[Raymond Koonce]

Hi RATs,

I had the good fortune to attend the European Triode Festival in
Biezenmortel Netherlands a few days ago. It was a cool fest with about
80 participants. I made a web page of photos I shot there. Take a look
at http://www.timebanditaudio.com/etf2007/etf2007.html

Raymond

[Patrick Turner]

Raymond Koonce wrote:

Hi RATs,

I had the good fortune to attend the European Triode Festival in
Biezenmortel Netherlands a few days ago. It was a cool fest with about
80 participants. I made a web page of photos I shot there. Take a look
at http://www.timebanditaudio.com/etf2007/etf2007.html

Raymond

Some nice work done by diyers there but a lot is very poorly made
breadboard stuff. But they gotta start somewhere.

Lots of 845s in there.

I am proceeding seriously with constructing a
pair of monoblock 845 amps with two in parallel per channel.

So far I have power and OPTs both with 72mm stacks of 51mm tongue GOSS
lams,
and 5 chokes per channel, two 4H B+ chokes, one 60H choke for
dc supply to 3 paralleled EL84 SET drivers, and two 20mH chokes for the
pair of choke input
supply for 10Vdc x 3.3Adc heaters to 845.

I have so far 14 x 470uF x 400v rated caps.

I thought the chassis was big enough when I began but I wish it was 25
mm in each dimension....

Choke details as follows,

4H+ at 200mA,
32S x 25T, GOSS E&I.
1,400t x 0.4mm dia Cu, 30 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.18mm right across the core.( actual gap = 0.36mm )

4H+ at 200mA, but only 160mA used,
25S x 25T, GOSS E&I.
1.750t x 0.35mm Cu dia, 42 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.27mm right across core, ( actual gap = 0.54mm )

60H at 40mA,
32S x 25T GOSS E&I.
5,200t x 0.2mm Cu dia, 440 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.27mm right across core, ( actual gap = 0.54mm )

21mH at 3.3A,
25S x 25T older quality re-cycled transformer iron,
156t x 1.32mm dia Cu, 0.24 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.54mm right across core, ( actual gap = 1.08mm ).

All gaps determined experimentally for highest inductance at
dc current nominated in test circuits equivalent to
actual amp operation conditions.

For example, to test the 4H and 60H chokes,
a test circuit was made as follows :-
+250Vdc supply with adjustable 50W resistance feed to the choke to set
the dc current,
then 100 ohms between choke and 0V so that choke Iac and Idc can both be
measured.
AC applied to top of choke from variac at 50Hz with an isolation electro
cap of 2,500uF.
A CRO was used to monitor choke current and distortion.

Inductance and gapping tests done at 10.0Vrms of 50Hz applied to choke,
with and without dc applied.
Phenomena observed. Without a gap and with no dc, inductance was high,
with iron µ = approx 650.
When dc was applied, inductance fell to 1/5 as the iron µ is affected by
dc magnetization.
As layers of notebook paper each 0.09mm thick were placed into the gap
right across the core,
the inductance with no dc reduced but tended not to fall when dc was
applied.
With dc applied, paper gapping was added and sheets recorded until peak
in inductance
was achieved. The final gap was that given by whatever number of paper
layers needed to give
a gap just above that for maximum L.
Choke bolts were tightened, E&I lams tapped up tight with dc applied,
and all with meters connected.
Chokes were soaked in varninsh, drained of excess and baked and
re-tested.
Using iron yokes to clamp chokes together made no difference to L.

The performance of the chokes with a much higher ac voltage applied
up to 150Vrms in the case of the 60H choke showed a change of inductance
of less than 2%.
The 4H chokes will have only about 2Vrms across them and at such a low
Vac,
their inductance will actually be slightly under 4H because of the
effect
of reducing iron µ with a reduced Vac applied across the choke.

((( Iron is queer material. Its permeability, µ, changes depending on
the applied Vac amplitude across the coil,
the frequency of the Vac, and the dc flow and the gap used.
Fully predicting an outcome with iron is virtually impossible,
and a frustration for engineers who like to work everything
out rather than rely on experimental methods to get a wanted outcome.
If you get poor results with chokes, you ain't working hard enough with
brain AND hands! )))



The 20mH chokes for the choke input supplies for the dc 845 cathodes
were tested with a 13.3Vac ac winding of a test tranny and a 35A diode
bridge,
and feeding a 22,000 uF cap.
Ripple voltage at the cap is less than 40mV, sufficiently low to stop
ac cathode current producing an anode hum signal.

The 20mH choke input supply is fairly well regulated, with 9.4Vdc at
3.3Adc, and 10.5Adc at 1Adc.
The choke input therefore will work with Chinese 845 with 3.3A needed
or with KR Audio 845 which I am fitting and which require only 1A for
cathode.

There is no need for a bleeder resistance.

The alternative to a choke input is a CLC input, but high peak charge
currents are needed,
and filtering isn't much better.

Using regulated supply means the C1 Vdc has to be dropped from about
15Vdc to 10Vdc at
and at 3.3Adc, some 32 watts of heat dissipation is required for the two
845.

The 20mH chokes tend to vibrate and hum when not clamped up tightly.
There is 6.0Vrms at 100Hz across the winding.
The varnishing will reduce the hum and vibration and they will
be clamped in rubber into the chassis away from iron surfaces, and with
aluminium yokes.
Using ac flow aranged in opposite directions should cancel most hum
generated.
There is little room to place the chokes in pots, which would have been
better,
but it takes up more precious space. I made an experimental steel sheet
pot
even with chamfered corners all around to better hug the shape of the
raw choke,
but still found no adequate space for them.

The conclusion I make from the above work is that for any amp maker
building any amp between 20 watts and 300 watts, all chokes needed can
be formed
from using 25 tongue material and mostly with a 25mm stack.
Increasing the stack height increases L linearly where the turns and gap
are the same.

Although there is a bunch of useful ideas and formula at my website,
always
ONLY RELY on actual test bench adjustments for gapping using a proper
test circuit
or with chokes connected in an amp under test.

To start a choke design, choose the wire size first according to the
wanted dc current allowing no more than 3A per sq.mm of copper area.

Consider the result of a short circuit in each case in the design.
Slow blo fuses must be used to protect chokes, and the fuse value
carefully
worked out so that they blow at twice the current rating for the wire.

For example, the above 60H choke has 0.2mm dia wire good for 94mA at
3A/sq.mm.
But I have 3 x EL84 in parallel, and if they go to a short,
there is a +750V supply plus 10k R in series with the choke and Idc
becomes 75mA.
The wire and choke will warm, but will survive.
I plan to run only 40mA throgh the choke.
I'll have a fuse as well, just incase the choke shorts to its
laminations and amp case.

Its unlikely because of the plasic bobbin and wrapping of winding in
carboard and mylar layers, all soaked well in varnish.

Weight of the final mono amp is simply bloody heavy.

This is good, and should prevent thieves hurrying away to quickly.

Patrick Turner.

[West]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Raymond Koonce wrote:

Hi RATs,

I had the good fortune to attend the European Triode Festival in
Biezenmortel Netherlands a few days ago. It was a cool fest with about
80 participants. I made a web page of photos I shot there. Take a look
at http://www.timebanditaudio.com/etf2007/etf2007.html

Raymond

Some nice work done by diyers there but a lot is very poorly made
breadboard stuff. But they gotta start somewhere.

Lots of 845s in there.

I am proceeding seriously with constructing a
pair of monoblock 845 amps with two in parallel per channel.

So far I have power and OPTs both with 72mm stacks of 51mm tongue GOSS
lams,
and 5 chokes per channel, two 4H B+ chokes, one 60H choke for
dc supply to 3 paralleled EL84 SET drivers, and two 20mH chokes for the
pair of choke input
supply for 10Vdc x 3.3Adc heaters to 845.

I have so far 14 x 470uF x 400v rated caps.

I thought the chassis was big enough when I began but I wish it was 25
mm in each dimension....

Choke details as follows,

4H+ at 200mA,
32S x 25T, GOSS E&I.
1,400t x 0.4mm dia Cu, 30 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.18mm right across the core.( actual gap = 0.36mm )

4H+ at 200mA, but only 160mA used,
25S x 25T, GOSS E&I.
1.750t x 0.35mm Cu dia, 42 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.27mm right across core, ( actual gap = 0.54mm )

60H at 40mA,
32S x 25T GOSS E&I.
5,200t x 0.2mm Cu dia, 440 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.27mm right across core, ( actual gap = 0.54mm )

21mH at 3.3A,
25S x 25T older quality re-cycled transformer iron,
156t x 1.32mm dia Cu, 0.24 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.54mm right across core, ( actual gap = 1.08mm ).

All gaps determined experimentally for highest inductance at
dc current nominated in test circuits equivalent to
actual amp operation conditions.

For example, to test the 4H and 60H chokes,
a test circuit was made as follows :-
+250Vdc supply with adjustable 50W resistance feed to the choke to set
the dc current,
then 100 ohms between choke and 0V so that choke Iac and Idc can both be
measured.
AC applied to top of choke from variac at 50Hz with an isolation electro
cap of 2,500uF.
A CRO was used to monitor choke current and distortion.

Inductance and gapping tests done at 10.0Vrms of 50Hz applied to choke,
with and without dc applied.
Phenomena observed. Without a gap and with no dc, inductance was high,
with iron µ = approx 650.
When dc was applied, inductance fell to 1/5 as the iron µ is affected by
dc magnetization.
As layers of notebook paper each 0.09mm thick were placed into the gap
right across the core,
the inductance with no dc reduced but tended not to fall when dc was
applied.
With dc applied, paper gapping was added and sheets recorded until peak
in inductance
was achieved. The final gap was that given by whatever number of paper
layers needed to give
a gap just above that for maximum L.
Choke bolts were tightened, E&I lams tapped up tight with dc applied,
and all with meters connected.
Chokes were soaked in varninsh, drained of excess and baked and
re-tested.
Using iron yokes to clamp chokes together made no difference to L.

The performance of the chokes with a much higher ac voltage applied
up to 150Vrms in the case of the 60H choke showed a change of inductance
of less than 2%.
The 4H chokes will have only about 2Vrms across them and at such a low
Vac,
their inductance will actually be slightly under 4H because of the
effect
of reducing iron µ with a reduced Vac applied across the choke.

((( Iron is queer material. Its permeability, µ, changes depending on
the applied Vac amplitude across the coil,
the frequency of the Vac, and the dc flow and the gap used.
Fully predicting an outcome with iron is virtually impossible,
and a frustration for engineers who like to work everything
out rather than rely on experimental methods to get a wanted outcome.
If you get poor results with chokes, you ain't working hard enough with
brain AND hands! )))



The 20mH chokes for the choke input supplies for the dc 845 cathodes
were tested with a 13.3Vac ac winding of a test tranny and a 35A diode
bridge,
and feeding a 22,000 uF cap.
Ripple voltage at the cap is less than 40mV, sufficiently low to stop
ac cathode current producing an anode hum signal.

The 20mH choke input supply is fairly well regulated, with 9.4Vdc at
3.3Adc, and 10.5Adc at 1Adc.
The choke input therefore will work with Chinese 845 with 3.3A needed
or with KR Audio 845 which I am fitting and which require only 1A for
cathode.

There is no need for a bleeder resistance.

The alternative to a choke input is a CLC input, but high peak charge
currents are needed,
and filtering isn't much better.

