I am trying to record extremely low level sounds. These sounds are people's
footsteps from an "upstairs apartment" and people closing doors.....very
low level sounds...

I have a omnidirectional conference microphone from RadioShack

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...uct_id=33-3022

I am using Wavepad softwarea and the results are not good.

I set the sampling at 96k and I can barely hear these sounds. I tried
amplifying them 400% and then doing a noise reduction, but that's not
great...

I really need to record this so that it is reproduceable and when you listen
to a recording, it sounds like the soft footsteps....

NOTE: There is no creaking of the floors here

It's thump, thump, thump.....

You need the best signal/noise ratio you can get, the RS mic won't do
it.
Also, you should have as directional as possible as in shotgun -or- get
as close as possible.
If you are trying to record through the floor you are at a loss to get
a good reproduction.

rd

Remedius Kowzompfzski wrote:
You need the best signal/noise ratio you can get, the RS mic won't do
it.
Also, you should have as directional as possible as in shotgun -or- get
as close as possible.
If you are trying to record through the floor you are at a loss to get
a good reproduction.

rd


Yep....my thoughts exactly. Aim a shotgun mic directly at the sound,
ideally while monitoring w/ headphones to ensure proper aim.

Jonny Durango

Hi Remedius,

OK, how about this one?

Sound Grabber II
http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/soundgrabber.htm

Sound Grabber II data sheet - note for some reason they don't have a
published S/N ??
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/mics/101502.pdf

Also, is it better to put it up on the ceiling on in a corner of a ceiling?

OH, by the way, it's ok for the sound to have other noises in the room, it
needs to be very realistic and one need to hear/listen that this is not
necessarily a totally quiet room and that the footsteps while soft in sound
can be still be recorded. Thus, do I still need a directional mic?

Thanks for the reply....






"Remedius Kowzompfzski" wrote in message
ups.com...
You need the best signal/noise ratio you can get, the RS mic won't do
it.
Also, you should have as directional as possible as in shotgun -or- get
as close as possible.
If you are trying to record through the floor you are at a loss to get
a good reproduction.

rd

I am using Wavepad softwarea and the results are not good.

I set the sampling at 96k and I can barely hear these sounds. I tried
amplifying them 400% and then doing a noise reduction, but that's not
great...

I really need to record this so that it is reproduceable and when you
listen
to a recording, it sounds like the soft footsteps....

NOTE: There is no creaking of the floors here

It's thump, thump, thump.....


Nothing I own from Radio Shack is going to give really stellar results. Too
much hiss.

I'm having a lot of fun with my Behringer B-1 condenser mics and the MOTU
896. This is the dream setup you want for recording sounds that are
inaudible to normal ears.

I've been conducting some fascinating tests:

Swinging the closet door open and closed (so it makes a breeze), produced
readings on the VU meters of the MOTU 896, even though the B-1 mic was 20'
away from the door. The door displaced air at a very low infrasonic
frequency (10Hz) and the B-1s picked it up. They registered the air
pressure change as the door displaced it slowly--too slowly for the ears to
hear it.
Another thing is signal-to-noise ratio. If you're going to apply EQ to shape
the signal, I can't emphasize enough the importance of having almost zero
noise introduced by the recording system.
I recorded some wildlife sounds in my rural, back yard pond. The SPLs were
low, and the recording level was set to encompass an SPL of 115dB without
clipping. So these sounds were very, very low in level. Having recorded in
24-bit depth, I was able to digitally boost the volume by tens of decibels
and at that level, could hear distant traffic, aircraft many miles away in
flight, jets, etc. that I didn't hear when I was making the recording.
Another experiment was to boost the 20hz range by 24dB. This made me aware
of the fact that the sounds of traffic pounding the highways many miles
away, is conducted through the earth itself, as I could now hear it with the
EQ enhancing certain frequencies. In a separate experiment, boosting the
16Khz range by 12 dB brought out the overtones of certain insects, but still
not a trace of hiss to be heard.
A normal recording system would have had too much hiss to hear these things.
The B-1s and the MOTU 896 have no audible hiss, even when using gain
boosting algorithms in SoundForge software in post.
I conducted another interesting experiment. I have long since known that
jangling car keys are the bane of broadcast and recording equipment. They
contain such high frequency energy that they excite godawful distortion that
has a "spitty" quality (aliasing distortion). I've tested FM stereo
broadcast equipment for transient peak handling and high frequency
distortion using this simple test. Analog audio reel to reel tape decks fail
miserably too. Some amplification chains also fail to reproduce it without
artifacts. But again, the B-1 and MOTU 896 reproduce it flawlessly. And in
96Khz sample rate, I ran SoundForge's FFT response graph to observe the
distribution of energy. There was substantial energy above 40KHz when the
keys were jangling, and nothing when the keys were still.
I tried some really funky experiments with this particular recording: pitch
shifted it down 24 semitones (2 octaves) making the 45Khz energy become
15Khz. Now I could hear the uppermost harmonics of the jangling keys. I
applied +50dB of boost (two successive filter applications) above 10Khz to
bring out the tinkle in the upper end that originally was 45Khz. I fully
expected to hear hiss at this point, but instead, I heard an amazing
bell-like clarity to the tinkling sounds of those ultrasonic harmonics. The
sounds that only dogs and bats could normally perceive.
I bought this rig to record big orchestras, but I am finding that, because
of it's high gain and practically non-existant self-noise, the system can be
used to enhance certain sounds and pick selected sounds "out of the crowd"
so to speak.
I have tried these tricks back in the analog days, but always hit the
ceiling with even modest boosts. So if you want to capture a difficult sound
that is low in level, this is the rig to use. The mics are very reasonably
priced (insanely low, in fact) and the MOTU 896 can be had very cheap, used
on Ebay. I highly recommend this rig. Affordable, but not modest in quality
at all. With eight mics, you can record a 5.1 channel surround sound track
and a stereo track all together. You'll get your sound, without unwanted
noise.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION • FILM SCANNING • DVD MASTERING • AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

pcomlow wrote:
Hi Remedius,

OK, how about this one?

Sound Grabber II
http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/soundgrabber.htm

Sound Grabber II data sheet - note for some reason they don't have a
published S/N ??
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/mics/101502.pdf

Also, is it better to put it up on the ceiling on in a corner of a ceiling?

OH, by the way, it's ok for the sound to have other noises in the room, it
needs to be very realistic and one need to hear/listen that this is not
necessarily a totally quiet room and that the footsteps while soft in sound
can be still be recorded. Thus, do I still need a directional mic?

Thanks for the reply....






"Remedius Kowzompfzski" wrote in message
ups.com...

You need the best signal/noise ratio you can get, the RS mic won't do
it.
Also, you should have as directional as possible as in shotgun -or- get
as close as possible.
If you are trying to record through the floor you are at a loss to get
a good reproduction.

rd





For more room sound to add realism use a less-directional mic like a
short shotgun or supercardioid, or just use the shotgun in conjunction
with a good ambient room mic (watch the phase). Don't forget that you
can always take the relatively dry audio and add a room in post using a
good reverb and some stereo tricks/effects. Nonetheless, I think a good
short shotgun will sound plenty real. The ideal mic would be a Schoeps
CMC6 w/ MK41, but any good mic w/ a similar polar pattern will do. Check
out Sennheiser's MKH line.

Jonny Durango

Ok, thanks for the info, especially the Behringer B-1, now I got to figure
out how to hook it up to my PC computer using 1/8 jacks in the back?

It's got those big XLR connectors, but what do you recommend to get
connected to the PC as doesn't this need a 48+ phantom power supply...

any sound cards you recommend to just to "get-the-job-done"?

Creative or their professional series E-MU stuff? will it be worth it as
don't I have to have some mixer board to begin with (any best money for the
value)

Thanks in advance





"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote in message
ink.net...

I am using Wavepad softwarea and the results are not good.

I set the sampling at 96k and I can barely hear these sounds. I tried
amplifying them 400% and then doing a noise reduction, but that's not
great...

I really need to record this so that it is reproduceable and when you
listen
to a recording, it sounds like the soft footsteps....

NOTE: There is no creaking of the floors here

It's thump, thump, thump.....


Nothing I own from Radio Shack is going to give really stellar results.
Too
much hiss.

I'm having a lot of fun with my Behringer B-1 condenser mics and the MOTU
896. This is the dream setup you want for recording sounds that are
inaudible to normal ears.

I've been conducting some fascinating tests:

Swinging the closet door open and closed (so it makes a breeze), produced
readings on the VU meters of the MOTU 896, even though the B-1 mic was 20'
away from the door. The door displaced air at a very low infrasonic
frequency (10Hz) and the B-1s picked it up. They registered the air
pressure change as the door displaced it slowly--too slowly for the ears
to
hear it.
Another thing is signal-to-noise ratio. If you're going to apply EQ to
shape
the signal, I can't emphasize enough the importance of having almost zero
noise introduced by the recording system.
I recorded some wildlife sounds in my rural, back yard pond. The SPLs were
low, and the recording level was set to encompass an SPL of 115dB without
clipping. So these sounds were very, very low in level. Having recorded in
24-bit depth, I was able to digitally boost the volume by tens of decibels
and at that level, could hear distant traffic, aircraft many miles away in
flight, jets, etc. that I didn't hear when I was making the recording.
Another experiment was to boost the 20hz range by 24dB. This made me aware
of the fact that the sounds of traffic pounding the highways many miles
away, is conducted through the earth itself, as I could now hear it with
the
EQ enhancing certain frequencies. In a separate experiment, boosting the
16Khz range by 12 dB brought out the overtones of certain insects, but
still
not a trace of hiss to be heard.
A normal recording system would have had too much hiss to hear these
things.
The B-1s and the MOTU 896 have no audible hiss, even when using gain
boosting algorithms in SoundForge software in post.
I conducted another interesting experiment. I have long since known that
jangling car keys are the bane of broadcast and recording equipment. They
contain such high frequency energy that they excite godawful distortion
that
has a "spitty" quality (aliasing distortion). I've tested FM stereo
broadcast equipment for transient peak handling and high frequency
distortion using this simple test. Analog audio reel to reel tape decks
fail
miserably too. Some amplification chains also fail to reproduce it without
artifacts. But again, the B-1 and MOTU 896 reproduce it flawlessly. And in
96Khz sample rate, I ran SoundForge's FFT response graph to observe the
distribution of energy. There was substantial energy above 40KHz when the
keys were jangling, and nothing when the keys were still.
I tried some really funky experiments with this particular recording:
pitch
shifted it down 24 semitones (2 octaves) making the 45Khz energy become
15Khz. Now I could hear the uppermost harmonics of the jangling keys. I
applied +50dB of boost (two successive filter applications) above 10Khz to
bring out the tinkle in the upper end that originally was 45Khz. I fully
expected to hear hiss at this point, but instead, I heard an amazing
bell-like clarity to the tinkling sounds of those ultrasonic harmonics.
The
sounds that only dogs and bats could normally perceive.
I bought this rig to record big orchestras, but I am finding that, because
of it's high gain and practically non-existant self-noise, the system can
be
used to enhance certain sounds and pick selected sounds "out of the crowd"
so to speak.
I have tried these tricks back in the analog days, but always hit the
ceiling with even modest boosts. So if you want to capture a difficult
sound
that is low in level, this is the rig to use. The mics are very reasonably
priced (insanely low, in fact) and the MOTU 896 can be had very cheap,
used
on Ebay. I highly recommend this rig. Affordable, but not modest in
quality
at all. With eight mics, you can record a 5.1 channel surround sound track
and a stereo track all together. You'll get your sound, without unwanted
noise.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

Oh, by the way, I typically goto the Guitar Center, but I never know if the
advice I am getting is right in the first place....



"pcomlow" wrote in message
news:reN6e.38723$Xs.17845@fed1read03...
Ok, thanks for the info, especially the Behringer B-1, now I got to figure
out how to hook it up to my PC computer using 1/8 jacks in the back?

It's got those big XLR connectors, but what do you recommend to get
connected to the PC as doesn't this need a 48+ phantom power supply...

any sound cards you recommend to just to "get-the-job-done"?

Creative or their professional series E-MU stuff? will it be worth it as
don't I have to have some mixer board to begin with (any best money for
the
value)

Thanks in advance





"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote in message
ink.net...

I am using Wavepad softwarea and the results are not good.

I set the sampling at 96k and I can barely hear these sounds. I tried
amplifying them 400% and then doing a noise reduction, but that's not
great...

I really need to record this so that it is reproduceable and when you
listen
to a recording, it sounds like the soft footsteps....

NOTE: There is no creaking of the floors here

It's thump, thump, thump.....


Nothing I own from Radio Shack is going to give really stellar results.
Too
much hiss.

I'm having a lot of fun with my Behringer B-1 condenser mics and the
MOTU
896. This is the dream setup you want for recording sounds that are
inaudible to normal ears.

I've been conducting some fascinating tests:

Swinging the closet door open and closed (so it makes a breeze),
produced
readings on the VU meters of the MOTU 896, even though the B-1 mic was
20'
away from the door. The door displaced air at a very low infrasonic
frequency (10Hz) and the B-1s picked it up. They registered the air
pressure change as the door displaced it slowly--too slowly for the ears
to
hear it.
Another thing is signal-to-noise ratio. If you're going to apply EQ to
shape
the signal, I can't emphasize enough the importance of having almost
zero
noise introduced by the recording system.
I recorded some wildlife sounds in my rural, back yard pond. The SPLs
were
low, and the recording level was set to encompass an SPL of 115dB
without
clipping. So these sounds were very, very low in level. Having recorded
in
24-bit depth, I was able to digitally boost the volume by tens of
decibels
and at that level, could hear distant traffic, aircraft many miles away
in
flight, jets, etc. that I didn't hear when I was making the recording.
Another experiment was to boost the 20hz range by 24dB. This made me
aware
of the fact that the sounds of traffic pounding the highways many miles
away, is conducted through the earth itself, as I could now hear it with
the
EQ enhancing certain frequencies. In a separate experiment, boosting the
16Khz range by 12 dB brought out the overtones of certain insects, but
still
not a trace of hiss to be heard.
A normal recording system would have had too much hiss to hear these
things.
The B-1s and the MOTU 896 have no audible hiss, even when using gain
boosting algorithms in SoundForge software in post.
I conducted another interesting experiment. I have long since known that
jangling car keys are the bane of broadcast and recording equipment.
They
contain such high frequency energy that they excite godawful distortion
that
has a "spitty" quality (aliasing distortion). I've tested FM stereo
broadcast equipment for transient peak handling and high frequency
distortion using this simple test. Analog audio reel to reel tape decks
fail
miserably too. Some amplification chains also fail to reproduce it
without
artifacts. But again, the B-1 and MOTU 896 reproduce it flawlessly. And
in
96Khz sample rate, I ran SoundForge's FFT response graph to observe the
distribution of energy. There was substantial energy above 40KHz when
the
keys were jangling, and nothing when the keys were still.
I tried some really funky experiments with this particular recording:
pitch
shifted it down 24 semitones (2 octaves) making the 45Khz energy become
15Khz. Now I could hear the uppermost harmonics of the jangling keys. I
applied +50dB of boost (two successive filter applications) above 10Khz
to
bring out the tinkle in the upper end that originally was 45Khz. I fully
expected to hear hiss at this point, but instead, I heard an amazing
bell-like clarity to the tinkling sounds of those ultrasonic harmonics.
The
sounds that only dogs and bats could normally perceive.
I bought this rig to record big orchestras, but I am finding that,
because
of it's high gain and practically non-existant self-noise, the system
can
be
used to enhance certain sounds and pick selected sounds "out of the
crowd"
so to speak.
I have tried these tricks back in the analog days, but always hit the
ceiling with even modest boosts. So if you want to capture a difficult
sound
that is low in level, this is the rig to use. The mics are very
reasonably
priced (insanely low, in fact) and the MOTU 896 can be had very cheap,
used
on Ebay. I highly recommend this rig. Affordable, but not modest in
quality
at all. With eight mics, you can record a 5.1 channel surround sound
track
and a stereo track all together. You'll get your sound, without unwanted
noise.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

pcomlow wrote:
Ok, thanks for the info, especially the Behringer B-1, now I got to figure
out how to hook it up to my PC computer using 1/8 jacks in the back?

It's got those big XLR connectors, but what do you recommend to get
connected to the PC as doesn't this need a 48+ phantom power supply...

any sound cards you recommend to just to "get-the-job-done"?

Given that you need really good noise performance, this is an
application where you really don't want to go straight into a PC sound
card, even if it does claim a mic input.

You need an external mic preamp.

Absolute bargain basement for a mic preamp is the M-Audio Audio Buddy,
if you really don't want to spend much.

Then, any sound card will do, including the built in sound adaprter on
your PC motherboard if you have one.

If you want to spend money on a good basic sound card, don't waste it on
Creative Labs. The M-Audio Audiophile 2496 isn't too bad a choice.
To hook that to an Audio Buddy you'll need a 1/4" jack to 2 x RCA cable.

Anahata

In article HdG6e.38693$Xs.19682@fed1read03,
pcomlow wrote:
I am trying to record extremely low level sounds. These sounds are people's
footsteps from an "upstairs apartment" and people closing doors.....very
low level sounds...

I have a omnidirectional conference microphone from RadioShack

Which is very noisy. Try renting a Sennheiser MKH-20 and a decent preamp.
Also try getting closer to the source.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

pcomlow wrote:

Ok, thanks for the info, especially the Behringer B-1, now I got to
figure out how to hook it up to my PC computer using 1/8 jacks in
the
back?

Get a good quiet mic preamp, and route its line output into the line
input of your computer. Be careful to not overdrive and clip the line
input of your computer, as any good mic preamp has more than enough
output to overdrive your basic standard PC audio interface.

It's got those big XLR connectors, but what do you recommend to get
connected to the PC as doesn't this need a 48+ phantom power
supply...

Last time I needed a really quiet mic preamp I used some Benchmark
Media preamps. They didn't have 48 volt phantom power (only 12 volts)
so I added an Audio Technica external phantom supply.

any sound cards you recommend to just to "get-the-job-done"?

With a little careful mouth holding you might be able to get away with
using the audio interface that is already in your computer, if it is
reasonably modern.

As I read your application you don't need the ultimate in dynamic
range or frequency response. You need the ablity to pick up soft
sounds in the context of soft sounds.

If you wanted to pickup the creaking of the floorboards and then a gun
shot over them, then dynamic range would be an issue.

However, if you record the creaking of the floorboards and the gun
shot in separate sessions with separate gain settings on your mic
preamp, then your need for the ultimate in dyamic range would be
there. You can add the dynamic range back in when you mix down the
two sessions by attenuating the recording of the soft sounds.

Creative or their professional series E-MU stuff? will it be worth
it as don't I have to have some mixer board to begin with (any best
money for the value)

The new M-Audio Audiophile 24/192 looks like a readily-availble
product for a reasonable price that has close to the ultimate in
dynamic range. You'll probably pay more to get a good mic preamp with
as much dynamic range as it has.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOAP192

In article HdG6e.38693$Xs.19682@fed1read03,
pcomlow wrote:

I am trying to record extremely low level sounds. These sounds are people's
footsteps from an "upstairs apartment" and people closing doors.....very
low level sounds...

Foley work is an art unto itself, as is evidence gathering, and spying.
Which one are you trying to do?

In article RfN6e.38724$Xs.24396@fed1read03,
pcomlow wrote:

Oh, by the way, I typically goto the Guitar Center, but I never know if the
advice I am getting is right in the first place....

If people with experience are working there, that's just sad.

Remedius Kowzompfzski wrote:

You need the best signal/noise ratio you can get, the RS mic won't do
it.
Also, you should have as directional as possible as in shotgun -or- get
as close as possible.
If you are trying to record through the floor you are at a loss to get
a good reproduction.

Another old trick is to do a bit of impedance matching(this
requires a bit of electronics knowlegde) and hook your speakers
into the thing, in reverse. They make for excellent 6-8" dynamic
microphones, though, you do want to wire it up correctly.

I'm having a lot of fun with my Behringer B-1 condenser mics and the MOTU
896. This is the dream setup you want for recording sounds that are
inaudible to normal ears.

Get these two items. They work and won't break the bank. The
improtant part is the 896 or something like it. Plugging a mic
into your soundcard isn't going to come close to achieving what
you want unless your computer is 2-3 rooms away and you have a
very long chord(which has problems as well).

james wrote:

In article RfN6e.38724$Xs.24396@fed1read03,
pcomlow wrote:


Oh, by the way, I typically goto the Guitar Center, but I never know if the
advice I am getting is right in the first place....


If people with experience are working there, that's just sad.

Based upon their pay rates and the training and hiring process,
I'd say barely above DMV workers in actual usefulness. They
are the FRY'S Electronics of music gear.

evidence gathering.....for some peace and quiet


"james" wrote in message
news:aAS6e.38744$Xs.24779@fed1read03...
In article HdG6e.38693$Xs.19682@fed1read03,
pcomlow wrote:

I am trying to record extremely low level sounds. These sounds are
people's
footsteps from an "upstairs apartment" and people closing doors.....very
low level sounds...

Foley work is an art unto itself, as is evidence gathering, and spying.
Which one are you trying to do?

I don't understand what you mean by having my computer 2-3 rooms away and
have a very long cord?

I like the MOTU 896 but that's out of my price range for the time being,
although I would definately like that in the future. Couldn't some mixer
board be used?

I say this because I have a totally different application that I need to do
also with my PC and that will require some other sound inputs that need to
feed inside to my computer


"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net...


I'm having a lot of fun with my Behringer B-1 condenser mics and the
MOTU
896. This is the dream setup you want for recording sounds that are
inaudible to normal ears.

Get these two items. They work and won't break the bank. The
improtant part is the 896 or something like it. Plugging a mic
into your soundcard isn't going to come close to achieving what
you want unless your computer is 2-3 rooms away and you have a
very long chord(which has problems as well).

Wait this MOTU 896 is a mixer of sort......OK, I see....

But I still don't see why you mentioned that the computer had to be 2-3
rooms away and all that?


"pcomlow" wrote in message
news:ziT6e.38748$Xs.34947@fed1read03...
I don't understand what you mean by having my computer 2-3 rooms away and
have a very long cord?

I like the MOTU 896 but that's out of my price range for the time being,
although I would definately like that in the future. Couldn't some mixer
board be used?

I say this because I have a totally different application that I need to
do
also with my PC and that will require some other sound inputs that need to
feed inside to my computer


"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net...


I'm having a lot of fun with my Behringer B-1 condenser mics and the
MOTU
896. This is the dream setup you want for recording sounds that are
inaudible to normal ears.

Get these two items. They work and won't break the bank. The
improtant part is the 896 or something like it. Plugging a mic
into your soundcard isn't going to come close to achieving what
you want unless your computer is 2-3 rooms away and you have a
very long chord(which has problems as well).

as well as sound effect creation


"pcomlow" wrote in message
news:80T6e.38746$Xs.13473@fed1read03...
evidence gathering.....for some peace and quiet


"james" wrote in message
news:aAS6e.38744$Xs.24779@fed1read03...
In article HdG6e.38693$Xs.19682@fed1read03,
pcomlow wrote:

I am trying to record extremely low level sounds. These sounds are
people's
footsteps from an "upstairs apartment" and people closing
doors.....very
low level sounds...

Foley work is an art unto itself, as is evidence gathering, and spying.
Which one are you trying to do?

It sounds like a good quiet preamp is something of a necessity of which I
fail to see the benefit technically.

I WISH I could just somehow buy a Behringer B-1 mic and then just plug it
into the back of my PC's sound card, or if I have to get a better sound
card, that that also..but this doesn't seem to be technically possible.




"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
pcomlow wrote:

Ok, thanks for the info, especially the Behringer B-1, now I got to
figure out how to hook it up to my PC computer using 1/8 jacks in
the
back?

Get a good quiet mic preamp, and route its line output into the line
input of your computer. Be careful to not overdrive and clip the line
input of your computer, as any good mic preamp has more than enough
output to overdrive your basic standard PC audio interface.

It's got those big XLR connectors, but what do you recommend to get
connected to the PC as doesn't this need a 48+ phantom power
supply...

Last time I needed a really quiet mic preamp I used some Benchmark
Media preamps. They didn't have 48 volt phantom power (only 12 volts)
so I added an Audio Technica external phantom supply.

any sound cards you recommend to just to "get-the-job-done"?

With a little careful mouth holding you might be able to get away with
using the audio interface that is already in your computer, if it is
reasonably modern.

As I read your application you don't need the ultimate in dynamic
range or frequency response. You need the ablity to pick up soft
sounds in the context of soft sounds.

If you wanted to pickup the creaking of the floorboards and then a gun
shot over them, then dynamic range would be an issue.

However, if you record the creaking of the floorboards and the gun
shot in separate sessions with separate gain settings on your mic
preamp, then your need for the ultimate in dyamic range would be
there. You can add the dynamic range back in when you mix down the
two sessions by attenuating the recording of the soft sounds.

Creative or their professional series E-MU stuff? will it be worth
it as don't I have to have some mixer board to begin with (any best
money for the value)

The new M-Audio Audiophile 24/192 looks like a readily-availble
product for a reasonable price that has close to the ultimate in
dynamic range. You'll probably pay more to get a good mic preamp with
as much dynamic range as it has.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOAP192

pcomlow wrote:
I don't understand what you mean by having my computer 2-3 rooms away and
have a very long cord?

If the computer is in the room where you're recording, all you'll record
is the HD and cooling fans. Maybe 2-3 rooms is a slight exaggeration,
but if you're going for state of the low-noise art your mics may be able
to hear it from the next room..

I like the MOTU 896 but that's out of my price range for the time being,
although I would definately like that in the future. Couldn't some mixer
board be used?

Mackie 1202 VLZ pro is very low noise and good VFM, but you're paying
for 4 mic channels.

--
Anahata
-+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827

Seems like the Pre-amp is more important than the sound card here, is that
correct?



"Anahata" wrote in message
...
pcomlow wrote:
Ok, thanks for the info, especially the Behringer B-1, now I got to
figure
out how to hook it up to my PC computer using 1/8 jacks in the back?

It's got those big XLR connectors, but what do you recommend to get
connected to the PC as doesn't this need a 48+ phantom power supply...

any sound cards you recommend to just to "get-the-job-done"?

Given that you need really good noise performance, this is an
application where you really don't want to go straight into a PC sound
card, even if it does claim a mic input.

You need an external mic preamp.

Absolute bargain basement for a mic preamp is the M-Audio Audio Buddy,
if you really don't want to spend much.

Then, any sound card will do, including the built in sound adaprter on
your PC motherboard if you have one.

If you want to spend money on a good basic sound card, don't waste it on
Creative Labs. The M-Audio Audiophile 2496 isn't too bad a choice.
To hook that to an Audio Buddy you'll need a 1/4" jack to 2 x RCA cable.

Anahata

Thanks for the info.

as you already figured out, I am not a music pro by any means, so I guess I
am wondering why having only 4 mic channels is not a great deal



"anahata" wrote in message
...
pcomlow wrote:
I don't understand what you mean by having my computer 2-3 rooms away
and
have a very long cord?

If the computer is in the room where you're recording, all you'll record
is the HD and cooling fans. Maybe 2-3 rooms is a slight exaggeration,
but if you're going for state of the low-noise art your mics may be able
to hear it from the next room..

I like the MOTU 896 but that's out of my price range for the time being,
although I would definately like that in the future. Couldn't some mixer
board be used?

Mackie 1202 VLZ pro is very low noise and good VFM, but you're paying
for 4 mic channels.

--
Anahata
-+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:18:22 -0700, pcomlow wrote:

I am trying to record extremely low level sounds. These sounds are people's
footsteps from an "upstairs apartment" and people closing doors.....very
low level sounds...

I have a omnidirectional conference microphone from RadioShack

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...uct_id=33-3022

I am using Wavepad softwarea and the results are not good.

I set the sampling at 96k and I can barely hear these sounds. I tried
amplifying them 400% and then doing a noise reduction, but that's not
great...

I really need to record this so that it is reproduceable and when you listen
to a recording, it sounds like the soft footsteps....

NOTE: There is no creaking of the floors here

It's thump, thump, thump.....

Try a contact mic on the ceiling.

Or... this might work...
Record with the mic in the same room as the footsteps (the 'upstairs
apartment').
Play the resulting recording loud through your monitors.
Record the monitors by putting a mic in another room, or the floor above.

That a clever method, but there is absolutely no access to the upstairs
apartment as they are the offending party


"philicorda" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:18:22 -0700, pcomlow wrote:

I am trying to record extremely low level sounds. These sounds are
people's
footsteps from an "upstairs apartment" and people closing
doors.....very
low level sounds...

I have a omnidirectional conference microphone from RadioShack


http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...uct_id=33-3022

I am using Wavepad softwarea and the results are not good.

I set the sampling at 96k and I can barely hear these sounds. I tried
amplifying them 400% and then doing a noise reduction, but that's not
great...

I really need to record this so that it is reproduceable and when you
listen
to a recording, it sounds like the soft footsteps....

NOTE: There is no creaking of the floors here

It's thump, thump, thump.....

Try a contact mic on the ceiling.

Or... this might work...
Record with the mic in the same room as the footsteps (the 'upstairs
apartment').
Play the resulting recording loud through your monitors.
Record the monitors by putting a mic in another room, or the floor above.

"pcomlow" said:

evidence gathering.....for some peace and quiet


I wish you good luck.
I moved for the very same reason, noisy neighbors above me.
Couldn't find any reasonableness in them, and gathering evidence was
useless since they only would make things worse if they knew I was
doing that.

PS. in my case these sounds were definitely NOT low level, it was
enough to make you sit upright in bed at night, thinking the house
fell apart.......

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

pcomlow wrote:
It sounds like a good quiet preamp is something of a necessity of
which I fail to see the benefit technically.

I WISH I could just somehow buy a Behringer B-1 mic and then just
plug it into the back of my PC's sound card, or if I have to get a
better sound card, that that also..but this doesn't seem to be
technically possible.

That's right, it isn't feasible.

"pcomlow" wrote in message
news:HdG6e.38693$Xs.19682@fed1read03...
I am trying to record extremely low level sounds. These sounds are people's
footsteps from an "upstairs apartment" and people closing doors.....very
low level sounds...

I have a omnidirectional conference microphone from RadioShack

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...uct_id=33-3022

I am using Wavepad softwarea and the results are not good.

I set the sampling at 96k and I can barely hear these sounds. I tried
amplifying them 400% and then doing a noise reduction, but that's not
great...

I really need to record this so that it is reproduceable and when you
listen
to a recording, it sounds like the soft footsteps....

NOTE: There is no creaking of the floors here

It's thump, thump, thump.....



Hi Dave B. here, with another cheap and dirty fix.
Mr. Pcomlow, what kind of a scrounger can you be? are you willing to go
hunting?
Assuming sensitivity is more important than fidelity, small radio speakers
make OK microphones. an old trick for a wall contact microphone was the 4
or 5 inch speaker out of an all American 5 AM tube type radio. The output
transformer was mounted to the transducer 4 ohm speaker side 2,000 ohm
output tube side. given that or something like that; attach a suitable
length of shielded wire to the secondary with the proper connector for the
PC mike input, mount or hold or brace the speaker on the ceiling, preferably
under the space between the floor joists in the area of the most sound you
are trying to capture. This should be a seismic event, baboom baboom.
If you don't have enough gain on your pc audio card, you can't beat an
external preamp sadly or happily for the price of the parts to build one you
can pick up an inexpensive mixer at a pawn shop, I found a Behringer UB-802
for $25.00, Its bare bones only got 2 XLR or quarter inch phone jacks in
does have phantom 48 volts and I'm guising about 115 db of gain from end to
end a versatile little input problem solver.
Happy hunting____________ ;-)

pcomlow wrote:
I don't understand what you mean by having my computer 2-3 rooms away and
have a very long cord?

The problem with going form a mic to your computer directly is that
you have to be literally in another *room* to not pick up the
computer.

David Ballinger wrote:

Hi Dave B. here, with another cheap and dirty fix.
Mr. Pcomlow, what kind of a scrounger can you be? are you willing to go
hunting?
Assuming sensitivity is more important than fidelity, small radio speakers
make OK microphones. an old trick for a wall contact microphone was the 4
or 5 inch speaker out of an all American 5 AM tube type radio. The output
transformer was mounted to the transducer 4 ohm speaker side 2,000 ohm
output tube side. given that or something like that; attach a suitable
length of shielded wire to the secondary with the proper connector for the
PC mike input, mount or hold or brace the speaker on the ceiling, preferably
under the space between the floor joists in the area of the most sound you
are trying to capture. This should be a seismic event, baboom baboom.

Heh. I also mentioned this. Most peolpe don't figure that a big
speaker works well, but it does for picking up ambient noises.

In article ziT6e.38748$Xs.34947@fed1read03,
pcomlow wrote:


I don't understand what you mean by having my computer 2-3 rooms away and
have a very long cord?

Making a PC that operates quietly enough to be used anywhere near a live
microphone is a very expensive, frustrating proposition. "Silent" PC's
are actually down to, say, 20dBA, which is pretty quiet, but not when
you're close to a microphone.

Also, there's other noise to consider, including the electronic noise
that's generated inside the PC case, and the fact that every cable is an
antenna.

I like the MOTU 896 but that's out of my price range for the time being,
although I would definately like that in the future. Couldn't some mixer
board be used?

There are plenty of mixing boards that have good preamps, and even some
very cheap ones that would work quite adequately for, say, recording a
singer and a guitar for example. But your application seems to be
skipping right past "normal", easy things like that where there's enough
signal that a little noise isn't a huge problem.

You're going straight into something that's pretty difficult to pull
off. Noises from an upstairs room? A foley artist wouldn't bother
trying to capture that from an upstairs room. There'd be some trick to
it.

I say this because I have a totally different application that I need to do
also with my PC and that will require some other sound inputs that need to
feed inside to my computer

A low-cost mixing board (e.g., Behringer, Mackie), can help solve all
kinds of problems, as can a decent low-cost sound card (e.g., Delta
AP2496, ESI Juli).

People who post on r.a.p. often seem to have no concept of "shoestring
budget", which is sort of understandable, but not really. I have a
bigger budget as an amateur than I ever had an any of the pro situations
I've been in (college radio, public radio, and sports broadcasting.)

In article cyT6e.38753$Xs.6987@fed1read03,
pcomlow wrote:

as you already figured out, I am not a music pro by any means, so I guess I
am wondering why having only 4 mic channels is not a great deal

It's a great deal. If you are creative with it, you can do anything in
4 channels.

In article ,
Sander deWaal wrote:

I wish you good luck.
I moved for the very same reason, noisy neighbors above me.

This group runs the full range. One guy asking for advice on building
a house in upstate NY for the express purpose of recording a singer,
others having to move out of apartments due to noisy upstairs neighbors.

Pretty much the only requirement I have for housing, is that I can play
my piano. Of course, that means I need space, it needs to be climate
controlled, and it needs to be in a place where =100dB is no problem.

I've sought out places near nightclub districts, airports, college
houses, etc., for the very reason that I *want* noisy neighbors so that
*I* won't be *their* problem.

james wrote:

People who post on r.a.p. often seem to have no concept of "shoestring
budget",

Say what?

"pcomlow" wrote in message
news:reN6e.38723$Xs.17845@fed1read03...
Ok, thanks for the info, especially the Behringer B-1, now I got to figure
out how to hook it up to my PC computer using 1/8 jacks in the back?

It's got those big XLR connectors, but what do you recommend to get
connected to the PC as doesn't this need a 48+ phantom power supply...

any sound cards you recommend to just to "get-the-job-done"?

Creative or their professional series E-MU stuff? will it be worth it as
don't I have to have some mixer board to begin with (any best money for
the
value)

Thanks in advance


The MOTU 896 connects by IEEE1394 (Firewire). You don't need, or want, a
sound card, as they are terribly inferior (even my Turtle Beach Santa Cruz
is noisy in comparison to the MOTU 896. The MOTU also supplies 48V DC
phantom power, over balanced XLR connections. If you're serious about
recording on a limited budget, this setup gives incredible bang for the
buck.

If you went with the sound card option, you would need an outboard phantom
power supply (about $35 per mic). Results would probably suffice, but you'd
be limited greatly in s/n ratio.

I've gotten the B-1s as cheap as $83/each from BSWUSA.com in quantities of
six or greater. You may also find a deal on eBay. Most folks hate Behringer,
so the prices are low on resales. Public apathy is to our benefit as we get
a great deal on a maligned brand name.

Depending on your future applications, you may wish to give serious
consideration to the MOTU 896, used, on eBay. Prices are dropping. There are
deals to be had. I love this box and use it for recording concerts,
fireworks, aircraft--all sorts of events.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION • FILM SCANNING • DVD MASTERING • AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net...


I'm having a lot of fun with my Behringer B-1 condenser mics and the
MOTU
896. This is the dream setup you want for recording sounds that are
inaudible to normal ears.

Get these two items. They work and won't break the bank. The
improtant part is the 896 or something like it. Plugging a mic
into your soundcard isn't going to come close to achieving what
you want unless your computer is 2-3 rooms away and you have a
very long chord(which has problems as well).


Both parts are equally important. A noisy mic isn't going to provide good
results, even with preamps as quiet as the ones in the 896. It's a chain.
Eliminate all the weak links.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

I like the MOTU 896 but that's out of my price range for the time being,
although I would definately like that in the future. Couldn't some mixer
board be used?

Mackie 1202 VLZ pro is very low noise and good VFM, but you're paying
for 4 mic channels.

--
Anahata
-+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827

He needs good A/D converters too. Of what good would a quiet mic, mic pre
and mixer be if the sound card he's using adds 40dB of noise to it all?


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

"james" wrote in message
news:g327e.38813$Xs.11414@fed1read03...
In article ziT6e.38748$Xs.34947@fed1read03,
pcomlow wrote:


I don't understand what you mean by having my computer 2-3 rooms away and
have a very long cord?

Making a PC that operates quietly enough to be used anywhere near a live
microphone is a very expensive, frustrating proposition. "Silent" PC's
are actually down to, say, 20dBA, which is pretty quiet, but not when
you're close to a microphone.


My Sony VAIO notebook is nearly silent. When I need to make a very critical
studio recording, I shut down the desktop PCs and plug the MOTU into the
VAIO and record there. It's also portable.

BTW, anyone power their MOTU 896 off a 'modified sine wave' inverter for
outdoor use? I'm thinking of investing in a pure sine wave inverter, but
just wondering if anyone's used a cheap Xantrex inverter from Costco to
power these.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION • FILM SCANNING • DVD MASTERING • AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

an old trick for a wall contact microphone was the 4
or 5 inch speaker out of an all American 5 AM tube type radio. The output
transformer was mounted to the transducer 4 ohm speaker side 2,000 ohm
output tube side. given that or something like that; attach a suitable
length of shielded wire to the secondary with the proper connector for the
PC mike input, mount or hold or brace the speaker on the ceiling,
preferably
under the space between the floor joists in the area of the most sound you
are trying to capture. This should be a seismic event, baboom baboom.

With that kind of transducer, a direct to the LINE IN will do. But you can
still expect a lot of distortion and very poor frequency response.

Anyway, it sounds like he's in a rent-controlled apartment and the landlord
may be trying to get rid of him so he can lease it at today's rates. This
happened to a freind of mine who lived in the same apt in the Bronx since
1957. They brought in a noisy family with a lot of kids and they jumped up
and down just as hard as they could all night to make life miserable for my
friend, who was still paying 1960s rent rates. He eventually moved to
Florida. Those situations just can't be won.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION • FILM SCANNING • DVD MASTERING • AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-