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  #201   Report Post  
SSJVCmag
 
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On 6/22/05 7:47 PM, in article ,
"Clyde Slick" wrote:


"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...

OK, I think that is bunk. If a bunch of different-topology
amps all sound the same (up to clipping levels, and
admittedly with fairly standard speaker loads) then it is
silly to think that they all have identical audible
distortions. If they all sound the same and have different
internal designs, the reason they sound alike JUST HAS TO BE
that they have inaudible distortions.

Now, if your amps sounds different from those units, the
only logical conclusion is that it has audible distortion.
Period.


Haw, haw, haw!!
Clyde, could you edit your crosspost on your contributions to this thread so
they don't go to fringe-interest newsgroups?
Thanks!
  #206   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
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"SSJVCmag" wrote in message
...
On 6/22/05 7:47 PM, in article ,
"Clyde Slick" wrote:


"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...

OK, I think that is bunk. If a bunch of different-topology
amps all sound the same (up to clipping levels, and
admittedly with fairly standard speaker loads) then it is
silly to think that they all have identical audible
distortions. If they all sound the same and have different
internal designs, the reason they sound alike JUST HAS TO BE
that they have inaudible distortions.

Now, if your amps sounds different from those units, the
only logical conclusion is that it has audible distortion.
Period.


Haw, haw, haw!!
Clyde, could you edit your crosspost on your contributions to this thread
so
they don't go to fringe-interest newsgroups?
Thanks!



You mean the fringe groups that you keep crossposting your net nanny posts
to?



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  #209   Report Post  
Trevor Wilson
 
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"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

No one is belittling anyone. Most of us are attempting to educate Mr
Ferstler, who, despite repeated posts, refuses to appreciate the error of
his ways.

You know, we all make mistakes and exhibit errors in
judgment.

**Indeed. However, I tend to listen to people who know more than I do about
a particular subject, rather than running off at the mouth, then attempting
to impugn those who actually do know more than I do about the topic. For
instance, I accept and beleive your comments about the Dewey Decimal System.
You need to listen, accept and beleive what I say abotu amplifier protection
systems and short circuits in wires, as these are subjects I have a good
theoretical grounding in, allied with 30 odd years of hard won experience.
When you belittle my qualifications and experience, you can expect to
recieve my wrath.


However, at least I am not conning people into
believing that some kind of super-duper amp has qualities
that make it sound better than anything else.

**Nor am I. I never have. Not that it has anything to do with the topic
under discussion, BTW. It is merely a dodge by you to draw discussion into
an area you imagine can cause me a credibility problem. It cannot.

I am also not
going to con people into believing that upscale speaker
wires do much more than pull money out of the pockets of
suckers.

**Then, here again, you can be shown to be utterly and completely wrong. The
laws of physics can be employed to show that you are wrong. BTW: I do not
"push upscale speaker wires" to suckers. I suggest that LOW INDUCTANCE
cables *MAY* be helpful for SOME listeners, whose requirements are out of
the ordinary. Those low inducatance cables may take the form of relatively
inexpensive high power coax cables, BTW.


This is a very important thing to note, as Mr Ferstler is a
published author, with the ability to influence many people.

You would not know that to read some of the venom that flows
forth from some of the other (not you in this particular
example) clowns on RAO. Supposedly, I do have some
influence, but my impact is a great deal less than what a
few others have.

**Not altogether surprising, given your lack of credibility.


It is utterly
critical for Mr Ferstler to understand, so he, in turn, can impart the
correct knowledge to his (mostly novice) readers.

Well, the guy had a rather esoteric problem that probably
involved mostly guesswork solutions from just about
everybody here, including me.

**Hang on a sec. I already informed you that the original poster's problem
is one which I (as a service guy) enounter on a regular basis. That you do
not encounter it, is not surprising. You're a retired librarian. YOU ARE NOT
A TECH! You don't solve problems, you write books.

When someone talks about a
short in parallel with speakers I tend to think that the
juice will bypass the speakers even at rather low output
levels. The result would be silence.

**Only if you cared not to listen CAREFULLY to what the guy was saying. The
first rule of problem solving is to LISTEN carefully to what the problem is.
Gather as much information as possible, BEFORE suggesting solutions or
passing a diagnosis. You did none of the above.


The one thing most of us agreed with was the need for him to
get new wires. One issue for me would be what kind of wires.

