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#1
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Ribbon mics... which pre?
Maxy wrote:
Hi everybody, I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my usual preamps.... What kind of ribbon mikes? Impedence problems? Maybe, what kind of preamps? What do I use? I don't know. What instruments are you recording? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#2
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Maxy wrote:
I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my usual preamps.... Impedence problems? What do I use? What mics? What preamp? On what sources? -- ha |
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#3
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Maxy wrote:
I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my usual preamps.... Impedence problems? What do I use? What mics? What preamp? On what sources? -- ha |
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#4
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So:
I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. Thanks Max "Maxy" ha scritto nel messaggio ... Hi everybody, I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my usual preamps.... Impedence problems? What do I use? Thanks Max |
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#5
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So:
I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. Thanks Max "Maxy" ha scritto nel messaggio ... Hi everybody, I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my usual preamps.... Impedence problems? What do I use? Thanks Max |
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#6
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Maxy wrote:
So: I use oktava ML52 (x4) These, sadly, will be noisy no matter what you do, because of the transformer they use. beyerdynamic M130 (x2) These shouldn't be all that noisy. The output is low, but not outrageously low. coles 4038 (x1) This has less top end than either of the other two, which can sometimes fool you into thinking it's not as loud. But it also has plenty of output. As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. None of these are going to perform terribly well. Try a transformer-input preamp like the Great River, the John Hardy, or even the Peavey VMP-2. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. If you have a good preamp, you'll still have to turn the gain knob up to maximum. The difference is that with a good preamp, it will sound good and won't be as noisy with the gain at maximum. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. Yes, but that's not your issue yet. Ribbons will change their tone a lot with loading. But if you aren't getting enough output level, you have not got to the level of worrying about tone yet. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#7
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Maxy wrote:
So: I use oktava ML52 (x4) These, sadly, will be noisy no matter what you do, because of the transformer they use. beyerdynamic M130 (x2) These shouldn't be all that noisy. The output is low, but not outrageously low. coles 4038 (x1) This has less top end than either of the other two, which can sometimes fool you into thinking it's not as loud. But it also has plenty of output. As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. None of these are going to perform terribly well. Try a transformer-input preamp like the Great River, the John Hardy, or even the Peavey VMP-2. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. If you have a good preamp, you'll still have to turn the gain knob up to maximum. The difference is that with a good preamp, it will sound good and won't be as noisy with the gain at maximum. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. Yes, but that's not your issue yet. Ribbons will change their tone a lot with loading. But if you aren't getting enough output level, you have not got to the level of worrying about tone yet. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#8
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#9
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#10
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message preamp like the Great River, the John Hardy, or even the Peavey VMP-2. I use a VMP-2 on my M-260DX mikes and they sound great. Taylor |
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#11
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message preamp like the Great River, the John Hardy, or even the Peavey VMP-2. I use a VMP-2 on my M-260DX mikes and they sound great. Taylor |
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#12
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"Maxy" wrote in message
... So: I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. You're not having an impedance problem, you're having a level problem. Soft instruments plus low-sensitivity microphones = low microphone output levels. So yes, you have to turn the preamp's gain control up to get adequate level, and since most of these are not hugely quiet preamps, you'll get excessive noise. Look for quieter preamps. The'll cost more than Behringers, Mackies and the like, but that's really what it takes to use ribbons on quiet instruments. And that still may not be enough; you may find that ribbons are just too quiet for this application. Peace, Paul |
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#13
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"Maxy" wrote in message
... So: I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. You're not having an impedance problem, you're having a level problem. Soft instruments plus low-sensitivity microphones = low microphone output levels. So yes, you have to turn the preamp's gain control up to get adequate level, and since most of these are not hugely quiet preamps, you'll get excessive noise. Look for quieter preamps. The'll cost more than Behringers, Mackies and the like, but that's really what it takes to use ribbons on quiet instruments. And that still may not be enough; you may find that ribbons are just too quiet for this application. Peace, Paul |
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#14
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Maxy wrote:
So: I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. The preamps you mentioned are not known for their high gain performance. If one of the transformerless ones has a high enough input impedance, you *might* be able to get away with putting a good (Jensen, Lundahl, Sowter, etc.) input transformer ahead of the preamp. Think 2:1, 3:1, or maybe 4:1 depending on the preamp. |
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#15
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Maxy wrote:
So: I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. The preamps you mentioned are not known for their high gain performance. If one of the transformerless ones has a high enough input impedance, you *might* be able to get away with putting a good (Jensen, Lundahl, Sowter, etc.) input transformer ahead of the preamp. Think 2:1, 3:1, or maybe 4:1 depending on the preamp. |
