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Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10
where NONE of the extent how to articles actually
tell you what you actually really need to do!

Here's what happened...

1. I read this post about an hour or so ago on the a.c.f newsgroup:
o The nice thing about Audacity
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/S1IXPT3xk7g
Which says this one line:
"It can record the music from a youtube live stream."

2. Being infinitely curious about all tool functionality, I tried
Audacity but failed even after reading a dozen web tutorials.

3. In the end, Audacity worked - but the point I'm making is that
absolutely NONE of the tutorials explained the _necessary_
missing step (which is apparently required only on newer versions
of Windows 10 as explained below).

NOTE: If you're NOT on the later versions of Windows 10, most of the
tutorials "should" work; but this is an example where they don't.

=== below is my ad hoc log just now attempting to do this ===
a. Googling for tutorials, here what I try (all failed), in sequence:
https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001137.htm
https://www.aimersoft.com/record-music/audacity-youtube.html
https://www.labnol.org/software/record-streaming-audio/5000/
https://audacityguide.com/audacity-records-computer-audio
https://audacity.wonderhowto.com/how-to/record-streaming-audio-from-internet-with-audacity-296750/
https://www.online-tech-tips.com/computer-tips/how-to-capture-save-record-or-download-streaming-audio-for-free/
https://www.widsmob.com/tips/capture-youtube-audio.html (worthless)
https://www.easeus.com/screen-recording-tips/record-youtube-audio.html
https://davescomputertips.com/how-to-record-internet-audio-with-audacity/

Note: Not only do they all omit important information, they conflict.
This is the key reason why most tutorials suck.

b. Find a short YouTube test video to record the audio stream of.
o Bill Gates Remembers Richard Feynman - Bill Gates - 5/11/2018
https://youtu.be/HotLmqYFKKg

Test that you "can" download just the M4A audio from that URL:
youtube-dl.exe -f 140 https://youtu.be/HotLmqYFKKg
[youtube] HotLmqYFKKg: Downloading webpage
[youtube] HotLmqYFKKg: Downloading MPD manifest
[dashsegments] Total fragments: 15
[download] Destination: Bill Gates Remembers Richard Feynman - Bill Gates - 5_11_2018-HotLmqYFKKg.m4a
[download] 100% of 2.08MiB in 01:57
[ffmpeg] Correcting container in "Bill Gates Remembers Richard Feynman - Bill Gates - 5_11_2018-HotLmqYFKKg.m4a"

move "Bill Gates Remembers Richard Feynman - Bill Gates - 5_11_2018-HotLmqYFKKg.m4a" gates_feynman.m4a
Name: gates_feynman.m4a
Size: 2174708 bytes (2123 KiB)
SHA256: 748707B94311B10B19E45EAB99DEE3495E36BC91BDA062B3C5 02DDF1AD1B720B

Doubleclick on the audio to ensure it plays (VLC, MPC-BE, WMP, whatever).

c. Install Audacity from the canonical site only (caveat emptor):
https://sourceforge.net/projects/audacity/
https://www.audacityteam.org/
https://www.audacityteam.org/download/
https://www.audacityteam.org/download/windows/
https://www.fosshub.com/Audacity.html
https://download.fosshub.com/gibberish/audacity-2.4.2.zip
Save to X:\archive\editor\audio\audacity\audacity-2.4.2.zip
Name: audacity-2.4.2.zip
Size: 11713880 bytes (11 MiB)
SHA256: 0C14F7C6850C93B9DACC14FE66876B8DC3397D92DBD8498987 83A21BAD1FFF55
Extract to c:\app\editor\audio\audacity\{...files...}
Name: audacity.exe
Size: 12676096 bytes (12 MiB)
SHA256: 02239A8C897496BA9F03AC967AF2CA5A03221BE83D8E733909 7EDBFFC2B96E37
Compare hash with that on the web site:
https://www.audacityteam.org/download/online-safety-when-downloading/#validate
Create a shortcut:
FILESPEC c:\menu\editor\audio\audacity.lnk
TARGET C:\app\editor\audio\audacity\audacity.exe
STARTIN %appdata%\0 (which doesn't exist)
COMMENT Audacity

d. Do we still need to install LAME and/or FFMPEG separately?
I don't know.
This just loops back to the Audacity web site:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/audacity/?s=install&i=lame-mp3

e. The "Stereo Mix" option "may" not be available if you do not have an
external sound card (i.e., in an expansion slot) versus an integrated
sound card (i.e., on the motherboard). I happen to have an expansion
card mounted GeForce 210 graphics card & AMD integrated graphics GPU
on the motherboard (i.e., I have both types).

f. Start Audacity & check the version so we're on the same version:
taskbar menu editor audio audacity
Audacity:Help About Audacity == Audacity 2.4.2

g. Check that you "can" record as you'll need "Stereo Mix":
Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Recording
Device: [?]
Channels: [?]
Mine said "No devices found" & nothing else was in the drop down entry.

h. Set the computer so that you "can" record via "Stereo Mix":
Win+R control View by: Category
Hardware and sound Sound Playback
Make sure that the Speakers are checked with a green checkmark.
Hardware and sound Sound Recording
Rightclick in a blank area & check "Show Disabled Devices"
Mine said: Stereo Mix, Realtek High Definition Audio, Disabled
When I rightclicked to set that to "Enabled" I got a notification:
"Your privacy settings blocked access to the microphone"
(It went away before I could click on the settings though.)
Close & restart Audacity and "Stereo Mix (Realtek High Definiti)"
shows up where it didn't show up before.

You should now have:
Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Recording
Device: [Stereo Mix (Realtek High Defini)]
Channels: [2 (Stereo)]

Press OK to close the preferences menu setup.

i. In your favorite browser, start playing the YouTube video:
https://youtu.be/HotLmqYFKKg

j. In Audacity, attempt to record the video that is now playing:
Audacity:Transport Recording Record
I got:
Error
Error opening recording device.
Error code: -9999 Unanticipated host error.

k. So I switched off the VPN and tried again but got the same error.
I should note I don't have a microphone, but the speaker plays youtube.

l. Some tutorials say to set it to MME & others to WASAPI but both fail:
Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Host:
(Mine was set to [MME])
Change that to: [Windows WASAPI]
It still fails.

m. Look up the colors of the 1/8th-inch stereo ports on my motherboard:
Pink = Microphone in
Blue Stereo in
Green Speaker out

n. One option I tried was to connect a 1/8th-inch stereo male-to-male
loopback cable into the green (headphone out) & pink (mic in) ports.
But it still failed.

o. Giving up on the lousy tutorials, I resort to googling the error.
(bearing in mind I do NOT have a microphone)
https://github.com.cnpmjs.org/audacity/audacity/issues/663
https://appuals.com/audacity-error-code-9999-unanticipated-host-error/
https://www.windowsdispatch.com/fix-audacity-error-code-9999-unanticipated-host/
https://www.drivereasy.com/knowledge/fix-audacity-error-opening-sound-device-issue/
https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001194.htm
https://www.techjunkie.com/audacity-error-opening-sound-device-how-to-fix/
https://sourceforge.net/p/audacity/mailman/message/36531828/
Possibilities (according to the above cites)
a. Microphone access is restricted.
b. Antivirus conflict
c. Skype/Zoom conflict
d. Ensure the external sound device is plugged in (desktop only)
e. Ensure the external sound device is enabled
f. Ensure audio device settings in Audacity are configured correctly
g. Turn off Software Playthrough in Audacity
h. Update the audio driver
i. Restart the Windows Audio Endpoint Builder service

Win+R ms-settingsrivacy-microphone
Turn everything on that you can.

p. Now go back & play the video without VPN and press the Audacity "Record"
Let it finish in 2:14 minutes & watch the pretty blue waveforms scroll.
Then press the square Audacity "Stop" button.