Using regulated supply means the C1 Vdc has to be dropped from about
15Vdc to 10Vdc at
and at 3.3Adc, some 32 watts of heat dissipation is required for the two
845.

The 20mH chokes tend to vibrate and hum when not clamped up tightly.
There is 6.0Vrms at 100Hz across the winding.
The varnishing will reduce the hum and vibration and they will
be clamped in rubber into the chassis away from iron surfaces, and with
aluminium yokes.
Using ac flow aranged in opposite directions should cancel most hum
generated.
There is little room to place the chokes in pots, which would have been
better,
but it takes up more precious space. I made an experimental steel sheet
pot
even with chamfered corners all around to better hug the shape of the
raw choke,
but still found no adequate space for them.

The conclusion I make from the above work is that for any amp maker
building any amp between 20 watts and 300 watts, all chokes needed can
be formed
from using 25 tongue material and mostly with a 25mm stack.
Increasing the stack height increases L linearly where the turns and gap
are the same.

Although there is a bunch of useful ideas and formula at my website,
always
ONLY RELY on actual test bench adjustments for gapping using a proper
test circuit
or with chokes connected in an amp under test.

To start a choke design, choose the wire size first according to the
wanted dc current allowing no more than 3A per sq.mm of copper area.

Consider the result of a short circuit in each case in the design.
Slow blo fuses must be used to protect chokes, and the fuse value
carefully
worked out so that they blow at twice the current rating for the wire.

For example, the above 60H choke has 0.2mm dia wire good for 94mA at
3A/sq.mm.
But I have 3 x EL84 in parallel, and if they go to a short,
there is a +750V supply plus 10k R in series with the choke and Idc
becomes 75mA.
The wire and choke will warm, but will survive.
I plan to run only 40mA throgh the choke.
I'll have a fuse as well, just incase the choke shorts to its
laminations and amp case.

Its unlikely because of the plasic bobbin and wrapping of winding in
carboard and mylar layers, all soaked well in varnish.

Weight of the final mono amp is simply bloody heavy.

This is good, and should prevent thieves hurrying away to quickly.

Professor, would you mind sharing your progress. Not too many PPP 845S
discussed here. Sounds very exciting. Maybe this is what we could also use
for a healing.

west
Patrick Turner.

[tubegarden]

Hi RATs!

My latest is a touched up "Conar 300" - one 12AX7 and EL84 per
channel. I got it working with a few new caps.

When I switched the 6BQ5 (EL84) to triode, screen and plate tied, I
also replaced the std OPT with ubt-1.

Then there was hum, so, I added an external DC regulated filament
supply. The stock OPTs were small and probably couldn't pass the
60/120 Hz hum ...

The was still some hum happening, so I added an L-C-L-C filter to the
PS.

Then I shorted out the rectifier SS diode, so, I switched to an
external B+ supple, using 5AR4 rectifier.

Once I got a loose solder connection fixed, it played beautifully
until something shorted and blew the fuse. I switched back to the P-P
EL34 and will try again manana.

It sounded wonderful, for several minutes.

First circuit cludge in many, many moons

There is some magic left in this world ...

Happy Ears!

Al

[Bob Woodward]

Patrick Turner wrote:

Raymond Koonce wrote:
Hi RATs,

I had the good fortune to attend the European Triode Festival in
Biezenmortel Netherlands a few days ago. It was a cool fest with about
80 participants. I made a web page of photos I shot there. Take a look
at http://www.timebanditaudio.com/etf2007/etf2007.html

Raymond

Some nice work done by diyers there but a lot is very poorly made
breadboard stuff. But they gotta start somewhere.

I think the diyers over there share a lot of knowledge and tube-audio
has started long ago in Europe.

The breadboard stuff shows people are working and improving constantly
not building products to sell but to enjoy experimenting.

I love to see breadboard stuff.

Robert

[Patrick Turner]

West wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Raymond Koonce wrote:

Hi RATs,

I had the good fortune to attend the European Triode Festival in
Biezenmortel Netherlands a few days ago. It was a cool fest with about
80 participants. I made a web page of photos I shot there. Take a look
at http://www.timebanditaudio.com/etf2007/etf2007.html

Raymond

Some nice work done by diyers there but a lot is very poorly made
breadboard stuff. But they gotta start somewhere.

Lots of 845s in there.

I am proceeding seriously with constructing a
pair of monoblock 845 amps with two in parallel per channel.

So far I have power and OPTs both with 72mm stacks of 51mm tongue GOSS
lams,
and 5 chokes per channel, two 4H B+ chokes, one 60H choke for
dc supply to 3 paralleled EL84 SET drivers, and two 20mH chokes for the
pair of choke input
supply for 10Vdc x 3.3Adc heaters to 845.

I have so far 14 x 470uF x 400v rated caps.

I thought the chassis was big enough when I began but I wish it was 25
mm in each dimension....

Choke details as follows,

4H+ at 200mA,
32S x 25T, GOSS E&I.
1,400t x 0.4mm dia Cu, 30 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.18mm right across the core.( actual gap = 0.36mm )

4H+ at 200mA, but only 160mA used,
25S x 25T, GOSS E&I.
1.750t x 0.35mm Cu dia, 42 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.27mm right across core, ( actual gap = 0.54mm )

60H at 40mA,
32S x 25T GOSS E&I.
5,200t x 0.2mm Cu dia, 440 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.27mm right across core, ( actual gap = 0.54mm )

21mH at 3.3A,
25S x 25T older quality re-cycled transformer iron,
156t x 1.32mm dia Cu, 0.24 ohms dcr.
gap = 0.54mm right across core, ( actual gap = 1.08mm ).

All gaps determined experimentally for highest inductance at
dc current nominated in test circuits equivalent to
actual amp operation conditions.

For example, to test the 4H and 60H chokes,
a test circuit was made as follows :-
+250Vdc supply with adjustable 50W resistance feed to the choke to set
the dc current,
then 100 ohms between choke and 0V so that choke Iac and Idc can both be
measured.
AC applied to top of choke from variac at 50Hz with an isolation electro
cap of 2,500uF.
A CRO was used to monitor choke current and distortion.

Inductance and gapping tests done at 10.0Vrms of 50Hz applied to choke,
with and without dc applied.
Phenomena observed. Without a gap and with no dc, inductance was high,
with iron µ = approx 650.
When dc was applied, inductance fell to 1/5 as the iron µ is affected by
dc magnetization.
As layers of notebook paper each 0.09mm thick were placed into the gap
right across the core,
the inductance with no dc reduced but tended not to fall when dc was
applied.
With dc applied, paper gapping was added and sheets recorded until peak
in inductance
was achieved. The final gap was that given by whatever number of paper
layers needed to give
a gap just above that for maximum L.
Choke bolts were tightened, E&I lams tapped up tight with dc applied,
and all with meters connected.
Chokes were soaked in varninsh, drained of excess and baked and
re-tested.
Using iron yokes to clamp chokes together made no difference to L.

The performance of the chokes with a much higher ac voltage applied
up to 150Vrms in the case of the 60H choke showed a change of inductance
of less than 2%.
The 4H chokes will have only about 2Vrms across them and at such a low
Vac,
their inductance will actually be slightly under 4H because of the
effect
of reducing iron µ with a reduced Vac applied across the choke.

((( Iron is queer material. Its permeability, µ, changes depending on
the applied Vac amplitude across the coil,
the frequency of the Vac, and the dc flow and the gap used.
Fully predicting an outcome with iron is virtually impossible,
and a frustration for engineers who like to work everything
out rather than rely on experimental methods to get a wanted outcome.
If you get poor results with chokes, you ain't working hard enough with
brain AND hands! )))



The 20mH chokes for the choke input supplies for the dc 845 cathodes
were tested with a 13.3Vac ac winding of a test tranny and a 35A diode
bridge,
and feeding a 22,000 uF cap.
Ripple voltage at the cap is less than 40mV, sufficiently low to stop
ac cathode current producing an anode hum signal.

The 20mH choke input supply is fairly well regulated, with 9.4Vdc at
3.3Adc, and 10.5Adc at 1Adc.
The choke input therefore will work with Chinese 845 with 3.3A needed
or with KR Audio 845 which I am fitting and which require only 1A for
cathode.

There is no need for a bleeder resistance.

The alternative to a choke input is a CLC input, but high peak charge
currents are needed,
and filtering isn't much better.

Using regulated supply means the C1 Vdc has to be dropped from about
15Vdc to 10Vdc at
and at 3.3Adc, some 32 watts of heat dissipation is required for the two
845.

The 20mH chokes tend to vibrate and hum when not clamped up tightly.
There is 6.0Vrms at 100Hz across the winding.
The varnishing will reduce the hum and vibration and they will
be clamped in rubber into the chassis away from iron surfaces, and with
aluminium yokes.
Using ac flow aranged in opposite directions should cancel most hum
generated.
There is little room to place the chokes in pots, which would have been
better,
but it takes up more precious space. I made an experimental steel sheet
pot
even with chamfered corners all around to better hug the shape of the
raw choke,
but still found no adequate space for them.

The conclusion I make from the above work is that for any amp maker
building any amp between 20 watts and 300 watts, all chokes needed can
be formed
from using 25 tongue material and mostly with a 25mm stack.
Increasing the stack height increases L linearly where the turns and gap
are the same.

Although there is a bunch of useful ideas and formula at my website,
always
ONLY RELY on actual test bench adjustments for gapping using a proper
test circuit
or with chokes connected in an amp under test.

To start a choke design, choose the wire size first according to the
wanted dc current allowing no more than 3A per sq.mm of copper area.

Consider the result of a short circuit in each case in the design.
Slow blo fuses must be used to protect chokes, and the fuse value
carefully
worked out so that they blow at twice the current rating for the wire.

For example, the above 60H choke has 0.2mm dia wire good for 94mA at
3A/sq.mm.
But I have 3 x EL84 in parallel, and if they go to a short,
there is a +750V supply plus 10k R in series with the choke and Idc
becomes 75mA.
The wire and choke will warm, but will survive.
I plan to run only 40mA throgh the choke.
I'll have a fuse as well, just incase the choke shorts to its
laminations and amp case.

Its unlikely because of the plasic bobbin and wrapping of winding in
carboard and mylar layers, all soaked well in varnish.

Weight of the final mono amp is simply bloody heavy.

This is good, and should prevent thieves hurrying away to quickly.

Professor, would you mind sharing your progress. Not too many PPP 845S
discussed here. Sounds very exciting. Maybe this is what we could also use
for a healing.

The 845 are not in PPP, which is Parallel Push Pull, which requires at
least 4 output tubes
as in the latest Quad 80.

I have my tubes in Parallel Single Ended, PSE.

The pain of building these amps does not teach us to grow, nor do I
think it
forms a healing experience. Like the steep slopes of the mountains I
ride up
on a bicycle, it merely teaches us that pain is ****ing painful
and nature is greater than ourselves, and the older one gets the better
one was,
so pedal like hell to get to the top to see the view; one might die on
the way and miss out.

The wonderment of a prolonged period of dying spread across maybe 85
years if lucky
is about equal to the wonderment of living the same length of time
simultaneously.

The most positive view is that glass is thus half empty while half full.

Pessimists amoung us would say no, at 60 a man is 3/4 done, with the
glass only 1/4 full,
and what's left in the glass is sour old wine to be sure.

