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#1
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
John Williamson wrote:
Their main claims seem to be "louder than normal vinyl" and/or longer playing time with more uniform sound quality over the run. "Louder than normal vinyl" is mostly a non-issue. I can already cut discs louder than anyone can play back. The problem is that the system is rate-limited; the stylus can only move back and forth so fast. So the amount of excursion you can get on a low note is MUCH wider than the amount you can get on a high note. Sure, you can cut at half speed in order to get wider excursions at higher frequencies, but you get discs that nobody can play back because their playback stylus can't follow the groove accurately. Also, looking at the stylus and groove profiles they favour, the stylus will not be able to get past the dirt in the groove without reproducing it along with the required signal. It'll be the same problem as the laser pickups have. I don't see this being particularly worse than normal playback. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#2
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
Scott Dorsey wrote: " I can already cut discs louder than anyone
can play back. " Not that there'd be any point to it, or with doing the same to CD. |
#3
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
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#4
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: " I can already cut discs louder than anyone can play back. " Not that there'd be any point to it, or with doing the same to CD. Sure there is. Cutting with wider excursion doesn't necessarily give you any added distortion. The thing about the LP is that, unlike with the CD, there is no actual reference level and although there are hard limits on excursion due to the design of the cutter, there are many other limits that prevent you from coming near them most of the time. In most cases it's the playback system that limits things; there is no reason to cut a disc that can't be played back without skipping. But I would be willing to cut a lot hotter transients on a disc intended for the audiophile market than for one intended for playback on jukeboxes. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
On 17/04/2018 11:11 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote: Scott Dorsey wrote: " I can already cut discs louder than anyone can play back. " Not that there'd be any point to it, or with doing the same to CD. Sure there is. Cutting with wider excursion doesn't necessarily give you any added distortion. The thing about the LP is that, unlike with the CD, there is no actual reference level and although there are hard limits on excursion due to the design of the cutter, there are many other limits that prevent you from coming near them most of the time. In most cases it's the playback system that limits things; there is no reason to cut a disc that can't be played back without skipping. But I would be willing to cut a lot hotter transients on a disc intended for the audiophile market than for one intended for playback on jukeboxes. --scott Like digital works from the top down, and analogue from the bottom up. Scott is saying that he can get 'higher up' cutting vinyl (presumably versus the averagely good)... Nothing to do with flat tops or average envelope levels sorry thek. geoff |
#6
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
geoff, Scott:
But loudness is perceived by average levels, not peak levels. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
geoff wrote: "Scott is saying that he can get 'higher up' cutting vinyl
(presumably versus the averagely good)... Nothing to do with flat tops or average envelope levels sorry thek. geoff" Still, I'd rather have a soft recording with tons of dynamics that sounds great on a 100+WPChannel amp that one that was produced 'hot' to 'help out a wimpy 10WPChannel off-brand party favor bought in a market stall or at Target. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
geoff wrote:
On 17/04/2018 11:11 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: wrote: Scott Dorsey wrote: " I can already cut discs louder than anyone can play back. " Not that there'd be any point to it, or with doing the same to CD. Sure there is. Cutting with wider excursion doesn't necessarily give you any added distortion. The thing about the LP is that, unlike with the CD, there is no actual reference level and although there are hard limits on excursion due to the design of the cutter, there are many other limits that prevent you from coming near them most of the time. In most cases it's the playback system that limits things; there is no reason to cut a disc that can't be played back without skipping. But I would be willing to cut a lot hotter transients on a disc intended for the audiophile market than for one intended for playback on jukeboxes. Like digital works from the top down, and analogue from the bottom up. Scott is saying that he can get 'higher up' cutting vinyl (presumably versus the averagely good)... Kind of. You can think of the LP as being slew-limited. It's not like regular analogue media. You have more headroom at low frequencies than at high ones because the limitation isn't -total excursion- but how fast you can move the stylus. Nothing to do with flat tops or average envelope levels sorry thek. The cool thing with the LP is that you can have peaks that far exceed the average level as long as you time them right so that the peaks on adjacent grooves don't hit one another. So aggressive limiting doesn't actually make anything any louder (although a little light limiting can make discs easier to track). --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
In article ,
wrote: geoff, Scott: But loudness is perceived by average levels, not peak levels. Yes, but limiting peak levels down doesn't let you increase your average levels with the LP. Because it's not total excursion that limits your cutting levels. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
Scott Dorsey wrote: "...it's not total excursion that limits your
cutting levels. " Ok, you lost me with the above! |
#11
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
Thekma wrote in message
... Scott Dorsey wrote: "...it's not total excursion that limits your cutting levels. " Ok, you lost me with the above! Uuuh ... you've been lost since you first showed up here, li'l buddy. WFKJS. DFR. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
Mike Rivers wrote: ". So you could cut a crazy groove with a laser and play
it back with a laser (every hear of a CD?)," Uhhh, CDs don't have grooves, they have pits and lands. No need to worry about 'throwing' a laser read-head with those! Thanks for the clarification on excursions though. So it is not the total width of excursion, it's the velocity(change in direction) within said excursion. |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
