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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 8:09:16 PM UTC-8, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Audio_Empire" wrote in message





Someone is still not "getting it", I think. Subconscious differences
that
stimulate the pleasure centers in the brain may not show up as
differences
in the normal sense.


Cite?


Mark DeBellis.


Who is he that he can be reasonably cited as an reliable authority?

I want to see a CV or let's stop talking about made-up science.

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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

On Friday, January 11, 2013 7:20:46 AM UTC-8, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mark DeBellis" wrote in message

...



I would be interested in your thoughts about the following.



First, it seems to me that it's possible that there could be two

signals, say three minutes of music each, where I can't distinguish

one signal from the other when I compare them, switching back and

forth, but where, nonetheless, I get greater pleasure from listening

to the first one (in its entirety) than to the second.



The above is obviously self-contradictory.


Oh? I don't think that's necessarily true at all. People find that they "like"
one thing over another without being able to tell anybody why all the time.

If you can't distinguish the two signals by any conscious means, how can you
distinguish them and consciously know it?


I don't recall anybody saying that one could. Mark's point was, I believe, that
often, one audio component will give greater listening pleasure than another.
The listener might find that this phenomenon finds him (or her) concentrating
on the music and forgetting about the equipment, or perhaps he/she finds
themselves being able to listen longer to one component than to others and not
really being able to put their finger upon why one component causes listening
fatigue very quickly, while another does not.
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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:12:01 PM UTC-5, Audio_Empire wrote:

But, as interesting as the referenced test is, it has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion
as far as I can see. Am I missing some hidden meaning in the test? If so, I guess I'm just too dense
to see it.


What are you talking about? YOU'RE the one who introduced the subject of CD/LP comparisons into this thread. That this was ridiculous and irrelevant was MY point.

bob

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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

In article , Audio_Empire
wrote:

On Friday, January 11, 2013 7:20:46 AM UTC-8, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mark DeBellis" wrote in message

...


First, it seems to me that it's possible that there could be two
signals, say three minutes of music each, where I can't distinguish
one signal from the other when I compare them, switching back and
forth, but where, nonetheless, I get greater pleasure from listening
to the first one (in its entirety) than to the second.

The above is obviously self-contradictory.


Oh? I don't think that's necessarily true at all. People find that they
"like"
one thing over another without being able to tell anybody why all the time.


Nobody is asking why they like one of the samples, merely that if they
like X in an ABX test, then they should like either A or B, because one
of them is identical to X. If they like X but like neither A nor B,
then the either the test is faulty and X is not identical to one of A
or B, or the subject is using some random decision criteria not
associated with the audio signal on which to base their decision. If
they like X and like both A and B, then the audio signals are not
sufficiently different to make a difference in perceived sound quality.

--
Jim Gibson

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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

On 1/11/2013 1:26 PM, Audio_Empire wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2013 7:20:46 AM UTC-8, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mark DeBellis" wrote in message

...



I would be interested in your thoughts about the following.



First, it seems to me that it's possible that there could be two

signals, say three minutes of music each, where I can't distinguish

one signal from the other when I compare them, switching back and

forth, but where, nonetheless, I get greater pleasure from listening

to the first one (in its entirety) than to the second.



The above is obviously self-contradictory.


Oh? I don't think that's necessarily true at all. People find that they "like"
one thing over another without being able to tell anybody why all the time.


Precisely. But the "why" is irrelevant in this context. No matter the
reason, if you consistently "like" A over B, you clearly have identified
a difference. *That* is the point *I* was making earlier.

Keith


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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

On Friday, January 11, 2013 1:05:54 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:12:01 PM UTC-5, Audio_Empire wrote:



But, as interesting as the referenced test is, it has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion


as far as I can see. Am I missing some hidden meaning in the test? If so, I guess I'm just too dense


to see it.




What are you talking about? YOU'RE the one who introduced the subject of CD/LP comparisons into this thread. That this was ridiculous and irrelevant was MY point.



bob


But I wasn't comparing the record with the CD in the normal sense. I merely said that the Classic Records single-side, 200 gram, 45 RPM remastering of that Mercury title gave me more listening
pleasure than did the CD even though they were remastered to CD and to LP by the same, original
producer. I said nothing about doing a DBT of the two, or even measuring the two. The only
comparison I made was that even though the CD is quieter, will play all the way through without
having to change the record FOUR times, and sounds excellent, I prefer to listen to the pain-in-the-ass
LPs because they give me more musical pleasure. It was one of two examples of Mark's original
hypothesis that I gave.
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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

On Friday, January 11, 2013 8:28:45 PM UTC-8, KH wrote:
On 1/11/2013 1:26 PM, Audio_Empire wrote:

On Friday, January 11, 2013 7:20:46 AM UTC-8, Arny Krueger wrote:


"Mark DeBellis" wrote in message
...