**Not for me. Unless he is running some esoteric equipment, or is running
VERY long cables the type of wire will have little effect.

I have an idea that you would require him to get wires that
were pretty exotic.

**Your delusion is your personal issue. You have no idea what I suggest to
my customers. Until you actually do know, I suggest you say nothing.

My take is that he should stop by a
hardware store and get some lamp cord. If the runs were long
he might want to go to 14 AWG or even 12 AWG stuff, both of
which are available cheap at places like Home Depot or
Lowe's.

Lastly: Voting George W Bush into office was aguably the worst, most
dangerous vote that the US population has engaged in in the entire
history
of mankind.

Well, I think that you are laying it on a bit thick, but I
kind of agree with you on principle for once.

**As would anyone with a brain.


Removing that criminal (and his puppet masters) from office
should be the most important act of the "free world". Then and only then,
can some kind of accountability be engaged in.

Criminal?

**Indeed. He was caught for DUI. His cocaine taking is the stuff of legend.
His involvement in the building of a sports stadium was possibly illegal.
The war in Iraq was an illegal act. His constant and consistent lying to the
US public is detestable and illegal.

Couldn't you just be satisfied with calling him
doctrinaire and stupid?

**Given his religious views, that is a given.

He'll be out of office in a few
years and the electorate, hopefully wizened up, will vote
again. George can then go back to attending church, which is
where he really belongs.

**After he has damaged the fabric of society for a very long time.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
  #210   Report Post  
Trevor Wilson
 
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"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

I've reproduced the post above, because you failed to address any of my
points. See if you can manage to do so.

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...

Your experience is not the issue. The issue is your belief
about that super-duper amp of yours.

**No, Mr Ferstler. The point is about poorly made speaker wires and their
affect on an audio system. YOU are making it about something else. Not
me.

OK, your point is that I was wrong about the way those wires
could have interacted with his speakers, and it is very
possible, given that I did not have a hand's on relationship
with his system, that I was wrong.


**WHEW! That took a long time to extract from you. It should not have been
so difficult, nor should you have engaged in personal attacks on me, in
order to hide your own mistakes.

In principle, I do not
see how any short in parallel with speakers could allow
those speakers to make any sound whatsoever, even at very
low output levels, but perhaps his little "short" was not
really a short at all and only involved one thin strand of a
multi-strand cable. Wonders never cease.

**All has been explained to you.


but I have the 'runs on the board'. You are a
librarian

I am retired.

**I guess that makes you a nothing.

Your contempt for retired people is noted.

**You could have said that you were a writer. I do not have contempt for
retired people. I value a number of retirees amongst those who can offer
good, solid advice on a number of matters.

One nice thing
about being retired is that I am at least not selling stuff.
Most of my books are OP, by the way, although The
Encyclopedia of Recorded Sound that I helped to edit
(published in 2005 by Routledge) will be in print for years.
Still, I got paid directly for my work and get no royalties.
So, no, I am not selling books.

and possess the skills necessary to be a librarian. Based on what
you have written in this thread (and a host of others), your skills in
the
audio (problem solving) area are pitifully limited.

At least I do not con people into purchasing an amp that can
do no better at amplifying signals than other designs of
equal power.

**No. You con people into buying books, even though your knowledge in the
area of problem solving is pitifully limited.

Fortunately, the topic area within a book about basic AV
systems does not involve the kind of problem solving you
take so seriously.

**Of course I take it seriously. I do it every single day.

On the other hand, you do want to sell
overkill and overpriced amps and wires, and that kind of
behavior is something that I really AM interested in.

**Good. Then, before you claim anything is over-priced and overkill, you
need to gain some experience in the area. At present, you are speaking from
a position of ignorance (again).


Heck, the amp section of the average,
mid-priced Japanese receiver is going to sound as good as
your amp. I'll be happy to tell people that, so they can
save money.

**You'll tell people that, even without testing the product/s. WOW! You
have
some impressive abilities. Or you're a liar.

Well, it is YOU who claim that your amp sounds better than
all amps that employ NFB,

**No. And, BTW, the amp is question DOES employ NFB. That you made that
statement merely confirms that you do not do your research correctly.

even though the versions I have
reviewed (ranging in price from a $300 basic stereo power
amp made by AudioSource to a $3200 Ampzilla power amp
designed by James Bongiorno) managed to sound identical up
to their respective maximum-output levels.

