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#1
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Grateful Dead Vocal mics - strange arrangement
I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked
like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film. I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only singling directly into the TOP mic. |
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#2
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My Last Sigh wrote:
I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film. I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only singling directly into the TOP mic. http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en -- ha |
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#3
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I found my own answer ; Diferential:
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/6842/0 "My Last Sigh" wrote in message ... I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film. I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only singling directly into the TOP mic. |
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#4
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On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:21:12 -0700, "My Last Sigh"
wrote: I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film. I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only singling directly into the TOP mic. See post a couple of days ago entitled "such a thing as "noise canceling loudspeaker"." They are noise canceling mikes for the wall of sound. Julian |
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#6
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In article ,
"My Last Sigh" wrote: I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film. I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only singling directly into the TOP mic. Probably you were watching the Grateful Dead Movie, which was filmed in '76 just before their "retirement." They were back by 78 but Jerry was now on the road to being a junkie and Phil Lesh an alcoholic coke head, according to Phil's new book, "Searching for the Sound." A better application for the old 'chestnut' "Idle hands are the devil's tools," or something like that, cannot be found. As for the movie, it's great and readily available. I think it was just remastered. Bob V |
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#7
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In article ,
My Last Sigh wrote: I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film. I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only singling directly into the TOP mic. Yes, this was part of the Wall of Sound system, which was just discussed here a week ago. Basically the speaker system is behind the band producing something that approximates a plane wave, and the microphones are dual omnis wired out of phase, so anything directly in front of them is cancelled out. An early proof of concept used B&K lab mikes but the band finally settled on something with a pair of Panasonic capsules. The comb filtering from the two mikes resulted in some very strange-sounding vocals (not that Donna's voice wasn't pretty strange to begin with), and of course all the instruments had to be taken direct or through amps miked offstage in big padded lockers. It was an interesting and innovative way to eliminate the need for monitors while still keeping feedback down. The only problem is that it sounded godawful. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#8
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... Yes, this was part of the Wall of Sound system, which was just discussed here a week ago. Basically the speaker system is behind the band producing something that approximates a plane wave, and the microphones are dual omnis wired out of phase, so anything directly in front of them is cancelled out. An early proof of concept used B&K lab mikes but the band finally settled on something with a pair of Panasonic capsules. The comb filtering from the two mikes resulted in some very strange-sounding vocals (not that Donna's voice wasn't pretty strange to begin with), and of course all the instruments had to be taken direct or through amps miked offstage in big padded lockers. ??? In the description of the system I saw, the guitars and bass ran through Alembic preamps (basically the preamp section of a Fender Twin, put into a 1RU box) into McIntosh power amps. Peace, Paul |
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#9
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In article ,
Bob Vandiver wrote: In article , "My Last Sigh" wrote: I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film. I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only singling directly into the TOP mic. Probably you were watching the Grateful Dead Movie, which was filmed in '76 just before their "retirement." They were back by 78 but Jerry was now on the road to being a junkie and Phil Lesh an alcoholic coke head, according to Phil's new book, "Searching for the Sound." A better application for the old 'chestnut' "Idle hands are the devil's tools," or something like that, cannot be found. As for the movie, it's great and readily available. I think it was just remastered. Bob V It was filmed in 1974 and the film took 3 years to see the light of day. It was not only remastered, but extensively restored and remixed which made it sound incredibly better (although back in '77 when it came out, it was one of the first quad movies and sounded pretty damn cool to my 16 year old ears at the Coolidge Corner Theater). The mastering for both the movie and accompanying soundtrack were done here by Boulder's own David Glasser at Airshow. It's worth seeing and the extra features are also worth checking out. Edwin -- http://www.theetherealplane.com |
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#10
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In article ,
Edwin Hurwitz wrote: In article , Bob Vandiver wrote: In article , "My Last Sigh" wrote: I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film. I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only singling directly into the TOP mic. Probably you were watching the Grateful Dead Movie, which was filmed in '76 just before their "retirement." They were back by 78 but Jerry was now on the road to being a junkie and Phil Lesh an alcoholic coke head, according to Phil's new book, "Searching for the Sound." A better application for the old 'chestnut' "Idle hands are the devil's tools," or something like that, cannot be found. As for the movie, it's great and readily available. I think it was just remastered. Bob V It was filmed in 1974 and the film took 3 years to see the light of day. It was not only remastered, but extensively restored and remixed which made it sound incredibly better (although back in '77 when it came out, it was one of the first quad movies and sounded pretty damn cool to my 16 year old ears at the Coolidge Corner Theater). The mastering for both the movie and accompanying soundtrack were done here by Boulder's own David Glasser at Airshow. It's worth seeing and the extra features are also worth checking out. Edwin Nope, it was done in '76 and was 3 or so nights at Winterland (I think). The concerts were filmed because it was thought that the Dead were definitely retiring after those shows. They were still going very strong when I saw them in '74. The film did take a while to produce (not to mention cash). Jerry produced it and advocated for the animation sequence that opened the film. Phil jokes that this was the best part of the film. Phil suggests that Jerry turned to smokeable smack partly in reaction to producing the film. Bob V |
