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paul packer
 
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On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:35:25 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


**Indeed. However, IMO, superstition is no replacement for understanding.
Education is the real answer to people's problems. They may not enjoy those
answers at a given time, but for humanity as a whole, true understanding of
the nature of this universe is the ONLY answer. Superstition and
gobbledegook merely leads to more superstition and gobbledegook.


So what are you telling us, Trevor? That there are no educated and
intelligent Christians? If there are, then there's a contradiction in
your argument.
  #42   Report Post  
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paul packer
 
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On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 15:12:43 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message


There seems to be a divided opinion on this subject.


LOL.

In fact, there's no division.

All of the posts publicly saying "don't do it" are no doubt backed with
private email and phone calls saying "do it".

I'll let my pastor know that those online sickies I've been telling him
about, are going to call him in an attempt to harass me.

I have received no such emails, Arny.
Behind their facades, the r.a.o.'ers really do seem to extend to you what
you would call Christian love.


Robert, all this rings a bell. Even the language you're using about
Arny being angry etc. Of course it's true, but it's all been said and
suggested, thankfully with no action, before. But I think you're well
aware of what's appropriate; I think you're just sounding the group to
see who stands where. Arny is indeed self-blind, which makes his
judgements of others suspect and his behaviour frequently infuriating,
but I honestly don't see much more to it than that. Now if you really
want to see bad, even insane behaviour, pop over to aus.hi-fi and take
a look at the antics of Phil Allison. Then feel grateful to be here
and not there.
  #43   Report Post  
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Trevor Wilson
 
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"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:35:25 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


**Indeed. However, IMO, superstition is no replacement for understanding.
Education is the real answer to people's problems. They may not enjoy
those
answers at a given time, but for humanity as a whole, true understanding
of
the nature of this universe is the ONLY answer. Superstition and
gobbledegook merely leads to more superstition and gobbledegook.


So what are you telling us, Trevor? That there are no educated and
intelligent Christians?


**No. Clearly, some Christians (and Muslims, Jews, Hindus, et al. I amke no
distictions between religious groups) are intelligent. They do, however,
suffer a 'blind spot' WRT critical thinking.

If there are, then there's a contradiction in
your argument.


**No. Sufficient education routs superstitious beliefs.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au


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Clyde Slick
 
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message


There seems to be a divided opinion on this subject.


LOL.

In fact, there's no division.

All of the posts publicly saying "don't do it" are no doubt backed with
private email and phone calls saying "do it".

I'll let my pastor know that those online sickies I've been telling him
about, are going to call him in an attempt to harass me.


Arny, truly you ARE insane.


  #45   Report Post  
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surf
 
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"Trevor Wilson" ...

Education is the real answer to people's problems. They may not enjoy
those answers at a given time, but for humanity as a whole, true
understanding of the nature of this universe is the ONLY answer.


What is the true nature of the universe then? That it banged into
existence
from nothingness without cause?




  #46   Report Post  
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Trevor Wilson
 
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"surf" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" ...

Education is the real answer to people's problems. They may not enjoy
those answers at a given time, but for humanity as a whole, true
understanding of the nature of this universe is the ONLY answer.


What is the true nature of the universe then?


**Please refine your question. It is not possible to answer.

That it banged into
existence
from nothingness without cause?


**No one knows. That part of our history is under intense investigation.
Just as religion has never been able to address any of the questions raised
by the major branches of science, there is no point in turning to religion
for answer in the area of cosmology either. After all, it was the Catholic
Church which locked up Galileo for suggesting that the Earth revolved around
the Sun.

Religion needs to stick to what it does best: Philosophy and poetry. It
should leave actual science to actual scientists.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au


  #47   Report Post  
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Clyde Slick
 
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"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"surf" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" ...

Education is the real answer to people's problems. They may not enjoy
those answers at a given time, but for humanity as a whole, true
understanding of the nature of this universe is the ONLY answer.


What is the true nature of the universe then?


**Please refine your question. It is not possible to answer.

That it banged into
existence
from nothingness without cause?


**No one knows. That part of our history is under intense investigation.
Just as religion has never been able to address any of the questions
raised by the major branches of science, there is no point in turning to
religion for answer in the area of cosmology either. After all, it was the
Catholic Church which locked up Galileo for suggesting that the Earth
revolved around the Sun.

