[Audio Empire]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 10:48:00 -0700, wrote
(in article ):

This week's stereophile in its online offerings has a gem of an article.

'AudioQuest Headquarters Tour'

http://www.stereophile.com/content/a...dquarters-tour

If one would want to produce subjective results guaranteed, the "tests"
described at the wire company could not have been setup more perfectly.

See if you can spot the obvious flaws in the "tests"? Extra points for
those who spot the attempts to vaccinate the author's remarks against
these flaws?


For an even more interesting question, why did they bother when the
outcomes were predictable? Might it have something to do with trying to
vainly evoke science in support of a marketing department?


Magazines have advertisers and often some of the biggest advertisers are
cable companies. After all, cable companies are selling, essentially, nothing
at, often, very high prices. Their profit margins are astronomical! They can
afford to spend a lot of money to advertise. If you ran a magazine would you
want to lose that amount of advertising revenue? Of course not. So naturally,
your not going to bite the hand that feeds you. It's simple business.

Interestingly enough, most audio writers actually BELIEVE that wire makes a
difference, So, of course, when they review a cable, they go on at length
about how much better this cable is than what's in their system now. And,
just as naturally, the cable under test is never worse than what they are
currently using, and just as naturally, they never use a carefully set-up DBT
to ascertain whether or not their "observations" are the product of their
ears or their eyes.

[Kele]

On Jun 13, 1:05=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
.... Interestingly enough, most audio writers actually BELIEVE that
wire makes a
difference, So, of course, when they review a cable, they go on at length
about how much better this cable is than what's in their system now. And,
just as naturally, the cable under test is never worse than what they are
currently using, and just as naturally, they never use a carefully set-up=
DBT
to ascertain whether or not their "observations" are the product of =A0th=
eir
ears or their eyes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Surprised to hear you say "most audio writers actually BELIEVE that
wire makes a difference". That sounds like you think a wire is a
wire. I was fortunate to have someone gift me an assortment of his
stereo wire rejects. Looking all phat mesh colorful and sexy, I
swapped out my old days cable and no difference really. Then another
and bam, what! That obviously sounds different; we both looked at
eachother so I knew he heard it too. This cable was mello, layed
back, and I had the perfect place for it. My center channel speaker
is not like the others; it's bright sounding with a high sensitivity
rating. That mello cable was just what was needed! But there's
more... I tried a Silver (snake brand) cable for video and wow, that
was another eureka momont. I tried a low end Kimber speaker wire swap
and that sounded like crap compared to my M-series; the sound lacked
body like AM radio. So far I'm trippin'; cables do have a sound. Now
for the clincher... My home boy also brought over three power cables
- the insane garden hose variety. I only had one component that
allowed for power cable swapping - my amp. I took off the OEM and put
one of these pythons. Too much base!!! Holy smokes, power cables can
matter just like I read about... whot!? Then another and wow the
sound stage became huge. Then the last one and it reminded me of the
OEM. I put in the OEM and yes the last phat power cable and it were
nearly identical sounding. I opted to retain the huge sound stage
cable in that position. If you mean wire is wire, that may be I don't
know, but the pairing of equipment to certain wire and all the physics
that can be going on does make a very noticeable difference
sometimes. I don't have the most resolving stereo so I presume that
those who do may hear differences even more easily.

I had a little discussion about this with a British fello who had his
own tube amp company. He quickly told me that wire is predictable
(I'm summarizing). He basically said that solid wire will have a high
"slam" factor but rolled off highs, stranded will sound more nuetral,
and silver wire will be highly detailed. I could almost visualize
what must be under the sheath of the assorted wires I tried based on
the sound they impart. Now having seen ads in mags with wire innards
shown, there must be combinations of solid, stranded, and even silver
in use. This would complicate the British bloke's simple description,
but I can see how a wire can be "tuned" in this way. I am using the
gifted wires in cetain places of my stereo where their particular
charachter will offset something I don't like. Only because I had a
bunch of different wires on hand to try one right after the next could
I clearly detect all this wire can make a difference buisiness. In
some cases, if I had purchased a wire it may not sound different than
the stock and then I wouldn't be a believer. If I had purchased the
mello wire and inserted it into a system that didn't need mellowing,
it would sound like crap. Frankly, shopping for the right "sounding"
wire in a particular application would be a hit-and-miss nighmare.
You almost need an assortment at the ready to try. I scored wire from
my man who didn't like these wires in his system, yet some of them for
me worked out great. The wires he has look sweet, I mean damn sweet.
But looks and phatness apparently don't always work out to be
necesarily the best choice. Bottom line IMO, cables do sometimes make
a for better or worse difference.