**Your sample of TWO is noted. If I take a random sample of 1,000 humans and
test them for Multiple Sclerosis, I am likely to find no evidence. Do I then
conclude that MS does not exist?

Again, as I have
noted before the chances of all those amps having identical
distortions is rather remote, meaning that they will have
had no audible distortions at all.

**A risky assumption.

If your amp sounds
different from them, we have to assume (or at least I have
to assume) that your amp has audible distortion.

**There are several possible, alternate suggestions. Here's one:

* Large amounts of GLOBAL NFB make all amps sound the same (ie: Wrong).

To verify that hypothesis, you would need to test a number of amplifiers,
which exhibit inaudible flaws. Some would use large levels of Global NFB and
some would use no Glbal NFB. Have you performed such a test?

I have. And I've done it blind.


Regarding those books of mine, what newcomers (and even some
old timers who have a tendency to be easily suckered) do
require is information that will protect them from con
artists who want them to purchase overpriced wires and
electronics.

**I would wonder about those poor beginners who are purchasing those
over-priced and utterly useless books.

Perhaps you should go read some of the reviews of those
books to see what it is you are talking about.

**I don't read reviews of audio equipment, so I'm not likely to read reviews
of books about audio equipment.


You clearly have no idea about
amplifiers and cables and their potential effects on a system.

And you, pal, are a con artist who sells upscale cables and
amps to suckers. Well, perhaps you are not a con artist and
are merely deluded.

**Perhaps. Perhaps not. My approach to cables is dictated by science and
maths. My approach to amplifiers is based on many years of tests (on the
bench) and listening.



Ironically, you do have ideas about the effects of
amplifiers, and that is what makes you such a
disappointment.

**What I find disappointing is your continued bluffing, blustering and
spurious argument introducing, instead of addressing the actual facts.
Wanna
try to do that?

They were addressed, pal.

**Some were (finally).


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
  #211   Report Post  
 
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Howard Ferstler wrote:
OK, your point is that I was wrong about the way those wires
could have interacted with his speakers, and it is very
possible, given that I did not have a hand's on relationship
with his system, that I was wrong. In principle, I do not
see how any short in parallel with speakers could allow
those speakers to make any sound whatsoever,

And that's because you simply don't understand the principles.
It has little to do with "hand's on relationships" with any
particular system. A reasonable comprehension of Ohm's Law
would be one of the principles that it would be good to start
with. Follow up with familiarizing yourself with Kirchoff's
current and voltage laws.

And if you make it through that unscathed, then start to explore
all the various and sundry protection mechanisms in those products
about which you choose to hold forth.

even at very low output levels,

KCL would be your clue here, if you were to bother to learn
the principles.

but perhaps his little "short" was not
really a short at all and only involved one thin strand of a
multi-strand cable.

There is no such thing as dead short, not in this universe.
Again, KCL would be your friedn had you bothered to include
it in your repetoire of principles.

Wonders never cease.

They seem to go into a coma in your presence, though.

Fortunately, the topic area within a book about basic AV
systems does not involve the kind of problem solving you
take so seriously.

A problem that you passed off as something else entirely,
given your demonstrable lack of facility in the basic
principles involved.
  #212   Report Post  
Margaret von B.
 
Posts: n/a
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wrote in message
oups.com...


Howard Ferstler wrote:
OK, your point is that I was wrong about the way those wires
could have interacted with his speakers, and it is very
possible, given that I did not have a hand's on relationship
with his system, that I was wrong. In principle, I do not
see how any short in parallel with speakers could allow
those speakers to make any sound whatsoever,

And that's because you simply don't understand the principles.
It has little to do with "hand's on relationships" with any
particular system. A reasonable comprehension of Ohm's Law
would be one of the principles that it would be good to start
with. Follow up with familiarizing yourself with Kirchoff's
current and voltage laws.

And if you make it through that unscathed, then start to explore
all the various and sundry protection mechanisms in those products
about which you choose to hold forth.

even at very low output levels,

KCL would be your clue here, if you were to bother to learn
the principles.

but perhaps his little "short" was not
really a short at all and only involved one thin strand of a
multi-strand cable.

There is no such thing as dead short, not in this universe.
Again, KCL would be your friedn had you bothered to include
it in your repetoire of principles.

Wonders never cease.

They seem to go into a coma in your presence, though.