But I don't suffer depression and the pessimism it brings...

We should be at ease with the onset of an absense of living or dying,
which is death.

And last month's Federal Election taught me again that when a man thinks
he
has reached his 3rd age of wisdom, the people around him can't wait to
not only
change and vote for the horrid foul opposition party, but vote you right
out of Parliment.

So the truly wise man understands that at least 1/2 the people around
think he's ****.

Patrick Turner.






west
Patrick Turner.

[Patrick Turner]

tubegarden wrote:

Hi RATs!

My latest is a touched up "Conar 300" - one 12AX7 and EL84 per
channel. I got it working with a few new caps.

When I switched the 6BQ5 (EL84) to triode, screen and plate tied, I
also replaced the std OPT with ubt-1.

Then there was hum, so, I added an external DC regulated filament
supply. The stock OPTs were small and probably couldn't pass the
60/120 Hz hum ...

The was still some hum happening, so I added an L-C-L-C filter to the
PS.

Then I shorted out the rectifier SS diode, so, I switched to an
external B+ supple, using 5AR4 rectifier.

Once I got a loose solder connection fixed, it played beautifully
until something shorted and blew the fuse. I switched back to the P-P
EL34 and will try again manana.

It sounded wonderful, for several minutes.

First circuit cludge in many, many moons

There is some magic left in this world ...

Happy Ears!

The slow passage of time eventually prevents us from observing all we
should observe
when we should observe it.

Providing we do not kill ourselves as a result, we can hope to fix it
and
enjoy the wondererment.

Patrick Turner

Al

[Patrick Turner]

Bob Woodward wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Raymond Koonce wrote:
Hi RATs,

I had the good fortune to attend the European Triode Festival in
Biezenmortel Netherlands a few days ago. It was a cool fest with about
80 participants. I made a web page of photos I shot there. Take a look
at http://www.timebanditaudio.com/etf2007/etf2007.html

Raymond

Some nice work done by diyers there but a lot is very poorly made
breadboard stuff. But they gotta start somewhere.

I think the diyers over there share a lot of knowledge and tube-audio
has started long ago in Europe.

The breadboard stuff shows people are working and improving constantly
not building products to sell but to enjoy experimenting.

I love to see breadboard stuff.

Robert

I used to do breadboarded stuff but i have to make a living
by selling what I make.
So what I make has to be optimised, with experiments all resolved, and
the circuit
made permanent in all metal casings but still with flexibility for
changes later.
So these days I work out what i think will work on paper,
and allow for trimming, and then choose a steel chassis big enough after
lot's of thought,
and I just build it so its like a factory made job.

The 845 amps I am making now can use 211,
and all that's needed is a link across a 1k cathode R on each output
tube.

This has to be carefully set up so a non technical owner is unlikely to
get it wrong.

Breadboard amps are far too dangerous to sell to anyone.

But for the home diyer they offer ultimate flexibility without
metalworking.

But real diyers won't mind working with a flat plate of at least
aluminium,
and when turned upside down with tubes poking down the citcuit can more
easily be worked on
than with tubes and R&C and rat's nest of wires all on one side.
The real diyer won't mind spending to buy a hole cutter punch ( Q-max )
for tube sockets.
If he wants to make the circuit permanent he mounts the plate on a
rectangle
formed by aluminium channel neatly mitred at corners and filed round and
screwed together
with a bottom cover.
This is also a good method for the real tradesman, as seen at
http://www.turneraudio.com.au/4+4-set-stereo-2a3.html


Just don't try to build a DA converter using only vacuum tubes on a
breadboard.

Or a cd player transport mech, or a TV set, you might become
confused......

Patrick Turner.

[Andre Jute]

On Dec 13, 3:35 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Raymond Koonce wrote:

Hi RATs,

I had the good fortune to attend the European Triode Festival in
Biezenmortel Netherlands a few days ago. It was a cool fest with about
80 participants. I made a web page of photos I shot there. Take a look
athttp://www.timebanditaudio.com/etf2007/etf2007.html

Raymond

Some nice work done by diyers there but a lot is very poorly made
breadboard stuff. But they gotta start somewhere.

Jesus, Patrick. Some of those guys have forgotten more than about tube
amps than you know. Their interest is just different: they want to
make something fascinating, then move on to another fascinating
project, whereas you want to make something to sell.

Lots of 845s in there.

Many of those guys were regulars on the Sound List aka Joenet, where
the 845 was revered even above the 300B. And for good reason, I might
add. If I can have only one amp in heaven, it would have to be an 845.

I thought some of those breadboard construction ideas rather jolly.

I too build mostly breadboards; sometimes other people put them in
fancy cases. But I certainly proceed from the assumption that I want
to spend the minimum time on woodwork, and less time if possible on
metalwork. To facilitate that aim I work with the thinnest sheet of
ali that will hold a nut and bolt in, which turns out very
conveniently to be the covers for the Hammond ali 10x17x4 inch cases
that retail for for 12 dollars per cover. I buy the covers in bulk and
every year add just a few of the cases. The ali covers are 2mm (or
maybe 1.2mm, who cares) thick and very easy to mark out with a scribe
and punch and drill with titanium tools; amateurs should forget about
working steel unless they are masochists who like having their
knuckles busted. I back the ali cover sheet with 3/4in or 9mm ply cut
to size (I buy the backing ply sheets cut to the right size in bulk
too, pre-varnished to save yet more time), which also serves as a
drilling stop. After I have drilled all the holes in the ali plate, I
enlarge the holes in the wood to contain bolt heads. When the assembly
is finished, the ply is bolted to the ali plate to stiffen it so that
the weight of the transformers don't fold up the amp... This flatbase
assembly is then covered by the "case", standing on 6 or 10mm
standoffs for ventilation. The cases are recycled, the flat plates
just thrown away after the breadboard is finished with; there's very
little waste. Above all, it is a quick way of getting a working
prototype and very safe too because there is a cover of the correct
size instantly to hand. At
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...0T68MZ417A.jpg
you can see such a breadboard that I liked so much that I have kept it
for several years now.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

[Patrick Turner]

Andre Jute wrote:

On Dec 13, 3:35 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Raymond Koonce wrote:

Hi RATs,

I had the good fortune to attend the European Triode Festival in
Biezenmortel Netherlands a few days ago. It was a cool fest with about
80 participants. I made a web page of photos I shot there. Take a look
athttp://www.timebanditaudio.com/etf2007/etf2007.html

Raymond

Some nice work done by diyers there but a lot is very poorly made
breadboard stuff. But they gotta start somewhere.

Jesus, Patrick. Some of those guys have forgotten more than about tube
amps than you know. Their interest is just different: they want to
make something fascinating, then move on to another fascinating
project, whereas you want to make something to sell.

Jesus was a good man to be sure but the fact is that what I do is move
from one fascinating
project to the next. My wonderment is the same as the diyer brigade who
are not selling.

I try to share whatever expertise people may find in my procedures.

Most of our amp making attempts are comaparable with anyone else's,
and I have never shied away from comparing notes on how I might do
things.

So while I might seem to some as abrazive, I do have lots to offer
people...



Lots of 845s in there.

Many of those guys were regulars on the Sound List aka Joenet, where
the 845 was revered even above the 300B. And for good reason, I might
add. If I can have only one amp in heaven, it would have to be an 845.

If anyone should find out if the 845 is the king of the heap
then I will in the next few weeks!



I thought some of those breadboard construction ideas rather jolly.

I totally agree. Temporary though.

A long time ago in 1957, a guy who built a 400W PA amp using 10 x KT88
had his efforts pictured and fully described in Wireless World.
Guess what? the whole caboodle of parts was firmly screwed down to a
piece
of 25mm x 600mm plywood. All it needed was a U shaped peice of
industrial grade general purpose perforated sheet steel for a cove with
end stops and it
would have been quite safe to use.

But Somehow I think my customers wouldn't really like such very rugged
crudity.
So I go the extra $1,000 worth of expense to provide a fully metal
chassis
and powdercoated finish.



I too build mostly breadboards; sometimes other people put them in
fancy cases. But I certainly proceed from the assumption that I want
to spend the minimum time on woodwork, and less time if possible on
metalwork. To facilitate that aim I work with the thinnest sheet of
ali that will hold a nut and bolt in, which turns out very
conveniently to be the covers for the Hammond ali 10x17x4 inch cases
that retail for for 12 dollars per cover. I buy the covers in bulk and
every year add just a few of the cases. The ali covers are 2mm (or
maybe 1.2mm, who cares) thick and very easy to mark out with a scribe
and punch and drill with titanium tools; amateurs should forget about
working steel unless they are masochists who like having their
knuckles busted.

I recommended using sheet Al wherver possible in a later post.

For me steel is the only option.

The 845 amps am completeting are extremly heavy for a 50 watt amp.

If the chassis was Al, it'd have to be after the style of VAC amps, one
of which I have
here needing a considerable fix because of terrible circuit design.
But its chassis is 6mm Al plates, screwed together with 3mm allen screws
at 100mm centres
so that the screws are into the 6mm edge end on.
The 70+70 watt amp with 8 x 300B total is THE HEAVIEST box for 140 watts
that I have ever had the
displeasure of having to move around my workshop.
But together, my two 845 50w will have more total weight.

So steel becomes lighter than Al because its stronger.

Some amps with AL chassis would crumple into a mess if just dropped the
once.

So the more iron one puts on the chassis the more rigged the chassis has
to be and
so one simply has to spend a little longer working with drills, punches,
jig saws and be-burring tools.

I also cannot get a nice Al chassis made anywhere cheaply now because
all the
metalworkers in town seem to have evaporated or are s busy the lead time
is 4 months
like it is with me when someone orders anything from me.
When i do use Al, The top plate might be but the side are from 3mm wall
thick channels available in a range of
sizes. This is usually as good as steel for a 2 x 25 watt PP amp, or a
couple of SE channels such as at
http://www.turneraudio.com.au/4+4-set-stereo-2a3.html

Steel channel plus AL toplates are used my 300 watters which have
separate chassis for each audio channel and power supplies for each;
so 4 chassis at 25kg each.

An amp would still make a mess of itself falling off a bench though....



I back the ali cover sheet with 3/4in or 9mm ply cut
to size (I buy the backing ply sheets cut to the right size in bulk
too, pre-varnished to save yet more time), which also serves as a
drilling stop. After I have drilled all the holes in the ali plate, I
enlarge the holes in the wood to contain bolt heads. When the assembly
is finished, the ply is bolted to the ali plate to stiffen it so that
the weight of the transformers don't fold up the amp... This flatbase
assembly is then covered by the "case", standing on 6 or 10mm
standoffs for ventilation. The cases are recycled, the flat plates
just thrown away after the breadboard is finished with; there's very
little waste. Above all, it is a quick way of getting a working
prototype and very safe too because there is a cover of the correct
size instantly to hand. At
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...0T68MZ417A.jpg
you can see such a breadboard that I liked so much that I have kept it
for several years now.

Not bad. Its your own though, and maybe you'd have trouble trying to
sell it to get a return on the costs...

I made a JBS amp in about 3 weeks seen also at
http://www.turneraudio.com.au/2323-t...ated-6cm5.html
Its shown with cover off at the bottom of the page.
It'd also bend a bit if dropped off a bench.

The ideal amp should withstand a fall of 3 feet,
and some might say it matters not if the amp proceeds through the floor,
and astonishes people having dinner immediately below,
providing do damage occurs to the amp.