[Audio Empire]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 11:15:42 -0700, Kele wrote
(in article ):

On Jun 13, 1:05=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
... Interestingly enough, most audio writers actually BELIEVE that
wire makes a
difference, So, of course, when they review a cable, they go on at length
about how much better this cable is than what's in their system now. And,
just as naturally, the cable under test is never worse than what they are
currently using, and just as naturally, they never use a carefully set-up=
DBT
to ascertain whether or not their "observations" are the product of =A0th=
eir
ears or their eyes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Surprised to hear you say "most audio writers actually BELIEVE that
wire makes a difference". That sounds like you think a wire is a
wire.

And since when is a wire NOT a wire?


I was fortunate to have someone gift me an assortment of his
stereo wire rejects. Looking all phat mesh colorful and sexy, I
swapped out my old days cable and no difference really. Then another
and bam, what! That obviously sounds different; we both looked at
eachother so I knew he heard it too.

No disrespect meant, but anecdotal "evidence" of this type is,
scientifically, speaking, essentially, useless.

This cable was mello, layed
back, and I had the perfect place for it. My center channel speaker
is not like the others; it's bright sounding with a high sensitivity
rating. That mello cable was just what was needed! But there's
more... I tried a Silver (snake brand) cable for video and wow, that
was another eureka momont. I tried a low end Kimber speaker wire swap
and that sounded like crap compared to my M-series; the sound lacked
body like AM radio. So far I'm trippin'; cables do have a sound. Now
for the clincher... My home boy also brought over three power cables
- the insane garden hose variety. I only had one component that
allowed for power cable swapping - my amp. I took off the OEM and put
one of these pythons. Too much base!!! Holy smokes, power cables can
matter just like I read about... whot!? Then another and wow the
sound stage became huge. Then the last one and it reminded me of the
OEM. I put in the OEM and yes the last phat power cable and it were
nearly identical sounding. I opted to retain the huge sound stage
cable in that position. If you mean wire is wire, that may be I don't
know, but the pairing of equipment to certain wire and all the physics
that can be going on does make a very noticeable difference
sometimes. I don't have the most resolving stereo so I presume that
those who do may hear differences even more easily.

Like most humans, Those with a more "resolving stereo" hear what the expect
to hear. Those who want to hear differences will hear them. Those who do NOT
wish to hear differences won't hear them. In a correctly set-up Double-Blind
Test (DBT) NEITHER group will hear any differences because there are none.

I had a little discussion about this with a British fello who had his
own tube amp company. He quickly told me that wire is predictable
(I'm summarizing). He basically said that solid wire will have a high
"slam" factor but rolled off highs, stranded will sound more nuetral,
and silver wire will be highly detailed.

Next time you speak to your British "fello", tell him "Poppycock and
balderdash!" He should understand that!

I could almost visualize
what must be under the sheath of the assorted wires I tried based on
the sound they impart. Now having seen ads in mags with wire innards
shown, there must be combinations of solid, stranded, and even silver
in use. This would complicate the British bloke's simple description,
but I can see how a wire can be "tuned" in this way.

Except that there no way that wire, in the lengths used in home stereo and at
audio frequencies can do ANY of those things. That's just fact, my friend. At
the low frequencies that ecompass the audio bandwidth, true conductors don't
have any characteristics that could in any way change the sound. Now a
"cable" manufacturer can build "cables" with little boxes built into them
with external components (like resistors, inductors, and capacitors) of
sufficient values to actually act as fixed audio filters, but those are
merely fixed "tone controls" that you can't alter. They merely attenuate some
portion of the audio band. But these aren't really conductors, any more. They
will likely sound different from one another. But the amount of resistance,
capacitance, and inductance inherent in any wire, in and of ITSELF, cannot
have enough of these characteristics to affect an audio signal in any audible
way.

I am using the
gifted wires in cetain places of my stereo where their particular
charachter will offset something I don't like.

You are deluding yourself. It's just not possible and a DBT would prove it to
you.

Only because I had a
bunch of different wires on hand to try one right after the next could
I clearly detect all this wire can make a difference buisiness. In
some cases, if I had purchased a wire it may not sound different than
the stock and then I wouldn't be a believer. If I had purchased the
mello wire and inserted it into a system that didn't need mellowing,
it would sound like crap. Frankly, shopping for the right "sounding"
wire in a particular application would be a hit-and-miss nighmare.
You almost need an assortment at the ready to try. I scored wire from
my man who didn't like these wires in his system, yet some of them for
me worked out great. The wires he has look sweet, I mean damn sweet.
But looks and phatness apparently don't always work out to be
necesarily the best choice. Bottom line IMO, cables do sometimes make
a for better or worse difference.

Religions come in all shapes and sizes. This is a technological religion, and
like all religions, it's a myth.

But, if it makes you happy to believe this myth (or any other), be my guest.
It's a free country, as they say.

[Rob Tweed]

Next time you speak to your British "fello", tell him "Poppycock and
balderdash!" He should understand that!

Indeed so, we talk like that all the time here, old chap :-)

Rob, don't you know


---

Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR

Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com
Twitter: @rtweed

[Rockinghorse Winner[_7_]]

In article , Kele wrote:
On Jun 13, 1:05=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
... Interestingly enough, most audio writers actually BELIEVE that
wire makes a
difference, So, of course, when they review a cable, they go on at length
about how much better this cable is than what's in their system now. And,
just as naturally, the cable under test is never worse than what they are
currently using, and just as naturally, they never use a carefully set-up=
DBT
to ascertain whether or not their "observations" are the product of =A0th=
eir
ears or their eyes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Surprised to hear you say "most audio writers actually BELIEVE that
wire makes a difference". That sounds like you think a wire is a
wire. I was fortunate to have someone gift me an assortment of his
stereo wire rejects. Looking all phat mesh colorful and sexy, I
swapped out my old days cable and no difference really. Then another
and bam, what! That obviously sounds different; we both looked at
eachother so I knew he heard it too. This cable was mello, layed
back, and I had the perfect place for it. My center channel speaker
is not like the others; it's bright sounding with a high sensitivity
rating. That mello cable was just what was needed! But there's
more... I tried a Silver (snake brand) cable for video and wow, that
was another eureka momont. I tried a low end Kimber speaker wire swap
and that sounded like crap compared to my M-series; the sound lacked
body like AM radio. So far I'm trippin'; cables do have a sound. Now
for the clincher... My home boy also brought over three power cables
- the insane garden hose variety. I only had one component that
allowed for power cable swapping - my amp. I took off the OEM and put
one of these pythons. Too much base!!! Holy smokes, power cables can
matter just like I read about... whot!? Then another and wow the
sound stage became huge. Then the last one and it reminded me of the
OEM. I put in the OEM and yes the last phat power cable and it were
nearly identical sounding. I opted to retain the huge sound stage
cable in that position. If you mean wire is wire, that may be I don't
know, but the pairing of equipment to certain wire and all the physics
that can be going on does make a very noticeable difference
sometimes. I don't have the most resolving stereo so I presume that
those who do may hear differences even more easily.

I had a little discussion about this with a British fello who had his
own tube amp company. He quickly told me that wire is predictable
(I'm summarizing). He basically said that solid wire will have a high
"slam" factor but rolled off highs, stranded will sound more nuetral,
and silver wire will be highly detailed. I could almost visualize
what must be under the sheath of the assorted wires I tried based on
the sound they impart. Now having seen ads in mags with wire innards
shown, there must be combinations of solid, stranded, and even silver
in use. This would complicate the British bloke's simple description,
but I can see how a wire can be "tuned" in this way. I am using the
gifted wires in cetain places of my stereo where their particular
charachter will offset something I don't like. Only because I had a
bunch of different wires on hand to try one right after the next could
I clearly detect all this wire can make a difference buisiness. In
some cases, if I had purchased a wire it may not sound different than
the stock and then I wouldn't be a believer. If I had purchased the
mello wire and inserted it into a system that didn't need mellowing,
it would sound like crap. Frankly, shopping for the right "sounding"
wire in a particular application would be a hit-and-miss nighmare.
You almost need an assortment at the ready to try. I scored wire from
my man who didn't like these wires in his system, yet some of them for
me worked out great. The wires he has look sweet, I mean damn sweet.
But looks and phatness apparently don't always work out to be
necesarily the best choice. Bottom line IMO, cables do sometimes make
a for better or worse difference.


Perhaps. Perhaps not. But what is significant is this: far more dramatic
effects in sound can be acheived by varying speaker placement, and
floor/window/wall treatment, but VERY little press is given to same. Why?
For the simple reason that stereo mags don't carry ads for tile, carpet and
drapes. Doh!

*R* *H*
--
Gaudium mundi, nova stella cæli, Fedora12 (2.6.32 kernel)
procreans solem, pariens parentem, Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76
da manum lapsis, fer opem caducis,
virgo Maria.

[Audio Empire]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 09:35:01 -0700, Rockinghorse Winner wrote
(in article ):

Perhaps. Perhaps not. But what is significant is this: far more dramatic
effects in sound can be acheived by varying speaker placement, and
floor/window/wall treatment, but VERY little press is given to same. Why?
For the simple reason that stereo mags don't carry ads for tile, carpet and
drapes. Doh!

*R* *H*

Almost assuredly. Every now and again, you MIGHT see an article about these
things, but, because these are a process rather than a product, they simply
get short shrift.

But, still, until someone comes-up with a logical "theory" as to how cables
can have a "sound" when the maths (and the measurements) show definitively,
that they have no effect on the frequency response, distortion, or phase
response of the audio signals they are conducting, it's all audiophile
mythology, and the products sold (often for exorbitant sums) are snake oil,
pure and simple.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Jun 19, 2:14=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 09:35:01 -0700, Rockinghorse Winner wrote
(in article ):

Perhaps. Perhaps not. But what is significant is this: far more dramati=
c
effects in sound can be acheived by varying speaker placement, and
floor/window/wall treatment, but VERY little press is given to same. =
=A0Why?
For the simple reason that stereo mags don't carry ads for tile, carpet=
and
drapes. =A0Doh!

*R* *H*

Almost assuredly. Every now and again, you MIGHT see an article about the=
se
things, but, because these are a process rather than a product, they simp=
ly
get short shrift.

But, still, until someone comes-up with a logical "theory" as to how cabl=
es
can have a "sound" when the maths (and the measurements) show definitivel=
y,
that they have no effect on the frequency response, distortion, or phase
response of the audio signals they are conducting, it's all audiophile
mythology, and the products sold (often for exorbitant sums) are snake oi=
l,
pure and simple.

You are putting the cart before the horse here. reality does not hinge
on a human explanation. Gravity did not stop working when physicists
were debating Newtonian gravity and general relativity. You certainly
can make an argument for the need for varifiable evidence to support
the belief in cable sound. But not an argument that someone has to
come up with a theory.

[Audio Empire]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 20:36:51 -0700, Scott wrote
(in article ):

On Jun 19, 2:14=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 09:35:01 -0700, Rockinghorse Winner wrote
(in article ):

Perhaps. Perhaps not. But what is significant is this: far more dramati=
c
effects in sound can be acheived by varying speaker placement, and
floor/window/wall treatment, but VERY little press is given to same. =
=A0Why?
For the simple reason that stereo mags don't carry ads for tile, carpet=
and
drapes. =A0Doh!

*R* *H*

Almost assuredly. Every now and again, you MIGHT see an article about the=
se
things, but, because these are a process rather than a product, they simp=
ly
get short shrift.

But, still, until someone comes-up with a logical "theory" as to how cabl=
es
can have a "sound" when the maths (and the measurements) show definitivel=
y,
that they have no effect on the frequency response, distortion, or phase
response of the audio signals they are conducting, it's all audiophile
mythology, and the products sold (often for exorbitant sums) are snake oi=
l,
pure and simple.

You are putting the cart before the horse here. reality does not hinge
on a human explanation. Gravity did not stop working when physicists
were debating Newtonian gravity and general relativity. You certainly
can make an argument for the need for varifiable evidence to support
the belief in cable sound. But not an argument that someone has to
come up with a theory.

Not at all. This is not a case like gravity. Everyone "sticks" to the planet.
There is no one arguing that some people or some things don't stick to the
planet, Gravity is just a fact, and you're right, the law of gravity doesn't
depend upon human understanding in order for it to function. But cable sound
is NOT a "fact". It is a belief system. And just like religion, some people
believe in the existence of a god (or gods) and some people don't. And like
the existence of gods, logic and science say that the likelihood that cables
have a sound is so small as to be practically nil. Just as non-believers in
religion require some sort of proof that deities exists in order to change
their mind, those who say that cable sound does not and cannot exist, will
require some reasonable scientific theory that explains what cable
characteristics could possibly exist that affect ONLY a paltry, low-frequency
audio signal while not affecting higher frequency video, RF or digital
communications in any way that has ever been detected by ANYBODY.

IOW, what I think that you are trying to say, here is that if cables do have
an audible effect on the signals they pass, and science can't find an
explanation for the phenomenon, will that lack of knowledge make that fact
not true? And conversely, if you believe in cable sound, and it really
doesn't exist, will your belief in it make it a fact? The answer to both of
those questions is NO.

[KH]

On 6/22/2011 8:36 PM, Scott wrote:
On Jun 19, 2:14 pm, Audio wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 09:35:01 -0700, Rockinghorse Winner wrote
(in ):

Perhaps. Perhaps not. But what is significant is this: far more dramatic
effects in sound can be acheived by varying speaker placement, and
floor/window/wall treatment, but VERY little press is given to same. Why?
For the simple reason that stereo mags don't carry ads for tile, carpet and
drapes. Doh!

*R* *H*

Almost assuredly. Every now and again, you MIGHT see an article about these
things, but, because these are a process rather than a product, they simply
get short shrift.

But, still, until someone comes-up with a logical "theory" as to how cables
can have a "sound" when the maths (and the measurements) show definitively,
that they have no effect on the frequency response, distortion, or phase
response of the audio signals they are conducting, it's all audiophile
mythology, and the products sold (often for exorbitant sums) are snake oil,
pure and simple.

You are putting the cart before the horse here. reality does not hinge
on a human explanation. Gravity did not stop working when physicists
were debating Newtonian gravity and general relativity. You certainly
can make an argument for the need for varifiable evidence to support
the belief in cable sound. But not an argument that someone has to
come up with a theory.

Not at all. There is a qualitative difference between any *natural*
artifact or phenomenon, and evaluation of a human engineered device.
Gravity, for example exists, as you said, irrespective of anyone's
observations or theories. It also, and this is crucial, can be reliably
and repeatably measured, i.e. it is trivial to prove that the *effect*
is real, irrespective of cause.

OTOH, an audio cable is the *product* of a theoretical / mathematical
construct, engineered by a human mind. Thus, there is a theory of how a
cable should operate, based on mathematics and engineering design, and
there is reliable, repeatable objective data to support that cable X
performs according to theory and design. It is thus incumbent on
someone claiming that this supporting theoretical construct is wrong,
because it does not account for their anecdotal experience, to overcome
two rationale hurdles; one, they have to demonstrate that there *is*
indeed an effect that lies outside of expected operational parameters
(based on design and use), and two, they need an alternate theory to
explain the differences observed. Lacking the alternate theoretical
underpinning, one cannot accept countervailing evidence as unambiguous,
since test methods will always be suspect until some basis (besides
flawed test design / data acquisition) in theory can be established.

Since hurdle #1 appears sufficiently unobtainable at this point, hurdle
#2 will likely remain moot.

Keith

[Rockinghorse Winner[_7_]]

In article ,
Audio Empire wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 10:48:00 -0700, wrote
(in article ):

This week's stereophile in its online offerings has a gem of an article.

'AudioQuest Headquarters Tour'

http://www.stereophile.com/content/a...dquarters-tour

If one would want to produce subjective results guaranteed, the "tests"
described at the wire company could not have been setup more perfectly.

See if you can spot the obvious flaws in the "tests"? Extra points for
those who spot the attempts to vaccinate the author's remarks against
these flaws?


For an even more interesting question, why did they bother when the
outcomes were predictable? Might it have something to do with trying to
vainly evoke science in support of a marketing department?


Magazines have advertisers and often some of the biggest advertisers are
cable companies. After all, cable companies are selling, essentially, nothing
at, often, very high prices. Their profit margins are astronomical! They can
afford to spend a lot of money to advertise. If you ran a magazine would you
want to lose that amount of advertising revenue? Of course not. So naturally,
your not going to bite the hand that feeds you. It's simple business.

Of course. Sometimes the only thing to be said is the obvious.


Interestingly enough, most audio writers actually BELIEVE that wire makes a
difference, So, of course, when they review a cable, they go on at length
about how much better this cable is than what's in their system now. And,
just as naturally, the cable under test is never worse than what they are
currently using, and just as naturally, they never use a carefully set-up DBT
to ascertain whether or not their "observations" are the product of their
ears or their eyes.


*R* *H*
--
Gaudium mundi, nova stella cæli, Fedora12 (2.6.32 kernel)
procreans solem, pariens parentem, Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76
da manum lapsis, fer opem caducis,
virgo Maria.