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If all (properly designed) amps sound the same, how do I decide which
amp to buy?

Is it just a case of choosing one with sufficient power output and how
do I determine this?

[Peter Wieck]

On Oct 12, 10:59*am, wrote:

Is it just a case of choosing one with sufficient power output and how
do I determine this?

In a word, YES.

And that leads you down a long, difficult path of which choosing the
amp is the *very least* of the issues.

a) Your speakers: Determine their efficiency - that should be a
published specification. And the speakers are the _SINGLE_ most
difficult choice in a system from which all else will derive.

b) The type of music you listen to - yes, all good equipment is
equally capable of reproducing all types of music *WITHIN ITS
CAPACITY. But it is an important parameter.

c) The Peak-to-Average ratio of that music you chose above typically.
Highly compress R&R or Heavy Metal with a less than 10dB P/A is very
different from some classical or other forms with an occasional 20+dB
P/A. NOTE: few recordings these days are good enough to test the best
of systems - so this is an important parameter.

So, if you have very low efficiency speakers with rating of say...
86dB @ 1 watt, and you listen to heavy metal all day, at ear-bleeding
levels, you might need a 100 watt amp and be happy as a clam. 106dB is
LOUD - louder than healthy in any case. But know that the next step is
a 1000 watt amp.

If you listen to gregorian chant at moderate levels, those same
speakers may be perfectly happy with a 10 watt amp. The P/A of
Gregorian chant is about 6dB at best.

And if you commonly listen to well-recorded full-orchestra music at
moderate levels, you might be right back with that 1000 watt amp, as
the 100 watt amp won't cut it at the heavy peaks.

Now, there are some other things that lead to William's statement that
"they don't all sound the same" as at the limits, tubes behaved
differently than SS, and the how power-supplies are designed can also
affect sound at the margins. "Properly" covers a huge range and some
conscious choices on your part. Far too many and complicated to be
entirely covered here.

But what it does come down to is that a system capable of handling the
most difficult signal well will handle anything well, but you have to
start somewhere - and that will be with the speakers - the amp
following from them.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[[email protected]]

On Oct 12, 10:10*pm, Peter Wieck wrote:
On Oct 12, 10:59*am, wrote:

Is it just a case of choosing one with sufficient power output and how
do I determine this?

In a word, YES.

And that leads you down a long, difficult path of which choosing the
amp is the *very least* of the issues.

a) Your speakers: Determine their efficiency - that should be a
published specification. And the speakers are the _SINGLE_ most
difficult choice in a system from which all else will derive.

b) The type of music you listen to - yes, all good equipment is
equally capable of reproducing all types of music *WITHIN ITS
CAPACITY. But it is an important parameter.

c) The Peak-to-Average ratio of that music you chose above typically.
Highly compress R&R or Heavy Metal with a less than 10dB P/A is very
different from some classical or other forms with an occasional 20+dB
P/A. NOTE: few recordings these days are good enough to test the best
of systems - so this is an important parameter.

So, if you have very low efficiency speakers with rating of say...
86dB @ 1 watt, and you listen to heavy metal all day, at ear-bleeding
levels, you might need a 100 watt amp and be happy as a clam. 106dB is
LOUD - louder than healthy in any case. But know that the next step is
a 1000 watt amp.

If you listen to gregorian chant at moderate levels, those same
speakers may be perfectly happy with a 10 watt amp. The P/A of
Gregorian chant is about 6dB at best.

And if you commonly listen to well-recorded full-orchestra music at
moderate levels, you might be right back with that 1000 watt amp, as
the 100 watt amp won't cut it at the heavy peaks.

Now, there are some other things that lead to William's statement that
"they don't all sound the same" as at the limits, tubes behaved
differently than SS, and the how power-supplies are designed can also
affect sound at the margins. *"Properly" covers a huge range and some
conscious choices on your part. Far too many and complicated to be
entirely covered here.

But what it does come down to is that a system capable of handling the
most difficult signal well will handle anything well, but you have to
start somewhere - and that will be with the speakers - the amp
following from them.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I hope I haven't stirred anything up!
Genuine question.
Room: 11'x13'x8' high (quite small for the size of speakers)
Speakers: Focal Chorus 714v 130Wmax/90W nom 91dB/W
Pre-amp: (when I purchase it) Benchmark DAC1
Classical music (including orchestral) at moderate levels.
Budget £1000 if I need to but less if I can get a well made power amp
with sufficient power.

