one of several Schoepses. Peace, Paul I second the TLM-193. I've recorded several sopranos with it and always been satisfied, as have the singers. I've also used the Schoeps BLM with good results, although performers tend to ask, "is that a microphone?" when you use those mounted on Plexiglas plates. -Jay -- x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x |
#26
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "Rory" wrote in message oups.com A question for those of you who have responded... What mic would you use, by type and perhaps by brand and model, for this type of recording? It's my understanding that a LD cardiod is the tool of choice for more distant micing of vocals. Not really. The issue is that when you're getting a lot of room sound, the wonky off-axis response becomes a real problem. Well then I'll mount up some mics of various flavors and listen to the results later on. The classic level-matched, time-synched, bias-controlled listening test with identical stimulus should be easy. ;-) Then picture in your head what happens when the diameter of the diaphragm reaches a half wavelength at a given frequency... Yes, the LD mic gets more directional at high frequencies, a given. Seems to me that could be either the good news or the bad news. ;-) |
#27
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
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#28
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
"Peter Larsen" wrote in
message Arny Krueger wrote: Next time I have one of these to deal with, I'll fetch my Rode NT1a. You may need a cleaner top end. I need a bigger bank account. ;-) |
#29
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message Not really. The issue is that when you're getting a lot of room sound, the wonky off-axis response becomes a real problem. Well then I'll mount up some mics of various flavors and listen to the results later on. Definitely do it, and try it with ORTF or X-Y pairs which will tend to exaggerate the problems since the direct sound is coming from off-axis. You can hear the stuff going on even with a single mike pointed at the performer, though. The classic level-matched, time-synched, bias-controlled listening test with identical stimulus should be easy. ;-) For a really interesting thing, try the AKG 414 in all the different possible patterns, and listen to how the character and spectrum of the room sound changes, not just the level. The effect is less pronounced with the U87, but it's not subtle with any of the dual-diaphragm types. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#30
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message Not really. The issue is that when you're getting a lot of room sound, the wonky off-axis response becomes a real problem. Well then I'll mount up some mics of various flavors and listen to the results later on. Definitely do it, and try it with ORTF or X-Y pairs which will tend to exaggerate the problems since the direct sound is coming from off-axis. You can hear the stuff going on even with a single mike pointed at the performer, though. I have 3 X-Y pairs in use or idle and available most of the time. Usually there is at least one sitting around. XY pairs are interesting test equipment and also increase one's options in the mix. The classic level-matched, time-synched, bias-controlled listening test with identical stimulus should be easy. ;-) For a really interesting thing, try the AKG 414 in all the different possible patterns, and listen to how the character and spectrum of the room sound changes, not just the level. The effect is less pronounced with the U87, but it's not subtle with any of the dual-diaphragm types. Please see other comments about my need for a larger bank account. ;-) |
#31
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
"WillStG" writes:
wrote: I've had to record this female operatic singer a couple times and she always gives me trouble. See, I like to get the mic about a Watch out, Will! The koolaid drinkers and career haters will attempt to make these your fault! sounding hall miced with a Decca Tree/M50's for mains, and they *still* added reverb in on some mics. (...YOU can't have any reverb until you give away all of yours to others, comrade...) hard for an Operatic singers to distort a U87 at the mic, and even if (...You have NO right to have any distortion until you yourself have been distorted...) vbg Keep up the good fight. But seriously, you're right about the 'verb and mic distances. Properly trained (somewhat rare these days), the human voice is one of the most powerful instruments relative to its size. Depending on where the program is going, I might also add a little low-ratio, inaudible-as-possible comp just to make things "fit" slightly better. Frank Stearns Mobile Audio -- |
#32
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
One thing I have noticed, though, is that rappers never tell you to move
the mic back and opera singers never shoot themselves in the head with pen guns. Why is that? -- remove 555 from address to reply |
#33
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Paul Stamler wrote On 12/06/05 10:11,: 4) Because she's an opera singer. What's the difference between an opera singer and the P.L.O.? You can negotiate with the P.L.O.. Uh, if you look at the history of the Israeli/P.L.O negotiations, you'll find the P.L.O. have not negotiated. They've been intrasigent and given nothing, no compromises in thirty years of so called negotiations. So while your post is amusing, it is wrong. I'd rather negotiate with the opera singer because they don't blow themselves up when they don't get their way. --fletch |
#34
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Peter Larsen wrote On 12/06/05 09:23,: Many reasons have been mentioned, one more is that they need the room for their Stage Ego and they need their Stage Ego to sing. If the practical and musical reasons do not persuade you, that one ought. Do not discuss with an artist when the Stage Ego is powered up. Stage Ego... yeah, I've had to deal with that alot, and from musicians who have no business strutting that thing out, either. But, you believe many things when people continue to tell you it is so... And it is so true that you cannot have any kind of discussion when the Stage Ego is engaged. It has to be the most impenetrable shield known to humankind. Nothing gets through. --fletch |
#35
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
wrote in message t... This is right on the money advice for the op. My ex wife was an operatic soprano and she could really belt 'em out. I tried to teach her how to sing jazz and was amazed that this opera stuff is all she got out of a master's program, no learning about acoustics or mic technique What does mic technique have to do with opera ? geoff |
#36
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Peter Larsen" wrote in message Arny Krueger wrote: Next time I have one of these to deal with, I'll fetch my Rode NT1a. You may need a cleaner top end. I need a bigger bank account. ;-) There are smaller Røde mics, but you could go for the small Neumann, I think it is the KM 184. Sounded real nice on wimmmen singer when I tried a pair way long time ago, what sounded less nice was that they clipped the inputs of my - then - unmodded A77 telegraphone, a legacy apparatus using something just like gaffa, but smaller and not adhesive out of the box, it had to be stored for a decade to get suitably sticky, to record on by magnetizing it. Oh, and I was 10 feet away because it was in Jaegersborg Church, a nice location with a modestly sized "bach type" organ. DGG btw. liked that location back then, dunno about now. Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* |
#37
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
"Geoff@work" wrote:
What does mic technique have to do with opera ? Opeara singers can always get 10 dB louder, even when you think they no way possibly ever can. geoff Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* |
#38
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
uh, dude.
reality check: take a look at the Three Tenors, or the Irish Tenors. Look where the mics are... about 3-4 feet away. Maybe she knows something you don't. |
#39
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
Frank Stearns wrote in
: Depending on where the program is going, I might also add a little low-ratio, inaudible-as-possible comp just to make things "fit" slightly better. I have successfully applied enormous compression (5:1 up to 15:1) on sopranos will only minor ill effects by limiting the monumental momentary peaks. A really qualified soprano can attack a high note at 20 dB above the nominal level of the remainder of the note. Lopping off 80% of that peak delicately had an audible impact on the performance--but only if you know it was there. The trick is to leave enough to get noticeably louder, but not enough to force the remainder of the concert into the noise floor. |
#40
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What's with operatic singers? Or is it just my luck?
In article .com,
wrote: uh, dude. reality check: take a look at the Three Tenors, or the Irish Tenors. Look where the mics are... about 3-4 feet away. I might add that this is also considered close placement for PA work. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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