Note: I do NOT have a microphone, nor am I using the loopback cable;
but I do have a 1/8th-inch jack tying the motherboard (green) output
to a powered speaker on my desktop.

q. Save it.
Audacity:File Export Export as MP3 untitled.mp3
The good news is we apparently no longer need LAME/FFMPEG nowadays.

Name: untitled.mp3
Size: 3256048 bytes (3179 KiB)
SHA256: 18228637C3B052AE74556DAE78E9270AD01FA544F0A2A70DF9 0E5919943470B2
=== above is my ad hoc log just now attempting to do this ===
--
This is posted as an example of the fact that most tutorials don't work.
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Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:01:17 +0000 (UTC), Nicodemus wrote:

I have no microphone, was simply watching a youtube video and launched
Audacity and hit the record button, then stopped recording and then saved
as .mp3. On a Linum Mint desktop.


Hi Nicodemus,

I completely understand your experience, since it naturally "just works"
for you by default (and I had "thought" it would just work for me too!).

I too had figured it would only take a couple of minutes, instead of an
hour (although documentation always takes a lot longer than just doing it).

The problem is the "if then else" setup questions which need to be part of
any decent tutorial, and which were not part of any tutorial that I found.

What's not intuitive is that the latest versions of Windows 10, by default,
disable the microphone, which, given neither of us _have_ a microphone,
you'd "think" wouldn't matter.

Even those these later versions of Windows 10 also disable any app to have
access to that microphone - again, you'd "think" that wouldn't matter.

And yet it does matter.
o Win+R ms-settingsrivacy-microphone

Worse, other gotchas "may" matter, such as:
o Does the person have only an integrated sound card
o Do they need a 1/8th-inch M:M greenink loopback mic-to-speaker jumper
o Do we need to install LAME/FFMPEG anymore (the answer is no!)
etc.

Confusingly, some tutorials said to set the "Host" but they conflicted:
Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Host:
o [MME])
o [Windows WASAPI]
Where, I must confess, I don't even know what those letters mean!

In summary, a good tutorial needs to add a few "tests" up front:
a. Is the recording apparatus working (even sans microphone)?
b. Does the integrated sound card or PCI extension card record audio?
c. Is a male-to-male 1/8th-inch loopback jumper needed?

What would be nice is if the team could supply those tests.
o That way, the _next_ person has an easier time (which is always the goal)
--
Part of the high cost of freeware is in figuring out how to use it.
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Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONEof the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

Arlen Holder wrote:
Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10
where NONE of the extent how to articles actually
tell you what you actually really need to do!

Here's what happened...

1. I read this post about an hour or so ago on the a.c.f newsgroup:
o The nice thing about Audacity
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/S1IXPT3xk7g
Which says this one line:
"It can record the music from a youtube live stream."

2. Being infinitely curious about all tool functionality, I tried
Audacity but failed even after reading a dozen web tutorials.

snippage

Win+R ms-settingsrivacy-microphone
Turn everything on that you can.


"Allow desktop apps to access your microphone"

+-------+
| | X | "On"
+-------+

Audacity is a desktop app of the Win32 persuasion,
rather than a Metro one.

You also need that when doing things like WebRTC video
conferences with a web browser, as that is a desktop application.

*******

My Win10 20H2 was missing Stereo Mix.

What an adventure.

This recipe was spot on. And you have to be careful, if you slide in
even one extra reboot at the wrong time, you have to go back and
do the previous step again :-/ The name of the UAA item is changed,
it's "High Definition Audio Controller", driver incl. hdaudbus.sys
and that's how you know it's the right one. I had two Device Manager
entries and disabled/uninstalled both as described here.

https://www.techwalla.com/articles/m...r-wont-install

Some pictures.

https://i.postimg.cc/g0WdQhnf/audio-fix.gif

Name: 0008-64bit_Win7_Win8_Win81_Win10_R281.exe === Realtek driver used
Size: 217553063 bytes (207 MiB)
SHA1: 2404B101CA214BCB2E9970DB528180FBF888B30E

Paul
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Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Wed, 04 Nov 2020 10:57:54 -0500, Paul wrote:

"Allow desktop apps to access your microphone"
+-------+
| | X | "On"
+-------+


Hi Paul,

I appreciate your always purposefully helpful advice as not only do I learn
more from your help, but others who are lurking will also benefit greatly.

Thanks for clarifying that because the goal, always, is a tutorial that
others can use so they would be up & running in minutes, not hours.

I must admit that I don't even know what the "microphone" has to do with
it, 'cuz I don't even _have_ a microphone on my desktop!

Nonetheless, in my frustration, I turned on _everything_ I could:
o Win+R ms-settingsrivacy-microphone
Where it seems, from what you wrote, I only needed to turn on:
o Allow desktop apps to access your microphone = on

Ooops.

I just tested that setting and you need _another_ setting:
o Allow apps to access your microphone = On

What's confusing is that my desktop doesn't even have a mic!

Worse, the tutorials conflictingly said to set the "Host:" to:
o Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Host:
[MME])
[Windows WASAPI]
Where they don't even explain what the difference is.

googling for what the terms mean:
https://www.swee****er.com/sweetcare/articles/roland-difference-between-asio-wdm-mme-drivers/
o MME === Microsoft Multimedia Environment
o WASAPI === Windows Audio Session API
o WDM === Windows Driver Model
o ASIO === Audio Streaming Input / Output
o DirectSound === Direct Sound

Looking it up, it apparently doesn't matter all that much, so the tutorials
should just say that (instead of telling us to use one or the other).
https://superuser.com/questions/895525/mme-windows-directsound-or-wasapi
o MME: (multimedia events)
The Audacity default and the most compatible with all audio devices.
o Windows DirectSound:
More recent than MME with potentially less latency.
o Windows WASAPI:
WASAPI is particularly useful for "loopback" devices for recording
computer playback. 24-bit recording devices are supported.
Playback is emulated using this host.

It's not clear to me though _when_ you need "loopback recording":
https://docs.microsoft.com/de-de/windows/win32/coreaudio/loopback-recording

Audacity is a desktop app of the Win32 persuasion,
rather than a Metro one.


Ah. Thanks. I didn't know what a "desktop" app was, since, well, as you may
know, I have zero "metro" apps (I don't even have a Microsoft Account),
although I guess I have the "default" Microsoft apps which "may" be Metro.

You also need that when doing things like WebRTC video
conferences with a web browser, as that is a desktop application.


I'm not sure what "WebRTC" is, but if you're doing a conference with a web
browser, then you definitely _need_ an actual microphone, don't you?

Looking up WebRTC:
o https://bloggeek.me/what-is-webrtc/
"WebRTC enables voice communication to work inside HTML5 pages"

OK. But you _still_ need a "real" microphone for that, right?

What was unintuitive about "this" error was that you don't need a
microphone for Audacity to record the audio.

It's not intuitive you need the non-existent "microphone" to be enabled.

https://www.techwalla.com/articles/m...r-wont-install
Some pictures.
https://i.postimg.cc/g0WdQhnf/audio-fix.gif


Note that in that picture, _above_ of what you imaged is that there is yet
_another_ microphone setting which _also_ must be turned on (I think).
o https://i.postimg.cc/nhCyRNNW/audacity01.jpg

So you need to turn on _two_ settings for Audacity to record streams
o Win+R ms-settingsrivacy-microphone
1. Turn on "Allow apps to access your microphone" = On
2. Turn on "Allow desktop apps to access your microphone" = On
Even if you don't have a microphone (which I don't have, for example).

