Hi RATs!

Engineering is just work.

Race cars or econoboxes.

I did it for some decades. Project envy is just the way life goes

Cars and toasters. Same same. Only our fantasies provide the romance ...

and a few billion dollars in advertising

"Whatever gets you through the night..."

Happy Ears!
Al


Alan J. Marcy
Phoenix, AZ

PWC/mystic/Earhead

Speaking of cars...

My philosophy has always been to keep everything as simple as possible, and
to build things meant to last a long time. Furthermore build things that can
be fixed once they break or wear down.

It only the consumers would oppose to the "black boxes" they would not be
there! People are paying crazy amounts for a piece of electronics less
complicated than a cell phone, plus the dissatisfaction of not really being
able to repair or service anything yourself. Just go to the authorized
garage and get ripped off.

If I compare my 40 years old Mercedes with modern cars, I don't really see
any major improvements, except maybe airbag and ABS. Anyway airbags require
expensive service, in time, and I know that I can "ABS" manually when
needed.
The 40 years old Mercedes has deformation zones, (optional) seat belts, very
good brakes, gives a comfortable ride, reasonable handling and the fuel
economy is around 9-12 km/l

The complete wiring diagram can be seen on 1 A4/letter sheet. There are no
strange subassemblies that cannot be fixed, and there are only few things I
cannot fix myself.

The newest car I have, is a VW bus from 97, it has already cost me a fortune
because of an intermittent fault in the electric system, engine would
suddenly stall for a second. At high speeds it was quite a chocking
experience.

I have sworn that I will never buy anything newer than my 89 Audi.........
Well, of course, I bought a VW Lupo 3L for my wife, but only because woman
and old cars are not very compatible, and of course because she has a long
way to work, the 33 km per litre of diesel, is quite a saving. What I also
like about The Lupo, is that it is made from aluminium and that all the high
tech stuff in it, has a real purpose. Crossing my fingers for what will
happen when it gets older....

Karsten



"jim" wrote in message
...


If all this stuff seems wacky, let me just list
a few of the measures I know of that were
taken to improve fuel economy:

1. Reduce spring tension on lip type oil seals
2. Stronger brake pad hardware (to lessen pad
drag against the rotor)
3. Elimination of tapered roller bearings in favor
of ball or roller bearings; this reduces turning
torque requirements by eliminating the drag caused
by the preload of a tapered bearing.
4. Window glass thickness reduced.
5. Higher efficiency oil pumps and oil pressure
controls inside automatic transmissions
6. Reduction in cross sectional thickness of
piston rings (lower scraping friction)

At Toyota we also had:

7. Multipiece hollow crankshafts
8. Multipiece hollow camshafts

After going through all that, I think it's
safe to say that changing accessory
drive configurations wouldn't be done
unless there were significant improvements
in almost every area. Quality, NVH (noise,
vibration, harshness), fuel economy, vehicle
weight, acceleration, cost (yes, it has to be
affordable), and many other factors apply.

All I'm trying to say is there is a lot more
than meets the eye to most of the design
decisions made in vehicle design. Cost is
only one of them, and quality (at least where
I came from) ranked very high.

Jim McShane

Hi, Jim,
I respect your commitment to quality and technical improvement. Your 'get
it right' attitude is very thin on the ground here in the UK. Your last
paragraph is the whole crux of the thing. We can all speak from personal
experience or experience within the industry...
There are many different ways of looking at things....... you need to
examine them all..

Stronger brake pad hardware...
You view it as a fuel economy measure. An engineering solution. A step
forward. I see it as a move to further extend service intervals.. I'm
down
here at Base Camp.
If your market sector competitor is on 10,000 mile service intervals,
pushing this out to 15000 or 20000 miles is a tool the
salesman can use in the showroom. 'Yessir, I know the Dodge is $500
cheaper but this Toyota costs $700 a year less to maintain..?? ... hey,
we're talking quality here !!!! You got the picture ?? Does the Dodge
really measure up ?? You look an intelligent guy to me...


Years ago contact points and plug life fixed the service intervals. Now,
it
is how long modern lubricants and friction materials last.

Taper rollers ?? Rollers are better able to handle radial loads than
ball
races. Roller bearings are worthless at handling axial loads. There is
substantial axial loading whilst cornering, so the taper roller is the
ideal
solution. It's been around for 100 years... Toyota spotted something the
rest of us have missed ?
No.. A complete hub with ball races and a spacer between them can be
airwrenched up on the line by a monkey, or a robot. A taper roller
requires
adjustment.. Once adjusted, it has nil preload, does a far better job,
and
has no more frictional drag than ball races
A monkey can't adjust it properly though.... a robot could get it wrong
2.25% of the time.. Delete it !!!!! We go with the ball races ...