The cat under the dinner table would be somewhat alarmed......

Patrick Turner.



Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

[Andre Jute]

On Dec 15, 11:45 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Patrick wrote:
I also cannot get a nice Al chassis made anywhere cheaply now because
all the
metalworkers in town seem to have evaporated or are s busy the lead time
is 4 months
like it is with me when someone orders anything from me.
When i do use Al, The top plate might be but the side are from 3mm wall
thick channels available in a range of
sizes. This is usually as good as steel for a 2 x 25 watt PP amp, or a
couple of SE channels such as athttp://www.turneraudio.com.au/4+4-set-stereo-2a3.html

For anything that tidy with tubes on top I'd have to charge a lot of
money, when then requires putting a nice piece of wood on the facia,
which again bumps up the price. I tend these days to put everything,
including tubes, under a cover, to avoid falling foul of consumer
protection legislation and even the insurance companies.

Steel channel plus AL toplates are used my 300 watters which have
separate chassis for each audio channel and power supplies for each;
so 4 chassis at 25kg each.

Yeah, my T199 Millennium's end 80W PSE Class A1 from SV572-3 weighed
125 pounds per channel. They were built that way to avoid HT
powercords and even 150V+ signal at pretty elevated current running
all over the place. Since they were used mostly in their SE 25W mode,
I eventually broke them up as simply too heavy.

An amp would still make a mess of itself falling off a bench though....

Even a "small" tube amp might make a mess of the bones in your foot.

I back the ali cover sheet with 3/4in or 9mm ply cut
to size (I buy the backing ply sheets cut to the right size in bulk
too, pre-varnished to save yet more time), which also serves as a
drilling stop. After I have drilled all the holes in the ali plate, I
enlarge the holes in the wood to contain bolt heads. When the assembly
is finished, the ply is bolted to the ali plate to stiffen it so that
the weight of the transformers don't fold up the amp... This flatbase
assembly is then covered by the "case", standing on 6 or 10mm
standoffs for ventilation. The cases are recycled, the flat plates
just thrown away after the breadboard is finished with; there's very
little waste. Above all, it is a quick way of getting a working
prototype and very safe too because there is a cover of the correct
size instantly to hand. At
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...0T68MZ417A.jpg
you can see such a breadboard that I liked so much that I have kept it
for several years now.

Not bad. Its your own though, and maybe you'd have trouble trying to
sell it to get a return on the costs...

That's actually a transformer coupled 300B base plate you're looking
at, the potato WE417A amp being made by removing the 300B and the IST
and rewiring the Lundahl power trx. When I sell T39 (which is a very
silent 3.8W RC coupled 417A/300B SE intended for horns or very high
efficiency speakers, see http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/T...trafi-crct.jpg
), I get that T68bis pattern professionally laser cut in 3mm tellurium
copper sheet. That was covered in the past (craftsman now retired) by
a solid-wood or veneered wooden box with a couple of inset copper
pieces to the front and back, or a polished stainless box simply
because, like you, I cannot get nice ali or steel boxes made to size.
I can't even get anything else except very thin stuff nicely bent any
more without going to a guy eighty miles away; the best I can do is
get a garden furniture maker eighty miles away the other side to weld
up some iron angle, pretty rough stuff...

I sold two of the T68bis but I had the copper plates cut to take 300B
as well, just in case the owners get fed up with the very low output
from the single 417A and decide to return them for upgrading.
Essentially, a potato amp should be a gimmick for poor audiophiles,
whereas my T68 is a novelty for plutocrats, probably the most
expensive amp per watt available anywhere... And it doesn't do too
badly on the Dunker Factor either, which measures goodness as mo'
pounds of weight per watt on the assumption that mo' iron is betta
iron.

I gave Mick a pair of WE417A for a potato amp but the last time he was
on RAT he said he thought they were too good for that; he was planning
to use them as high-current drivers in another amp.

I made a JBS amp

The T68 isn't a junkbox amp. It is made with all new parts, and only
the best: Lundahl iron, Solen caps, Cardas wire and connectors. I
don't build junkbox amps; it isn't worth my time and effort.

Yo, Patrick, I find it heartening that you're having as much trouble
as I am getting a decent case made. For a while I though it was just
me being overly finicky... A couple of years ago I took apart a steel
case, resoldered it straight, filled and smoothed it off, and took it
back to the maker as a sample of acceptable quality; he looked me
straight in the eye and said, "It's a waste of time poncing around
with metrics. To the nearest inch is good enough."

For a while I could get cases from my Japanese mate, which he had made
in China to his exacting specifications. They were pretty good, but
only because the guy is in China with his valve tester and his
micrometer every other week, personally supervising, and he doesn't
mind paying for wastage as long as the final job is done perfectly.
But even the best Chinese casework, made under the supervision of an
obsessive, is still not crafted with the punctilio of the cases he
previously had made in Japan by a shop that makes bike parts and grew
too expensive for him, with lead times of fifteen months the last time
I heard (Boeing can deliver a big jet in less time than that!).

Just for the record: Proper casework has no self-tapping metal screws
(1) but instead formed and threaded pressouts for proper bolts, and no
exposed edges, and no rough corners, and all cutouts are smoothed off
to both sides. That is an absolute minimum.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

(1) I was horrified by your report in another thread about an American
amp maker with pretty stiff prices whose casework depends on
selftappers edgewise into 6mm ali.

[David R Brooks]

Andre Jute wrote:
On Dec 15, 11:45 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Patrick wrote:
I also cannot get a nice Al chassis made anywhere cheaply now because
all the
metalworkers in town seem to have evaporated or are s busy the lead time
is 4 months
like it is with me when someone orders anything from me.
When i do use Al, The top plate might be but the side are from 3mm wall
thick channels available in a range of
sizes. This is usually as good as steel for a 2 x 25 watt PP amp, or a
couple of SE channels such as athttp://www.turneraudio.com.au/4+4-set-stereo-2a3.html

For anything that tidy with tubes on top I'd have to charge a lot of
money, when then requires putting a nice piece of wood on the facia,
which again bumps up the price. I tend these days to put everything,
including tubes, under a cover, to avoid falling foul of consumer
protection legislation and even the insurance companies.

Steel channel plus AL toplates are used my 300 watters which have
separate chassis for each audio channel and power supplies for each;
so 4 chassis at 25kg each.

Yeah, my T199 Millennium's end 80W PSE Class A1 from SV572-3 weighed
125 pounds per channel. They were built that way to avoid HT
powercords and even 150V+ signal at pretty elevated current running
all over the place. Since they were used mostly in their SE 25W mode,
I eventually broke them up as simply too heavy.

An amp would still make a mess of itself falling off a bench though....

Even a "small" tube amp might make a mess of the bones in your foot.

I back the ali cover sheet with 3/4in or 9mm ply cut
to size (I buy the backing ply sheets cut to the right size in bulk
too, pre-varnished to save yet more time), which also serves as a
drilling stop. After I have drilled all the holes in the ali plate, I
enlarge the holes in the wood to contain bolt heads. When the assembly
is finished, the ply is bolted to the ali plate to stiffen it so that
the weight of the transformers don't fold up the amp... This flatbase
assembly is then covered by the "case", standing on 6 or 10mm
standoffs for ventilation. The cases are recycled, the flat plates
just thrown away after the breadboard is finished with; there's very
little waste. Above all, it is a quick way of getting a working
prototype and very safe too because there is a cover of the correct
size instantly to hand. At
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...0T68MZ417A.jpg
you can see such a breadboard that I liked so much that I have kept it
for several years now.
Not bad. Its your own though, and maybe you'd have trouble trying to
sell it to get a return on the costs...

That's actually a transformer coupled 300B base plate you're looking
at, the potato WE417A amp being made by removing the 300B and the IST
and rewiring the Lundahl power trx. When I sell T39 (which is a very
silent 3.8W RC coupled 417A/300B SE intended for horns or very high
efficiency speakers, see http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/T...trafi-crct.jpg
), I get that T68bis pattern professionally laser cut in 3mm tellurium
copper sheet. That was covered in the past (craftsman now retired) by
a solid-wood or veneered wooden box with a couple of inset copper
pieces to the front and back, or a polished stainless box simply
because, like you, I cannot get nice ali or steel boxes made to size.
I can't even get anything else except very thin stuff nicely bent any
more without going to a guy eighty miles away; the best I can do is
get a garden furniture maker eighty miles away the other side to weld
up some iron angle, pretty rough stuff...

I sold two of the T68bis but I had the copper plates cut to take 300B
as well, just in case the owners get fed up with the very low output
from the single 417A and decide to return them for upgrading.
Essentially, a potato amp should be a gimmick for poor audiophiles,
whereas my T68 is a novelty for plutocrats, probably the most
expensive amp per watt available anywhere... And it doesn't do too
badly on the Dunker Factor either, which measures goodness as mo'
pounds of weight per watt on the assumption that mo' iron is betta
iron.

I gave Mick a pair of WE417A for a potato amp but the last time he was
on RAT he said he thought they were too good for that; he was planning
to use them as high-current drivers in another amp.

I made a JBS amp

The T68 isn't a junkbox amp. It is made with all new parts, and only
the best: Lundahl iron, Solen caps, Cardas wire and connectors. I
don't build junkbox amps; it isn't worth my time and effort.

Yo, Patrick, I find it heartening that you're having as much trouble
as I am getting a decent case made. For a while I though it was just
me being overly finicky... A couple of years ago I took apart a steel
case, resoldered it straight, filled and smoothed it off, and took it
back to the maker as a sample of acceptable quality; he looked me
straight in the eye and said, "It's a waste of time poncing around
with metrics. To the nearest inch is good enough."

For a while I could get cases from my Japanese mate, which he had made
in China to his exacting specifications. They were pretty good, but
only because the guy is in China with his valve tester and his
micrometer every other week, personally supervising, and he doesn't
mind paying for wastage as long as the final job is done perfectly.
But even the best Chinese casework, made under the supervision of an
obsessive, is still not crafted with the punctilio of the cases he
previously had made in Japan by a shop that makes bike parts and grew
too expensive for him, with lead times of fifteen months the last time
I heard (Boeing can deliver a big jet in less time than that!).

Just for the record: Proper casework has no self-tapping metal screws
(1) but instead formed and threaded pressouts for proper bolts, and no
exposed edges, and no rough corners, and all cutouts are smoothed off
to both sides. That is an absolute minimum.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

(1) I was horrified by your report in another thread about an American
amp maker with pretty stiff prices whose casework depends on
selftappers edgewise into 6mm ali.

There's a place here in Perth (yes, I know that's a long way away from
many readers!), who does good stuff using CNC equipment. The onus is on
the customer to design & supply CAD files (I used Solid Edge), but the
work is then accurate. He will TIG the joints.
Expensive, yes.
Name: Custom Aluminium.

[Patrick Turner]

Andre Jute wrote:

On Dec 15, 11:45 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Patrick wrote:
I also cannot get a nice Al chassis made anywhere cheaply now because
all the
metalworkers in town seem to have evaporated or are s busy the lead time
is 4 months
like it is with me when someone orders anything from me.
When i do use Al, The top plate might be but the side are from 3mm wall
thick channels available in a range of
sizes. This is usually as good as steel for a 2 x 25 watt PP amp, or a
couple of SE channels such as athttp://www.turneraudio.com.au/4+4-set-stereo-2a3.html

For anything that tidy with tubes on top I'd have to charge a lot of
money, when then requires putting a nice piece of wood on the facia,
which again bumps up the price. I tend these days to put everything,
including tubes, under a cover, to avoid falling foul of consumer
protection legislation and even the insurance companies.