Name: 0008-64bit_Win7_Win8_Win81_Win10_R281.exe === Realtek driver used
Size: 217553063 bytes (207 MiB)
SHA1: 2404B101CA214BCB2E9970DB528180FBF888B30E


Hmm. That's interesting that you apparently had to update your sound card
driver in order to get Audacity to record from streaming audio (if I
understood you correctly).

If so, this is interesting that you had to install a RealTek driver.
o I didn't have to do that for Audacity to record streaming audio sans mic

But... I've updated my drivers as described in gory detail in this thread
o Tutorial: How to update a driver that Windows just doesn't want to update
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/a23fY9CM6rY

Specifically, my RealTek driver is reported by Dumo freeware as:
o Realtek High Definition Audio Realtek 6.0.8978.1, available 6.0.9018.1
o Realtek PCIe GbE Family Controller, Realtek 10.43.723.2020, available 10.45.928.2020
o Realtek USB 2.0 Card Reader, Realtek, 10.0.19041.31262, available 10.0.19041.31263

As shown in this Dumo freeware screenshot taken just now:
o https://i.postimg.cc/Y00X4TFS/audacity02.jpg
--
See also:
o What's the one free Windows 10 driver update tool you prefer most & why?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/-yDz26GC6zA

o How do I know when the Windows driver verifier program is running?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/NG4AzbPKsXs

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Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONEof the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

Arlen Holder wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2020 10:57:54 -0500, Paul wrote:

"Allow desktop apps to access your microphone"
+-------+
| | X | "On"
+-------+


Hi Paul,

I appreciate your always purposefully helpful advice as not only do I learn
more from your help, but others who are lurking will also benefit greatly.

Thanks for clarifying that because the goal, always, is a tutorial that
others can use so they would be up & running in minutes, not hours.

I must admit that I don't even know what the "microphone" has to do with
it, 'cuz I don't even _have_ a microphone on my desktop!

Nonetheless, in my frustration, I turned on _everything_ I could:
o Win+R ms-settingsrivacy-microphone
Where it seems, from what you wrote, I only needed to turn on:
o Allow desktop apps to access your microphone = on

Ooops.

I just tested that setting and you need _another_ setting:
o Allow apps to access your microphone = On

What's confusing is that my desktop doesn't even have a mic!


Microsoft uses terminology to suit the high-runner application.

The permission is more likely to be "use the ADC on the HDAudio",
meaning Mic_In, Line_In, Stereo_Mix. All of those are multiplexer
inputs feeding a stereo ADC on the HDaudio chip.

They could refine their permission to any degree they want,
but there aren't any other choices than "Microphone", and the
only way to make one control "fit" is if the control actually
owns the ADC instead. If Microsoft said "permission to use the ADC",
nobody is going to know what that is.

Paul


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Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Wed, 04 Nov 2020 18:45:56 -0500, Paul wrote:

Microsoft uses terminology to suit the high-runner application.


I googled what "high runner" meant, but found nothing; so I assume you mean
"high end" applications, such as those which might require the sound card.

The permission is more likely to be "use the ADC on the HDAudio",
meaning Mic_In, Line_In, Stereo_Mix. All of those are multiplexer
inputs feeding a stereo ADC on the HDaudio chip.


That is a good explanation, which is that Microsoft uses the term
"microphone" to mean the audio ADC input on the sound card.

They could refine their permission to any degree they want,
but there aren't any other choices than "Microphone", and the
only way to make one control "fit" is if the control actually
owns the ADC instead. If Microsoft said "permission to use the ADC",
nobody is going to know what that is.


I noticed that in some tutorials they mentioned that the "onboard"
circuitry wouldn't allow Audacity to capture the streaming audio, while in
others they didn't mention that complication.

Since I have both onboard and the Nvidia GeForce graphics card, I wasn't
sure which ADC is being used, where I 'think' I'm using the on-board ADC
because the only sound jacks 1/8th-inch photo plugs are on the motherboard
(the Nvidia GeForce 210 has digital output but no stereo jacks).

In summary, I'm not sure how useful converting a YouTube audio to MP3 is
(using Audacity) since it can be more easily downloaded as an M4A with
youtubedl.exe; but there "might" be a use (somehow) of Audacity being able
to save streaming audio from other applications (e.g., Zoom, WebRTC,
whatever).
--
It's nice to have Audacity in our arsenal but I'm not sure how useful it is
to capture streaming audio since we likely could capture it anyway.
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Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 21:36:53 +0000 (UTC), Nicodemus wrote:

For me it says ALSA, on a Linux Mint system.
It is a MBoard sound card.

Maybe it has more to do windows10 by default making it difficult to use
Audacity.


I think I agree with you that two things made it harder for me
1. The later Windows 10 versions turn off the ADC audio access by default
2. Not a single tutorial mentioned that this was happening

Luckily, the error message was seen by many others in the past
o So googling for the error helped me solve the problem

The good news is that by reporting that, I saved others the hassle.
o The bad news is I'm not sure how useful this capability is.

I mean, for YouTube, it's far easier to download the audio separately:
o youtube-dl.exe -f 140 https://youtu.be/HotLmqYFKKg

Where this capability of Audacity to convert streaming audio to an MP3 file
may come in handy might be for _other_ streaming audio needs, outside of
YouTube (since YouTube already has its very own well-honed downloader).

What _other_ uses (than YouTube) do folks see for this Audacity capability?
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On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 06:55:38 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

Note: I do NOT have a microphone, nor am I using the loopback cable;
but I do have a 1/8th-inch jack tying the motherboard (green) output
to a powered speaker on my desktop.


Why does Audacity only record streaming audio when a 1/8th-inch stereo
cable is connected to the speaker out (even if the other end of that cable
is hanging in mid air)?

I am NOT an audiophile... so this may be a dumb question...
o Can someone _explain_ why I need a cable (& nothing else) to record?

a. I have a desktop with no microphone
b. I have a green speaker-out 1/8th-inch stereo jack on the motherboard
c. I set up Audacity to record whatever is playing on the computer

If I leave the green speaker-out jack empty, Audacity won't record audio.
o Yet, if I plug in a male:male cable, Audacity records audio just fine.

Note that the _other_ end of that male:male cable goes nowhere!
o So Audacity needed _only_ "something" (anything) plugged into the jack.

Why?
o I'm sure there's a mechanical "switch" involved on the jack - but why?

Why does Audacity record audio _only_ when a cable is plugged in?
o Where that cable can be connected to headphones, speakers, or nothing!

This is the specific test I ran, but I don't think it matters:
1. I arbitrarily checked out the election news he
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/election-results-flux-progressive-groups-mobilize-n1246434
2. And then played this Twitter feed (which is NOT a YouTube video):
https://twitter.com/i/status/1323752027655229445
3. My results we
a. With no cable connected to the green jack, Audacity recorded nothing.
b. With a jumper cable connected to the green jack
(but connected to nothing else on the other end)
Audacity recorded the streaming audio just fine.

Why does Audacity only record streaming audio when a 1/8th-inch stereo
cable is connected to the speaker out (even if the other end of that cable
is hanging in mid air)?
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Arlen Holder wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 06:55:38 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

Note: I do NOT have a microphone, nor am I using the loopback cable;
but I do have a 1/8th-inch jack tying the motherboard (green) output
to a powered speaker on my desktop.


