Hi All -

I'm itching for an upgrade (no good reason to be honest). Looking for
opinions on what would be a good way to spend my money.

Currently my system is a very simple one - an Arcam Solo with Kef iQ9s.
I listen to a lot of classical, but many other styles as well (pretty
much everything really, but I care most about how the classical
sounds).

I'm willing to spend about $2000. The big catch is that the place I
got my speakers from will allow you to upgrade with 100% trade in value
in the first year if you buy speakers twice as much as the ones you
have. This offer would expire for me sometime in the fall.

I've considered a power amp (use my solo as the pre) - looking at a
Rogue Audio Stereo 90 tube amp (I like the tube sound, but I'm not
obsessed with the idea). Currently the solo is giving me 35 wpc, but
I'm starting to think that it may not quite have the power I need for
demanding work like Bruckner or Mahler. Things seem to get a little
messy in strong passages, but it could very well just be room dynamics
(which I'll be spending some time on this week).

Whatcha think? Is 35 wpc enough for these speakers in a generally
large room at moderate volumes? Would I even notice an amplifier
upgrade with my Kefs? Should I forget all that and spend the money on
a sub, SACD player or some other item?

Thanks
j.

Hi Jason -

I'd consider adding an Outlaw LFW-1 or 2 powered sub. That would add power
and a foundation of low bass to let the orchestra "speak" with authority.
Wouldn't cost nearly the $2000 (more like $400-600). Use some of that to
get a dedicated SACD player (the C2000ES comes to mind as a good match -
about $300). Blow the rest on music.

Just M2CW.

Harry
"j." wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi All -

I'm itching for an upgrade (no good reason to be honest). Looking for
opinions on what would be a good way to spend my money.

Currently my system is a very simple one - an Arcam Solo with Kef iQ9s.
I listen to a lot of classical, but many other styles as well (pretty
much everything really, but I care most about how the classical
sounds).

I'm willing to spend about $2000. The big catch is that the place I
got my speakers from will allow you to upgrade with 100% trade in value
in the first year if you buy speakers twice as much as the ones you
have. This offer would expire for me sometime in the fall.

I've considered a power amp (use my solo as the pre) - looking at a
Rogue Audio Stereo 90 tube amp (I like the tube sound, but I'm not
obsessed with the idea). Currently the solo is giving me 35 wpc, but
I'm starting to think that it may not quite have the power I need for
demanding work like Bruckner or Mahler. Things seem to get a little
messy in strong passages, but it could very well just be room dynamics
(which I'll be spending some time on this week).

Whatcha think? Is 35 wpc enough for these speakers in a generally
large room at moderate volumes? Would I even notice an amplifier
upgrade with my Kefs? Should I forget all that and spend the money on
a sub, SACD player or some other item?

Thanks
j.

Harry Lavo wrote:
Hi Jason -

I'd consider adding an Outlaw LFW-1 or 2 powered sub. That would add power
and a foundation of low bass to let the orchestra "speak" with authority.
Wouldn't cost nearly the $2000 (more like $400-600). Use some of that to
get a dedicated SACD player (the C2000ES comes to mind as a good match -
about $300). Blow the rest on music.

Just M2CW.


Haha - yeah, blowing the rest on music is probably not a bad idea. I
may take your advice. I wasn't sure how well a sub would fit into the
whole picture, only because my past experience with them has just been
in home theater setups and car audio - in both cases they were just
used to make loud booming noises Maybe a nice refined sub would do
me well.

SACD may be a good idea as well. I've been considering a new source of
some sort - thought of a turntable, but likely SACD might fit my world
better.

Thanks for the advice!
Anyone else got anything to say on the matter?

In article . com,
"j." wrote:

Hi All -

I'm itching for an upgrade (no good reason to be honest). Looking for
opinions on what would be a good way to spend my money.

Currently my system is a very simple one - an Arcam Solo with Kef iQ9s.
I listen to a lot of classical, but many other styles as well (pretty
much everything really, but I care most about how the classical
sounds).

I'm willing to spend about $2000. The big catch is that the place I
got my speakers from will allow you to upgrade with 100% trade in value
in the first year if you buy speakers twice as much as the ones you
have. This offer would expire for me sometime in the fall.

I've considered a power amp (use my solo as the pre) - looking at a
Rogue Audio Stereo 90 tube amp (I like the tube sound, but I'm not
obsessed with the idea). Currently the solo is giving me 35 wpc, but
I'm starting to think that it may not quite have the power I need for
demanding work like Bruckner or Mahler. Things seem to get a little
messy in strong passages, but it could very well just be room dynamics
(which I'll be spending some time on this week).