Religion needs to stick to what it does best: Philosophy and poetry. It
should leave actual science to actual scientists.


Science endeavors to explain the explainable.
Religion endeavors to explain the unexplainable.
There is enough of both.


  #48   Report Post  
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Clyde Slick
 
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"surf" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" ...

Education is the real answer to people's problems. They may not enjoy
those answers at a given time, but for humanity as a whole, true
understanding of the nature of this universe is the ONLY answer.


What is the true nature of the universe then? That it banged into
existence
from nothingness without cause?


Sure, and probably more than once.


  #49   Report Post  
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surf
 
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"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"surf" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" ...

Education is the real answer to people's problems. They may not enjoy
those answers at a given time, but for humanity as a whole, true
understanding of the nature of this universe is the ONLY answer.


What is the true nature of the universe then? That it banged into
existence
from nothingness without cause?


Sure, and probably more than once.



and *that* doesn't require a leap of faith ?


  #50   Report Post  
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paul packer
 
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On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:36:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


All of the posts publicly saying "don't do it" are no doubt
backed with private email and phone calls saying "do it".


You know, there's a world of instruction in this post of Arnie's. It
speaks of a very sad and lonely existance believing that no one likes
him because he's always right, all by dint of superior intelligence.
IOW, Arnie believes he's a martyr to his eternal "rightness", his
divine mission to show us all where we're going wrong, beginning with
our skewed belief in subjectivism. Arnie believes he'll die
friendless, but that the sacrifice will have been worth it because
he'll have brought enlightenment to the world.

I wonder if when Arnie was born there was a travelling light in the
sky being followed determinedly by three audio technicians bearing
gifts of diodes, rectifiers and resistors (no transistors in those
days). Can anyone trace such a phenomenon back to the early 40s, or
were there too many lights in the sky around then to ever identify the
right one?


  #51   Report Post  
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surf
 
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"Trevor Wilson" wrote...

That it banged into
existence
from nothingness without cause?


**No one knows. That part of our history is under intense investigation.
Just as religion has never been able to address any of the questions
raised by the major branches of science, there is no point in turning to
religion for answer in the area of cosmology either. After all, it was the
Catholic Church which locked up Galileo for suggesting that the Earth
revolved around the Sun.

Religion needs to stick to what it does best: Philosophy and poetry. It
should leave actual science to actual scientists.


Faith in God is as George has said. It's not a condition. It's a verb.
To believe in God is to commit your life to that supposition. No one
knows for sure that God exists, any more than you can prove it's
gobbledygook.

I believe this is true: until you decide to believe in God, you will
continue to search for a truth. If you decide to believe in God,
you will feel better............. if for no other reason than you will
be done searching. Read the Bible. It may be the word of God.
God may speak to you.

As I said to Art, to believe that the universe banged into existence
from nothing without cause takes a large amount of faith.
Yes - it's the nature of nothingness. Occasionally, it explodes.
Once it exploded and 77 variables, each with an infinite number
of possible values, all took the precise value that allow
carbon-based life to evolve. Lucky. And... if you listen carefully,
you can hear the difference between two well built SS amplifiers
not driven to clipping.


  #52   Report Post  
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Arny Krueger
 
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"paul packer" wrote in message

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:36:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


All of the posts publicly saying "don't do it" are no
doubt backed with private email and phone calls saying
"do it".


You know, there's a world of instruction in this post of
Arnie's. It speaks of a very sad and lonely existance
believing that no one likes him because he's always
right, all by dint of superior intelligence. IOW, Arnie
believes he's a martyr to his eternal "rightness", his
divine mission to show us all where we're going wrong,
beginning with our skewed belief in subjectivism. Arnie
believes he'll die friendless, but that the sacrifice
will have been worth it because he'll have brought
enlightenment to the world.


This is a sad joke on Paul Packer's life, if he believes for
a second it's right.

When people make posts like this, they tend to be
autobiographical.


  #53   Report Post  
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George M. Middius
 
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Clyde Slick said:

Science endeavors to explain the explainable.
Religion endeavors to explain the unexplainable.