Why does Audacity only record streaming audio when a 1/8th-inch stereo
cable is connected to the speaker out (even if the other end of that cable
is hanging in mid air)?

I am NOT an audiophile... so this may be a dumb question...
o Can someone _explain_ why I need a cable (& nothing else) to record?


You need to select Stereo Mix as your sound source.

+-----+
Mic ------------| |
| | A D
LineIn ---------| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU
| |
Stereo_Mix +----| |
| +-----+
|
| From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut
} |
+-----------------------+

Stereo_Mix is a loopback signal. It takes a "copy"
of what is coming from LineOut and routes it back to the
input multiplexer. It's a feature in every HDAudio chip
(like the motherboard 48 pin square chip in the corner).

Thus, to record streaming audio, that audio going out
the analog speaker connector, you need to select
Stereo_Mix as seen in Audacity. Any mixer setting
on Record block (Record in Windows icon in corner),
the Stereo_Mix has to be turned up enough to hear it.

Remember that picture I made yesterday ? It had
a picture of Stereo_Mix in it for a reason. That
wasn't a lark on my part. The Stereo_Mix is part
of your request for recording audio from a Youtube
session, without using youtube-dl and "cheating"
to get it. We have to assume someday the RIAA will
cut off as much recording capability as possible,
and for a while at least, analog will work.

I installed the RealTek driver over top of the
Microsoft driver, in order to bring back the
Stereo_Mix in my Win10 20H2 setup.

*******

When we use that foot-long, 1/8" male to 1/8" male
cable for recording, it looks like this.

+-----+
Mic ------------| |
| | A D
LineIn +----| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU
| | |
| /-| |
| +-----+
|
| From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut
} |
+-----------------------+
1/8" male to 1/8" male cable

You can use a cable to take the place of Stereo_Mix,
and then you'd select LineIn as your recording
source in Audacity. This would be the case, if
for example, Windows 10 buggered your Stereo_Mix
capability with its clumsiness and stupidity.

Not everyone has one of those cables. They
might come with some TV tuner card perhaps.

Paul
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Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 03:12:47 -0500, Paul wrote:

You need to select Stereo Mix as your sound source.

+-----+
Mic ------------| |
| | A D
LineIn ---------| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU
| |
Stereo_Mix +----| |
| +-----+
|
| From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut
} |
+-----------------------+


Hi Paul,
Thanks for that diagram, where just studying it is instructive.
a. Mic in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU
b. Line in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU
c. Where LineOut & StereoMix are, somehow, intertwined

Somehow, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix",
(and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser),
but if I do NOT plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut,
then Audacity gets no signal to record.

However, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix",
(and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser),
and if I also plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut,
then Audacity DOES get a signal to record.

I guess what your diagram is showing is that StereoMix is disconnected from
LineOut unless a 1/8th-inch plug is used to "connect" them?

Is that right?

If so, then by putting the 1/8th-inch plug into the "LineOut" jack,
that connects the twitter feed coming from the DAC to the
"StereoMix" feed which then goes to the ADC to the CPU (???)
and then from there, to Audacity as its digital input (???)

Stereo_Mix is a loopback signal. It takes a "copy"
of what is coming from LineOut and routes it back to the
input multiplexer. It's a feature in every HDAudio chip
(like the motherboard 48 pin square chip in the corner).


I looked on my motherboard but don't see a 48-pin square chip in any of the
corners, but I think I'm getting your point that the "StereoMix" is a
loopback of LineOut to the ADC (and then to Audacity).

Thus, to record streaming audio, that audio going out
the analog speaker connector, you need to select
Stereo_Mix as seen in Audacity.


I did select "Stereo Mix" since all the tutorials suggested that
o But I didn't know why

The choices I have in Audacity a
o For Host [MME] (Microsoft Multimedia Environment)
Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Microsoft Sound Mapper]
o For Host [Windows DirectSound]
Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Primary Sound Capture Driver]
o For Host [WASAPI] (Windows Audio Session API)
Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Digital Output loopback] or [Speakers]

The good news is that they all have "Stereo Mix" as a choice.

Any mixer setting
on Record block (Record in Windows icon in corner),
the Stereo_Mix has to be turned up enough to hear it.


I don't understand that statement.

Remember that picture I made yesterday ? It had
a picture of Stereo_Mix in it for a reason. That
wasn't a lark on my part. The Stereo_Mix is part
of your request for recording audio from a Youtube
session, without using youtube-dl and "cheating"
to get it. We have to assume someday the RIAA will
cut off as much recording capability as possible,
and for a while at least, analog will work.


I think I get it that "stereo mix" is a loopback of the analog signal
_back_ into the ADC, is that what you're trying to teach me?

With the 1/8th-inch plug in place, is this sequence correct yet?
a. The digital stream comes in from the browser twitter feed
b. That digital stream goes to the DAC preamp output
c. That DAC preamp output goes to LineOut (to go to powered speakers)
d. If (and only if) a 1/8th plug is plugged into LineOut
e. Then that DAC preamp output also loops back to the ADC input
f. Where the ADC converts the analog lineout to a digital stream
g. Which is then fed to the "StereoMix" input of Audacity

I installed the RealTek driver over top of the
Microsoft driver, in order to bring back the
Stereo_Mix in my Win10 20H2 setup.


What does the "mix" mean in the term "Stereo Mix"?

I get what "stereo" means (i.e., 2 audio channels) but what's the "mix"?
a. Does the "mix" mean a mix of the two audio channels?
b. Or does the "mix" mean a mix of line out and line back in via loopback?

When we use that foot-long, 1/8" male to 1/8" male
cable for recording, it looks like this.

+-----+
Mic ------------| |
| | A D
LineIn +----| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU
| | |
| /-| |
| +-----+
|
| From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut
} |
+-----------------------+
1/8" male to 1/8" male cable

You can use a cable to take the place of Stereo_Mix,
and then you'd select LineIn as your recording
source in Audacity. This would be the case, if
for example, Windows 10 buggered your Stereo_Mix
capability with its clumsiness and stupidity.


Is that why they suggested that physical male-to-male loopback cable here?
https://davescomputertips.com/how-to-record-internet-audio-with-audacity/

Not everyone has one of those cables. They
might come with some TV tuner card perhaps.


I have an extensive cable box, like most people here.
o It even has RS232 cables in it, and SCSI cables too.

It had a 30-foot male-to-female 1/8th-inch cable & splitters
o In addition to a male-to-male 1/8th-inch cable

So I'm all set on cabling, if I need to use it
o But luckily, just plugging the plug alone into LineOut worked!


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Arlen Holder wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 03:12:47 -0500, Paul wrote:

You need to select Stereo Mix as your sound source.

+-----+
Mic ------------| |
| | A D
LineIn ---------| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU
| |
Stereo_Mix +----| |
| +-----+
|
| From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut
} |
+-----------------------+


Hi Paul,
Thanks for that diagram, where just studying it is instructive.
a. Mic in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU
b. Line in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU
c. Where LineOut & StereoMix are, somehow, intertwined

Somehow, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix",
(and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser),
but if I do NOT plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut,
then Audacity gets no signal to record.

However, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix",
(and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser),
and if I also plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut,
then Audacity DOES get a signal to record.

I guess what your diagram is showing is that StereoMix is disconnected from
LineOut unless a 1/8th-inch plug is used to "connect" them?

Is that right?

If so, then by putting the 1/8th-inch plug into the "LineOut" jack,
that connects the twitter feed coming from the DAC to the
"StereoMix" feed which then goes to the ADC to the CPU (???)
and then from there, to Audacity as its digital input (???)

