Since the question never seems to go away, I thought I might as well play
along for a bit.

DBT's seem to be controversial for some and not for others. For those that
DBT's and by extension ABX are troublesome, what is your solution to finding
out if anything other than gross differences, (differences that could easily
be heard by a person with normal hearing)actually exist?

Having the ability to rapidly swithch between 2 DUT's playing the same
source material for as long as one feels the need in order to make a
determination, seems the only reasonable way to do it IMO. Since it is
impossible AFAIK to hear 2 DUT's at once I see no other way of making a
comparison that doesn't allow ones personal bias to enter into the picture.

I know this will not resolve the question but I am interested in seeing if
the anti-DBT side has any real reliable alternative. If not then there
should IMO no longer be any discussion of what sounds better or different.

I will of course exempt tubed equipment, phono cartridges and speakers since
they all (especially speakers0 have differences that are IME easily
"hearable."

CD players, and all properly functioning SS equipment seems to be operating
from designs that are done and have not had any real sonic improvements in
decades.

So, where's the reliable methodology for determining what sounds different?

I shall now don flak jacket and retire to my bunker.

Having a long time to review a piece helps. That allows you to leave
and come back to it as you please and for your moods, preconceptions
and environmental (humidity, pressure, rf noise on line and in air)
variables to change as well. One thing that I have noticed after
demonstrating a lot of gear to a lot of people is they can change what
they like or become confused the more they listen. That can be due to
the stress of trying to make a decision or it can be due to hearing
new qualities in components the longer they listen. In other words,
people may have thought about deciding among two speaker pairs and
then after seeing all the toys they want to listen to some more to
make sure that they aren't over looking something. makes sense, but
then they have six pairs to decide among! So a long test in one
sitting can actually be counterproductive. The ones that are
ultimately satisfied are the ones that return several times and listen
to several over agin with different music and with fresh ears an
attitudes. If they then find themselves continually drawn into the
sound of one product, then that becomes the choice that is most likely
to please them as they have had some time to shrug-off all the other
factors. This is why reviewers keep gear for a long period and use it
with various other products as it puts the product through a lot of
variables as well as the reviewer and then the results can be
summarized ( or blatantly lied about ;-). That approach eliminates
testing the test equipment or the reveiwer, but is not to say that it
is not a good idea to also use a blind test. We can actually duplicate
that easily here without too many switches with amplifiers. Once we
set the levels all we have to do is switch back and forth a few times
without revealing which is which and then we can switch from one to
the other whenever the listener wants without them and in some cases
without us even knowing which is selected. If it gets so close that it
is impossible to tell with a particular Cd, then we can put in another
until they either can make a determination of difference or just base
the decision on price if they are satisfied that all else is equal. No
harm done either way.
- Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...
Since the question never seems to go away, I thought I might as well
play
along for a bit.

DBT's seem to be controversial for some and not for others. For
those that
DBT's and by extension ABX are troublesome, what is your solution to
finding
out if anything other than gross differences, (differences that
could easily
be heard by a person with normal hearing)actually exist?

Having the ability to rapidly swithch between 2 DUT's playing the
same
source material for as long as one feels the need in order to make a
determination, seems the only reasonable way to do it IMO. Since it
is
impossible AFAIK to hear 2 DUT's at once I see no other way of
making a
comparison that doesn't allow ones personal bias to enter into the
picture.

I know this will not resolve the question but I am interested in
seeing if
the anti-DBT side has any real reliable alternative. If not then
there
should IMO no longer be any discussion of what sounds better or
different.

I will of course exempt tubed equipment, phono cartridges and
speakers since
they all (especially speakers0 have differences that are IME easily
"hearable."

CD players, and all properly functioning SS equipment seems to be
operating
from designs that are done and have not had any real sonic
improvements in
decades.

So, where's the reliable methodology for determining what sounds
different?

I shall now don flak jacket and retire to my bunker.

"Uptown Audio" wrote in message
...
Having a long time to review a piece helps.

Yo0u have that with ABX. As long as you want before switching.

That allows you to leave
and come back to it as you please and for your moods, preconceptions
and environmental (humidity, pressure, rf noise on line and in air)
variables to change as well.

Not really. Audio memory is something that is very, very short and
completely unreliable if comparisons are not fast. There is ample data to
support this.

One thing that I have noticed after
demonstrating a lot of gear to a lot of people is they can change what
they like or become confused the more they listen.

Especially knowing that the salesman would like them to buy something.