Thinner window glass ??? Find me a safety or strength reason why this is
a
good idea compared to saving a few cents ??

Lubrication improvement in autotrans boxes ?? Hey, were now out at 20,000
mile service intervals. The transmission could fail before the brake
friction materials or the door glass.. Increase circulation by 10% and
go
for a fully synthetic lubricant.

Go back to first paragraph. Jim, I respect you as a dedicated engineer.
I
am. I have mechanical engineering certificates to prove it. I learnt how
you
did it properly, then I walked into industry and met two people. One was
an
accountant who said it cost too much. The other was a production engineer
who said it took too long.... Could I adjust my engineering to suit ??

Engineering is alive and well in the US and the UK.. It's at AC, Aston
Martin, Cosworth, Lotus, Penske, etc, etc...

Toyota, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Rover, Nissan just make cars..

regards
jim

If all this stuff seems wacky, let me just list
a few of the measures I know of that were
taken to improve fuel economy:

1. Reduce spring tension on lip type oil seals
2. Stronger brake pad hardware (to lessen pad
drag against the rotor)
3. Elimination of tapered roller bearings in favor
of ball or roller bearings; this reduces turning
torque requirements by eliminating the drag caused
by the preload of a tapered bearing.
4. Window glass thickness reduced.
5. Higher efficiency oil pumps and oil pressure
controls inside automatic transmissions
6. Reduction in cross sectional thickness of
piston rings (lower scraping friction)

At Toyota we also had:

7. Multipiece hollow crankshafts
8. Multipiece hollow camshafts

After going through all that, I think it's
safe to say that changing accessory
drive configurations wouldn't be done
unless there were significant improvements
in almost every area. Quality, NVH (noise,
vibration, harshness), fuel economy, vehicle
weight, acceleration, cost (yes, it has to be
affordable), and many other factors apply.

All I'm trying to say is there is a lot more
than meets the eye to most of the design
decisions made in vehicle design. Cost is
only one of them, and quality (at least where
I came from) ranked very high.

Jim McShane

Hi, Jim,
I respect your commitment to quality and technical improvement. Your 'get
it right' attitude is very thin on the ground here in the UK. Your last
paragraph is the whole crux of the thing. We can all speak from personal
experience or experience within the industry...
There are many different ways of looking at things....... you need to
examine them all..

Stronger brake pad hardware...
You view it as a fuel economy measure. An engineering solution. A step
forward. I see it as a move to further extend service intervals.. I'm down
here at Base Camp.
If your market sector competitor is on 10,000 mile service intervals,
pushing this out to 15000 or 20000 miles is a tool the
salesman can use in the showroom. 'Yessir, I know the Dodge is $500
cheaper but this Toyota costs $700 a year less to maintain..?? ... hey,
we're talking quality here !!!! You got the picture ?? Does the Dodge
really measure up ?? You look an intelligent guy to me...


Years ago contact points and plug life fixed the service intervals. Now, it
is how long modern lubricants and friction materials last.

Taper rollers ?? Rollers are better able to handle radial loads than ball
races. Roller bearings are worthless at handling axial loads. There is
substantial axial loading whilst cornering, so the taper roller is the ideal
solution. It's been around for 100 years... Toyota spotted something the
rest of us have missed ?
No.. A complete hub with ball races and a spacer between them can be
airwrenched up on the line by a monkey, or a robot. A taper roller requires
adjustment.. Once adjusted, it has nil preload, does a far better job, and
has no more frictional drag than ball races
A monkey can't adjust it properly though.... a robot could get it wrong
2.25% of the time.. Delete it !!!!! We go with the ball races ...

Thinner window glass ??? Find me a safety or strength reason why this is a
good idea compared to saving a few cents ??

Lubrication improvement in autotrans boxes ?? Hey, were now out at 20,000
mile service intervals. The transmission could fail before the brake
friction materials or the door glass.. Increase circulation by 10% and go
for a fully synthetic lubricant.

Go back to first paragraph. Jim, I respect you as a dedicated engineer. I
am. I have mechanical engineering certificates to prove it. I learnt how you
did it properly, then I walked into industry and met two people. One was an
accountant who said it cost too much. The other was a production engineer
who said it took too long.... Could I adjust my engineering to suit ??

Engineering is alive and well in the US and the UK.. It's at AC, Aston
Martin, Cosworth, Lotus, Penske, etc, etc...

Toyota, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Rover, Nissan just make cars..

regards
jim