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#11
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On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:10:05 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ): In article , My Last Sigh wrote: I was just watching TV (PBS) and a Grateful Dead special came on. Looked like the 80s, I think it was a Jerry Garcia film. I noticed that every vocalist was singng to TWO mics , small mics, one placed UNDER the other. I was wondering if anyone knows what they were doing and what mics, the singers (Jerry, Bob, and some girl) were only singling directly into the TOP mic. Yes, this was part of the Wall of Sound system, which was just discussed here a week ago. Basically the speaker system is behind the band producing something that approximates a plane wave, and the microphones are dual omnis wired out of phase, so anything directly in front of them is cancelled out. An early proof of concept used B&K lab mikes but the band finally settled on something with a pair of Panasonic capsules. The comb filtering from the two mikes resulted in some very strange-sounding vocals (not that Donna's voice wasn't pretty strange to begin with), and of course all the instruments had to be taken direct or through amps miked offstage in big padded lockers. It was an interesting and innovative way to eliminate the need for monitors while still keeping feedback down. The only problem is that it sounded godawful. --scott Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals? Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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#12
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Ty Ford wrote:
Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals? You keep forgetting not to go there... -- ha |
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#13
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#14
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On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:20:08 -0400, Ty Ford wrote:
Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals? dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have? |
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#15
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"Agent 86" wrote in message news  On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:20:08 -0400, Ty Ford wrote: Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals? dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have? Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture of Jerry singing into one of a pair. Peace, Paul |
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#16
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In article ,
"Paul Stamler" wrote: "Agent 86" wrote in message news On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:20:08 -0400, Ty Ford wrote: Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals? dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have? Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture of Jerry singing into one of a pair. Peace, Paul At one point, I believe they were using pairs of RE55s. I imagine it was all an ongoing experiment... bruce seifried eclair engineering |
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#17
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Paul Stamler wrote:
"Agent 86" wrote in message On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:20:08 -0400, Ty Ford wrote: Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals? dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have? Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture of Jerry singing into one of a pair. I don't think they did with the Wall of Sound, but I may be mistaken. But taping two 421s together for dual record+PA vocal feeds was not an unusual practice back then. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#18
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On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 03:14:34 -0400, Paul Stamler wrote
(in article ): "Agent 86" wrote in message news On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:20:08 -0400, Ty Ford wrote: Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals? dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have? Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture of Jerry singing into one of a pair. Peace, Paul Thanks Paul. I guess we were smoking the same stuff. Did the flashbacks ever stop for you? Ty -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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#19
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"Ty Ford" wrote in message
... Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals? dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have? Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture of Jerry singing into one of a pair. Thanks Paul. I guess we were smoking the same stuff. Did the flashbacks ever stop for you? What flashbacks? Where in the green sodapop curve trillium puppy biscuit? Uh, what were we talking about? Peace, Paul |
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#20
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It was an interesting and innovative way to eliminate the need for monitors
while still keeping feedback down. The only problem is that it sounded godawful. The Wall of Sound : What happens when you give tripping techs and musicians too much money. "Dude I can see it too. We'll need like 500 speakers, it'll look totally cool." |
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#21
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tymish wrote:
It was an interesting and innovative way to eliminate the need for monitors while still keeping feedback down. The only problem is that it sounded godawful. The Wall of Sound : What happens when you give tripping techs and musicians too much money. "Dude I can see it too. We'll need like 500 speakers, it'll look totally cool." It actually was a very interesting experiment, and the AES paper is well worth reading. I heard it one time and it sounded good that day in that venue. Had transportation costs not inflated to make it unaffordable we might have seen some progress from it. One of the problems was the need for very precise vocal technique, and this made it nearly unusable by other bands in multi-act shows. -- ha |
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#22
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I wonder if some sort of headworn dual mic thing would have helped.