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#16
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I've been through a few preamps lately with an R84. By far the best has
been Vintech X73i, at 300 ohm. Very strong, realistic sound, a little "bigger than life" even. I use it maxed at 70 dB, it's not noisy. Focusrite ISA 428 was pretty nice, also offers variable-Z, as well as 80 dB gain. The R84 can use all of that. I haven't cared for the ribbon with solid state preamps Grace and Klark-Teknik. In my experience, this ribbon mic is very dependent on the preamp impedance, low-Z is definitely better for a stronger, clearer sound. And as mentioned by others, transformer input is usually helpful with ribbons. Steve "Maxy" wrote: I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. |
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#17
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I've been through a few preamps lately with an R84. By far the best has
been Vintech X73i, at 300 ohm. Very strong, realistic sound, a little "bigger than life" even. I use it maxed at 70 dB, it's not noisy. Focusrite ISA 428 was pretty nice, also offers variable-Z, as well as 80 dB gain. The R84 can use all of that. I haven't cared for the ribbon with solid state preamps Grace and Klark-Teknik. In my experience, this ribbon mic is very dependent on the preamp impedance, low-Z is definitely better for a stronger, clearer sound. And as mentioned by others, transformer input is usually helpful with ribbons. Steve "Maxy" wrote: I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. |
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#19
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"Maxy" BRBR
So: I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. Are you using the direct output of the micpres direct into your recorder? That improves things _a lot_. And the Soundcraft B400 is probably the best mixer you have listed, it has 72db of gain on the micpres ( better than the Delta and kills the Mackie et al.) Are they really too noisy? Jim Williams at Audio Upgrades has a micpre modification he does on a module for about $150, I might dump the Behringer and Mackie and send in a couple of modules as a modest upgrade (assuming they are yours.) http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejwilliams3/pl1.html A ribbon isn't my first choice for a room mic/s on quiet sources, I would reach for a condensor first. I wish I had another M130 so I could do Blumlein with them! Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#20
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Do you think I colud change the transformes of the ML52?
"WillStG" ha scritto nel messaggio ... "Maxy" BRBR So: I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. Are you using the direct output of the micpres direct into your recorder? That improves things _a lot_. And the Soundcraft B400 is probably the best mixer you have listed, it has 72db of gain on the micpres ( better than the Delta and kills the Mackie et al.) Are they really too noisy? Jim Williams at Audio Upgrades has a micpre modification he does on a module for about $150, I might dump the Behringer and Mackie and send in a couple of modules as a modest upgrade (assuming they are yours.) http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejwilliams3/pl1.html A ribbon isn't my first choice for a room mic/s on quiet sources, I would reach for a condensor first. I wish I had another M130 so I could do Blumlein with them! Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#21
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Do you think I colud change the transformes of the ML52?
"WillStG" ha scritto nel messaggio ... "Maxy" BRBR So: I use oktava ML52 (x4) beyerdynamic M130 (x2) coles 4038 (x1) As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer, soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus. Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments, acoustic guitar, some choir, strings. Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section, strong vocals, electric guitars. The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!! Obviously my preamp noise is very loud. I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones. Are you using the direct output of the micpres direct into your recorder? That improves things _a lot_. And the Soundcraft B400 is probably the best mixer you have listed, it has 72db of gain on the micpres ( better than the Delta and kills the Mackie et al.) Are they really too noisy? Jim Williams at Audio Upgrades has a micpre modification he does on a module for about $150, I might dump the Behringer and Mackie and send in a couple of modules as a modest upgrade (assuming they are yours.) http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejwilliams3/pl1.html A ribbon isn't my first choice for a room mic/s on quiet sources, I would reach for a condensor first. I wish I had another M130 so I could do Blumlein with them! Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#22
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Maxy wrote:
Do you think I colud change the transformes of the ML52? Maybe. Ask me in another six months. After the AES show I will at least have some sort of schedule. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#23
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Maxy wrote:
Do you think I colud change the transformes of the ML52? Maybe. Ask me in another six months. After the AES show I will at least have some sort of schedule. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#24
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Ty Ford wrote:
I've never hear a good acoustic guitar that's helped by a ribbon. Banjo, accordion, yes, not a good acoustic guitar. Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones, through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. -- ha |
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#25
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Ty Ford wrote:
I've never hear a good acoustic guitar that's helped by a ribbon. Banjo, accordion, yes, not a good acoustic guitar. Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones, through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. -- ha |
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#26
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Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones,
through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. Works with percussion too..in context. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
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#27
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Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones,
through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. Works with percussion too..in context. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
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#28