I disagree with that. Organized religion endeavors to palliate the
incomprehensible and ascribe it to imagined -- and equally incomprehensible
-- causes. Hardly the same thing as explaining, which is usually taken to
mean deducing a cause from a perceived effect. Real science (not 'borg
science, which is close kin to religion) leaves a clear trail of logic that
anybody can reconstruct. Religion, like a lot of fiction, demands that you
suspend your reliance on reason and accept tenets on faith.




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surf
 
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"paul packer" writes:

You know, there's a world of instruction in this post of
Arnie's. It speaks of a very sad and lonely existance
believing that no one likes him because he's always
right, all by dint of superior intelligence. IOW, Arnie
believes he's a martyr to his eternal "rightness", his
divine mission to show us all where we're going wrong,
beginning with our skewed belief in subjectivism. Arnie
believes he'll die friendless, but that the sacrifice
will have been worth it because he'll have brought
enlightenment to the world.



And then Arny demonstrates the precise qualities paul has
just ascribed to him:

This is a sad joke on Paul Packer's life, if he believes for a second it's
right.

When people make posts like this, they tend to be autobiographical.



poor, poor arny.........


  #55   Report Post  
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George M. Middius
 
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surf said:

You know, there's a world of instruction in this post of
Arnie's. It speaks of a very sad and lonely existance
believing that no one likes him because he's always
right, all by dint of superior intelligence. IOW, Arnie
believes he's a martyr to his eternal "rightness", his
divine mission to show us all where we're going wrong,
beginning with our skewed belief in subjectivism. Arnie
believes he'll die friendless, but that the sacrifice
will have been worth it because he'll have brought
enlightenment to the world.


And then Arny demonstrates the precise qualities paul has
just ascribed to him:


This is a sad joke on Paul Packer's life, if he believes for a second it's right.


The IKYABWAI is one of Mr. ****'s primary "debating trade" dodges.
Turdy doesn't resort to it as often as his proto**** Mickey does.

When people make posts like this, they tend to be autobiographical.


"It's not me! It's you! You! You! YOU!"

poor, poor arny.........


paulie's description of Kroofulness is pretty accurate, but he left out the
paranoia. Krooger's paranoia is the defining element of his mental
infirmity. It's a lot stronger than just feeling disliked. He actually
believes that when people disagree with him, they are his "enemies".
Krooger has said so many times. The paranoia does reinforce Krooger's
delusion of being a martyr, so on that count I think paulie was 100%
correct.

I still want to hear about Arnii's "series of strokes". Some people have
said the Beast's behavior worsened (if that's possible) around this time in
2001. Maybe that's when he had his illness.









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Clyde Slick
 
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"surf" wrote in message
. ..
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"surf" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" ...

Education is the real answer to people's problems. They may not enjoy
those answers at a given time, but for humanity as a whole, true
understanding of the nature of this universe is the ONLY answer.

What is the true nature of the universe then? That it banged into
existence
from nothingness without cause?


Sure, and probably more than once.



and *that* doesn't require a leap of faith ?


I'm not anti-religion, just an agnostic.


  #57   Report Post  
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Clyde Slick
 
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"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:36:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


All of the posts publicly saying "don't do it" are no doubt
backed with private email and phone calls saying "do it".


You know, there's a world of instruction in this post of Arnie's. It
speaks of a very sad and lonely existance believing that no one likes
him because he's always right, all by dint of superior intelligence.
IOW, Arnie believes he's a martyr to his eternal "rightness", his
divine mission to show us all where we're going wrong, beginning with
our skewed belief in subjectivism. Arnie believes he'll die
friendless, but that the sacrifice will have been worth it because
he'll have brought enlightenment to the world.

I wonder if when Arnie was born there was a travelling light in the
sky being followed determinedly by three audio technicians bearing
gifts of diodes, rectifiers and resistors (no transistors in those
days). Can anyone trace such a phenomenon back to the early 40s, or
were there too many lights in the sky around then to ever identify the
right one?



I thnk he was followed by three guys with brooms, dustpans,
adn a lot of extra diapers.


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Clyde Slick
 
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

When people make posts like this, they tend to be autobiographical.


Right, just like your posts about other people sending you kiddie porn


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Clyde Slick
 
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"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message ...


Clyde Slick said:

Science endeavors to explain the explainable.
Religion endeavors to explain the unexplainable.