Whatcha think? Is 35 wpc enough for these speakers in a generally
large room at moderate volumes? Would I even notice an amplifier
upgrade with my Kefs? Should I forget all that and spend the money on
a sub, SACD player or some other item?

How large is large? I took a look at the Kef iQ9 specs and 91 dB
sensitivity should be easy on your amp. Unfortunately, the speakers I
like under $2k, the Magnepan 1.6, wouldn't be so easy. Tubes? JA, in his
measurement sidebar to the Stereophile review, cautions that the KEFs
might sound bright with tube amps with high source impedance. In
general, it would take a big increase in amp power to be noticeable in
casual listening.

Spend some time on the listening area. If the Solo still seems short of
breath on those orchestral climaxes, you could do worse than adding an
Arcam amplifier or, at risk of adding complexity to the system, a
powered subwoofer.

Stephen

PS Used Quad 63s are often available under $2k.

How large is large? I took a look at the Kef iQ9 specs and 91 dB
sensitivity should be easy on your amp. Unfortunately, the speakers I
like under $2k, the Magnepan 1.6, wouldn't be so easy. Tubes? JA, in his
measurement sidebar to the Stereophile review, cautions that the KEFs
might sound bright with tube amps with high source impedance. In
general, it would take a big increase in amp power to be noticeable in
casual listening.

Spend some time on the listening area. If the Solo still seems short of
breath on those orchestral climaxes, you could do worse than adding an
Arcam amplifier or, at risk of adding complexity to the system, a
powered subwoofer.

Stephen

PS Used Quad 63s are often available under $2k.

The room isn't huge really; it's about 14'x24'x8' with hardwood floors
and large, thick curtains behind the speakers. I'll be spending some
time doing what I can with the listening area, but I have to deal with
girlfriend-induced limitations

I've read that same Stereophile review, and was concerned by that as
well. I have a tube headphone amp, so I can probably get my fix that
way and save the hassle.

You mentioned speakers for under $2k - as I said, if I took advantage
of my dealers 'upgrade' program, I'd be able to use 100% of the cost of
my Kefs against a new set, so I could then afford something in the
$3500 range. This is a devious tactic on their part because of course
it leads me into the "If I'm EVER going to upgrade my speakers, I
better do it now!" mentality.

....but keep that in mind - the speaker budget would be well above the
budget for anything else.

Thanks for the input.
j.

In article . com,
"j." wrote:

How large is large?...

The room isn't huge really; it's about 14'x24'x8' with hardwood floors
and large, thick curtains behind the speakers. I'll be spending some
time doing what I can with the listening area, but I have to deal with
girlfriend-induced limitations

I've read that same Stereophile review, and was concerned by that as
well. I have a tube headphone amp, so I can probably get my fix that
way and save the hassle.

You could try it as a preamp for fun.

You mentioned speakers for under $2k - as I said, if I took advantage
of my dealers 'upgrade' program, I'd be able to use 100% of the cost of
my Kefs against a new set, so I could then afford something in the
$3500 range. This is a devious tactic on their part because of course
it leads me into the "If I'm EVER going to upgrade my speakers, I
better do it now!" mentality.

...but keep that in mind - the speaker budget would be well above the
budget for anything else.

Hmm. Magneplanar 3.6s wouldn't be a match for the amp either. I wonder
if the M-Ls in that range have a powered woofer. You might sense that I
like non-conventional speakers! so I'm at a disadvantage recommending
dynamic models in your price range that are amp-friendly. The ones I've
heard (PSB, Paradigm) would sound okay Solo'd but would ultimately need
more watts.

Good luck!

Stephen

MINe 109 wrote:
In article . com,
"j." wrote:

How large is large?...

The room isn't huge really; it's about 14'x24'x8' with hardwood floors
and large, thick curtains behind the speakers. I'll be spending some
time doing what I can with the listening area, but I have to deal with
girlfriend-induced limitations

I've read that same Stereophile review, and was concerned by that as
well. I have a tube headphone amp, so I can probably get my fix that
way and save the hassle.

You could try it as a preamp for fun.

You mentioned speakers for under $2k - as I said, if I took advantage
of my dealers 'upgrade' program, I'd be able to use 100% of the cost of
my Kefs against a new set, so I could then afford something in the
$3500 range. This is a devious tactic on their part because of course
it leads me into the "If I'm EVER going to upgrade my speakers, I
better do it now!" mentality.