I get asked NOT to place a cover over tube amps.

In the case of the 2A3 amps I built at the above URL, I was not
compelled to
supply a cover over the tubes, and didn't feel it made the amps much
safer; only
2A3s exposed to the bruises of life, and no worse than two naked 25 watt
light bulbs with 240Vrms.

But when asked last week to not supply grilles over the new 845 amps I
refused,
saying that there IS too much danger, and likelyhood of damage,
and considering a single KR845 is worth usd $370 ( $1,780 for the two
monoblocs ),
landed at my door, its worth supplying $300 worth of grilles.
I have not finalised the design of them because the amps seem so ferkin
heavy, but something
welded from 10mm round bar and painted black will probably do.

I don't want to get relieved of my house ownership if **** happens
and smart lawyers are brought in to clean me out.


Steel channel plus AL toplates are used my 300 watters which have
separate chassis for each audio channel and power supplies for each;
so 4 chassis at 25kg each.

Yeah, my T199 Millennium's end 80W PSE Class A1 from SV572-3 weighed
125 pounds per channel. They were built that way to avoid HT
powercords and even 150V+ signal at pretty elevated current running
all over the place. Since they were used mostly in their SE 25W mode,
I eventually broke them up as simply too heavy.

An amp would still make a mess of itself falling off a bench though....

Even a "small" tube amp might make a mess of the bones in your foot.

!

I back the ali cover sheet with 3/4in or 9mm ply cut
to size (I buy the backing ply sheets cut to the right size in bulk
too, pre-varnished to save yet more time), which also serves as a
drilling stop. After I have drilled all the holes in the ali plate, I
enlarge the holes in the wood to contain bolt heads. When the assembly
is finished, the ply is bolted to the ali plate to stiffen it so that
the weight of the transformers don't fold up the amp... This flatbase
assembly is then covered by the "case", standing on 6 or 10mm
standoffs for ventilation. The cases are recycled, the flat plates
just thrown away after the breadboard is finished with; there's very
little waste. Above all, it is a quick way of getting a working
prototype and very safe too because there is a cover of the correct
size instantly to hand. At
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...0T68MZ417A.jpg
you can see such a breadboard that I liked so much that I have kept it
for several years now.

Not bad. Its your own though, and maybe you'd have trouble trying to
sell it to get a return on the costs...

That's actually a transformer coupled 300B base plate you're looking
at, the potato WE417A amp being made by removing the 300B and the IST
and rewiring the Lundahl power trx. When I sell T39 (which is a very
silent 3.8W RC coupled 417A/300B SE intended for horns or very high
efficiency speakers, see http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/T...trafi-crct.jpg
), I get that T68bis pattern professionally laser cut in 3mm tellurium
copper sheet. That was covered in the past (craftsman now retired) by
a solid-wood or veneered wooden box with a couple of inset copper
pieces to the front and back, or a polished stainless box simply
because, like you, I cannot get nice ali or steel boxes made to size.

Well one local company did offer its services two years ago.
The guy was 63, and had 3 sons with a lots of businesses,
one of which specialized in stainless steelware made to order.
But he doesn't follow up phone calls, and has let his website go off
line,
and last time I spoke to him he seemed to be rather slow,
and frankly I though he'd lost it. Anyway, prices would have been
horrendous.
"Professionals" are mostly a POX. They add a zero to a tradesman's
price,
just when it isn't wanted...

Blokes actually on the tools in the workshop
all like to get average weekly earnings for metalwork at least ( aud
$45k pa in Oz now ).
Their boss has to add heaps of on-costs because of profits, power, rent,
power etc.
But I only make 7k most years, and if I use ANY subcontractors at all
they clean me out and I work for nothing. Its because NOBODY ever offers
to pay me
as i should be paid, ie, as well as a tradesman. They only want to pay
me as they would an artist,
ie, a mixture of peanuts and lip service, so I am forced to sell for 1/2
the
high end price sometimes, when I should be paid twice as much.
I have to pay lots more for material and the time spent is huge
for a one off where all the R&D that a company might use for a bath of
1,000 amps
is the same as I use for just ONE amp.

And when I invested $3k in pre-made steel chassis equal to Quad
standards with tranny pots 3 years ago,
it seems that was a complete waste because I received not a single
order. They wanted amps
which didn't suit the chassis I had specially made to suit 4 different
types of amps.


I can't even get anything else except very thin stuff nicely bent any
more without going to a guy eighty miles away; the best I can do is
get a garden furniture maker eighty miles away the other side to weld
up some iron angle, pretty rough stuff...

I sold two of the T68bis but I had the copper plates cut to take 300B
as well, just in case the owners get fed up with the very low output
from the single 417A and decide to return them for upgrading.
Essentially, a potato amp should be a gimmick for poor audiophiles,
whereas my T68 is a novelty for plutocrats, probably the most
expensive amp per watt available anywhere... And it doesn't do too
badly on the Dunker Factor either, which measures goodness as mo'
pounds of weight per watt on the assumption that mo' iron is betta
iron.

I gave Mick a pair of WE417A for a potato amp but the last time he was
on RAT he said he thought they were too good for that; he was planning
to use them as high-current drivers in another amp.

I made a JBS amp

The T68 isn't a junkbox amp. It is made with all new parts, and only
the best: Lundahl iron, Solen caps, Cardas wire and connectors. I
don't build junkbox amps; it isn't worth my time and effort.

It isn't hard to get amazing sound fromk triodes with so-so parts
IF one knows what one is doing. I sure proved all that to
the audio club on more than one occasion....


Yo, Patrick, I find it heartening that you're having as much trouble
as I am getting a decent case made. For a while I though it was just
me being overly finicky... A couple of years ago I took apart a steel
case, resoldered it straight, filled and smoothed it off, and took it
back to the maker as a sample of acceptable quality; he looked me
straight in the eye and said, "It's a waste of time poncing around
with metrics. To the nearest inch is good enough."

Yup, the 845 pair of chassis did have slight out of squareness of about
1.5mm on plan,
and one side is 1mm higher than the other. Nobody will notice because
you cannot
see the errors. Barely within tolerances. Solid enough though.
But it put me off using that guy again. Even with his
factory tools he couldn't keep it any squarer than I can using
primitive blocks of wood, G-cramps, and a lump hammer and blocks of wood
to bend the metal.



For a while I could get cases from my Japanese mate, which he had made
in China to his exacting specifications. They were pretty good, but
only because the guy is in China with his valve tester and his
micrometer every other week, personally supervising, and he doesn't
mind paying for wastage as long as the final job is done perfectly.
But even the best Chinese casework, made under the supervision of an
obsessive, is still not crafted with the punctilio of the cases he
previously had made in Japan by a shop that makes bike parts and grew
too expensive for him, with lead times of fifteen months the last time
I heard (Boeing can deliver a big jet in less time than that!).

Just for the record: Proper casework has no self-tapping metal screws
(1) but instead formed and threaded pressouts for proper bolts, and no
exposed edges, and no rough corners, and all cutouts are smoothed off
to both sides. That is an absolute minimum.

The metalwork should FEEL GOOD.
And look neat, tidy, with not a single 90 degree edge anywhere.
Self tappers are OK if they secure items concealed 1mm sheet steel.
The Japs have been doing it for years in countless amps.
But external case securing screws should all be metal thread.
The VAC amp uses high tensile 3mm machine Allen screws with plenty of
penetration to edges of 6mm Al plates; not a bad way to do it so one
avoids
having to use steel angles or bars at all metalwork corners, which BTW
WOULD
be stronger....
If a VAC drops off a bench, maybe those 3mm screws shear off, and then
you have to
extract the buried part of the screw..YUK.

I dunno how much 2 x 70 watts from VAC costs these days; I assume its
next
to a king's ranson though.

But I raise my hat to those who sell such overpriced and expensive
equipments to the
gullible public.
Imagine if they left a zero off the price and charged like a GOOD
tradesman.
I'd never compete with them at all.

People come to me partially because they know the alternative costs so
much more,
and they realize the alterive's high price merely buys a BMW for the
boss,
and does not give them any more audio quality than I would provide.

Trouble is I am left with a price from which I find it difficult to
afford a bicycle.

They are extremely lucky I enjoy riding one, and dislike riding
expensive shielas.

Patrick Turner.



Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

(1) I was horrified by your report in another thread about an American
amp maker with pretty stiff prices whose casework depends on
selftappers edgewise into 6mm ali.

[News Client]

"Andre Jute" wrote in message ...
Yeah, my T199 Millennium's end 80W PSE Class A1 from SV572-3 weighed
125 pounds per channel...

When I sell T39...

I sold two of the T68bis...

I am skeptical. Please post photographs. Contact information for some of your
customers would be even more helpful (surely they would be proud to share the
details with interested third parties).

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"News Client" wrote in message
...
"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
Yeah, my T199 Millennium's end 80W PSE Class A1 from SV572-3 weighed
125 pounds per channel...

When I sell T39...

I sold two of the T68bis...

I am skeptical. Please post photographs. Contact information for some of
your
customers would be even more helpful (surely they would be proud to share
the
details with interested third parties).

I find it amusing that an anonymous poster,
writing from a ficticious e-mail address, should demand
that anyone here supply information of that sort:-)

Iain

[mick]

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 08:25:04 -0800, Andre Jute wrote:

snip

I gave Mick a pair of WE417A for a potato amp but the last time he was
on RAT he said he thought they were too good for that; he was planning
to use them as high-current drivers in another amp.


Still ongoing... :-)

First pics of new speakers on u.r.a

snip

(1) I was horrified by your report in another thread about an American
amp maker with pretty stiff prices whose casework depends on selftappers
edgewise into 6mm ali.


You probably know but, for the benefit of others, there are self-tappers
& self tappers! The very coarse ones are more correctly named "sheet
screws" and are remarkably good when fastening into steel or ali sheet
(but be careful not to overtighten as they can tear ali). There are also
some which look a lot like standard machine screws, but which usually
have a "trilobal" cross section if viewed from the end and often a slight
leading taper. These are hard to very hard screws and actually cut a
standard thread in the material when inserted correctly. You can put a
standard machine screw in afterward if you so wish. This sort shouldn't
have any problem into 6mm ali edges if the screw size is small (say M2.5
or M3 at most). The resulting assembly could be very strong if correctly
designed. They are useless into thin (say 2mm steel or 3mm ali) sheet
as they can't cut enough threads.

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web: http://www.nascom.info http://mixpix.batcave.net

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 16, 3:46 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote:

I find it amusing that an anonymous poster,
writing from a ficticious e-mail address, should demand
that anyone here supply information of that sort:-)

Iain

Iain:

True, but writing for myself, and having never seen one iota of
independently verifiable proof of any one of Andre's many claims, I
would also be curious about his having actually sold anything
electronic to anyone as a commercial venture. The key here is
"independently verifiable"... Andre has any number of pillocks,
puppets and peons who would lie for him.

Of course, there is considerable evidence contrary to his claims and
from individuals far more credible than he - so it would definitely
serve Andre well were he to clear up a few matters. And it wold very,
very definitely shut quite a number of people up, cold.