Stereo_Mix is a loopback signal. It takes a "copy"
of what is coming from LineOut and routes it back to the
input multiplexer. It's a feature in every HDAudio chip
(like the motherboard 48 pin square chip in the corner).


I looked on my motherboard but don't see a 48-pin square chip in any of the
corners, but I think I'm getting your point that the "StereoMix" is a
loopback of LineOut to the ADC (and then to Audacity).

Thus, to record streaming audio, that audio going out
the analog speaker connector, you need to select
Stereo_Mix as seen in Audacity.


I did select "Stereo Mix" since all the tutorials suggested that
o But I didn't know why

The choices I have in Audacity a
o For Host [MME] (Microsoft Multimedia Environment)
Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Microsoft Sound Mapper]
o For Host [Windows DirectSound]
Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Primary Sound Capture Driver]
o For Host [WASAPI] (Windows Audio Session API)
Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Digital Output loopback] or [Speakers]

The good news is that they all have "Stereo Mix" as a choice.

Any mixer setting
on Record block (Record in Windows icon in corner),
the Stereo_Mix has to be turned up enough to hear it.


I don't understand that statement.

Remember that picture I made yesterday ? It had
a picture of Stereo_Mix in it for a reason. That
wasn't a lark on my part. The Stereo_Mix is part
of your request for recording audio from a Youtube
session, without using youtube-dl and "cheating"
to get it. We have to assume someday the RIAA will
cut off as much recording capability as possible,
and for a while at least, analog will work.


I think I get it that "stereo mix" is a loopback of the analog signal
_back_ into the ADC, is that what you're trying to teach me?

With the 1/8th-inch plug in place, is this sequence correct yet?
a. The digital stream comes in from the browser twitter feed
b. That digital stream goes to the DAC preamp output
c. That DAC preamp output goes to LineOut (to go to powered speakers)
d. If (and only if) a 1/8th plug is plugged into LineOut
e. Then that DAC preamp output also loops back to the ADC input
f. Where the ADC converts the analog lineout to a digital stream
g. Which is then fed to the "StereoMix" input of Audacity

I installed the RealTek driver over top of the
Microsoft driver, in order to bring back the
Stereo_Mix in my Win10 20H2 setup.


What does the "mix" mean in the term "Stereo Mix"?

I get what "stereo" means (i.e., 2 audio channels) but what's the "mix"?
a. Does the "mix" mean a mix of the two audio channels?
b. Or does the "mix" mean a mix of line out and line back in via loopback?

When we use that foot-long, 1/8" male to 1/8" male
cable for recording, it looks like this.

+-----+
Mic ------------| |
| | A D
LineIn +----| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU
| | |
| /-| |
| +-----+
|
| From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut
} |
+-----------------------+
1/8" male to 1/8" male cable

You can use a cable to take the place of Stereo_Mix,
and then you'd select LineIn as your recording
source in Audacity. This would be the case, if
for example, Windows 10 buggered your Stereo_Mix
capability with its clumsiness and stupidity.


Is that why they suggested that physical male-to-male loopback cable here?
https://davescomputertips.com/how-to-record-internet-audio-with-audacity/

Not everyone has one of those cables. They
might come with some TV tuner card perhaps.


I have an extensive cable box, like most people here.
o It even has RS232 cables in it, and SCSI cables too.

It had a 30-foot male-to-female 1/8th-inch cable & splitters
o In addition to a male-to-male 1/8th-inch cable

So I'm all set on cabling, if I need to use it
o But luckily, just plugging the plug alone into LineOut worked!


What's needed to record the output, is a path to get
back to the input side, and to the ADC.

The Stereo_Mix method, uses a wire which is inside
the HDAudio chip. Selecting that input, is a matter
of configuring software the right way, so it will work.

Every input has a level adjustment. You are adjusting
the level to avoid overloading while recording. You adjust
the gain, so the recording is loud enough.

Take for example, you play a DVD and get a LineOut output that way.
DVDs seem to be recorded really low, like -15dB or so.
There seems to be no way to drive a lot of signal that way.

When recording that DVD with Audacity, you need to adjust
the level, for a pleasant recording. Audacity has a VU meter,
so you can see the incoming voltage level. The VU Meter is
there, so you can judge whether you've still got headroom,
for a non-distorted recording.

Inputs have mutes. Or, a level slider can be set at zero.
The effect is zero volts on input and a very quiet recording,
if either of those happen.

*******

There is no particular reason for an interaction between
LineOut/LineIn and Stereo_Mix.

When you plug the 1/8" plug into a jack, the jack has a
side contact. The side contact closure is detected on the
HDAudio chip. It generates an event to the OS. The driver
presents a prompt "Did you plug something into LineIn?"
or similar.

One of the side effects of plugging in LineIn, is it can
be used to automatically switch the input mux in front
of the ADC, so that LineIn is used. And whatever your
previous choice was, is de-selected.

The loopback path only exists for one chip choice at a time.
To record through the RealTek Stereo_Mix, means the RealTek
LineOut has to be used and playing the content on the
analog computer speakers or similar. If the sound was
going to your TV set over HDMI for example, maybe the
NVidia video card HDAudio internal to the GPU is doing that.
And there would be no "virtual wire" to get to the
RealTek ADC/Mux.

As a consequence, you have to think carefully about where
that wire is.

There is at least one "virtual cable" driver, which is a
software technique for copying the Windows (output) mixer
stream and making a "pin" of it. Then, in Audacity, the "pin"
is offered as an "input choice". The virtual cable, in a
sense, bypasses DACs and ADCs and "just gets the job done".
This would be an alternative if someday soon, Microsoft
finds a way of permanently removing the driver ability
to get at the Stereo_Mix which is a hardware feature.
From a DMCA perspective, Microsoft could also choice to
block and prevent that "virtual cable" software from
running.

Summary: Plugging in 1/8" plugs to HDAudio jacks, has
as a side effect, the "side contact" signals to the
driver, that a change has occurred. And the driver
can use this as an excuse to switch input or output
settings, by signaling these facts to the OS handling
things. Without software to receive "plug events",
nothing would happen without software interference.

The Stereo_Mix doesn't need that. It needs selecting
Stereo_Mix in Audacity, to "wire up the input". But it
also needs a signal going through the output side
of that HDAudio chip, so that the signal can be copied.

Stereo_Mix and the black wire, are two of the same.
They're a path. The black wire also tickles the side
contact on two jacks. The Stereo_Mix does not, so to get
the Stereo_Mix to work requires two GUI actions
at a minimum. Something to set up the input side.
And some operation to get a signal onto the output,
so you can copy it with a feature put there in the
HDAudio chip for this.

Paul
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 12:04:18 -0500, Paul wrote:

What's needed to record the output, is a path to get
back to the input side, and to the ADC.

The Stereo_Mix method, uses a wire which is inside
the HDAudio chip. Selecting that input, is a matter
of configuring software the right way, so it will work.

Every input has a level adjustment. You are adjusting
the level to avoid overloading while recording. You adjust
the gain, so the recording is loud enough.

Take for example, you play a DVD and get a LineOut output that way.
DVDs seem to be recorded really low, like -15dB or so.
There seems to be no way to drive a lot of signal that way.

When recording that DVD with Audacity, you need to adjust
the level, for a pleasant recording. Audacity has a VU meter,
so you can see the incoming voltage level. The VU Meter is
there, so you can judge whether you've still got headroom,
for a non-distorted recording.

Inputs have mutes. Or, a level slider can be set at zero.
The effect is zero volts on input and a very quiet recording,
if either of those happen.