On 4/17/2018 11:02 AM, wrote:
Uhhh, CDs don't have grooves, they have pits and lands. No need to worry about 'throwing' a laser read-head with those! Pits, grooves, whatever. I only used the CD as an example of a master that's made with a laser to press a piece of plastic that's played with a laser. You could play a phonograph record with a laser in several ways, some of which are even in practice today, though too expensive for even the most irrational audiophile. They're good for recovering sound from "unplayable" records like lacquers where the lacquer coating is peeling off the base material, or cylinders which are frequently eccentric. But that's not to say that a less expensive system couldn't be developed if there was a real need. Still, why would anyone want a complicated mastering and playback system that won't buy you anything that a properly mastered CD and a decent player will? Well, just because, I guess. -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#15
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
And to make
things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on playback. and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based. mark |
#16
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
wrote:
And to make things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on playback. and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based. Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again. You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction, and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of a safe operating area curve for audio. And it wouldn't be SO bad except that the shape of the curve is different on the inner and outer grooves! --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
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#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 2:59:53 PM UTC-4, John Williamson wrote:
On 17/04/2018 18:15, wrote: And to make things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on playback. and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based. mark That was also what happened in the days of ceramic Measurement (dB) Vin = 28 Volts The way they worked made the output almost independent of the frequency for a given displacement of the stylus, assuming the input impedance of the amplifier was high enough. For most of them, loading the cartridge with a 47 kilohm resistor almost made the output curve match the RIAA curve with a properly loaded magnetic cartridge. -- Tciao for Now! John. wow you are bringing back memories.. I remember as a kid first reading about RIAA EQ and trying to figure out why my record player seemed to work OK without any RIAA EQ in the electronics. It had a ceramic cartridge. Then when I got a real turntable with a magnetic cartridge, it all started to make sense. mark |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
On 17 Apr 2018 14:53:23 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote: And to make things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on playback. and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based. Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again. You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction, and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of a safe operating area curve for audio. If a cutter would work at half the speed, wouldn't that fix these problems? Never mind that no playback cartridge could play it... Mat Nieuwenhoven |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote:
On 17 Apr 2018 14:53:23 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote: wrote: And to make things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on playback. and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based. Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again. You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction, and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of a safe operating area curve for audio. If a cutter would work at half the speed, wouldn't that fix these problems? Never mind that no playback cartridge could play it... I said precisely that earlier in this thread. I don't have the pulleys and the EQ module for half-speed mastering, but they exist, and folks have used them. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#21
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
On 20 Apr 2018 08:43:53 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: On 17 Apr 2018 14:53:23 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote: wrote: And to make things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on playback. and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based. Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again. You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction, and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of a safe operating area curve for audio. If a cutter would work at half the speed, wouldn't that fix these problems? Never mind that no playback cartridge could play it... I said precisely that earlier in this thread. I don't have the pulleys and the EQ module for half-speed mastering, but they exist, and folks have used them. My bad, I missed it earlier. Mat Nieuwenhoven. |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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HD Vinyl - WTF?
On 20/04/2018 10:43 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: On 17 Apr 2018 14:53:23 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote: wrote: And to make things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on playback. and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based. Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again. You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction, and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of a safe operating area curve for audio. If a cutter would work at half the speed, wouldn't that fix these problems? Never mind that no playback cartridge could play it... I said precisely that earlier in this thread. I don't have the pulleys and the EQ module for half-speed mastering, but they exist, and folks have used them. Yep, half speed mastering and direct metal mastering were just a couple of techniques used to try and get vinyl to approach something resembling true HiFi back in the day. Cartridges like the Shure V15VMR did a good job of tracking them if you could afford them, and the regular cost of a replacement stylus. Then we got a distribution format with far more dynamic range, much flatter frequency response, MUCH less distortion, no wow or flutter, no rumble, no surface noise, no pinch effect....... Naturally some preferred the inferior format, and still do of course :-) Trevor. |
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