That can be due to
the stress of trying to make a decision or it can be due to hearing
new qualities in components the longer they listen. In other words,
people may have thought about deciding among two speaker pairs and
then after seeing all the toys they want to listen to some more to
make sure that they aren't over looking something. makes sense, but
then they have six pairs to decide among!

I wasn't really considering it for a sales situation. The better audio
stores allow customers to take equipment home and return it if not
satisfied, no?

So a long test in one
sitting can actually be counterproductive.

An opinion with what supporting data?

The ones that are
ultimately satisfied are the ones that return several times and listen
to several over agin with different music and with fresh ears an
attitudes. If they then find themselves continually drawn into the
sound of one product, then that becomes the choice that is most likely
to please them as they have had some time to shrug-off all the other
factors.

I suspect that in a showroom, people are drawn to the ambience, the
personality of the salesman, the wealth of things on their wish list, and
other factors, not eh least of which are the speakers they are listening to.

This is why reviewers keep gear for a long period and use it
with various other products as it puts the product through a lot of
variables as well as the reviewer and then the results can be
summarized ( or blatantly lied about ;-). That approach eliminates
testing the test equipment or the reveiwer, but is not to say that it
is not a good idea to also use a blind test.

Since a blind comparison eliminates any bias on the part of the reviewer and
would likely include some sort of reference, I see no reason for reviewers
NOT to include it. In fact I would not even consider a review that did not
include blind comparisons.

We can actually duplicate
that easily here without too many switches with amplifiers. Once we
set the levels

How are levels set?

all we have to do is switch back and forth a few times
without revealing which is which and then we can switch from one to
the other whenever the listener wants without them and in some cases
without us even knowing which is selected. If it gets so close that it
is impossible to tell with a particular Cd, then we can put in another
until they either can make a determination of difference or just base
the decision on price if they are satisfied that all else is equal. No
harm done either way.
- Bill

As a former audi salesperson, I did essentially the same thing. Of course
my more snooty purist customers and some friends would complain thatbecause
we used a switch box, the comparisons were colored by the extra wiring
involved. It wasn't until later that I learned that such tiny amounts of
wire made no audible difference.

I also know that there's always pressure on you to make a sale or lose your
job.

www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...
Since the question never seems to go away, I thought I might as well
play
along for a bit.

DBT's seem to be controversial for some and not for others. For
those that
DBT's and by extension ABX are troublesome, what is your solution to
finding
out if anything other than gross differences, (differences that
could easily
be heard by a person with normal hearing)actually exist?

Having the ability to rapidly swithch between 2 DUT's playing the
same
source material for as long as one feels the need in order to make a
determination, seems the only reasonable way to do it IMO. Since it
is
impossible AFAIK to hear 2 DUT's at once I see no other way of
making a
comparison that doesn't allow ones personal bias to enter into the
picture.

I know this will not resolve the question but I am interested in
seeing if
the anti-DBT side has any real reliable alternative. If not then
there
should IMO no longer be any discussion of what sounds better or
different.

I will of course exempt tubed equipment, phono cartridges and
speakers since
they all (especially speakers0 have differences that are IME easily
"hearable."

CD players, and all properly functioning SS equipment seems to be
operating
from designs that are done and have not had any real sonic
improvements in
decades.

So, where's the reliable methodology for determining what sounds
different?

I shall now don flak jacket and retire to my bunker.

Ref: Here we go again...component choices..
Depend on others to make the decisions..not!!


No need to make this rather straighforward issue regarding
selecting components a "federal case"!

Sit down in the comfort of your own audio space and listen!
Over and over, if necessary. Then when "you" decide a given
component is "better" in your mind...then go with it. If none
seem better, "flip a coin"!

Not overly complicated. Don't sweat all this "bias" stuff..
every decision you make has that "bias" element involved
in it! Bias is arrived at by your own experiences, sensory
inputs, decision making factors...ad infinitum. This society
has "read-in" all kinds of "bad things" regarding bias. It is
a part of what we are and is not "bad". Live with it. Let
it help you make a common sense decision that "you" are
happy with. Sit down..listen..and say, "...I like this.."!
Case closed!

Be wary of those that know what is best for you..or prefer
to run audio via a device that was designed to pass "white noise"
on amplifiers. Presumptuous of them to know what is best for
you. Somewhat "weird" if one really thinks about it! Kindly state
that you have the priviledge to make a bad decision and enjoy it..
..thank you!!. However, if they are all the same..why worry..another
inconsistency of that mindset! Why do they get upset! Weird!!
Maybe, a tad beyond "weird"!