*******

There is no particular reason for an interaction between
LineOut/LineIn and Stereo_Mix.

When you plug the 1/8" plug into a jack, the jack has a
side contact. The side contact closure is detected on the
HDAudio chip. It generates an event to the OS. The driver
presents a prompt "Did you plug something into LineIn?"
or similar.

One of the side effects of plugging in LineIn, is it can
be used to automatically switch the input mux in front
of the ADC, so that LineIn is used. And whatever your
previous choice was, is de-selected.

The loopback path only exists for one chip choice at a time.
To record through the RealTek Stereo_Mix, means the RealTek
LineOut has to be used and playing the content on the
analog computer speakers or similar. If the sound was
going to your TV set over HDMI for example, maybe the
NVidia video card HDAudio internal to the GPU is doing that.
And there would be no "virtual wire" to get to the
RealTek ADC/Mux.

As a consequence, you have to think carefully about where
that wire is.

There is at least one "virtual cable" driver, which is a
software technique for copying the Windows (output) mixer
stream and making a "pin" of it. Then, in Audacity, the "pin"
is offered as an "input choice". The virtual cable, in a
sense, bypasses DACs and ADCs and "just gets the job done".
This would be an alternative if someday soon, Microsoft
finds a way of permanently removing the driver ability
to get at the Stereo_Mix which is a hardware feature.
From a DMCA perspective, Microsoft could also choice to
block and prevent that "virtual cable" software from
running.

Summary: Plugging in 1/8" plugs to HDAudio jacks, has
as a side effect, the "side contact" signals to the
driver, that a change has occurred. And the driver
can use this as an excuse to switch input or output
settings, by signaling these facts to the OS handling
things. Without software to receive "plug events",
nothing would happen without software interference.

The Stereo_Mix doesn't need that. It needs selecting
Stereo_Mix in Audacity, to "wire up the input". But it
also needs a signal going through the output side
of that HDAudio chip, so that the signal can be copied.

Stereo_Mix and the black wire, are two of the same.
They're a path. The black wire also tickles the side
contact on two jacks. The Stereo_Mix does not, so to get
the Stereo_Mix to work requires two GUI actions
at a minimum. Something to set up the input side.
And some operation to get a signal onto the output,
so you can copy it with a feature put there in the
HDAudio chip for this.


All the while I thought the tutorials were missing only _one_ conditional
"if then else" check, without knowing there are (at least) five of them!

I've read your response four or five times, like a kindergarten kid
watching a Disney movie, where each time I get a little bit more of what
you're trying to inform me (as all this "Stereo Mix" stuff is new to me).

This is perhaps the _simplest_ definition of "Stereo Mix" I've found:
"Stereo Mix allows you to record exactly what was being output to your
speakers, without going through any analog/digital conversion."
https://mediarealm.com.au/articles/stereo-mix-setup-windows-10/

But Lord knows I've been scouring the Internet for better definitions:
https://mediarealm.com.au/articles/stereo-mix-setup-windows-10/
https://winbuzzer.com/2020/04/25/how-to-record-windows-system-audio-with-stereo-mix-xcxwbt/
https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/39532/how-to-enable-stereo-mix-in-windows-7-to-record-audio/

*It seems 5 planets need to line up for a successful stereo mix recording.*

(1)
You need to turn on app & desktop app access to the "so-called" microphone:
o Win+R ms-settingsrivacy-microphone == Microphone access = on

(2)
Your audio driver must be able to enable/disable the Stereo Mix selection:
o Win+R devmgmt.msc Sound video & game controllers == Update driver
https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/category/pc-audio-codecs-high-definition-audio-codecs-software

(3)
You need to enable Stereo Mix (apparently, disabled by default in Win10):
o Win+R mmsys.cpl Recording Stereo Mix == Enabled

(4)
You need your recording software to be able to use Stereo Mix
o Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Recording == Stereo Mix

(5)
And, you need to connect the "loopback" of LineOut to enable copying:
o Plug in any 1/8-inch male plug into the lime green LineOut connector

It's in understanding that final (fifth) planet lining up that I keep
reading (and re-reading) your response, gleaning a bit more with each try.
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Arlen Holder wrote:

It's in understanding that final (fifth) planet lining up that I keep
reading (and re-reading) your response, gleaning a bit more with each try.


You need a diagram of an HDAudio chip, as additional context info.

I'll find one later and post a link. I've posted
one before, just can't find it. The ones in Analog Devices
datasheets are pretty clear, for example, and you'll be
able to see the Stereo Mix in there.

Paul
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 16:43:25 -0500, Paul wrote:

You need a diagram of an HDAudio chip, as additional context info.

I'll find one later and post a link. I've posted
one before, just can't find it. The ones in Analog Devices
datasheets are pretty clear, for example, and you'll be
able to see the Stereo Mix in there.


Hi Paul,
Thanks for the help and advice. You don't have to find the diagram as I
believe you. This Stereo Mix stuff was simply new to me.

But I'm no audiophile.
o I just wanted to write a tutorial for others to capture streaming audio.

That tutorial would _start_ with the five setup steps on newer Windows 10:
1. We need to turn on app & desktop app access to the "microphone"
o Win+R ms-settingsrivacy-microphone == Microphone access = on/on

2. We need to ensure the audio driver can enable a "Stereo Mix" option
o Win+R devmgmt.msc Sound video & game controllers == Update driver

3. We then need to enable Stereo Mix in that Windows 10 audio driver:
o Win+R mmsys.cpl Recording Stereo Mix == Enabled
https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/category/pc-audio-codecs-high-definition-audio-codecs-software

4. We need to install Audacity & set the recording to "Stereo Mix"
o Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Recording == Stereo Mix

5. We need to also enable "loopback", which in my case is mechanical:
o Plug in any 1/8-inch male plug into the lime green LineOut connector

6. Then we can stream audio, capture it, and save it to an MP3 file.
o The 8 Best Free Online Music Streaming Services With No Limitations
https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/7-online-music-streaming-services-restrictions/
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On 6/11/2020 8:46 am, Arlen Holder wrote:

Damn troll, just decided to block you on this group too and you were using 4 different return-to
addresses? Trolls are as trolls do.

--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.


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Paul wrote:
Arlen Holder wrote:

It's in understanding that final (fifth) planet lining up that I keep
reading (and re-reading) your response, gleaning a bit more with each
try.


You need a diagram of an HDAudio chip, as additional context info.

I'll find one later and post a link. I've posted
one before, just can't find it. The ones in Analog Devices
datasheets are pretty clear, for example, and you'll be
able to see the Stereo Mix in there.

Paul


What's interesting (to me), is the Stereo Mix is really a mixer,
but the software doesn't allow it to be controlled that way.
Stereo Mix is much more than just LineOut.

https://i.postimg.cc/dVDTpv8G/AD1988B.gif

Use "Download original image" to see the full scale version.

The picture was twice that scale, but the site wouldn't
accept it, so I had to scale it down a bit.

The AD1988B claims to use 32-bit math (to avoid overflow),
which tells me that parts of that diagram are digital and
not analog as the "functional" diagram might claim. The
mixer is doing the summation of 8 channels of 24-bit each,
so this would be 27-bits to avoid overflow. They don't say
whether it's fixed point or float, but fixed point
would be easier for them.

The diagram is kooky, compared to how the GUI on the
computer appears and works. It could for example,
be mixing 7.1 down to stereo, but with a transformation
or what ? Perhaps the driver just says "screw it" and
passes only LineOut through.