It is this latter point that I find most fascinating. It would seem
from the evidence that either one of two cases obtains:

a) Andre is a born-again liar and enjoys the attention his lies
engender.
b) Andre is actually entirely truthful, but is too stubborn to offer
proof; and 100% of those he has slandered without evidence or proof
other than his word are 100% liars.

As William of Occam suggests we avoid needless complexities, the
latter would seem to be just a wee bit of a stretch, the former
certainly fits the facts as they are available.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Jon Yaeger]

in article , mick at
lid wrote on 12/16/07 4:35 PM:

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 08:25:04 -0800, Andre Jute wrote:

snip

I gave Mick a pair of WE417A for a potato amp but the last time he was
on RAT he said he thought they were too good for that; he was planning
to use them as high-current drivers in another amp.


Still ongoing... :-)

First pics of new speakers on u.r.a

snip

(1) I was horrified by your report in another thread about an American
amp maker with pretty stiff prices whose casework depends on selftappers
edgewise into 6mm ali.


You probably know but, for the benefit of others, there are self-tappers
& self tappers! The very coarse ones are more correctly named "sheet
screws" and are remarkably good when fastening into steel or ali sheet
(but be careful not to overtighten as they can tear ali). There are also
some which look a lot like standard machine screws, but which usually
have a "trilobal" cross section if viewed from the end and often a slight
leading taper. These are hard to very hard screws and actually cut a
standard thread in the material when inserted correctly. You can put a
standard machine screw in afterward if you so wish. This sort shouldn't
have any problem into 6mm ali edges if the screw size is small (say M2.5
or M3 at most). The resulting assembly could be very strong if correctly
designed. They are useless into thin (say 2mm steel or 3mm ali) sheet
as they can't cut enough threads.

*****

I am in favor of the use of embedded PIM nuts because they permit you to
assemble and dis-assemble an amplifier without having to worry about
stripping out the sheet metal.

http://www.yaegeraudio.com/enclosures.tpl shows the design that I employ.

Jon

[Jon Yaeger]

in article
, Peter
Wieck at wrote on 12/16/07 4:38 PM:

On Dec 16, 3:46 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote:

I find it amusing that an anonymous poster,
writing from a ficticious e-mail address, should demand
that anyone here supply information of that sort:-)

Iain

Iain:

True, but writing for myself, and having never seen one iota of
independently verifiable proof of any one of Andre's many claims, I
would also be curious about his having actually sold anything
electronic to anyone as a commercial venture. The key here is
"independently verifiable"... Andre has any number of pillocks,
puppets and peons who would lie for him.

Of course, there is considerable evidence contrary to his claims and
from individuals far more credible than he - so it would definitely
serve Andre well were he to clear up a few matters. And it wold very,
very definitely shut quite a number of people up, cold.

It is this latter point that I find most fascinating. It would seem
from the evidence that either one of two cases obtains:

a) Andre is a born-again liar and enjoys the attention his lies
engender.
b) Andre is actually entirely truthful, but is too stubborn to offer
proof; and 100% of those he has slandered without evidence or proof
other than his word are 100% liars.

As William of Occam suggests we avoid needless complexities, the
latter would seem to be just a wee bit of a stretch, the former
certainly fits the facts as they are available.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA


Peter et. al.

Give Andre a break.

E.g., a fellow named "Mirko" paid good money for Andre's review sample of
the S.E.X. amplifier. It only had one channel built, and allegedly, quite
poorly so.

Supposedly Andre used a butane-powered soldering iron during the assembly
process. ;-)

You can see examples of Andre's "craft" on his own website:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm

and:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm

Andre has killfiled me, so we won't know what his "take" is on it all.

Keepin' it real,

Jon Yaeger

Garage Trader
Redneck
Booster of Andre Jute the booster

[bassett[_2_]]

" On Dec 16, 3:46 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote:

I find it amusing that an anonymous poster,
writing from a ficticious e-mail address, should demand
that anyone here supply information of that sort:-)

Iain

Out of hiding are we churches, have you apologised to TW yet,
You really are a weak little ****.

[bassett[_2_]]

"Jon Yaeger" wrote in message
...
in article
, Peter
Wieck at wrote on 12/16/07 4:38 PM:

On Dec 16, 3:46 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote:

I find it amusing that an anonymous poster,
writing from a ficticious e-mail address, should demand
that anyone here supply information of that sort:-)

Iain

Iain:

True, but writing for myself, and having never seen one iota of
independently verifiable proof of any one of Andre's many claims, I
would also be curious about his having actually sold anything
electronic to anyone as a commercial venture. The key here is
"independently verifiable"... Andre has any number of pillocks,
puppets and peons who would lie for him.

Of course, there is considerable evidence contrary to his claims and
from individuals far more credible than he - so it would definitely
serve Andre well were he to clear up a few matters. And it wold very,
very definitely shut quite a number of people up, cold.

It is this latter point that I find most fascinating. It would seem
from the evidence that either one of two cases obtains:

a) Andre is a born-again liar and enjoys the attention his lies
engender.
b) Andre is actually entirely truthful, but is too stubborn to offer
proof; and 100% of those he has slandered without evidence or proof
other than his word are 100% liars.

As William of Occam suggests we avoid needless complexities, the
latter would seem to be just a wee bit of a stretch, the former
certainly fits the facts as they are available.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA


Peter et. al.

Give Andre a break.

E.g., a fellow named "Mirko" paid good money for Andre's review sample of
the S.E.X. amplifier. It only had one channel built, and allegedly, quite
poorly so.

Supposedly Andre used a butane-powered soldering iron during the assembly
process. ;-)

You can see examples of Andre's "craft" on his own website:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm

and:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm

Andre has killfiled me, so we won't know what his "take" is on it all.

Keepin' it real,

Jon Yaeger

Garage Trader
Redneck
Booster of Andre Jute the booster



No problem dude, we have a forwarding service,
The accounts in the post,,

E.g., a fellow named "Mirko" paid good money for Andre's review sample of
the S.E.X. amplifier. It only had one channel built, and allegedly, quite
poorly so.

Supposedly Andre used a butane-powered soldering iron during the assembly
process. ;-)

You can see examples of Andre's "craft" on his own website:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm

and:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm

Andre has killfiled me, so we won't know what his "take" is on it all.

Keepin' it real,

Jon Yaeger

Garage Trader
Redneck
Booster of Andre Jute the booster

[Ian Thompson-Bell]

Jon Yaeger wrote:
Peter et. al.

Give Andre a break.

E.g., a fellow named "Mirko" paid good money for Andre's review sample of
the S.E.X. amplifier. It only had one channel built, and allegedly, quite
poorly so.

Supposedly Andre used a butane-powered soldering iron during the assembly
process. ;-)

You can see examples of Andre's "craft" on his own website:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm

and:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm


Er, are those two URLs identical?? AFAICS neither points to anything
tube related.


Ian

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"bassett" wrote in message
...

" On Dec 16, 3:46 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote:

I find it amusing that an anonymous poster,
writing from a ficticious e-mail address, should demand
that anyone here supply information of that sort:-)

Iain

Out of hiding are we churches,

I don't know about you, Bassett, but I certainly haven't
been hiding anywhere. Perhaps you were using the
term we" in the sense that Royalty does? LOL:-)

have you apologised to TW yet,

If you are referring to the discussion re balanced phono
cartridges, I quoted chapter and verse from the
Morgan Jones book. The fact that Trevor did not
have the book and was unwilling to buy or even
borrow it, greatly reduced his ability to discuss
its contents. I notice that you had no comment
to make while the discussion was taking place.

You appear to be still struggling with syntax and spelling.
Perhaps when you have grasped the rudiments,
you will grace us all with a post on topic - tube audio,
and stop the ingenuous sniping from behind your
anonymity and spurious e-mail address.

Iain

[Andre Jute]

On Dec 15, 6:00 pm, David R Brooks wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Dec 15, 11:45 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Patrick wrote:
I also cannot get a nice Al chassis made anywhere cheaply now because
all the
metalworkers in town seem to have evaporated or are s busy the lead time
is 4 months
like it is with me when someone orders anything from me.
When i do use Al, The top plate might be but the side are from 3mm wall
thick channels available in a range of
sizes. This is usually as good as steel for a 2 x 25 watt PP amp, or a
couple of SE channels such as athttp://www.turneraudio.com.au/4+4-set-stereo-2a3.html

For anything that tidy with tubes on top I'd have to charge a lot of
money, when then requires putting a nice piece of wood on the facia,
which again bumps up the price. I tend these days to put everything,
including tubes, under a cover, to avoid falling foul of consumer
protection legislation and even the insurance companies.

Steel channel plus AL toplates are used my 300 watters which have
separate chassis for each audio channel and power supplies for each;
so 4 chassis at 25kg each.

Yeah, my T199 Millennium's end 80W PSE Class A1 from SV572-3 weighed
125 pounds per channel. They were built that way to avoid HT
powercords and even 150V+ signal at pretty elevated current running
all over the place. Since they were used mostly in their SE 25W mode,
I eventually broke them up as simply too heavy.

An amp would still make a mess of itself falling off a bench though....

Even a "small" tube amp might make a mess of the bones in your foot.

I back the ali cover sheet with 3/4in or 9mm ply cut
to size (I buy the backing ply sheets cut to the right size in bulk
too, pre-varnished to save yet more time), which also serves as a
drilling stop. After I have drilled all the holes in the ali plate, I
enlarge the holes in the wood to contain bolt heads. When the assembly
is finished, the ply is bolted to the ali plate to stiffen it so that
the weight of the transformers don't fold up the amp... This flatbase
assembly is then covered by the "case", standing on 6 or 10mm
standoffs for ventilation. The cases are recycled, the flat plates
just thrown away after the breadboard is finished with; there's very
little waste. Above all, it is a quick way of getting a working
prototype and very safe too because there is a cover of the correct
size instantly to hand. At
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...0T68MZ417A.jpg
you can see such a breadboard that I liked so much that I have kept it
for several years now.
Not bad. Its your own though, and maybe you'd have trouble trying to
sell it to get a return on the costs...

That's actually a transformer coupled 300B base plate you're looking
at, the potato WE417A amp being made by removing the 300B and the IST
and rewiring the Lundahl power trx. When I sell T39 (which is a very
silent 3.8W RC coupled 417A/300B SE intended for horns or very high
efficiency speakers, seehttp://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/T39-KISS-300B-Ultrafi-crct.jpg
), I get that T68bis pattern professionally laser cut in 3mm tellurium
copper sheet. That was covered in the past (craftsman now retired) by
a solid-wood or veneered wooden box with a couple of inset copper
pieces to the front and back, or a polished stainless box simply
because, like you, I cannot get nice ali or steel boxes made to size.
I can't even get anything else except very thin stuff nicely bent any
more without going to a guy eighty miles away; the best I can do is
get a garden furniture maker eighty miles away the other side to weld
up some iron angle, pretty rough stuff...

I sold two of the T68bis but I had the copper plates cut to take 300B
as well, just in case the owners get fed up with the very low output
from the single 417A and decide to return them for upgrading.
Essentially, a potato amp should be a gimmick for poor audiophiles,
whereas my T68 is a novelty for plutocrats, probably the most
expensive amp per watt available anywhere... And it doesn't do too
badly on the Dunker Factor either, which measures goodness as mo'
pounds of weight per watt on the assumption that mo' iron is betta
iron.