...but keep that in mind - the speaker budget would be well above the
budget for anything else.

Hmm. Magneplanar 3.6s wouldn't be a match for the amp either. I wonder
if the M-Ls in that range have a powered woofer. You might sense that I
like non-conventional speakers! so I'm at a disadvantage recommending
dynamic models in your price range that are amp-friendly. The ones I've
heard (PSB, Paradigm) would sound okay Solo'd but would ultimately need
more watts.

Good luck!

Stephen

I have a set of 5 Paradigms for my home theater setup - I've found them
to be great for what I paid for them.

If I went the speaker upgrade route (taking advantage of the trade
program my dealer has), I'd have to stick with speakers they sold. I
know they have B&W, Lynn, and obviously Kef - but they have others
(brands listed on their site: www.soundplus.ca).

Right now they do have an Arcam power amp (Alpha 10 p3) that was a
demonstration model for a good deal, and a couple of demo powered subs
(A PMC TLE 1c and a McIntosh SL1). Maybe I should be looking that way.
...after all I like my Kefs, I just started feeling the need to
upgrade after getting my HD650s and a tube headphone amp and now my
main system just doesn't seem the same... but I have a feeling that
matching that combo in a non-headphone system would cost a silly
amount.

....its also possible that this weekend when I get some time to fiddle
I'll find my issues are solved my throwing a rug down on my hard wood
in front of the speakers

Again - thanks for all the responses!

j.

"j." wrote in message
ps.com...

Harry Lavo wrote:
Hi Jason -

I'd consider adding an Outlaw LFW-1 or 2 powered sub. That would add
power
and a foundation of low bass to let the orchestra "speak" with authority.
Wouldn't cost nearly the $2000 (more like $400-600). Use some of that to
get a dedicated SACD player (the C2000ES comes to mind as a good match -
about $300). Blow the rest on music.

Just M2CW.


Haha - yeah, blowing the rest on music is probably not a bad idea. I
may take your advice. I wasn't sure how well a sub would fit into the
whole picture, only because my past experience with them has just been
in home theater setups and car audio - in both cases they were just
used to make loud booming noises Maybe a nice refined sub would do
me well.

The outlaw LMF-1 not only delivers really low bass, but is tuneful and
musical as well. There are others as well, but generally not as good a
value.


SACD may be a good idea as well. I've been considering a new source of
some sort - thought of a turntable, but likely SACD might fit my world
better.

Thanks for the advice!
Anyone else got anything to say on the matter?


Don't be scared off by "not enough music available". 3850 and rising on
http://www.sa-cd.net/home . That's enough to keep me busy buying items I
want for some time (today took delivery of Brothers in Arms, Bob Marley,
John Hiatt, the CSO playing "Pines" and "Fountains" of Rome, and two
others). My monthly quota. Since you care about the sound of classical
music, I think you'll find SACD a natural.

Harry Lavo wrote:

Don't be scared off by "not enough music available". 3850 and rising on
http://www.sa-cd.net/home . That's enough to keep me busy buying items I
want for some time (today took delivery of Brothers in Arms, Bob Marley,
John Hiatt, the CSO playing "Pines" and "Fountains" of Rome, and two
others). My monthly quota. Since you care about the sound of classical
music, I think you'll find SACD a natural.

I wouldn't be scared off by the lack of selection - pretty much all the
classical and jazz shops around here stock plenty of SACDs. I've
looked at some of them longingly many times!

My concern would more be - is it worth it with just a two speaker
system? I have a HT setup as well, and its great for movies, but its
just not where I do my musical listening. Is the sound quality
increase so much better than what I'd be getting from the Solo (which I
think has a pretty good CD player in it) that it would be worth it even
with just a stereo system and not 5.1? Certainly I've heard SACDs
before and was impressed, but they were being played on a stereo many
times more expensive than mine, so its not exactly a good test.

Thoughts?

wrote:


I would suggest an upgrade in power to at least an 80-100 watts per
channel amp like a Rotel, then splurge the rest on a Benchmark DAC1.

CD

So you feel I'd get more out of a new DAC rather than an SACD player?
I believe it was Harry suggesting the SACD player - any comment on
that? (love to start the arguments )

I'm somewhat surprised that no one really seems to think that I should
put the money into the speakers given that it is the only item I can
trade in at 100% of the value. I often read the advice that your
speakers should be the most expensive component of your stereo by a
good margin - but I guess that says good things about my Kefs then if
no one really thinks they are in dire need of replacement.