I disagree with that. Organized religion endeavors to palliate the
incomprehensible and ascribe it to imagined -- and equally
incomprehensible
-- causes. Hardly the same thing as explaining, which is usually taken to
mean deducing a cause from a perceived effect. Real science (not 'borg
science, which is close kin to religion) leaves a clear trail of logic
that
anybody can reconstruct. Religion, like a lot of fiction, demands that you
suspend your reliance on reason and accept tenets on faith.


We agree, one can't explain the
unexplainable, one can only create myths about it.
That thought was inherent in my last post.


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Ruud Broens
 
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"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...
:
: "paul packer" wrote in message
: ...
: On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:35:25 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
: wrote:
:
:
: **Indeed. However, IMO, superstition is no replacement for understanding.
: Education is the real answer to people's problems. They may not enjoy
: those
: answers at a given time, but for humanity as a whole, true understanding
: of
: the nature of this universe is the ONLY answer. Superstition and
: gobbledegook merely leads to more superstition and gobbledegook.
:
: So what are you telling us, Trevor? That there are no educated and
: intelligent Christians?
:
: **No. Clearly, some Christians (and Muslims, Jews, Hindus, et al. I amke no
: distictions between religious groups) are intelligent. They do, however,
: suffer a 'blind spot' WRT critical thinking.
:
: If there are, then there's a contradiction in
: your argument.
:
: **No. Sufficient education routs superstitious beliefs.
:

that sounds so borg - like, Trev :-)

materialism, one of those legs science rest on,
could just as easily be added to your "superstitious beliefs"
as proving or disproving it by scientific standards is a
rather circular affair :-)

Agree with the education, do hope for room for discussion;-)
a society of absolutes,
not my cuppa ;-)

Rudy


: --
: Trevor Wilson
: www.rageaudio.com.au
:
:




  #61   Report Post  
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Trevor Wilson
 
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"surf" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" wrote...

That it banged into
existence
from nothingness without cause?


**No one knows. That part of our history is under intense investigation.
Just as religion has never been able to address any of the questions
raised by the major branches of science, there is no point in turning to
religion for answer in the area of cosmology either. After all, it was
the Catholic Church which locked up Galileo for suggesting that the Earth
revolved around the Sun.

Religion needs to stick to what it does best: Philosophy and poetry. It
should leave actual science to actual scientists.


Faith in God is as George has said. It's not a condition. It's a verb.
To believe in God is to commit your life to that supposition. No one
knows for sure that God exists, any more than you can prove it's
gobbledygook.


**There is not now, nor has there ever been a single shred of evidence to
suggest that any supernatural creatures exist. It is, therefore, not
reasonable to include the supernatural as part of the the explanation for
the forces and processes we observe. Can I prove the non-existence of
anything? Of course not. However, like differences in amplifiers, if they
cannot be measured, nor (reliably) heard, then they do not exist. Likewise,
the supernatural (God). If it is not possible to observe such a creature,
nor measure it's existence, then it does not exist.


I believe this is true: until you decide to believe in God, you will
continue to search for a truth. If you decide to believe in God,
you will feel better............. if for no other reason than you will
be done searching. Read the Bible.


**I've read the Bible. Many times.

It may be the word of God.
God may speak to you.


**No. The Bible is a book, written by scientifically illiterate people, some
100-odd years after the death of Jesus (New Testament). It variously
contains philosophy, poetry, history, fiction and other stuff. Moreover, it
has been politically altered over the years and badly translated in
sections. It is an interesting and highly flawed document. It must ALWAYS be
viewed in that context. Treating the Bible as a kind of reference is a fatal
mistake. Without corroberating evidence, the information contained within
the Bible should be treated as suspect.


As I said to Art, to believe that the universe banged into existence
from nothing without cause takes a large amount of faith.


**We (human beings) do not know how the universe came about. We have some
theories and some wild speculation. It is quite probable that we will never
know for sure.


Yes - it's the nature of nothingness. Occasionally, it explodes.
Once it exploded and 77 variables, each with an infinite number
of possible values, all took the precise value that allow
carbon-based life to evolve. Lucky.


**Not so much. The universe is extremely large and the chances of life
appearing somewhere, sometime, was quite high.

And... if you listen carefully,
you can hear the difference between two well built SS amplifiers
not driven to clipping.