Perhaps, you could explain that you prefer a given "Logo"..it just
makes things sound better! But then, there might be a "paleness"
in color and actual fainting by "mindsets" with 100,000 posts that
go into an "arm-waving" frenzy...how dare you take such liberty!
Mind you, they have the answers..."it it written" many times in these
Groups..redundantly so!! Oh barf! Perhaps, double barfs at this point
in the game!

Go figure!!

Listen, enjoy all your bad decisions..which you will!
Don't call on those with "ego-driven" agendas. No good will
come of that! Enjoy the richness of the music! Simplify
a simple pleasure! This is your reliable methodology!
This is not a complex issue! One does not need the assistance
of an audio filter here!

Leonard...

P.S. May we all admire the "gall" of the "troll".

The evangelistic "fervor" of the 100,000
post types might well "turn on" the "troll".
Interesting, anyway. Oh ye of little faith...
stand by for the redundancy flow! For all you
others there are some Groups on "Philosophical
issues"..enjoy! A redundant "boring-ness" is
about to ensue here!

__________________________________________________ __



On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:38:23 +0000, Michael Mckelvy wrote:

Since the question never seems to go away, I thought I might as well play
along for a bit.

DBT's seem to be controversial for some and not for others. For those that
DBT's and by extension ABX are troublesome, what is your solution to finding
out if anything other than gross differences, (differences that could easily
be heard by a person with normal hearing)actually exist?

Having the ability to rapidly swithch between 2 DUT's playing the same
source material for as long as one feels the need in order to make a
determination, seems the only reasonable way to do it IMO. Since it is
impossible AFAIK to hear 2 DUT's at once I see no other way of making a
comparison that doesn't allow ones personal bias to enter into the picture.

I know this will not resolve the question but I am interested in seeing if
the anti-DBT side has any real reliable alternative. If not then there
should IMO no longer be any discussion of what sounds better or different.

I will of course exempt tubed equipment, phono cartridges and speakers since
they all (especially speakers0 have differences that are IME easily
"hearable."

CD players, and all properly functioning SS equipment seems to be operating
from designs that are done and have not had any real sonic improvements in
decades.

So, where's the reliable methodology for determining what sounds different?

I shall now don flak jacket and retire to my bunker.

On 7 Oct 2003 22:40:23 GMT, lcw999 wrote:

Listen, enjoy all your bad decisions..which you will!
Don't call on those with "ego-driven" agendas. No good will
come of that! Enjoy the richness of the music! Simplify
a simple pleasure! This is your reliable methodology!
This is not a complex issue! One does not need the assistance
of an audio filter here!

Indeed not, and I am curious to know just when it was that you ever
saw anyone suggest that you should *not* make a buying decision
according to any criteria which take your fancy? Clearly, for many
so-called 'high end' audiophiles, actual sound quality is but one
fairly minor consideration........

It's only regarding claims of technical superiority or 'better sound',
that people might like to be a little more sure of their facts.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 7 Oct 2003 22:40:23 GMT, lcw999 wrote:

Listen, enjoy all your bad decisions..which you will!
Don't call on those with "ego-driven" agendas. No good will
come of that! Enjoy the richness of the music! Simplify
a simple pleasure! This is your reliable methodology!
This is not a complex issue! One does not need the assistance
of an audio filter here!

Indeed not, and I am curious to know just when it was that you ever
saw anyone suggest that you should *not* make a buying decision
according to any criteria which take your fancy? Clearly, for many
so-called 'high end' audiophiles, actual sound quality is but one
fairly minor consideration........

It's only regarding claims of technical superiority or 'better sound',
that people might like to be a little more sure of their facts.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Is it just me or is anyone else not surprised at how few alternatives were
mentioned as being better than ABX/DBT to determine differences?

Absolutely nothing with any bias controls.

I think I'll stick with what has served so many so well.

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...
*snip*

Is it just me or is anyone else not surprised at how few alternatives were
mentioned as being better than ABX/DBT to determine differences?

Absolutely nothing with any bias controls.

I think I'll stick with what has served so many so well.

I've offered an alternative that seems to me to be a perfectly acceptable
solution. I've suggested placing components to be reviewed in a weighted
black box to obscure the brand and apparent build quality. The reviewer or
auditioner could then engage in long term, subjective style listening the
same as they would have. Something similar could be done to disguise
cables.

Most reviews begin with the designer's description of the technology and
what it's supposed to achieve. Wouldn't it be refreshing to read a review
that started with a blind comparison of the component to a known reference.
The review could then proceed to discuss the design, perhaps (novelly?) in
comparison with the sound of the unit as would have been previously
discussed.