Phileas

[bob]

On Oct 13, 2:48*pm, wrote:

Room: 11'x13'x8' high (quite small for the size of speakers)
Speakers: Focal Chorus 714v 130Wmax/90W nom 91dB/W
Pre-amp: (when I purchase it) Benchmark DAC1
Classical music (including orchestral) at moderate levels.
Budget £1000 if I need to but less if I can get a well made power amp
with sufficient power.

I should think you could buy a 100w/ch Rotel for half that. That
should be more power than you will ever need.

bob

[Peter Wieck]

On Oct 13, 2:48*pm, wrote:

I hope I haven't stirred anything up!
Genuine question.
Room: 11'x13'x8' high (quite small for the size of speakers)
Speakers: Focal Chorus 714v 130Wmax/90W nom 91dB/W
Pre-amp: (when I purchase it) Benchmark DAC1
Classical music (including orchestral) at moderate levels.
Budget £1000 if I need to but less if I can get a well made power amp
with sufficient power.

Phileas- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You haven't stirred up much - the occasional Hellbender (for the sake
of the moderators, I mean this -- http://www.hellbenders.org/images/hellbendernc.jpg
) will pop up when it perceives an opportunity to intrude.

11 x 13 x 8 as a room size is not so very large or small, and speaker
placement will be critical (depending on furnishings, number of
windows and doors, how parallel the walls are to each other and the
ceiling to the floor (standing waves)), and how you choose to listen
and choose to define your soundstage - do you want a single sweet-spot
or is a wider, more diffuse listening area desired. Further to this,
per the specifications, those speakers do not seem to have that
terribly strong a bass - so you may wish to play with placement to
enhance bass, or not, as you choose.

They are moderately efficient speakers. On the assumption that you are
listening at a fairly moderate level, it is unlikely that your average
will be more than one (1) watt of power, in your case, a 100 watt amp
will be fine. 200 watts is 3dB better, see more below.

If the commonly accepted pain threshold is 120dB at one meter with
those speakers, that would take 1000 watts. 100 watts will give you
111 dB at 1 meter - LOUD. No conversation possible other than
shouting. 200 watts will give you 114dB, and that could make a
difference - further, 200 watts is a nice round number and right about
the middle of the range of "high-power" amplifiers available out
there. Given your choice of signal I would opt higher rather than
lower. But no lower than 100 watts in any case.

Writing for myself, I *will not* recommend brands of equipment other
than vintage. First, I have limited experience with modern (last 10
years) "high-end" stuff - and what I have is towards the belief that
most of it sounds not much different than its well-made, well-cared-
for predecessors except for the cost. I also tend to reject out-of-
hand goods made on the Pacific Rim with specific reference to China.
Whether that is rational or not is another discussion, but it is my
choice. NOTE: This opinion applies to ELECTRONICS only. Speakers are
an entirely different issue.

At this moment, my front-line SS system is a pair of Maggie speakers
driven by a Citation 16 power-amp (170wpc/8/RMS) itself driven by a
Revox A720 tuner/pre-amp. This in a room that is 17' x 23' x 9'-10",
two windows, two French doors, all plaster walls & ceiling, soapstone
fireplace, hardwood floors, area rugs and soft furniture. Does OK, but
Maggies suck up power.

The main tube system (room = 17 x 14 x 9'-10", + bay window, two
French doors, three windows, no fireplace) is a pair of AR3a speakers,
Scott LK150 power-amp (75wpc/8/RMS), driven by a Dynaco PAS3/FM3
combination - all tweaked and thoroughly 'gone over'. In our location,
even a moderate FM tuner is just fine for most purposes and as I run
from my own local transmitter most of the time anyway, about anything
would be fine even were it deaf-as-a-stone otherwise.

There are other systems in operation, but you get the idea that I am
more into the vintage stuff than the recent stuff. Most anything can
become "well made" with effort, even an original issue Dynaco ST120 -
but circuit-design limitations are a much more problematic issue.

Be sure you can audition your choice(s) for some period of time. I am
absolutely not with Arny on the matter-of-moments bit, but neither
would I think 'months' are necessary. I would suggest that a minimum
of say.... 30 hours or so, spread into at least 4 separate listening
sessions (or more) with a large variety of signal *with which you are
intimately familiar* would be a good test.

Absolutely listen to the MUSIC, not the amp. Does the amp disappear?
Do you get restless when listening? Are you drawn into the music, or
does it pass you by? If, as it happens, you fall asleep in the middle
of a session and wake up with a start when the music stops - THAT is a
very good sign. If you *can't* sleep around the music, that is a BAD
sign. And you are spending a serious chunk of money - so you are
entitled to take your time and be sure.

Above all, enjoy the process and the result.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA