"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in message


So... is this (surprising result to me) what the experts out there
would expect, and how much better are the more expensive PC cards eg
RME 968pad, lynxone, lynxtwo? In a permanent setup I would buy one of
the more expensive cards if they are audibly superior to the m-audio
2496. Or would I be better off taking a digital output from the 2496
card and using a separates DAC?

Welcome to the world of diminishing returns.

Yes, the AP2496 is a credible performer, particularly for consumers.
However, the conclusion that 10 times better technical performance (LynxTWO)
would sound better at all, is unwarranted by the relevant facts about human
perception.

If I post this enough times maybe it'll eventually appear in the 'groups....
Sorry if you've seen this posting before but I cannot see it at all.

I decided to trial an "M-Audio Audiophile 2496" card which cost me well
under £100 to see how viable "PC as source" is. I usually listen to a Denson
Beat B500/Linn Kairn/LK2/Acoustic-Energy-AE1 and I simply plugged the PC
output into the Kairns Aux-1 inputs. The PC is a Dell 8300 which is
reasonably near to being silent (I can't hear if it is switched on from
across the room)

I am simply amazed at the performance of this cheap PC card. With a variety
of music styles from Eminem to Hornsby to Mozart I find it hard to
distinguish between the Denson and the PC, and my wife and son claim to be
completely unable to tell which is playing. I had understood that PCs were a
poor environment for a DAC and I was very surprised at this result. If
pushed I would say that the Denson is warmer and more musical but the
difference is sufficiently small that I am not convinced that it is not my
subjective knowledge of the source coming through.

So... is this (surprising result to me) what the experts out there would
expect, and how much better are the more expensive PC cards eg RME 968pad,
lynxone, lynxtwo? In a permanent setup I would buy one of the more expensive
cards if they are audibly superior to the m-audio 2496. Or would I be better
off taking a digital output from the 2496 card and using a separates DAC?

Tom

"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in
message

So... is this (surprising result to me) what the experts out there
would expect, and how much better are the more expensive PC cards eg
RME 968pad, lynxone, lynxtwo? In a permanent setup I would buy one
of the more expensive cards if they are audibly superior to the
m-audio 2496. Or would I be better off taking a digital output from
the 2496 card and using a separates DAC?

Welcome to the world of diminishing returns.

Yes, the AP2496 is a credible performer, particularly for consumers.
However, the conclusion that 10 times better technical performance
(LynxTWO) would sound better at all, is unwarranted by the relevant
facts about human perception.

Thank you Arny, I couldn't see the AP2496 on your PCAVTech comparison
sheet so I wasn't sure where it would fit in your measurements.

Delta 66 or Delta 1010LT.

I think that you mean that it wouldn't be worth me buying a better PC
card as my ears will not up to hearing the difference when played
through my consumer (or any?) equipment...

Your ears, my ears, everybody's ears.

This feels like something
I'd love to test aurally but I think I am unlikely to be lent a
variety of cards to audition.... It goes against the grain of my past
experiences with consumer hi-fi that such a cheap DAC cannot be
meaningfully bettered for CD sourced data playback purposes. Anyone
want to lend me a Lynxxxx?

The LynxOne is about midway between the AP2496 and the LynxTWO in terms of
measured perforamnce. Sonically, they can all get most normal record and
playback jobs done just fine. If you want to optimize your system further,
look elsewhere.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in message


So... is this (surprising result to me) what the experts out there
would expect, and how much better are the more expensive PC cards eg
RME 968pad, lynxone, lynxtwo? In a permanent setup I would buy one of
the more expensive cards if they are audibly superior to the m-audio
2496. Or would I be better off taking a digital output from the 2496
card and using a separates DAC?

Welcome to the world of diminishing returns.

Yes, the AP2496 is a credible performer, particularly for consumers.
However, the conclusion that 10 times better technical performance
(LynxTWO)
would sound better at all, is unwarranted by the relevant facts about
human
perception.

Thank you Arny, I couldn't see the AP2496 on your PCAVTech comparison sheet
so I wasn't sure where it would fit in your measurements.

I think that you mean that it wouldn't be worth me buying a better PC card
as my ears will not up to hearing the difference when played through my
consumer (or any?) equipment... This feels like something I'd love to test
aurally but I think I am unlikely to be lent a variety of cards to
audition.... It goes against the grain of my past experiences with consumer
hi-fi that such a cheap DAC cannot be meaningfully bettered for CD sourced
data playback purposes. Anyone want to lend me a Lynxxxx?

Tom

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in
message

So... is this (surprising result to me) what the experts out there
would expect, and how much better are the more expensive PC cards eg
RME 968pad, lynxone, lynxtwo? In a permanent setup I would buy one
of the more expensive cards if they are audibly superior to the
m-audio 2496. Or would I be better off taking a digital output from
the 2496 card and using a separates DAC?

Yes, the AP2496 is a credible performer, particularly for consumers.
However, the conclusion that 10 times better technical performance
(LynxTWO) would sound better at all, is unwarranted by the relevant
facts about human perception.

I think that you mean that it wouldn't be worth me buying a better PC
card as my ears will not up to hearing the difference when played
through my consumer (or any?) equipment...

Your ears, my ears, everybody's ears.

The LynxOne is about midway between the AP2496 and the LynxTWO in terms of
measured perforamnce. Sonically, they can all get most normal record and
playback jobs done just fine. If you want to optimize your system further,
look elsewhere.


OK, this begs another question. I can put together a silent-ish PC with the
AP2496 for well under £1000, probably around £800 with a big enough HD to
store 400-500 lossless CDs. You have compiled technical evidence that
implies that for listening to CD originated music this source cannot be
*meaningfully* bettered for consumer purposes (I think, correct me if I am
misunderstanding you). Why, therefore, would any consumer pay more than this
for a home CD replay system. eg From memory the Linn CD12 retails for around
£12,000 and presumably the people who buy it are happy with the
value-for-money when they listen to the music. What sonic advantage is the
purchasor of such a system gaining? Are these high end systems introducing
deliberate "euphonic distortion" that makes the music sound better? Or what?
Tom

"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in message


OK, this begs another question. I can put together a silent-ish PC
with the AP2496 for well under £1000, probably around £800 with a big
enough HD to store 400-500 lossless CDs. You have compiled technical
evidence that implies that for listening to CD originated music this
source cannot be *meaningfully* bettered for consumer purposes (I
think, correct me if I am misunderstanding you).

That's pretty much it.

Why, therefore, would any consumer pay more than this for a home CD
replay system. eg
From memory the Linn CD12 retails for around £12,000 and presumably
the people who buy it are happy with the value-for-money when they
listen to the music.

....not a lot of people.

What sonic advantage is the purchasor of such a system gaining?

The issue of computers as audio front ends has been discussed here many
times.

As I said, not a lot of people buy $10,000+ CD players. Non-audio factors
such as appearance, adulation in the press, pride of ownership no doubt are
part of their perceived value. Comared to mid-fi CD players in the $150-300
range, many would argue that there never was any sonic advantage or even
sonic difference.

Computer audio front-ends have plusses and minuses. If you compare the $1000
HTPC to comparable DVD players, you find that the DVD player generally costs
a lot less. Traditional audio players play media directly, so you don't have
to spend a lot of time ripping CDs to load their hard drives.

Are these high end systems introducing deliberate
"euphonic distortion" that makes the music sound better? Or what?

I don't think that high end optical disc players have ever been found to
have sonic advantages over good mid-fi players in time-synched,
level-matched, bias-controlled listening tests. The best that can be said
for the sound of the computer-based player is that it sounds pretty much the
same.

People either perceive the computer juke box concept as being a plus or a
minus. For the most part the SOTA in juke box type players has passed to the
portable players, which have roughly equal sound quality, at least out to
their output jacks.

"Heinz Kiosk" wrote


OK, this begs another question. I can put together a silent-ish PC with
the
AP2496 for well under £1000, probably around £800 with a big enough HD to
store 400-500 lossless CDs. You have compiled technical evidence that
implies that for listening to CD originated music this source cannot be
*meaningfully* bettered for consumer purposes (I think, correct me if I am
misunderstanding you). Why, therefore, would any consumer pay more than
this
for a home CD replay system. eg From memory the Linn CD12 retails for
around
£12,000 and presumably the people who buy it are happy with the
value-for-money when they listen to the music. What sonic advantage is the
purchasor of such a system gaining? Are these high end systems introducing
deliberate "euphonic distortion" that makes the music sound better? Or
what?
Tom


OK, now that Arny seems to have learned that best approach in a UK newsgroup
is *not* to try and batter retired MDs in their 50's around the head with a
'figurative baseball bat', I would be the first to say he's probably the
best person here to advise on PC Audio matters (bar none) and will, no
doubt, set you straight.

If, however, you draw a response from the aptly-named 'Rosie Bull****ter' I
suggest you disregard it entirely, as whatever he says will be very highly
'tinted' by your mention of the word 'Linn'' (at the very least)!

Wait and see...... ;-)

"Keith G" wrote in message


OK, now that Arny seems to have learned that best approach in a UK
newsgroup is *not* to try and batter retired MDs in their 50's around
the head with a 'figurative baseball bat', I would be the first to
say he's probably the best person here to advise on PC Audio matters
(bar none) and will, no doubt, set you straight.

The negative impact that the usual list of suspects on RAO has had on RAO
veterans cannot be discounted.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in message


The issue of computers as audio front ends has been discussed here many
times.

Thank you for your input, which has been very straightforward. Sorry if you
are repeating a well-worn rut. It is new to me. I'll go and google the
archives some more...

Tom

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...
OK, now that Arny seems to have learned that best approach in a UK
newsgroup
is *not* to try and batter retired MDs in their 50's around the head
with a
'figurative baseball bat', I would be the first to say he's probably the
best person here to advise on PC Audio matters (bar none) and will, no
doubt, set you straight.

As the Kroobeast is prone to say, that's an opinion you get to have.

So if you, or anybody, thinks Krooger has offered useful information,
my advice is to retain what you believe is useful, and not to correct
his omissions, misstatements, or deceptions. It's not worth it.


If you have a different opinion about my original question, but you don't
want to get into a public slanging match, please e-mail me privately.

Thank you.

Tom

Keith G said:

OK, now that Arny seems to have learned that best approach in a UK
newsgroup
is *not* to try and batter retired MDs in their 50's around the head
with a
'figurative baseball bat', I would be the first to say he's probably the
best person here to advise on PC Audio matters (bar none) and will, no
doubt, set you straight.

As the Kroobeast is prone to say, that's an opinion you get to have.

Regardless of which newsgroups a thread might inhabit, Krooger is a
compulsive liar. As soon as somebody offers the slightest disagreement
with anything he has posted, you can forget about the thread offering
further useful information. It will degenerate quickly into one of
Krooger's infamous "never admit error" last stands against logic.
There are a multitude of examples of this scenario littering the
Usenet archive.

So if you, or anybody, thinks Krooger has offered useful information,
my advice is to retain what you believe is useful, and not to correct
his omissions, misstatements, or deceptions. It's not worth it.

And your reply offered what valueable assistance to the OP?

I don't know the personalities here that well, but Arny's response seemed
logical and reasoned - he may not be right by your standards, but his
opinion - which was invited - was valid. I'd've respected a well-reasoned
counter-point, but an OT slagging just makes you look like a cock.

My, non-scientific, experience with PC hifi has been positive. These days I
spend more time listening to music at my desk then in front of my hifi and
so I have set up some rather OTT amplification and speakers (Alchemist
Kraken Pre Amp and 2 x bridged Kraken Power Amps under the desk).

The speakers are, in my opinion, a compromise in that they had to be
magnetically shielded, fit on the desk and blend in with the environment. I
tried LOADS of designs out specifically for this use and settled on a pair
of B&W VM1s. I don't know if I could've done better within the restaints
outlined, although I might change these to a pair of LS3/5as or Linn Katans
or Wharfedale Evo 10s (preferable choices if magnetic shielding and size
tolerances were increased as might be possible when I move my office
around - on the whole I work from home). I would like improved low-frequency
performance.

Most of the music is MP3-based and it is here that I note the biggest loss
(compared with listening to less-compressed CD through the PC's CD ROM
drive). It is certainly worth compressing at higher rates than the typically
accepted 128kb/s. 320 is essential IMO and, given that HD storage costs
about 40p/GB, this is a non-issue. Otherwise I'd say the weak-link is the
speakers, not the front-end.

Contrarily, on my "proper" hifi setup, I use an Audiolab 8000CD as my main
digital front end, which I bought having heard many options up to the £1k
mark. I listened to the common options at the time costing half the amount
(Marantz CD63KI Sig, Arcam Alpha 6 etc) and was very happy to spend the
extra, based solely on my own feelings of sound quality. If the bulbs didn't
keep failing in the LCD, it would be the perfect CD player (for me).

"JustMe" wrote in message
...
Contrarily, on my "proper" hifi setup, I use an Audiolab 8000CD as my main
digital front end, which I bought having heard many options up to the £1k
mark. I listened to the common options at the time costing half the amount
(Marantz CD63KI Sig, Arcam Alpha 6 etc) and was very happy to spend the
extra, based solely on my own feelings of sound quality. If the bulbs
didn't
keep failing in the LCD, it would be the perfect CD player (for me).


Have you ever tried the experiment of plugging your PC line output into your
"proper" amplifier? To get a meaningful comparison with the Audiolab you'd
have to rip the audition CDs uncompressed into the PC, I think, but that
only takes about 2 minutes per CD on my PC. When I bought the Denson about
5 years ago I auditioned it against a £500 player (Rega if I recall) and a
Naim that was also around £1000. In that audition the Denson won hands down.
But that audition wasn't in the comfort of my own home, and now I wonder if
other factors made the players sound different.

Tom

"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in message
...
"JustMe" wrote in message
...
Contrarily, on my "proper" hifi setup, I use an Audiolab 8000CD as my
main
digital front end, which I bought having heard many options up to the
£1k
mark. I listened to the common options at the time costing half the
amount
(Marantz CD63KI Sig, Arcam Alpha 6 etc) and was very happy to spend the
extra, based solely on my own feelings of sound quality. If the bulbs
didn't
keep failing in the LCD, it would be the perfect CD player (for me).


Have you ever tried the experiment of plugging your PC line output into
your
"proper" amplifier? To get a meaningful comparison with the Audiolab you'd
have to rip the audition CDs uncompressed into the PC, I think, but that
only takes about 2 minutes per CD on my PC.

Not with CD audio - I'll have to give it an A-B some time.
But not right now P

In article ,
"JustMe" wrote:

drive). It is certainly worth compressing at higher rates than the typically
accepted 128kb/s. 320 is essential IMO

How closely did you test this? Just curious.

With crappy PC speakers, 160kbps was noticeably better than 128; and
still a smidge under the CD. With real speakers, 192 was much less so,
but I found that VBR that *averaged* about 190 was indistinguishable
from the CD.

--
Matthew Weigel
the email address is real
the contents of the post are not

"JustMe" wrote in message
...
Keith G said:

OK, now that Arny seems to have learned that best approach in a UK
newsgroup
is *not* to try and batter retired MDs in their 50's around the head
with a
'figurative baseball bat', I would be the first to say he's probably
the
best person here to advise on PC Audio matters (bar none) and will, no
doubt, set you straight.

As the Kroobeast is prone to say, that's an opinion you get to have.

Regardless of which newsgroups a thread might inhabit, Krooger is a
compulsive liar. As soon as somebody offers the slightest disagreement
with anything he has posted, you can forget about the thread offering
further useful information. It will degenerate quickly into one of
Krooger's infamous "never admit error" last stands against logic.
There are a multitude of examples of this scenario littering the
Usenet archive.

So if you, or anybody, thinks Krooger has offered useful information,
my advice is to retain what you believe is useful, and not to correct
his omissions, misstatements, or deceptions. It's not worth it.

And your reply offered what valueable assistance to the OP?

I don't know the personalities here that well, but Arny's response seemed
logical and reasoned - he may not be right by your standards, but his
opinion - which was invited - was valid. I'd've respected a well-reasoned
counter-point, but an OT slagging just makes you look like a cock.

I respect Mr. Krueger for his technical abilities and contributions to the
technical groups. I've even defended him on occasion. But over in
rec.audio.opinion, he's a different guy. Takes delight in tweaking some of
the people there, including Middius, and it's true he sometimes just won't
let something go. Like I said, he obviously just enjoys tweaking these
people. It can be humorous but it just goes on and on.
I quit RAO due to all the ad hominum attacks.

Mark Z.


snip

"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message


I respect Mr. Krueger for his technical abilities and contributions
to the technical groups. I've even defended him on occasion.

But over
in rec.audio.opinion, he's a different guy. Takes delight in tweaking
some of the people there, including Middius, and it's true he
sometimes just won't let something go.

My problem is that I go back to the days when RAO was a really pretty good
audio forum. That was before idiots like Zipser and Derrida started working
overtime to ruin the place for people with a serious audio interest. I think
that Middius was brought into the frey by Zippy.

Like I said, he obviously just enjoys tweaking these people.

And, I do it early and often. At one point there was a thread with well over
a thousand posts in just a few days, by them whining about how badly I
nailed them.

It can be humorous but it just goes on and on.

The average IQ of RAO participants really dropped after Middius got
involved.

I quit RAO due to all the ad hominum attacks.

I've always repected you Mark, and your judgements about RAO just make me
respect you more.

George M. Middius wrote in message . ..

Does it have anything to do with your mother?

....Ask the old fag who is terrorised by females. LOL ! :-)

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...
Regardless of which newsgroups a thread might inhabit, Krooger is a
compulsive liar. As soon as somebody offers the slightest disagreement
with anything he has posted, you can forget about the thread offering
further useful information. It will degenerate quickly into one of
Krooger's infamous "never admit error" last stands against logic.
There are a multitude of examples of this scenario littering the
Usenet archive.

So if you, or anybody, thinks Krooger has offered useful information,
my advice is to retain what you believe is useful, and not to correct
his omissions, misstatements, or deceptions. It's not worth it.


I conclude that Mr Krueger is telling the truth in this thread at least,
since AFAICS no-one here has contradicted a single detail in any of his
replies to me, either publicly or privately. If anyone has a technical or
subjective opinion (either in agreement with Mr Krueger or in opposition to
him) about PCs vs CD players then put up or shut up. I have no interest in
your personal animosities, which seem to have nothing to do with the merits
of audio equipment.

Tom

What I meant by "tweaking" was that he loves to provoke you guys.

I'd be surprised if you really don't know the common usage of "ad hominum"
(it's used all the time in these groups) but just in case, it's Latin for
"to the man" which means, obviously, a personal attack.


Mark Z.



--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Mark D. Zacharias said:

I respect Mr. Krueger for his technical abilities and contributions to
the
technical groups. I've even defended him on occasion. But over in
rec.audio.opinion, he's a different guy. Takes delight in tweaking some
of
the people there, including Middius, and it's true he sometimes just
won't
let something go. Like I said, he obviously just enjoys tweaking these
people. It can be humorous but it just goes on and on.

Better not let your other hero, the estimable Fecklebeans, hear you
glorifying "tweaking". You'll get thrown out of the Morons' Club.

I quit RAO due to all the ad hominum attacks.

I can only guess what you mean by "ad hominum". You've already shown
you love to distort language beyond recognition (using "tweaking" for
"lying"). Does it have anything to do with your mother?

"George M. Middius" wrote in message

Mark D. Zacharias said:

What I meant by "tweaking" was that he loves to provoke you guys.

That is not Krooger's motivation.

Middius reads minds as part of his general omniscience.

"Heinz Kiosk" wrote in message


I conclude that Mr Krueger is telling the truth in this thread at
least, since AFAICS no-one here has contradicted a single detail in
any of his replies to me, either publicly or privately. If anyone has
a technical or subjective opinion (either in agreement with Mr
Krueger or in opposition to him) about PCs vs CD players then put up
or shut up. I have no interest in your personal animosities, which
seem to have nothing to do with the merits of audio equipment.

Animosities are all that they've got to play with.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Mark D. Zacharias Shelleyed:

I can only guess what you mean by "ad hominum". You've already shown
you love to distort language beyond recognition (using "tweaking" for
"lying"). Does it have anything to do with your mother?

I'd be surprised if you really don't know the common usage of "ad
hominum"
(it's used all the time in these groups) but just in case, it's Latin
for
"to the man" which means, obviously, a personal attack.

You're being dumb on so many levels that I'll just observe I've
corrected your lame top-posted response, and leave you to ponder your
own MVP error average.



Please reply with evidence of the last time you ever fixed a broken piece of
electronic equipment, other than just dumb luck, and/or the last time you
actually helped someone having a technical problem, other than just dumb
luck.

Have you any technical qualifications at all? If so, then why do we never
see any evidence of same?

BTW I prefer top-posting. **** off if you don't like it.


Mark Z.

Heinz Kiosk wrote:

Why, therefore, would any consumer pay more than this
for a home CD replay system. eg From memory the Linn CD12 retails for around
£12,000 and presumably the people who buy it are happy with the
value-for-money when they listen to the music.

Ppl that have the kind of money to spend on kit like that have to spend it on
something I guess !

I suppose you're buying into the 'dream' as extolled by clever marketing.

No doubt the CD12 is well engineered - but really !


Graham

Top-posted. Waah.

I got curious and Googled the terms "Thanks Arny", "Thanks Mark", Thanks
"Middius".

The large majority of pertinent results were positive "thank you's" for Arny
and myself for actually helping people with their problems. I dare say the
same was not true for Mr. Middius.

I'll wait for the usual vulgar attack from him, then probably just killfile
him (again). Not worth raising my blood pressure even one point.

Mark Z.


"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message
...

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Mark D. Zacharias Shelleyed:

I can only guess what you mean by "ad hominum". You've already shown
you love to distort language beyond recognition (using "tweaking"
for
"lying"). Does it have anything to do with your mother?

I'd be surprised if you really don't know the common usage of "ad
hominum"
(it's used all the time in these groups) but just in case, it's Latin
for
"to the man" which means, obviously, a personal attack.

You're being dumb on so many levels that I'll just observe I've
corrected your lame top-posted response, and leave you to ponder your
own MVP error average.



Please reply with evidence of the last time you ever fixed a broken piece
of
electronic equipment, other than just dumb luck, and/or the last time you
actually helped someone having a technical problem, other than just dumb
luck.

Have you any technical qualifications at all? If so, then why do we never
see any evidence of same?

BTW I prefer top-posting. **** off if you don't like it.


Mark Z.

"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message

Top-posted. Waah.

I got curious and Googled the terms "Thanks Arny", "Thanks Mark",
Thanks "Middius".

The large majority of pertinent results were positive "thank you's"
for Arny and myself for actually helping people with their problems.
I dare say the same was not true for Mr. Middius.

I'll wait for the usual vulgar attack from him, then probably just
killfile him (again). Not worth raising my blood pressure even one
point.

Middius has made precious few substantial audio-related posts over his
lengthy career. I think they can be counted on the fingers, maybe one hand.
My recollection is that Middius was invited onto RAO by Steve Zipser, when
Steve started getting major flack over flunking Nousaine's power amp DBT.
Or, he might have been just a renamed sockpupppet. He is working under an
alias, as last time I looked there was no trace of George Middius or any
person named Middius in the real world. To his credit, he doesn't deny that
he is a sockpuppet.

At any rate he has mounted a vigorous campaign to smear people like
Nousaine, Ferstler, and myself. He uses a combination of private email and
phone calls to program his converts. However, once he gets them programmed,
they seem to be able to go into autonomous mode. The good news is that for
some odd reason, most of his programees never stray from RAO. The few that
have, were mostly beaten to a pulp by the regulars in the groups where they
strayed to. If they behave any place else, as they behave here, they tend to
get pressured or kicked off by their ISPs, etc.

"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message
...

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Mark D. Zacharias Shelleyed:

I can only guess what you mean by "ad hominum". You've already shown
you love to distort language beyond recognition (using "tweaking"
for
"lying"). Does it have anything to do with your mother?

I'd be surprised if you really don't know the common usage of "ad
hominum"
(it's used all the time in these groups) but just in case, it's Latin
for
"to the man" which means, obviously, a personal attack.

You're being dumb on so many levels that I'll just observe I've
corrected your lame top-posted response, and leave you to ponder your
own MVP error average.



Please reply with evidence of the last time you ever fixed a broken piece
of
electronic equipment, other than just dumb luck, and/or the last time you
actually helped someone having a technical problem, other than just dumb
luck.

Have you any technical qualifications at all? If so, then why do we never
see any evidence of same?

BTW I prefer top-posting. **** off if you don't like it.


Mark Z.



Top posting is annoying.
Bottom posting is about the only thing that
everyone seems to agree on around here, be they
objectivist or subjectivist, music lover or
technocrat.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

.. Or, he might have been just a renamed sockpupppet.


He uses a combination of private email and
phone calls to program his converts.


Yes, he definitely calls me on his sock phone.

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message

Heinz Kiosk wrote:

Why, therefore, would any consumer pay more than this
for a home CD replay system. eg From memory the Linn CD12 retails
for around £12,000 and presumably the people who buy it are happy
with the value-for-money when they listen to the music.

Ppl that have the kind of money to spend on kit like that have to
spend it on something I guess !

I suppose you're buying into the 'dream' as extolled by clever
marketing.

No doubt the CD12 is well engineered - but really !

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.

In article , Arny Krueger
writes
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message

Heinz Kiosk wrote:

Why, therefore, would any consumer pay more than this
for a home CD replay system. eg From memory the Linn CD12 retails
for around £12,000 and presumably the people who buy it are happy
with the value-for-money when they listen to the music.

Ppl that have the kind of money to spend on kit like that have to
spend it on something I guess !

I suppose you're buying into the 'dream' as extolled by clever
marketing.

No doubt the CD12 is well engineered - but really !

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.



Now that...I could believe!.......
--
Tony Sayer

George M. Middius wrote:

BTW I prefer top-posting.

That explains a lot. You can't figure out obvious, commonplace stuff,
you rant and rave in non sequiturs, and you like top-posting. You
probably walk around with your underwear showing and your shoes
untied.

You really are a most unpleasant individual aren't you?

*plonk*

Arny Krueger wrote:

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.

Sounds about right to me.

There's only so much that you can actually realistically spend on the
component items even when you are using the best currently available.

For example the DACs in a CD player ( surely one of the most critical items )
will only come from a limited number of specialist manufacturers whose
products have to be priced to suit the larger consumer market. The cost of
developing ICs is so high that no-one is going to develop specially just for
boutique hi-fi.

I would cvertainly expect such equipment to use the very best standards of
circuit design to extract the ultimate performance from its components and
maybe a smattering of novel circuit design, but in truth, there is only so
much you can do these days with modern highly integrated solutions. It's not
like you can re-invent the audio path.


Graham

As usual, no substance, only the usual abuse.

Purposefully top-posted.

Too bad.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Mark D. Zacharias said:

[snip garbaged-up line breaks]

You're being dumb on so many levels that I'll just observe I've
corrected your lame top-posted response, and leave you to ponder your
own MVP error average.

Please reply
[blah blah blah]

Do you have ADD or some other condition?


BTW I prefer top-posting.

That explains a lot. You can't figure out obvious, commonplace stuff, you
rant and rave in non sequiturs, and you like top-posting. You probably
walk around with your underwear showing and your shoes untied.

Typical. No substance.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Ooooooh, the stench. The fetor from Michigan is overwhelming! God only
knows what Krooger is up to in his hovel today. The place must be over
****ing flowing with waste products of all kinds, including you-know-what.

My recollection is that Middius was invited onto RAO by Steve Zipser

Did an angel tell you that, Turdy? My recollection is you were arrested
for
child abuse but allowed to plead down and avoid prison.

Or, he might have been just a renamed sockpupppet. He is working under
an
alias, as last time I looked there was no trace of George Middius or any
person named Middius in the real world. To his credit, he doesn't deny
that
he is a sockpuppet.

And notably, you haven't denied that you are a 180-lb pile of turds that,
through a miracle of unknown origin, is able to operate a computer and
broadcast your paranoia and other mental infirmities throughout
cyberspace.

At any rate he has mounted a vigorous campaign to smear people like
Nousaine, Ferstler, and myself. He uses a combination of private email
and
phone calls to program his converts.

You're still fantasizing about me, aren't you. Allow me to feed your
paranoia.... Yes, I am great and powerful. I have commanded people with a
vested interest in the audio industry, such as Paul Bamborough, Glenn
Zelniker, and John Atkinson, to take time away from their businesses in
order to discredit the lowly Krooborg on Usenet. And these people have
done
my bidding, for I am lord of all I survey, and they are terrified of
defying me.