**Certainly, if one of those amps is poorly designed. I've certainly heard
it.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au


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"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
There seems to be a divided opinion on this subject.

I would not ask the pastor for more than to help Arny with his problems.
Usenet addictions are common, but Arny seems to be suffering so much. If
this is not a purpose of one's church, what else is there? Arny
embarasses himself every day here, and in other forums, in front
of thousands of people. Where there is smoke, there is fire. Giving a
pastor information that would help him do his job better could save Arny
from troubles that none of us know anything about. Arny is an extremely
angry man. This is what distinguishes the rest of us from Arny.

It appears to me that the scales are so balanced:
1. Don't embarass Arny.
2. Arny is an extremely unhappy, angry person, who needs pastoral
attention, and this is an opportunity to open the door.

If I were to speak to Arny's pastor, I WOULD NOT ask the pastor to exert
pressue on Arny to change what he writes. My attitude would be that this
is an opportunity for Arny to receive counseling, entirely for his own
benefit. Whatever benefit comes to us would be only a side effect of a
happier Arny.

Please sound off.


**Do you seriously imagine that you can speak rationally and reasonably
with a person whose PROFESSION is completely dominated by delusion?



His Pastor works for Stereophile?


  #63   Report Post  
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paul packer
 
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On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:10:20 -0500, George M. Middius cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote:

Real science (not 'borg
science, which is close kin to religion) leaves a clear trail of logic that
anybody can reconstruct.


Quantum physics?
  #64   Report Post  
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paul packer
 
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On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 22:29:01 GMT, wrote:


"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
There seems to be a divided opinion on this subject.

I would not ask the pastor for more than to help Arny with his problems.
Usenet addictions are common, but Arny seems to be suffering so much. If
this is not a purpose of one's church, what else is there? Arny
embarasses himself every day here, and in other forums, in front
of thousands of people. Where there is smoke, there is fire. Giving a
pastor information that would help him do his job better could save Arny
from troubles that none of us know anything about. Arny is an extremely
angry man. This is what distinguishes the rest of us from Arny.

It appears to me that the scales are so balanced:
1. Don't embarass Arny.
2. Arny is an extremely unhappy, angry person, who needs pastoral
attention, and this is an opportunity to open the door.

If I were to speak to Arny's pastor, I WOULD NOT ask the pastor to exert
pressue on Arny to change what he writes. My attitude would be that this
is an opportunity for Arny to receive counseling, entirely for his own
benefit. Whatever benefit comes to us would be only a side effect of a
happier Arny.

Please sound off.


**Do you seriously imagine that you can speak rationally and reasonably
with a person whose PROFESSION is completely dominated by delusion?



His Pastor works for Stereophile?


Pretty good, Mike. Still thinking.
  #65   Report Post  
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Lionel
 
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In , paul packer wrote :

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:10:20 -0500, George M. Middius cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote:

Real science (not 'borg
science, which is close kin to religion) leaves a clear trail of logic
that anybody can reconstruct.


Quantum physics?



George doesn't care about over-simplification he just wants to look
intelligent.


--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15


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paul packer
 
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On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 07:17:15 -0700, "surf"
wrote:

"paul packer" writes:


You know, there's a world of instruction in this post of
Arnie's. It speaks of a very sad and lonely existance
believing that no one likes him because he's always
right, all by dint of superior intelligence. IOW, Arnie
believes he's a martyr to his eternal "rightness", his
divine mission to show us all where we're going wrong,
beginning with our skewed belief in subjectivism. Arnie
believes he'll die friendless, but that the sacrifice
will have been worth it because he'll have brought
enlightenment to the world.



And then Arny demonstrates the precise qualities paul has
just ascribed to him:


But you'd expect that, wouldn't you? I've just posted to Phil Allison
at aus.hi-fi wishing that he could look back and see himself, and one
could wish Arnie the same. Not that I'm making comparisons--Phil is a
far gone creature without redeeming virtues, a pile of screaming
paranioa. Arnie can actually be a nice guy whern he chooses, and
probably is very kind to animals as well. However, the nature of the
self-blindness is the same.
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Trevor Wilson
 
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"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:10:20 -0500, George M. Middius cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote:

Real science (not 'borg
science, which is close kin to religion) leaves a clear trail of logic
that
anybody can reconstruct.


