[Harry Lavo]

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
If somebody has several thousand dollars involved in a good system, and
wants to spend $35 a cable for Monster as opposed to $10 a cable for some
lesser brand, because they seem to be better built and look and sound
good, and might sound better, what skin is it off your back?


And if somebody spends $50,000 on a system and feels he needs $200
cables to
match that quality, what skin is it off your back?

None whatsoever. Especially if they're honest and say that they're buying
them for the looks.

But if they claim that they are doing it for *auditory* reasons, I'll take
issue.

Why, if it seems "real" to them? And its their money? And they are not
making a scientific "claim", simply stating their experience or their
opinion?

And if someone with a fixed budget for a stereo system is about to waste
25% of it on cables, I think I'm doing them a favor by stepping in and
telling them to spend their money where it matters.

I haven't seen many examples this extreme on this forum, or most any usenet
forum. Certainly in nowhere the volume of those "patrolling" to warn of the
dangers of cable "voodoo".

Do you stand outside the Buick dealership telling all who go in that they
are in danger of being fleeced, and they should go down to the Chevy dealer
instead? They're likely to "waste" more money on the Buick vs. Chevy than
most people will "waste" on audio cables or wires.


Sure, it's nice to buy a product that comes is a hand made laquered
mahogany box. Just don't have any illusions that the box makes any
difference to the *functionality* of the product.

If you prefer expensive designer cables for some non-functional fashion
reason, fine. Go for it. Just don't tell me that they *sound* different.


To the buyer, they might well sound different. And unless you have abx'd
their specific cable or wire against standard gauge stranded copper in their
own systems, you have no basis for saying they don't. And even then, you
can say it only if he can't hear a difference using abx with white noise.

Electrical theory may say it is improbable they sound different. But it is
never presented that way. It is presented as "fact".

Let's look at it another way.

Do you really think store brand gelatin is much different from Jell-O?

Do you really think store brand american cheese slices are substantially
different from Kraft?

Yet people pay 50%+ for these products every day and are happy.....for a
variety of reasons. And I could name countless hundreds of food products
of a similar nature.

Your analogy breaks down because in most of these cases if you sample
these foods side by side you can actually taste a difference. (I haven't
eaten Jell-O or Kraft American cheese in decades, so I can't speak to
those particular prodects.)

Sometimes a small difference, sometimes no difference (many times produced
in the same plant with only cosmetic differences).
I spent 23 years in the industry. Trust me on this.


A better analogy is my brother throwing an absolute hissy fit because my
aunt served Welch's grape jelly from the 16 oz jar instead of the 8 oz
Howdy Doody glass. You like the Howdy Doody glass? Fine. But please admit
it ain't about the jelly.

Nonetheless he is expressing his preference for the Howdy Doody glass
version. You may think he is overdoing it and not being rational, and maybe
he is. So you try to educate him, and he continues to have "hissy fits".
Then what do you do?

What you are doing here is the equivalent of walking down the street and
telling his friends he is a dunce because he won't listen to you.

[bob]

Harry Lavo wrote:
"Walt" wrote in message

But if they claim that they are doing it for *auditory* reasons, I'll take
issue.

Why, if it seems "real" to them? And its their money? And they are not
making a scientific "claim", simply stating their experience or their
opinion?

I really don't care what rich people do with their money--as long as I
can tax most of it away from their heirs!

And if someone with a fixed budget for a stereo system is about to waste
25% of it on cables, I think I'm doing them a favor by stepping in and
telling them to spend their money where it matters.

I haven't seen many examples this extreme on this forum, or most any usenet
forum. Certainly in nowhere the volume of those "patrolling" to warn of the
dangers of cable "voodoo".

This "patrolling" isn't aimed at keeping people from buying whatever
they want to buy. It's aimed at helping them to be educated consumers.
And it barely dents the "education" on the other side, by the
audiophile press, and by salesmen who know nothing about their products
beyond this month's spiffs.

A few years back, I saw a Web site for a high-end store in my state
which listed several "recommended systems." The entry-level system cost
$1500, and included a $300 pair of speakers and $300 worth of wire.
That, to my mind, is malpractice.

bob

[Walt]

Harry Lavo wrote:
"Walt" wrote

And if someone with a fixed budget for a stereo system is about to waste
25% of it on cables, I think I'm doing them a favor by stepping in and
telling them to spend their money where it matters.

I haven't seen many examples this extreme on this forum, or most any usenet
forum. Certainly in nowhere the volume of those "patrolling" to warn of the
dangers of cable "voodoo".

I have.

I have actually heard salesmen say as a rule of thumb you should
allocate 25% of your budget to cables. There are more than a few
"buyers guides" from retailers that overemphasize the importance of
cables. For instance, here are two:

http://www.futureshop.ca/learnmore/buyersguide/EN/av_cable.asp?P=02&logon=&langid=EN
and
http://www.audiosystems.com/BuyingGuide.html#Anchor27259
paraphrasing: "the free cables that come with your gear are no good.
Spend money accessorizing - it makes a big difference."

It is *very* easy for a newcomer to think that they have to spend big $$
on cables. Yes, children believe in Santa Clause and the Easter bunny
too. And you think I'm some kind of mean ogre for pointing out the fact
that there's little evidence of the existence of either.

Whatever.

I doubt we're going to settle this any time soon.

Sorry I called you "Henry" last night, Harry.

//walt

[Harry Lavo]

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
"Walt" wrote

And if someone with a fixed budget for a stereo system is about to waste
25% of it on cables, I think I'm doing them a favor by stepping in and
telling them to spend their money where it matters.

I haven't seen many examples this extreme on this forum, or most any
usenet
forum. Certainly in nowhere the volume of those "patrolling" to warn of
the
dangers of cable "voodoo".

I have.

I have actually heard salesmen say as a rule of thumb you should allocate
25% of your budget to cables. There are more than a few "buyers guides"
from retailers that overemphasize the importance of cables. For instance,
here are two:

http://www.futureshop.ca/learnmore/buyersguide/EN/av_cable.asp?P=02&logon=&langid=EN
and
http://www.audiosystems.com/BuyingGuide.html#Anchor27259
paraphrasing: "the free cables that come with your gear are no good. Spend
money accessorizing - it makes a big difference."

It is *very* easy for a newcomer to think that they have to spend big $$
on cables. Yes, children believe in Santa Clause and the Easter bunny
too. And you think I'm some kind of mean ogre for pointing out the fact
that there's little evidence of the existence of either.

Whatever.

I doubt we're going to settle this any time soon.

Sorry I called you "Henry" last night, Harry.

No problem.

Walt, I've read both examples you've given me. I see things I agree with,
and things I don't. About 67/33. But I don't see too much egregious in
their discussion of cables.

Here's Futureshop:

Here I find some manufacturer's gobbledegook mixed in with some fairly sound
advice. I don't see any percentage recommendations or any radical
statements. I would also note that this is in a section entitled "Ask the
Expert". It is on the web, available by user choice. It is not thrust in
the face of the visitor or potential buyer.

Here's Audio Systems:

"You don't have to spend a fortune on good cables, but you should regard the
transfer of information from one component to the next as important. Ask us
for
recommendations, and try out some good cables when you get your system."
Not exactly a radical recommendation, again included along with a lot of
very sensible information.

************************************************** *****

Frankly, based on your POV I was expecting some pretty far out stuff; I just
don't see it.