Fortunately, the topic area within a book about basic AV
systems does not involve the kind of problem solving you
take so seriously.

A problem that you passed off as something else entirely,
given your demonstrable lack of facility in the basic
principles involved.


Thanks for the confirmation, Mr. Pierce. :-)

I hope that all the readers of the magazines who promote Ferstler's garbage
will see this and terminate their subscriptions. It is time to get some
honesty, professionalism and competence back to the audio press. Quacks like
Ferstler and his supporters deserve to be run out of business for good.

Cheers,

Margaret
  #213   Report Post  
Paul Richardson
 
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Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Olden Doode" wrote in message
...

SNIP

Instead of nitpicking and slamming belittling one another it would
probably be far more beneficial to focus those feelings of insecurity and
inadequacy on getting some integrity and accountability back into the
economy and political system that made the free world great in the first
place.


**Dear Mr/Ms Top Poster (which, in itself, tells us a great deal about you),

Please be aware of the following:

No one is belittling anyone. Most of us are attempting to educate Mr
Ferstler, who, despite repeated posts, refuses to appreciate the error of
his ways. This is a very important thing to note, as Mr Ferstler is a
published author, with the ability to influence many people. It is utterly
critical for Mr Ferstler to understand, so he, in turn, can impart the
correct knowledge to his (mostly novice) readers.

Secondly: Who says that the "free world" is great? Do you imagine that those
people in the 'sweat shops' of the Third World are happy? Do you imagine
that those who have allowed huge levels of environmental degradation in
thier lands, so the West will be satisfied with their minerals/crops/beef,
et al feel that the "free world" is great? Do you imagine that the 44
Million Americans living below the poverty line feel that the "free world"
is great?

Lastly: Voting George W Bush into office was aguably the worst, most
dangerous vote that the US population has engaged in in the entire history
of mankind. Removing that criminal (and his puppet masters) from office
should be the most important act of the "free world". Then and only then,
can some kind of accountability be engaged in.

The "free world" is based on the ability of people to speak their mind. I am
doing so. Just as you are.



Yeah, those conservatives are real free market mavens, until they start
losing money or votes in the free market, then they want government
intervention. Please reference the bail out of the mexican banks several
years ago. Or how about complaints about China taking advantage of its
grossly low labor rates etc (not that I advocate what they are doing).
Oh yeah, then there are the electronic stops built into the stock
markets to preclude precipitous falls by free market particpants....

We'll see how long we avoid tinkering with the new Iranian government,
which was freely elected. I'll bet you lots of free market dollars that
Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld aren't happy with those results...
  #214   Report Post  
Howard Ferstler
 
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wrote:

Howard Ferstler wrote:
OK, your point is that I was wrong about the way those wires
could have interacted with his speakers, and it is very
possible, given that I did not have a hand's on relationship
with his system, that I was wrong. In principle, I do not
see how any short in parallel with speakers could allow
those speakers to make any sound whatsoever,

And that's because you simply don't understand the principles.
It has little to do with "hand's on relationships" with any
particular system.

A hand's on situation in this particular case would not have
been a bad idea.

A reasonable comprehension of Ohm's Law
would be one of the principles that it would be good to start
with.

In this case, I am going to assume that a near-zero ohm
short in parallel with a speaker having an impedance in the
4-8 ohm range would result in something other happening than
what the man described.

Follow up with familiarizing yourself with Kirchoff's
current and voltage laws.

I know enough to understand that a not-quite "dead" short,
but one that still had resistance pretty close to zero ohms
would result in nearly no current flowing through a speaker
in parallel with that short. In that case, no sound should
be coming from the speaker at all, even if the amp triggered
its protection circuits. A huge percentage of any current
flow would simply bypass the speaker.

And if you make it through that unscathed, then start to explore
all the various and sundry protection mechanisms in those products
about which you choose to hold forth.

even at very low output levels,

KCL would be your clue here, if you were to bother to learn
the principles.

but perhaps his little "short" was not
really a short at all and only involved one thin strand of a
multi-strand cable.

There is no such thing as dead short, not in this universe.
Again, KCL would be your friedn had you bothered to include
it in your repetoire of principles.

Wonders never cease.

They seem to go into a coma in your presence, though.

Given that you are not doing a hand's on analysis of my
medical condition, your comments are purely speculative.

Fortunately, the topic area within a book about basic AV
systems does not involve the kind of problem solving you
take so seriously.