Quantum physics?


**Just to be pedantic, that would be "Quantum Mechanics". And the answer is
yes. QM answers the questions, with logic (most of the time) and evidence.
However, there are areas of QM which are in the realm of science fiction.
These are still areas of either theory, hypothesis, or wild speculation. The
nice thing about science is that nothing is written into law, until it has
been proven. OTOH, religious groups expect their followers to believe in
stuff where no evidence exists. Worse, when proven utterly and completely
wrong (the Earth revolving around the Sun thing), apologies can take
Centuries to be brought forth. Science does not work that way. When Einstein
proved Newtonian Physics incorrect, the acceptance within the scientific
community took a matter of a few years.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au


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surf
 
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Default should I call Krueger's pastor?

"Clyde Slick" wrote

I'm not anti-religion, just an agnostic.



I thought you were Jewish........


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Clyde Slick
 
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"surf" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote

I'm not anti-religion, just an agnostic.



I thought you were Jewish........


sure, a Jewish agnostic, or an agnostic Jew.


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surf
 
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"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

........... If it is not possible to observe such a creature, nor measure
it's existence, then it does not exist.


disagree.


Read the Bible.
It may be the word of God.
God may speak to you.


**No.


Trevor - it's possible the Bible is the inspired word of God.

.....The Bible is a book, written by scientifically illiterate people,
some 100-odd years after the death of Jesus (New Testament). It variously
contains philosophy, poetry, history, fiction and other stuff. Moreover,
it has been politically altered over the years and badly translated in
sections. It is an interesting and highly flawed document. It must ALWAYS
be viewed in that context. Treating the Bible as a kind of reference is a
fatal mistake.


Agreed. The Bible should not be used as a reference.

As I said to Art, to believe that the universe banged into existence
from nothing without cause takes a large amount of faith.


**We (human beings) do not know how the universe came about. We have some
theories and some wild speculation. It is quite probable that we will
never know for sure.


We know it's expanding. Don't most scientists subscribe to the Big Bang
theory?

Yes - it's the nature of nothingness. Occasionally, it explodes.
Once it exploded and 77 variables, each with an infinite number
of possible values, all took the precise value that allow
carbon-based life to evolve. Lucky.


**Not so much. The universe is extremely large and the chances of life
appearing somewhere, sometime, was quite high.


Now you're talking about life appearing in this universe. We haven't yet
figured out how or why the universe "appeared".

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/154/story_15485_1.html
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...mysearch.shtml




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Clyde Slick
 
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"surf" wrote in message
...


Trevor - it's possible the Bible is the inspired word of God.


Who inspired God to write it?


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Trevor Wilson
 
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"surf" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

........... If it is not possible to observe such a creature, nor measure
it's existence, then it does not exist.


disagree.


**Then you are entitled to your delusion.



Read the Bible.
It may be the word of God.
God may speak to you.


**No.


Trevor - it's possible the Bible is the inspired word of God.


**The Bible was written by humans. That much is known absolutely. If those
humans were deluded, then that is also possible.


.....The Bible is a book, written by scientifically illiterate people,
some 100-odd years after the death of Jesus (New Testament). It variously
contains philosophy, poetry, history, fiction and other stuff. Moreover,
it has been politically altered over the years and badly translated in
sections. It is an interesting and highly flawed document. It must ALWAYS
be viewed in that context. Treating the Bible as a kind of reference is a
fatal mistake.


Agreed. The Bible should not be used as a reference.

As I said to Art, to believe that the universe banged into existence
from nothing without cause takes a large amount of faith.


**We (human beings) do not know how the universe came about. We have some
theories and some wild speculation. It is quite probable that we will
never know for sure.


We know it's expanding. Don't most scientists subscribe to the Big Bang
theory?


**Yes. What is not known is what happened during the first few microseconds
of the Big Bang. The laws of physics, as we know them, do not operate within
the physical constraints of what must have been in existence at that time.


Yes - it's the nature of nothingness. Occasionally, it explodes.
Once it exploded and 77 variables, each with an infinite number
of possible values, all took the precise value that allow
carbon-based life to evolve. Lucky.


**Not so much. The universe is extremely large and the chances of life
appearing somewhere, sometime, was quite high.


Now you're talking about life appearing in this universe. We haven't yet
figured out how or why the universe "appeared".