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#29
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#30
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:34:36 -0400, hank alrich wrote
(in article ): Ty Ford wrote: I've never hear a good acoustic guitar that's helped by a ribbon. Banjo, accordion, yes, not a good acoustic guitar. Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones, through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. -- ha Well if you know you want it in the back of the mix....maybe, but in general I'm not a fan. Ty -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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#31
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:34:36 -0400, hank alrich wrote
(in article ): Ty Ford wrote: I've never hear a good acoustic guitar that's helped by a ribbon. Banjo, accordion, yes, not a good acoustic guitar. Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones, through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. -- ha Well if you know you want it in the back of the mix....maybe, but in general I'm not a fan. Ty -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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#32
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On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:42:52 -0400, Blind Joni wrote
(in article ): Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones, through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. Works with percussion too..in context. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 Percussion is totally dif. Ty -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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#33
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On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:42:52 -0400, Blind Joni wrote
(in article ): Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones, through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. Works with percussion too..in context. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 Percussion is totally dif. Ty -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at www.tyford.com |
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#34
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Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones,
through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. Works with percussion too..in context. Percussion is totally dif. Ty I was commenting on the context remark. Normally I would use condensors or dynamics for recording percussion but if I knew that I wanted thme to be darker, puncht and not bright a ribbon might work well in the track. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
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#35
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Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones,
through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven. Works with percussion too..in context. Percussion is totally dif. Ty I was commenting on the context remark. Normally I would use condensors or dynamics for recording percussion but if I knew that I wanted thme to be darker, puncht and not bright a ribbon might work well in the track. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
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#36
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"Maxy" wrote in message ...
Hi everybody, I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my usual preamps.... Impedence problems? What do I use? Thanks Max You need something with a 1:10 step-up ratio transformer at the input. this wil most likely be a tube preamp. in the tube days ribbon mikes were the norm so a lot of those pre's are actually less noisy than the solid state pres *if they have been refurbished* the pres on any op-amp based mixer need to be cranked to full gain, but were designed for high level mikes and will not sound very good. this is also because by raising the gain you are reducing the negative feedback of the op-amps. op-amps without negative feedback sound ****ty ,slow and noisy. worth investing in a tube pre, or modifying a discrete preamp with FET on the first stage by replacing the input transformer with a Jensen 1:10 ratio .. or you can sell your mikes and get Royers -- which have a built in step-up transformer and impedance converter. |
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#37
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"Maxy" wrote in message ...
Hi everybody, I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my usual preamps.... Impedence problems? What do I use? Thanks Max You need something with a 1:10 step-up ratio transformer at the input. this wil most likely be a tube preamp. in the tube days ribbon mikes were the norm so a lot of those pre's are actually less noisy than the solid state pres *if they have been refurbished* the pres on any op-amp based mixer need to be cranked to full gain, but were designed for high level mikes and will not sound very good. this is also because by raising the gain you are reducing the negative feedback of the op-amps. op-amps without negative feedback sound ****ty ,slow and noisy. worth investing in a tube pre, or modifying a discrete preamp with FET on the first stage by replacing the input transformer with a Jensen 1:10 ratio .. or you can sell your mikes and get Royers -- which have a built in step-up transformer and impedance converter. |
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#38
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maxdm wrote:
You need something with a 1:10 step-up ratio transformer at the input. this wil most likely be a tube preamp. The Rolls RP220 actually works like a preamp instead of an effects box when used with low sensitivity ribbon mics. I was surprised how well it did with my M160's. -- ha |
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#39
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maxdm wrote:
You need something with a 1:10 step-up ratio transformer at the input. this wil most likely be a tube preamp. The Rolls RP220 actually works like a preamp instead of an effects box when used with low sensitivity ribbon mics. I was surprised how well it did with my M160's. -- ha |
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#40
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I've got a Beyer M500 on the way. At present I have available a
Soundcraft Spirit FX8 board and a (ahem) Presonus Blue Tube pre. I'm also considering a Studio Projects VTB-1, based on reviews I've read here. I recall someone (was it Harvey Gerst?) saying that the VTB-1 sounded good with his vintage RCA ribbon mic. Would this translate well to the Beyer M500? Budgetary limitations are important at the moment. Also, I haven't seen any posts from Stephen Sank lately. May I assume that he's still doing ribbon mods? If so, how do I contact him? Thanks! Steve |
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