Paul
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 05:55:52 -0500, Paul wrote:

What's interesting (to me), is the Stereo Mix is really a mixer,
but the software doesn't allow it to be controlled that way.
Stereo Mix is much more than just LineOut.
https://i.postimg.cc/dVDTpv8G/AD1988B.gif
Use "Download original image" to see the full scale version.


Hi Paul,

Thanks for helping out so all can benefit from what you've learned, where I
just downloaded that ADI "AD1988A/AD1988B Functional Block Diagram":
o https://i.postimg.cc/dVDTpv8G/AD1988B.gif
Name: AD1988B.gif
Size: 79285 bytes (77 KiB)
SHA256: A0EA9DE570BBF49A89882E3B79963C39BC396D68D9F8B73CF9 E00DF2E7EE49C2

The picture was twice that scale, but the site wouldn't
accept it, so I had to scale it down a bit.


These are full-sized 20-page PDFs which are easier to search for keywords:
o https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf
Name: AD1988A_1988B.pdf
Size: 1434129 bytes (1400 KiB)
SHA256: 899F6E7A84FF62BC6A39A501FA20446C3D4F2B4FFDF9E87741 E21019B9ABC53A

o https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/obsolete-data-sheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf
Name: AD1988A_1988Ba.pdf
Size: 2092821 bytes (2043 KiB)
SHA256: 4010B5C24B910D75CC5835AC3C11D45EB5A3A55357F1FE10EB 3C82911B0191DA

The AD1988B claims to use 32-bit math (to avoid overflow),
which tells me that parts of that diagram are digital and
not analog as the "functional" diagram might claim. The
mixer is doing the summation of 8 channels of 24-bit each,
so this would be 27-bits to avoid overflow. They don't say
whether it's fixed point or float, but fixed point
would be easier for them.

The diagram is kooky, compared to how the GUI on the
computer appears and works. It could for example,
be mixing 7.1 down to stereo, but with a transformation
or what ? Perhaps the driver just says "screw it" and
passes only LineOut through.


I will take a look at the diagrams, but wanted you to have them also.

Notice the "Node ID 2D"
o 2D, Stereo Mix-Down, Audio mixer, Mixes the stereo L/R channels to drive MONO_OUT

But before I look, can you explain _why_ you picked _this_ particular chip?
--
FEATURES
o Ten 192 kHz DACs
o Five independent stereo DAC pairs
o 7.1 surround sound plus independent headphone
o Independent 8 kHz, 11.025 kHz, 16 kHz, 22.05 kHz, 32 kHz,
o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz
o sample rates
o Selectable stereo mixer on outputs
o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit PCM resolution
o Six 192 kHz ADCs
o Three independent stereo ADC pairs
o Simultaneous record of up to three stereo channels
o Support for quad microphone arrays plus independent
o capture channel
o Independent 8 kHz, 11.025 kHz, 16 kHz, 22.05 kHz, 32 kHz,
o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz
o sample rates
o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit resolution
o S/PDIF output
o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz
o sample rates
o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit data widths
o PCM, WMA/PRO, Dolby®, AC3, and DTS® formats
o Digital PCM gain control
o Digital PCM ADC/stream mixer
o S/PDIF input
o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz
o sample rates
o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit data widths
o PCM, WMA/PRO, Dolby, AC3, and DTS formats
o Digital PCM gain control
o Auto synchronizes to source High quality stereo CD input with GND sense
o MONO_OUT pin for internal speakers or telephony
o Retasking jack support

ENHANCED FEATURES
o Three stereo headphone amps
o AD1988A: Windows Vista Operating System Premium Logo
o compliant
o 95 dB outputs
o 90 dB audio inputs
o AD1988B: Windows Vista Premium Logo compliant and
o Dolby Master Studio compliant
o 101 dB outputs 92 dB audio inputs
o Internal 32-bit arithmetic for greater accuracy Impedance and presence detection on all jacks
o Analog PCBEEP and digital synthesis BEEP
o C/LFE channel swap
o Two general-purpose digital I/O (GPIO) pins
o 3.3 V analog and digital supplies
o Reduced support components
o Advanced power management modes
o 48-pin LQFP and LFCSP_VQ package options, Pb-free
o Supports Andrea Active Noise Reduction headphones
o Hardware volume control
o Built-in microphone gain amps
o Adjustable microphone bias pins
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On Fri, 6 Nov 2020 15:01:46 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

I will take a look at the diagrams, but wanted you to have them also.

Notice the "Node ID 2D"
o 2D, Stereo Mix-Down, Audio mixer, Mixes the stereo L/R channels to drive MONO_OUT

But before I look, can you explain _why_ you picked _this_ particular chip?


Hi Paul,

In summary, can you point to the chip you think is that 48-pin ADI chip?
o https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg

I'm not sure my motherboard even _has_ that specific ADI chip.
o But my motherboard does have three 48-pin square chips (two in the back).

My old tired eyes can't "read" the writing on the 48-pin chips on the MB.
o Nor does a photo from my cellphone show the writing clear enough to read

Nor can I find an owners manual for my motherboard
o HP system name = NY549AA-ABA p6230y Aloe
o Manufacturers name = Foxconn H-RS880-uATX 1.01

I'm "assuming" you're assuming I have that 48-pin ADI chip on the
motherboard, where here's all I can find (so far) for a manual:

How to find a diagram of your motherboard
o Win+R msinfo32
System Model: NY549AA-ABA p6230y
BaseBoard Manufacturer: FOXCONN
BaseBoard Product: ALOE
BaseBoard Version: 1.01
Processor: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 810 Processor, 2600 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 4
Logical Processor(s)
BIOS Version/Date: American Megatrends Inc. 5.02, 8/31/2009

Google results:
o Motherboard
https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01925486
https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg
HP/Compaq name = Aloe
Foxconn name = H-RS880-uATX 1.01
o BIOS https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01997718/
o Manuals https://www.manualslib.com/brand/foxconn/motherboard.html
o This says no user manual exists:
https://digitalballs.weebly.com/h-rs880-uatx-manual.html
https://digitalballs.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/4/8/124848319/603470659.jpg
o Specs https://www.pc-specs.com/mobo/HP/HP_H-RS880-uATX_(Aloe)/1404
o Benchmark https://browser.geekbench.com/geekbench2/185041
o MobileSpecs
https://mobilespecs.net/motherboard/Foxconn/Foxconn_N-Alvorix-RS880-uATX.html
o GAME
https://www.game-debate.com/motherboard/index.php?mot_id=1404&motherboard=HP%20H-RS880-uATX%20(Aloe)
o Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/HP-Aloe-537376-001-H-RS880-uATX-Motherboard/dp/B00TUXP846
o Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/HP-HPE-555KR-H-RS880-UATX-AloeMotherboard-537376-001/dp/B005UF07ZI

In summary, can you point to the chip you think is that 48-pin ADI chip?
o https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg
--
Probably we should author a tutorial on how to find a motherboard manual.
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Arlen Holder wrote:


In summary, can you point to the chip you think is that 48-pin ADI chip?
o https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg


I picked that particular chip because it's on *my* motherboard :-)

I would have an incentive to collect the sheet for it. I don't think
I have a very large collection of datasheets. Probably a few AC'97 ones
over the years.

One other thing that's interesting, is some chips have "muxes" for
Stereo_Mix but that one has a "summer", which is an entirely
different kettle of fish.

*******

c02431965.jpg

It took me roughly 3 seconds to spot it. Look for the green
dot in the lower left corner. A little bit down and to the right
a bit from that reference point, you'll find a 48 pin chip. The
chip will be square, and have 4 x 12 pins for a total of 48.
I can't see any detail though - look for a crab icon, the RealTek
icon, because they make a lot of these, all different classes
of audio. Everything from stereo to 7.1 .