I gave Mick a pair of WE417A for a potato amp but the last time he was
on RAT he said he thought they were too good for that; he was planning
to use them as high-current drivers in another amp.

I made a JBS amp

The T68 isn't a junkbox amp. It is made with all new parts, and only
the best: Lundahl iron, Solen caps, Cardas wire and connectors. I
don't build junkbox amps; it isn't worth my time and effort.

Yo, Patrick, I find it heartening that you're having as much trouble
as I am getting a decent case made. For a while I though it was just
me being overly finicky... A couple of years ago I took apart a steel
case, resoldered it straight, filled and smoothed it off, and took it
back to the maker as a sample of acceptable quality; he looked me
straight in the eye and said, "It's a waste of time poncing around
with metrics. To the nearest inch is good enough."

For a while I could get cases from my Japanese mate, which he had made
in China to his exacting specifications. They were pretty good, but
only because the guy is in China with his valve tester and his
micrometer every other week, personally supervising, and he doesn't
mind paying for wastage as long as the final job is done perfectly.
But even the best Chinese casework, made under the supervision of an
obsessive, is still not crafted with the punctilio of the cases he
previously had made in Japan by a shop that makes bike parts and grew
too expensive for him, with lead times of fifteen months the last time
I heard (Boeing can deliver a big jet in less time than that!).

Just for the record: Proper casework has no self-tapping metal screws
(1) but instead formed and threaded pressouts for proper bolts, and no
exposed edges, and no rough corners, and all cutouts are smoothed off
to both sides. That is an absolute minimum.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps athttp://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

(1) I was horrified by your report in another thread about an American
amp maker with pretty stiff prices whose casework depends on
selftappers edgewise into 6mm ali.

There's a place here in Perth (yes, I know that's a long way away from
many readers!), who does good stuff using CNC equipment. The onus is on
the customer to design & supply CAD files (I used Solid Edge), but the
work is then accurate. He will TIG the joints.
Expensive, yes.
Name: Custom Aluminium.

That's the other side of the world from where I live in Ireland. Hell,
it's the other side of a big desert from from my Australian base of
Adelaide. But Perth is definitely a worthwhile city to visit; some of
the prettiest girls in the world.

Andre Jute
Expert

[Andre Jute]

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Jon Yaeger wrote:
Peter et. al.

Give Andre a break.

E.g., a fellow named "Mirko" paid good money for Andre's review sample of
the S.E.X. amplifier. It only had one channel built, and allegedly, quite
poorly so.

Supposedly Andre used a butane-powered soldering iron during the assembly
process. ;-)

You can see examples of Andre's "craft" on his own website:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm

and:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...dre%20Jute.htm


Er, are those two URLs identical?? AFAICS neither points to anything
tube related.


Ian

I'm afraid you're being comprehensively lied to, Ian, by Yaeger, Wieck
etc. The headline is a lie: I am not a commercial amp builder. Mirko
never paid me a penny for the SEX kit I built; with the agreement of
the manufacturer first obtained, I gave Mirko those SEX amps free of
charge to use and display in his shop in Switzerland to get the
manufacturer more publicity. And so on: whatever those worthless
little netstalkers and garage traders say about me is almost always a
lie.

If you want to know about the SEX amp, the authoritative source is my
review in Glass Audio, pp54-67, Vol 9 No 6 1997. If you want to see
amps I designed and built, a few are on my netsite:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS.htm
-- where you will find much more of interest to the tube amp builder.

Those who have been on RAT a while understand that merely because I
don't correct the lies of the netscum stalking me does not make what
they say any less of a lie. I don't even see their lies unless some
innocent replies to them.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 17, 4:31 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Those who have been on RAT a while understand that merely because I
don't correct the lies of the netscum stalking me does not make what
they say any less of a lie. I don't even see their lies unless some
innocent replies to them.

More like: Those who have been on RAT a while understand that you
libel the way others breath without one whit of evidence, and without
the grace to support your charges with proof - proof being
independently verifiable and from an unimpeachable source. So, you
cannot correct those "stalking" you as you haven't the wherewithall.
So, you add more lies as you have no other choice.

Please - prove us all wrong. What with your stellar credentials and
history, that should be the work of a moment. Then we will shut up,
shrivel up and blow away.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Andre Jute]

On Dec 16, 9:35 pm, mick wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 08:25:04 -0800, Andre Jute wrote:

snip



I gave Mick a pair of WE417A for a potato amp but the last time he was
on RAT he said he thought they were too good for that; he was planning
to use them as high-current drivers in another amp.

Still ongoing... :-)

First pics of new speakers on u.r.a

snip



(1) I was horrified by your report in another thread about an American
amp maker with pretty stiff prices whose casework depends on selftappers
edgewise into 6mm ali.

You probably know but, for the benefit of others, there are self-tappers
& self tappers! The very coarse ones are more correctly named "sheet
screws" and are remarkably good when fastening into steel or ali sheet
(but be careful not to overtighten as they can tear ali). There are also
some which look a lot like standard machine screws, but which usually
have a "trilobal" cross section if viewed from the end and often a slight
leading taper. These are hard to very hard screws and actually cut a
standard thread in the material when inserted correctly. You can put a
standard machine screw in afterward if you so wish. This sort shouldn't
have any problem into 6mm ali edges if the screw size is small (say M2.5
or M3 at most). The resulting assembly could be very strong if correctly
designed. They are useless into thin (say 2mm steel or 3mm ali) sheet
as they can't cut enough threads.

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web:http://www.nascom.info http://mixpix.batcave.net

Thanks for the screw-notes, Mick. I had heard a whisper, but the last
time I went into it at all was about 1992 so the refresher was
appreciated. I think doing the job right will see me out, though.

I like your speakers, but I like your wife's nativity in the fireplace
better. I can see you're headed for the divorce courts unless you
paint those speakers the same colour as the walls. We have walls in
our drawing room the same colour up to about three feet, cream above
that. Dark brown varnish might also do it for your speaks; I used to
have a pair of ESL-63 downstairs which blended nicely but the foliage
tried to mate with my stats and the cats eyed them as scratching
posts, so I took a hint and took them away to my study.

Of course, it is not news to anyone with eyes in his head and the nous
to use them that we live in a matriarchy.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

[Andre Jute]

On Dec 16, 8:46 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"News Client" wrote in message

...

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
Yeah, my T199 Millennium's end 80W PSE Class A1 from SV572-3 weighed
125 pounds per channel...

When I sell T39...

I sold two of the T68bis...

I am skeptical. Please post photographs. Contact information for some of
your
customers would be even more helpful (surely they would be proud to share
the
details with interested third parties).

I find it amusing that an anonymous poster,
writing from a ficticious e-mail address, should demand
that anyone here supply information of that sort:-)

Iain

The garage trading and janitorial classes probably think that is how
business is conducted.

Andre Jute
Charisma is the talent of inducing apoplexy in losers by merely
existing

[News Client]

Andre Jute wrote:
I'm afraid you're being comprehensively lied to, Ian, by Yaeger, Wieck
etc... Mirko never paid me a penny for the SEX kit I built; with the
agreement of the manufacturer first obtained, I gave Mirko those SEX
amps free of charge to use and display in his shop in Switzerland to
get the manufacturer more publicity. And so on: whatever those worthless
little netstalkers and garage traders say about me is almost always a
lie.

This statement is misleading. We can learn from the Google archives
that Andre traded Mirko the S.E.X. amplifiers for valuable Lowther
drivers. In an email to Michael Lafevre posted on this group, Mirko
expresses his disgust with the amplifiers he received from Andre.
Michael, who also spoke to Mirko about it on the phone, further
describes just how upset Mirko was on account of being ripped off by
Andre.

Mirko wrote:

Hi Mike
it was wery nice talking to you on the phone. I am sure you can also see
how low the level on Joenet got since we had several visitors trying to do
a self anylysis in a trivial way and trying to destroy others.
I will send you the wild art of homework of Andre ( the amp he " made " )
and you will see how he works and thinks.
I did NOT touch this amp becouse it felt so dirty...
Please give me your postal adress and I wil send it to USA.
I hope you continue your work and help us amateurs ( me ) also in the
future
to listen to our big love - the sound of our souls.
Have a nice day
Mirko

My other e-mail adress:
Fax: ++41 31 331 08 78

Jura Pharmacy
M.Kubala
Breitenrainplatz 40
3014 Bern
Switzerland

P.S.
Dont worry about Mr.Jute - nobody knows him in Europe.

Here is a link to the full article:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...3f349e376edf76

The facts tell a clear story, regardless of Andre's dissembling.

[News Client]

Andre Jute wrote:
The headline is a lie: I am not a commercial amp builder.

This is not what the record tells us. On many occasions you,
in your own words, have claimed to be in the commercial business
of amplifier design and manufacture.

Fortunately, the Google archives come to our aid again. The
fellow who calls himself "Hypertension" did some excellent
research and posted his findings here last year:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...25f4efc78554f7

You repeatedly flip-flop, depending on the situation, between
claiming to be a big-time designer and saying you are just an
amateur.

What is the truth? One thing is su there is only one liar
here, and his name is Jute.

[News Client]

Andre Jute wrote:
If you want to see amps I designed and built, a few are on my netsite:
http://members....uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS.htm

I only see the three photos of the one prototype amplifier. I'm looking
for some concrete evidence of the finished products you say you've designed,
built, and sold.

Lacking any evidence, the logical conclusion is that you are attempting to
deceive the newsgroup.

West wrote:

Check out Andre's Web site ( http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/ )
and you'll soon discover that he is a brilliant man revered by many
professionals in the field.

This appears to be a considerable overstatement.

[Jon Yaeger]

in article
, Andre
Jute at wrote on 12/17/07 4:31 PM:


I'm afraid you're being comprehensively lied to, Ian, by Yaeger, Wieck
etc. The headline is a lie: I am not a commercial amp builder. . . . .

Those who have been on RAT a while understand that merely because I
don't correct the lies of the netscum stalking me does not make what
they say any less of a lie. I don't even see their lies unless some
innocent replies to them.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review



OK boss, so you are not a "commercial amp builder." That is a lie, eh?

We'll, let's take a look at what the archives have to say about that (in
YOUR own words):

Andre Jute wrote

Actually, I see I have a circuit standing on my computer for
my original T17 "Solist" of the period 1992-1994, reverse-engineered
after the event when I licensed the design

RAT Mar 1 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...8e31b4052fac?&...

I can't license the design because it would
compete with the one codenamed Zero,

and

Hmm. I actually have suitable casework for that already, a
pre-production sample sent for my approval on another design

RAT Mar 1 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...5cc328c86f70?&...

I always intended to publish my horn for DIY as well*. But when I rose this
afternoon the bigotry,
intolerance and outright stupidity I read on the list ****ed me off so much
that I called a manufacturer in Denmark and asked him if wants to licence
whatever horn I decide to make with whatever driver catches my fancy. He
does. My lawyer in New York was up, we agreed terms, contracts were
exchanged by fax, and a check is in the post.

footnote to above

*When I came here first, I promised that, in the spirit of the ARRL, I would
publish an amp design for DIYers. Because all my existing designs at the
time were committed to manufacturers and thus not mine to publish, I
shall later this year publish a modular 300B series which I have developed
for amateur construction, of which the protoypes are currently on the bench.

JoeNet 15 May 1997

Quoted on RAT 29 Mar 1999

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...rm/thread/5cbe...