Seems academic now with in ear monitoring. |
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#23
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wrote:
I wonder if some sort of headworn dual mic thing would have helped. No, because the whole point of the dual mike system is that it cancels out signal coming from one direction, right in front of the mike pair. If you put it on a headset, you now have to have your head pointed in the same direction at all times. Seems academic now with in ear monitoring. For the most part it is. It was a silly idea. I'm glad somebody tried it, though. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#24
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If you put it on a headset, you now have to have your head pointed in
the same direction at all times. But as long as both mics move together wouldn't the phase cancellation still apply? |
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#25
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wrote:
If you put it on a headset, you now have to have your head pointed in the same direction at all times. But as long as both mics move together wouldn't the phase cancellation still apply? Right, but the direction that it's cancelling from is changing. Turn the pair 90 degrees, and now you have the PA system right in the main lobe. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#26
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On 6/16/05 1:22 PM, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote: wrote: I wonder if some sort of headworn dual mic thing would have helped. No, because the whole point of the dual mike system is that it cancels out signal coming from one direction, right in front of the mike pair. If you put it on a headset, you now have to have your head pointed in the same direction at all times. Seems academic now with in ear monitoring. For the most part it is. It was a silly idea. I'm glad somebody tried it, though. Silly? Nahhh... The idea was that each instrument DIRECTLY addressed the audience, from as identifiable a point as possible... --no matter how big the venue--. A line array becomes something ressembling a horizontally-discernable point source and could carry, the larger the venue, the larger the line-array. Thus we get The Wall system and a commensurately HUGE 'backline' (not really a term since this system doesn;t HAVE a 'front line') and in order to get vocal isolation SOMETHING has to happen. Only other place I saw this attempted was in the first 2 US tours of Cirque du Soleil ('89? + 91?) in which the BAND did this with massive numbers of stacked BOSE 802's dedicated in vertical lines to each instrument in the band. Both itterations worked marvelously, regardless of kneejerk naysayer theorists. It works as it's designers intended, sounds great BECAUSE of the directional cues and identifiability, and the only real drawback is that it's physically daunting and unwieldy to tour with on larger scales. Bose's recent reintroduction of this in a easy-carry package is very fun. And please let's NOT get back into the old Hose Bose nonsense. |
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#27
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On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:45:45 -0400, Paul Stamler wrote
(in article ): "Ty Ford" wrote in message ... Why am I "remembering" that dual MD 421 were used for vocals? dunno, how many cups of kool-aid did you have? Did they do a trial run with 421s? I seem to remember seeing a picture of Jerry singing into one of a pair. Thanks Paul. I guess we were smoking the same stuff. Did the flashbacks ever stop for you? What flashbacks? Where in the green sodapop curve trillium puppy biscuit? Uh, what were we talking about? Peace, Paul Exactly! I think we're fading a bit. Try this Guam Turnaround Black Beauty, it should keep you going til ....what were we talking about? Ty -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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#28
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I dunno but the treble from those horn drivers tastes weird......
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