**The 'how may never be known. The 'why' is a nonsensical question.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au


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surf
 
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"Trevor Wilson" wrote

Trevor - it's possible the Bible is the inspired word of God.


**The Bible was written by humans. That much is known absolutely. If those
humans were deluded, then that is also possible.


I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you agreeing with me?

What is not known is what happened during the first few microseconds of
the Big Bang. The laws of physics, as we know them, do not operate within
the physical constraints of what must have been in existence at that time.


You seem to be saying that possibly nothingness occasionally explodes
without cause. It may be the nature of nothingness, right? Do you
suppose the result of the explosion is usually different? Once it was
a universe.


  #74   Report Post  
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Trevor Wilson
 
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"surf" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" wrote

Trevor - it's possible the Bible is the inspired word of God.


**The Bible was written by humans. That much is known absolutely. If
those humans were deluded, then that is also possible.


I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you agreeing with me?


**If you think that my words mean what you said, then yes. My words remain.


What is not known is what happened during the first few microseconds of
the Big Bang. The laws of physics, as we know them, do not operate within
the physical constraints of what must have been in existence at that
time.


You seem to be saying that possibly nothingness occasionally explodes
without cause.


**Really? Where did I say that? Be specific.

It may be the nature of nothingness, right?


**There is no such thing as nothingness. In our universe, there is always
something, somewhere. It may be matter, or energy.

Do you
suppose the result of the explosion is usually different?


**HUh?

Once it was
a universe.


**The universe always was. Before the Big Bang, the universe was smaller and
very different to what is here now.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au


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Lionel
 
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In , Trevor Wilson wrote :

When Einstein proved Newtonian Physics incorrect,


incomplete

the acceptance
within the scientific community took a matter of a few years.


Just because the scientific community was anxiously waiting since a long
time that someone could fill the gaps.

Have you already played puzzle with 2 or 3 persons ?
When someone find *the* missing part; the one that everybody was looking
for; it takes only few minutes to finish the image.


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Lionel
 
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In , surf wrote :

Arthur "Sackman" Tsechmeister wrote

I'm not anti-religion, just an agnostic.



I thought you were Jewish........


Don't be so cruel... He is making a lot of efforts to forget !!!

(One pretends that he has changed his last name from Tsechmeister to
Sackman).


--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15
  #77   Report Post  
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Lionel
 
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Arthur "Sackman" Tsechmeister wrote :


"surf" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote

I'm not anti-religion, just an agnostic.



I thought you were Jewish........


sure, a Jewish agnostic, or an agnostic Jew.



Tsechmeister/Sackman is also a nudist but he doesn't practice. ;-)




--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15
  #78   Report Post  
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Lionel
 
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In , surf wrote :

"Trevor Wilson" wrote

Trevor - it's possible the Bible is the inspired word of God.


**The Bible was written by humans. That much is known absolutely. If
those humans were deluded, then that is also possible.


I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you agreeing with me?

What is not known is what happened during the first few microseconds of
the Big Bang. The laws of physics, as we know them, do not operate within
the physical constraints of what must have been in existence at that
time.


You seem to be saying that possibly nothingness occasionally explodes
without cause. It may be the nature of nothingness, right? Do you
suppose the result of the explosion is usually different? Once it was
a universe.



IMHO, science like religion are just ways to deal with the "Great Illusion".
None is "more" false, "more" deceptive than the other one. Both are human
*only*.



--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15
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Clyde Slick
 
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"Lionel" wrote in message
...


(One pretends that he has changed his last name from Tsechmeister to
Sackman).


yes, one in France does pretend that.


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Arny Krueger
 
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"paul packer" wrote in message


But you'd expect that, wouldn't you? I've just posted to
Phil Allison at aus.hi-fi wishing that he could look back
and see himself, and one could wish Arnie the same. Not
that I'm making comparisons--Phil is a far gone creature
without redeeming virtues, a pile of screaming paranioa.
Arnie can actually be a nice guy whern he chooses, and
probably is very kind to animals as well. However, the
nature of the self-blindness is the same.


If self-righteouness killed...

Combined with a total lack of self-consciousness, one simply
must laugh...

....or cry.

Here's a hint Paul - you're beginning to sound just like
Morein.


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