It was this consideration which persuaded me to sell my last pair of good
ESL57 when a Japanese gentleman who licensed an amp from me made me an
exceptional offer to have them in his collection.

RAT 30 Dec 2003

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...ff4b2f782c91?&...

I dont waste time and effort making beautiful fittings for an item I will
break up next week. When the proto works, if I license it, I charge extra
for designing great casework, and someone else builds the proto of the
casework for me to approve and for the factory to copy.

RAT 24 Dec 2003

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...fc40125b5018?&...

I design ultra-fi tube gear, which I license to manufacturers in Northern
Ireland and the Far East

Aus.Hi-fi 30 Dec 2003

http://groups.google.com/group/aus.h...76d2040?&hl=en

The truth is that your 18 month flame war on me . has turned me into
such an expert on net stalkers and protecting oneself against them--and
profiting from their activities--that the books and articles and
consulting fees from frightened companies . will amount to seven
figures when it is all in.

You think that by your smear campaign you have killed design work flowing
in. Quite the
opposite: you are so well hated in the industry for your selfish
disruptions, many manufacturers and distributors have volunteered
components and projects and design work, more than I ever dreamed of

regarding some OEM transformer users

most are so minuscule that my tiny custom amp firm builds more protos every
quarter than several of them
collectively sell amps in a year-

RAT 1 August 1999

[Jon Yaeger]

For the record, I stand corrected. Jute received consideration other than
coin of the realm for his "version" of the S.E.X. Amplifier.

Please pardon my error.
Jon





in article , News Client at
wrote on 12/17/07 6:32 PM:

Andre Jute wrote:
I'm afraid you're being comprehensively lied to, Ian, by Yaeger, Wieck
etc... Mirko never paid me a penny for the SEX kit I built; with the
agreement of the manufacturer first obtained, I gave Mirko those SEX
amps free of charge to use and display in his shop in Switzerland to
get the manufacturer more publicity. And so on: whatever those worthless
little netstalkers and garage traders say about me is almost always a
lie.

This statement is misleading. We can learn from the Google archives
that Andre traded Mirko the S.E.X. amplifiers for valuable Lowther
drivers. In an email to Michael Lafevre posted on this group, Mirko
expresses his disgust with the amplifiers he received from Andre.
Michael, who also spoke to Mirko about it on the phone, further
describes just how upset Mirko was on account of being ripped off by
Andre.

Mirko wrote:

Hi Mike
it was wery nice talking to you on the phone. I am sure you can also see
how low the level on Joenet got since we had several visitors trying to do
a self anylysis in a trivial way and trying to destroy others.
I will send you the wild art of homework of Andre ( the amp he " made " )
and you will see how he works and thinks.
I did NOT touch this amp becouse it felt so dirty...
Please give me your postal adress and I wil send it to USA.
I hope you continue your work and help us amateurs ( me ) also in the
future
to listen to our big love - the sound of our souls.
Have a nice day
Mirko

My other e-mail adress:
Fax: ++41 31 331 08 78

Jura Pharmacy
M.Kubala
Breitenrainplatz 40
3014 Bern
Switzerland

P.S.
Dont worry about Mr.Jute - nobody knows him in Europe.

Here is a link to the full article:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...ead/150640ddfd
7962bb/353f349e376edf76?lnk=st&q=#353f349e376edf76

The facts tell a clear story, regardless of Andre's dissembling.

[Ian Iveson]

Peter Wieck wrote:

True, but writing for myself, and having never seen one
iota of
independently verifiable proof of any one of Andre's many
claims, I
would also be curious about his having actually sold
anything
electronic to anyone as a commercial venture. The key here
is
"independently verifiable"... Andre has any number of
pillocks...

Same is true of Patrick Turner.

His defence is that the kind of people who buy his stuff
"wouldn't be seen dead" on this newsgroup.

You'd think that after so many years, at least one satisfied
customer would speak up for him. After all, he says he
doesn't advertise, and relies on recommendations.

Who knows the truth, about any of us?

Ian

[Jon Yaeger]

in article , Ian Iveson at
wrote on 12/18/07 10:09 AM:

Peter Wieck wrote:

True, but writing for myself, and having never seen one
iota of
independently verifiable proof of any one of Andre's many
claims, I
would also be curious about his having actually sold
anything
electronic to anyone as a commercial venture. The key here
is
"independently verifiable"... Andre has any number of
pillocks...

Same is true of Patrick Turner.

His defence is that the kind of people who buy his stuff
"wouldn't be seen dead" on this newsgroup.

You'd think that after so many years, at least one satisfied
customer would speak up for him. After all, he says he
doesn't advertise, and relies on recommendations.

Who knows the truth, about any of us?

Ian


Ian,

If you can't grasp the difference between Andre's pretense and Turner's
competency, I'm not sure what I can say, except that I'm sorry.

Jon

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 18, 10:09 am, "Ian Iveson"
wrote:

Same is true of Patrick Turner.

His defence is that the kind of people who buy his stuff
"wouldn't be seen dead" on this newsgroup.

You'd think that after so many years, at least one satisfied
customer would speak up for him. After all, he says he
doesn't advertise, and relies on recommendations.

OH FER CRISSAKES....

Have you been to Patrick's website? Have you seen his designs? Have
you seen his work? Have you seen his adaptations? Have you made even
the most superficial comparison with Andre's site and work?

His reconstruction of the venerable Dynaco ST70 alone shows more
thought, skill and competence than all of Andre's work.

Add one more variable: Have you caught Patrick in a single lie? Ever?

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Andre Jute]

Ian:

It is a mistake to align yourself with that scum of forgers, character
assassins, pornography mongers, child molesters, liars, garage vermin
and suchlike. Neither Patrick nor I owe that scum the least
accountability; indeed it would be a betrayal of truth and free speech
to permit such anti-social scum to bully us into compliance with their
urge to control their betters by as much as replying to them.

I agree with you: Patrick can sometimes be a stubborn pain in the ass,
but he has been very helpful to me, for instance when I recently
privately circulated a design in a topology I hadn't touched for
fifteen years; Patrick is a contributor as contrasted with your new
pals, who are wannabe destroyers. The thing is that, seen objectively,
you are as stubborn a pain in the ass as Patrick, merely with better
grammar. Neither case, Patrick's or yours, is a good reason for making
common cause with the enemies of RAT like Worthless Wiecky and the
garage vermin Yaeger. Opinion is free but betrayal of principle is
never forgiven.

Andre Jute
Zero mercy for the enemies of society

On Dec 18, 3:09 pm, "Ian Iveson"
wrote:

Same is true of Patrick Turner.

His defence is that the kind of people who buy his stuff
"wouldn't be seen dead" on this newsgroup.

You'd think that after so many years, at least one satisfied
customer would speak up for him. After all, he says he
doesn't advertise, and relies on recommendations.

Who knows the truth, about any of us?

Ian

[Mark S]

"Jon Yaeger" wrote in message
...
in article , Ian Iveson at
wrote on 12/18/07 10:09 AM:

Peter Wieck wrote:

True, but writing for myself, and having never seen one
iota of
independently verifiable proof of any one of Andre's many
claims, I
would also be curious about his having actually sold
anything
electronic to anyone as a commercial venture. The key here
is
"independently verifiable"... Andre has any number of
pillocks...

Same is true of Patrick Turner.

His defence is that the kind of people who buy his stuff
"wouldn't be seen dead" on this newsgroup.

You'd think that after so many years, at least one satisfied
customer would speak up for him. After all, he says he
doesn't advertise, and relies on recommendations.

Who knows the truth, about any of us?

Ian


Ian,

If you can't grasp the difference between Andre's pretense and Turner's
competency, I'm not sure what I can say, except that I'm sorry.

Jon


Absolutely, there was a time about oh, 6-7 years ago when Jute and Allison
tried like hell to drive Patrick out of this group. They did not succeed,
obviously, but I believe you were around back then too Ian. Patrick plied
'em 10-15K posts until they were bloody. Now, it's "Yo Patrick" from Jute
like they're best buddies. I think somewhere in there Jute realized he was
no match for Patrick and discovered bicycles; a bridge to save face as it
were. However, your point is well taken, who really knows who is typing!
Although I will say Peter is for real, even though I've never met him face
to face.
MarkS

[Jon Yaeger]

On 12/18/07 5:38 PM, in article
, "Andre
Jute" wrote:

Ian:

It is a mistake to align yourself with that scum of forgers, character
assassins, pornography mongers, child molesters, liars, garage vermin
and suchlike.

**** Ah, that would explain your cognitive dissonance. Your character (or
more accurately, lack thereof) has been clearly revealed for all to see.
Amazing that you have no shame.

**** I understand why you would prefer to call ad hominem attacks to
dealing with the uncomfortable -- i.e. damning -- questions that I have
tossed your way. You are a sad and lonely attic-dweller and decency demands
that you should be left alone to lick your miserable sores.


I agree with you: Patrick can sometimes be a stubborn pain in the ass,
but he has been very helpful to me, for instance when I recently
privately circulated a design in a topology I hadn't touched for
fifteen years; Patrick is a contributor as contrasted with your new
pals, who are wannabe destroyers. The thing is that, seen objectively,
you are as stubborn a pain in the ass as Patrick, merely with better
grammar

**** Patrick is an order of magnitude more helpful than you ever dreamed of
being.

.. Neither case, Patrick's or yours, is a good reason for making
common cause with the enemies of RAT like Worthless Wiecky and the
garage vermin Yaeger. Opinion is free but betrayal of principle is
never forgiven.

**** Dre', did you have any principles to betray when you libeled Henry?
When you "absorbed" the Lundahl review iron? When you traded Mirko crap for
good stuff? When you lied about a book you never wrote? And on and on?

**** Fare as well as you can. You are vapor to me.

Jon

Andre Jute
Zero mercy for the enemies of society

On Dec 18, 3:09 pm, "Ian Iveson"
wrote:

Same is true of Patrick Turner.

His defence is that the kind of people who buy his stuff
"wouldn't be seen dead" on this newsgroup.

You'd think that after so many years, at least one satisfied
customer would speak up for him. After all, he says he
doesn't advertise, and relies on recommendations.

Who knows the truth, about any of us?

Ian

[Patrick Turner]

snip lots,
There's a place here in Perth (yes, I know that's a long way away from
many readers!), who does good stuff using CNC equipment. The onus is on
the customer to design & supply CAD files (I used Solid Edge), but the
work is then accurate. He will TIG the joints.
Expensive, yes.
Name: Custom Aluminium.

That's the other side of the world from where I live in Ireland. Hell,
it's the other side of a big desert from from my Australian base of
Adelaide. But Perth is definitely a worthwhile city to visit; some of
the prettiest girls in the world.

Andre Jute
Expert

We have a few guys here with fully automated metal stamping cutting
laser cutting etc.

Canberra has considerable industry for hi tech mil spec gear and some
very good metal case work people exist.

Its only cheap if you want a pile of work done, say chassis for say 12
pairs of monos with pots for PT, OPT,
ie, a day's work for 2 guys with gee whiz machines. They charged me
$3,000 for such work.

But they charge like wounded bulls for just two amp boxes; there is a
high set up fee,
and so you have to go to the few guys who still use traditional old
bending and welding methods.
This lower caste mob just put an dumb apprentice onto such work and its
never a perfect job.

Patrick Turner.