A problem that you passed off as something else entirely,
given your demonstrable lack of facility in the basic
principles involved.

Well, let's have a clarification here, because I must be
missing some points. If we take a typically good amp and
hook it to a typical speaker, and then create a typically
good "almost" short in parallel with that speaker, will we
get sound from that speaker at any volume setting of the
amp?

If the answer is yes at low levels but no at higher levels,
then obviously there are things about amplifier performance
that I have been missing.

Howard Ferstler
  #215   Report Post  
Howard Ferstler
 
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"Margaret von B." wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...


Howard Ferstler wrote:

Wonders never cease.

They seem to go into a coma in your presence, though.

Fortunately, the topic area within a book about basic AV
systems does not involve the kind of problem solving you
take so seriously.

A problem that you passed off as something else entirely,
given your demonstrable lack of facility in the basic
principles involved.

Thanks for the confirmation, Mr. Pierce. :-)

I hope that all the readers of the magazines who promote Ferstler's garbage
will see this and terminate their subscriptions. It is time to get some
honesty, professionalism and competence back to the audio press. Quacks like
Ferstler and his supporters deserve to be run out of business for good.

Cheers,

Margaret

One can only speculate on what Mr. Pierce would do should
your dreams come true.

Howard Ferstler
  #216   Report Post  
Howard Ferstler
 
Posts: n/a
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ric wrote:

Howard Ferstler wrote:

Is it that important for you to know exactly who is feeding
you a bill of goods? If you cannot spot the con artists on
your own you deserve all the screwing over they can supply
to you.

You made the initial statement, not me. If you had no intention of
specifying the bad apples, you shouldn't have made the statement in
the first place. It has nothing to do with my ability to spot "the
con artists." It is entirely about *you* spouting off generalizations
without having the guts to be specific.

Given what I know about tweako journalists and their
tendencies to explode, there is a difference between not
having "guts" and not being foolhardy.

By your standards, not taking someone up on a challenge to
race through the center of town in a car at 100 mph is a
sign of not having guts. However, I see it as not being
foolhardy.

Howard Ferstler
  #224   Report Post  
George Middius
 
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Brother Horace, Lord High Priest of the Tweako-Freako Church, bitches out the
apostates.

Given what I know about tweako journalists

Yes, it's about time you refreshed your instruction set. You're getting sooooo
repetitive, Clerkie. There are dozens of high-priced lines out there -- if not
hundreds. All of them need pricking. You should start sharpening up your
whacking ball and see if you can't smash them to slivers.
  #225   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"SSJVCmag" wrote in message
...
On 6/27/05 3:57 PM, in article , "Howard
Ferstler" wrote:


Given that you are not doing a hand's on analysis of my
medical condition, your comments are purely speculative.

Medical conditions aside, Howard, Check and edit those Newsgroup addresses
on ALL your messages before you hit send! thanks!


Lookeee here!!!
Idiot bot is back again!!!!



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  #231   Report Post  
Margaret von B.
 
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"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...

babble babble babble...

obviously there are things about amplifier performance
that I have been missing.

Howard Ferstler


No need to be specific. It seems safe to say that, in general, you are
missing things. Some audio reviewer.

In order to salvage what's left of your audio career I think you owe open
letters of apology to the readers of the magazines that have published your
reviews. In these letters you need to explain in detail your technical
incompetence and general lack of understanding (as demonstrated by Mr.
Pierce) and how these factors combined have invalidated your reviews. You
should also assume sole responsibility of any damage your wrongful reviews
may have caused to manufacturers. Offering restitution up front might be the
least costly alternative on the long run.

Respectfully,

Margaret
  #232   Report Post  
ric
 
Posts: n/a
Default
Howard Ferstler wrote:

You made the initial statement, not me. If you had no intention of
specifying the bad apples, you shouldn't have made the statement in
the first place. It has nothing to do with my ability to spot "the
con artists." It is entirely about *you* spouting off generalizations
without having the guts to be specific.

Given what I know about tweako journalists and their
tendencies to explode, there is a difference between not
having "guts" and not being foolhardy.

By your standards, not taking someone up on a challenge to
race through the center of town in a car at 100 mph is a
sign of not having guts.

If you had previously spouted off about doing so, yes. That is the
point which you continue to ignore. Ever hear of the saying "Put up,
or shut up" ?? I think it is time for you to "shut up."
 
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