Oh the decisions! Maybe I should just spend my money on more tickets
to the symphony!

Harry Lavo wrote:


The outlaw LMF-1 not only delivers really low bass, but is tuneful and
musical as well. There are others as well, but generally not as good a
value.

I took a look at the Outlaw products on your recommendation. They
certainly seem like a good value, but my main concern is that no one
around here (that I can find) carries them. From what I can tell, they
only sell direct - so it makes it hard to give it a listen.

If it was for my HT system, I wouldn't be as concerned, but since I am
looking for something strictly musical, it makes it difficult just
because all the reviews I can find talk about subs in terms of HT work
where impact is the key. If I were to add a sub I'd want to simply
extend my reach down and not mess with the existing sound too much.

Is it pretty common for people to use subs in pure music stereos with
floor standing loudspeakers? ...specifically people who listen to
classical?

MINe 109 wrote:

How large is large? I took a look at the Kef iQ9 specs and 91 dB
sensitivity should be easy on your amp. Unfortunately, the speakers I
like under $2k, the Magnepan 1.6, wouldn't be so easy. Tubes? JA, in his
measurement sidebar to the Stereophile review, cautions that the KEFs
might sound bright with tube amps with high source impedance. In
general, it would take a big increase in amp power to be noticeable in
casual listening.

....Alright - I emailed Rogue Audio about the specific comment made by
Stereophile and linked to the measurements page that demonstrated the
impedance spike. Mark O'Brien (who I believe is their main engineer)
emailed me back directly almost right away and said their amps had no
issues driving 'complex reactive loads', but suggested (based on the
Stereophile measurements) that I use the 4ohm taps. Since I come from
a world where there are no separate taps for 4ohm loads (all the amps
I've had just use the same taps either handle the load or don't) - I
have absolutely no idea what effect this will have on things. ...and
while it sure would be fun to just take the amp and mess with it, that
would be an expensive journey.

Man, the choices. It was easier when I had a small budget and no
equipment

On 23 Jun 2006 10:12:49 -0700, "j." wrote:

Is it pretty common for people to use subs in pure music stereos with
floor standing loudspeakers? ...specifically people who listen to
classical?

Not common but some of us do.

Kal

j. wrote:

Hi All -

I'm itching for an upgrade (no good reason to be honest). Looking for
opinions on what would be a good way to spend my money.

Currently my system is a very simple one - an Arcam Solo with Kef iQ9s.
I listen to a lot of classical, but many other styles as well (pretty
much everything really, but I care most about how the classical
sounds).

I'm willing to spend about $2000. The big catch is that the place I
got my speakers from will allow you to upgrade with 100% trade in value
in the first year if you buy speakers twice as much as the ones you
have. This offer would expire for me sometime in the fall.

I've considered a power amp (use my solo as the pre) - looking at a
Rogue Audio Stereo 90 tube amp (I like the tube sound, but I'm not
obsessed with the idea). Currently the solo is giving me 35 wpc, but
I'm starting to think that it may not quite have the power I need for
demanding work like Bruckner or Mahler. Things seem to get a little
messy in strong passages, but it could very well just be room dynamics
(which I'll be spending some time on this week).

Whatcha think? Is 35 wpc enough for these speakers in a generally
large room at moderate volumes? Would I even notice an amplifier
upgrade with my Kefs? Should I forget all that and spend the money on
a sub, SACD player or some other item?

Thanks
j.

Get an RAL program for your PC and a mic (some cheap mics that come with
PC's are actually OK) and run sweeps etc and plot your room. Fixing the
room or setup will usually yield much bigger improvements than
equipment. Given you want more low end this would be imperative.
Adding a sub to a poor room will make things worse. Additionally this
program will help you place your sub. Are all first order reflections
tamed? Including behind your head (if you sit close) or the ceiling?
Based on running these programs I am now cautious of using subs. I have
speakers rated to only 43hz flat. However when setup properly in my
room I am only 3db down at 30hz. The room can fill in the bottom end
for you. Unless one has mini-monitors or has to set things up in a bad
spot (WAF or maybe a home theater etc) I think subs are a bad choice.

The Stereophile review of this speaker cautions a tube amp due to high
imp in the upper end. Additionally the speakers look to have a mid bass
hump but go down to below 40hz. My guess is you have a very large room
or placement issues. I would try setting them up right and maybe in
near field so you can hear the system with as little room interference
as possible. This should tell you if you need an equipment change or a
room change.

j. wrote:

MINe 109 wrote:

How large is large? I took a look at the Kef iQ9 specs and 91 dB
sensitivity should be easy on your amp. Unfortunately, the speakers I
like under $2k, the Magnepan 1.6, wouldn't be so easy. Tubes? JA, in his
measurement sidebar to the Stereophile review, cautions that the KEFs
might sound bright with tube amps with high source impedance. In
general, it would take a big increase in amp power to be noticeable in
casual listening.


...Alright - I emailed Rogue Audio about the specific comment made by
Stereophile and linked to the measurements page that demonstrated the
impedance spike. Mark O'Brien (who I believe is their main engineer)
emailed me back directly almost right away and said their amps had no
issues driving 'complex reactive loads', but suggested (based on the
Stereophile measurements) that I use the 4ohm taps. Since I come from
a world where there are no separate taps for 4ohm loads (all the amps
I've had just use the same taps either handle the load or don't) - I
have absolutely no idea what effect this will have on things. ...and
while it sure would be fun to just take the amp and mess with it, that
would be an expensive journey.

Man, the choices. It was easier when I had a small budget and no
equipment

Run some measurements on the room. IF you can't do a RAL from a PC then
use test CDs and a RadioShack meter and plot the values. Given your
girlfriend factor I bet it's the room. (Not to pry but girlfriend
factor shouldn't rate this high unless you want to marry her. Maybe
this is a chance to test your priorities.)

"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...
On 23 Jun 2006 10:12:49 -0700, "j." wrote:

Is it pretty common for people to use subs in pure music stereos with
floor standing loudspeakers? ...specifically people who listen to
classical?

Not common but some of us do.

While not a classical music lover...I will say that I've found
the flexibility of tuning a system with a sub far superior to
a typical floor standing set of speakers with technically
superior bass response.

ScottW

Witlessmongrel yapped:

I've found
the flexibility of tuning a system with a sub far superior to
a typical floor standing set of speakers with technically
superior bass response.

Yes, but you're an idiot. How many music-lovers seriously try to "tune a
system" in a room with 7-foot ceilings and a great big honking pool table
sitting right in the middle?




--
A day without Krooger is like a day without arsenic.

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message ...


Witlessmongrel yapped:

I've found
the flexibility of tuning a system with a sub far superior to
a typical floor standing set of speakers with technically
superior bass response.

Yes, but you're an idiot. How many music-lovers seriously try to "tune a
system" in a room with 7-foot ceilings and a great big honking pool table
sitting right in the middle?



I wondered why his coffee table had pockets.
But his setup wasn't in that room.



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

MD wrote:

Run some measurements on the room. IF you can't do a RAL from a PC then
use test CDs and a RadioShack meter and plot the values. Given your
girlfriend factor I bet it's the room. (Not to pry but girlfriend
factor shouldn't rate this high unless you want to marry her. Maybe
this is a chance to test your priorities.)

I agree that I should be doing some work on the room - I'll see if I
can get the software you mentioned. The room is pretty big and
sonically has some problems. Unfortunately, I live in a city where
space is pretty expensive, so all my rooms are 'multipurpose'.

The girlfriend factor might as well be the wife factor. We own the
place together and have been living together for many years - add
enough shared assets and effectively you're married


Jason

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message ...


Witlessmongrel yapped:

I've found
the flexibility of tuning a system with a sub far superior to
a typical floor standing set of speakers with technically
superior bass response.

Yes, but you're an idiot. How many music-lovers seriously try to "tune a
system" in a room with 7-foot ceilings and a great big honking pool table
sitting right in the middle?

Thanks for demonstrating who the true idiot is George. If you paid any
attention (or perhaps more accurately, if you could pay any attention)
you would know that my main system hasn't been in the pool room for
years.... and neither room has a 7 foot ceiling...both rooms have
vaulted ceilings.
Once again the world can see (if anyone cares) that you have no qualms
in lying to score points or pursue your vendettas.

I've said what an ass you are...thanks for proving it.

ScottW

MD wrote:

Get an RAL program for your PC and a mic...

Ok, so looking into this a bit, the most likely software match I can
find for RAL is:
http://www.ymec.com/products/rale/

Am I going in the right direction? Any specific sites or references
you can recommend for this? I am certainly unexperienced in all of
this, but I do agree that probably some changes to the room might be my
best bet. I'm thinking something as simple as throwing a rug down on
the hard wood just in front of the speakers might help out.

Thanks for the help.

Jason