However, once he gets them programmed,
they seem to be able to go into autonomous mode.

Or perhaps you have that backwards.... Then again, you do a lot of things
backwards, don't you? You put on a raincoat before hopping on a hooker.
You
molest your children after they die. You write a check for the doctor bill
and then put your stool sample right on the check. You get thrown out of
your church because of accusations of pedophilia and collecting kiddie
porn, then you tell the world the accusations are true.

The good news is that for
some odd reason, most of his programees never stray from RAO.

Do you remember your previous conspiracy theories, Turdy? In the past, the
mastermind was always Lord Atkinson. Are you telling us all those crazy
rants were lies? Why did you tell dozens of lies about John Atkinson?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.



What 'we'? You and your teenage trainees?

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks
ago, and found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble
the drive and circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice
looking case, maybe add a gratuitous output buffer board, jack the
price up by a factor of about 20, and let the fun begin.



What 'we'? You and your teenage trainees?

Deep, very deep Art.

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:52:56 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Arny Krueger
writes
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message

Heinz Kiosk wrote:

Why, therefore, would any consumer pay more than this
for a home CD replay system. eg From memory the Linn CD12 retails
for around £12,000 and presumably the people who buy it are happy
with the value-for-money when they listen to the music.

Ppl that have the kind of money to spend on kit like that have to
spend it on something I guess !

I suppose you're buying into the 'dream' as extolled by clever
marketing.

No doubt the CD12 is well engineered - but really !

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.



Now that...I could believe!.......

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:20:25 -0400, George M. Middius
wrote:

You're still fantasizing about me, aren't you. Allow me to feed your
paranoia.... Yes, I am great and powerful. I have commanded people with a
vested interest in the audio industry, such as Paul Bamborough, Glenn
Zelniker, and John Atkinson, to take time away from their businesses in
order to discredit the lowly Krooborg on Usenet. And these people have done
my bidding, for I am lord of all I survey, and they are terrified of
defying me.

Actually no, you're just a sad little crip, but Jesus loves you.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:52:56 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.


Now that...I could believe!.......

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

No surprise there then !

Wasn't there a better transport available ?

At least my old Denon DCD-1700 has a transport that feels of 'battleship
quality'. In fact the entire player is built like that. Unlike many modern CD
players that you could pick up with your little finger, this is one that
actually inspires confidence due to its sheer weight !


Graham

Pooh Bear said:

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

No surprise there then !

Wasn't there a better transport available ?

What's wrong with the Philips CD12 or their later reincarnations?
It's a teriffic mechanism. Arcam and many other good players use them
as well.
For audio use, I prefer the TEAC VRDS or Pioneer stable platter
mechanism, though. But that's because I'm a DIY-er who always looks
for things to improve. :-)

At least my old Denon DCD-1700 has a transport that feels of 'battleship
quality'. In fact the entire player is built like that. Unlike many modern CD
players that you could pick up with your little finger, this is one that
actually inspires confidence due to its sheer weight !

You will note that my recently acquired Pioneer stable platter player
sounds way better after I've filled it up to its top with concrete,
note.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Sander deWaal wrote:

Pooh Bear said:

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

No surprise there then !

Wasn't there a better transport available ?

What's wrong with the Philips CD12 or their later reincarnations?
It's a teriffic mechanism. Arcam and many other good players use them
as well.

I have to confess that I'm slightly biased against Philips *mechanisms*.

Going *way back* Philips have engineered very mechanically weak products that
simply break very easily.

I dare say that they may have learnt their lesson but I would like to see evidence
of same !


For audio use, I prefer the TEAC VRDS or Pioneer stable platter
mechanism, though. But that's because I'm a DIY-er who always looks
for things to improve. :-)

At least my old Denon DCD-1700 has a transport that feels of 'battleship
quality'. In fact the entire player is built like that. Unlike many modern CD
players that you could pick up with your little finger, this is one that
actually inspires confidence due to its sheer weight !

You will note that my recently acquired Pioneer stable platter player
sounds way better after I've filled it up to its top with concrete,
note.

Platter ? Vinyl ?

My Garrard 401 rumbles like crazy if you don't mount it in a 'block of stone' !


Graham