HDAudio or AC'97 chips, usually have a pile of small electrolytics
used for AC coupling of signals.

There should also be a separate DC regulator, a linear, that
provides power to the chip. But it's pretty hard to clean
digital noise off a rail using a linear.

Sometimes in the PCB, you can see attempts to build
moats or put guard grounds around some of the analog
wiring. Or stick guards around the Ethernet wires,
so there is less coupling into the analog. There have been
lots of motherboards where total ignorance prevailed near
the 48 pin CODEC chip, and all sorts of mouse noises,
Ethernet noises and so on, ended up in the computer speakers.
It took quite a while for some of the motherboard companies
to become serious about the audio corner of the board.
I mean, in some cases, the interference was so bad, it
was obvious nobody ever lab-tested the audio. Or they
would not have let it ship. Motherboards are designed
three times total, with the third spin required
to be "patch wire free". Plenty of time to do an audio
test.

Paul
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 14:11:00 -0500, Paul wrote:

I picked that particular chip because it's on *my* motherboard :-)


Oh. slaps head I was wondering why you had picked that chip!
o What I'm wondering is how the hell you knew it would be 48 pins square?

My Foxconn HRS880u-ATX has a bunch of 48-pin square 12x12 chips
o Where I marked each of them in a different color for you here
https://i.postimg.cc/JhhWnjTP/Foxconn-HRS880u-ATX.jpg

My orange U10 chip you fingered definitely says Realtek on it:
o But I think that's the Ethernet controller RTL911DL but I'm not sure
https://i.postimg.cc/ZKrmDbBF/48pinu10.jpg

Which, I think, may be this PCI Ethernet Controller chip:
http://www.image.micros.com.pl/_dane_techniczne_auto/uirtl8111dl.pdf

I would have an incentive to collect the sheet for it. I don't think
I have a very large collection of datasheets. Probably a few AC'97 ones
over the years.

One other thing that's interesting, is some chips have "muxes" for
Stereo_Mix but that one has a "summer", which is an entirely
different kettle of fish.

*******

c02431965.jpg

It took me roughly 3 seconds to spot it. Look for the green
dot in the lower left corner. A little bit down and to the right
a bit from that reference point, you'll find a 48 pin chip. The
chip will be square, and have 4 x 12 pins for a total of 48.
I can't see any detail though - look for a crab icon, the RealTek
icon, because they make a lot of these, all different classes
of audio. Everything from stereo to 7.1 .


I found the crab icon on my blue 48-pin 12x12 chip in the very corner.
o I think the number is ALC888S (with also date codes 97U19S1 G932C2).
https://i.postimg.cc/44HsVbX0/48pinu6.jpg

Which I think may be this sound controller chip:
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf


HDAudio or AC'97 chips, usually have a pile of small electrolytics
used for AC coupling of signals.

There should also be a separate DC regulator, a linear, that
provides power to the chip. But it's pretty hard to clean
digital noise off a rail using a linear.

Sometimes in the PCB, you can see attempts to build
moats or put guard grounds around some of the analog
wiring. Or stick guards around the Ethernet wires,
so there is less coupling into the analog. There have been
lots of motherboards where total ignorance prevailed near
the 48 pin CODEC chip, and all sorts of mouse noises,
Ethernet noises and so on, ended up in the computer speakers.
It took quite a while for some of the motherboard companies
to become serious about the audio corner of the board.
I mean, in some cases, the interference was so bad, it
was obvious nobody ever lab-tested the audio. Or they
would not have let it ship. Motherboards are designed
three times total, with the third spin required
to be "patch wire free". Plenty of time to do an audio
test.

Paul


What I'm wondering is how the hell you knew it would be 48 pins square?


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Arlen Holder wrote:


What I'm wondering is how the hell you knew it would be 48 pins square?


Well, it's a standard.

That makes it easy :-) Don't have to be Kreskin.

Intel issued HDAudio_03.pdf (2004), that's the spec.

"Industry standard 48-pin QFP package and pinout for codec." (Page 14)

Paul
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 19:41:00 -0500, Paul wrote:

Well, it's a standard.
That makes it easy :-) Don't have to be Kreskin.
Intel issued HDAudio_03.pdf (2004), that's the spec.
"Industry standard 48-pin QFP package and pinout for codec." (Page 14)
Paul


Way back when, I once went to a Kreskin event, where I went up on stage.
o Then I left on my own accord 'cuz it was clear the games he was playing.

It turns out those who _want_ to _stay_ on stage will play his game...
o Those who don't play his game simply leave the stage (or don't go up).

Anyway, I get it now that the 48-pin pinout is the Intel specification.
o Where your sound controller is apparently an ADI AD1988A chip.
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf

While mine is definitely the Realtek ALC888S sound controller chip:
o https://i.postimg.cc/44HsVbX0/48pinu6.jpg
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf
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Arlen Holder wrote:
On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 19:41:00 -0500, Paul wrote:

Well, it's a standard.
That makes it easy :-) Don't have to be Kreskin.
Intel issued HDAudio_03.pdf (2004), that's the spec.
"Industry standard 48-pin QFP package and pinout for codec." (Page 14)
Paul


Way back when, I once went to a Kreskin event, where I went up on stage.
o Then I left on my own accord 'cuz it was clear the games he was playing.

It turns out those who _want_ to _stay_ on stage will play his game...
o Those who don't play his game simply leave the stage (or don't go up).

Anyway, I get it now that the 48-pin pinout is the Intel specification.
o Where your sound controller is apparently an ADI AD1988A chip.
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf

While mine is definitely the Realtek ALC888S sound controller chip:
o https://i.postimg.cc/44HsVbX0/48pinu6.jpg
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf


They went to a lot of trouble to get a Stereo_Mix in there.

Paul
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 20:22:52 -0500, Paul wrote:

o Where your sound controller is apparently an ADI AD1988A chip.
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf

While mine is definitely the Realtek ALC888S sound controller chip:
o https://i.postimg.cc/44HsVbX0/48pinu6.jpg
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf


They went to a lot of trouble to get a Stereo_Mix in there.


I do not understand that statement, where I'm not sure who "they" is,
and I'm not sure how you know what they did to get "Stereo Mix" in.

Assuming "they" is "Realtek", & looking at the Realtek ALC888S datasheet
https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf
(which I had to convert with ghostscript/ghostview in order to copy)
I see they never mentioned "stereo mix", per se, but did mention a "mixer"
"Two stereo ADCs support 16/20-bit PCM format, one for stereo microphone,
one for legacy mixer recording"
"Supports legacy analog mixer architecture"

And they mention the sound output jacks on my pc on the back & front:
"It provides ten DAC channels that simultaneously support 7.1 sound
playback, plus independent stereo sound output (multiple streaming)
through the front panel stereo outputs."

With respect to the analog pins, it says:
"All analog IO are input and output capable, and headphone amplifiers
are also integrated at each analog output."
"All analog jacks are stereo input and output re-tasking
for analog plug & play"

In summary, Realtek never once mentioned "Stereo Mix" in that datasheet,
but they do mention that the ALC888S supports a "legacy analog mixer".
--
See conversion tutorial below to enable copy & paste above:
o Tutorial for installing ghostscript/ghostview/pstoedit to remove PDF copy & password protection , downconvert, rotate pages, change paper sizes, fix corruption, extract text, etc.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/O7l0utRdJYk
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