I would be interested in your thoughts about the following.

First, it seems to me that it's possible that there could be two
signals, say three minutes of music each, where I can't distinguish
one signal from the other when I compare them, switching back and
forth, but where, nonetheless, I get greater pleasure from listening
to the first one (in its entirety) than to the second.

The above is obviously self-contradictory.


Oh? I don't think that's necessarily true at all. People find that they "like"
one thing over another without being able to tell anybody why all the time.


Precisely. But the "why" is irrelevant in this context. No matter the
reason, if you consistently "like" A over B, you clearly have identified
a difference. *That* is the point *I* was making earlier.


I think that the point is that you have clearly "identified" nothing,
You have merely noticed a phenomenon. When one has identified a
difference, one can point to it and say something like: "This
component has noticeable high-frequency distortion". or "this
component's frequency response is too forward in the upper midrange".
That's what I consider "identifying" a difference. Noticing that one
gets less listening fatigue from this component, or more enjoyment
from that one without being able to actually pin-down the cause, is
something else again,

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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

On 1/12/2013 11:04 AM, Audio_Empire wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2013 8:28:45 PM UTC-8, KH wrote:
On 1/11/2013 1:26 PM, Audio_Empire wrote:

On Friday, January 11, 2013 7:20:46 AM UTC-8, Arny Krueger wrote:


"Mark DeBellis" wrote in message
...

I would be interested in your thoughts about the following.

First, it seems to me that it's possible that there could be two
signals, say three minutes of music each, where I can't distinguish
one signal from the other when I compare them, switching back and
forth, but where, nonetheless, I get greater pleasure from listening
to the first one (in its entirety) than to the second.

The above is obviously self-contradictory.

Oh? I don't think that's necessarily true at all. People find that they "like"
one thing over another without being able to tell anybody why all the time.


Precisely. But the "why" is irrelevant in this context. No matter the
reason, if you consistently "like" A over B, you clearly have identified
a difference. *That* is the point *I* was making earlier.


I think that the point is that you have clearly "identified" nothing,
You have merely noticed a phenomenon. When one has identified a
difference, one can point to it and say something like: "This
component has noticeable high-frequency distortion". or "this
component's frequency response is too forward in the upper midrange".
That's what I consider "identifying" a difference. Noticing that one
gets less listening fatigue from this component, or more enjoyment
from that one without being able to actually pin-down the cause, is
something else again,

You've identified a "difference", not *the* difference. Once you do
that, *then* you can look for the cause. The OP was postulating that
two presentations "...where I can't distinguish one signal from the
other when I compare them, switching back and forth, but where,
nonetheless, I get greater pleasure from listening to the first one (in
its entirety) than to the second."

This *is* self-contradictory in that all he would need to do is listen
to the two, in there entirety, with blind controls, and the difference
would be obvious as a preferential difference. Whether fatigue or
whatever cause, if you consistently prefer A over B, under controlled
conditions, you have identified a difference.

Keith

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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

"Audio_Empire" wrote in message
...
On Friday, January 11, 2013 7:20:46 AM UTC-8, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mark DeBellis" wrote in message

...



I would be interested in your thoughts about the following.



First, it seems to me that it's possible that there could be two

signals, say three minutes of music each, where I can't distinguish

one signal from the other when I compare them, switching back and

forth, but where, nonetheless, I get greater pleasure from listening

to the first one (in its entirety) than to the second.



The above is obviously self-contradictory.


Oh? I don't think that's necessarily true at all. People find that they
"like"
one thing over another without being able to tell anybody why all the
time.


And then we categorize it as a disconnected personal preference and are
generally wise enough to not attach any other meaning to it.

You like blue? Good! ;-)

If you can't distinguish the two signals by any conscious means, how can
you
distinguish them and consciously know it?


I don't recall anybody saying that one could.


Then the claim has doubly self-destructed itself.

There are such things as useless opinons, and I think we have just
identified a whole class of them.



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Default A Brief History of CD DBTs

On Friday, January 11, 2013 12:25:59 PM UTC-8, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Audio_Empire" wrote in message

...

On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 8:09:16 PM UTC-8, Arny Krueger wrote:


"Audio_Empire" wrote in message

Someone is still not "getting it", I think. Subconscious
differences that stimulate the pleasure centers in the brain
may not show up as differences in the normal sense.


Cite?


Mark DeBellis.


Who is he that he can be reasonably cited as an reliable authority?
I want to see a CV or let's stop talking about made-up science.


He is someone who has noticed a phenomenon that he cannot explain.
I too have noted this phenomenon on occasion, I suspect that many
have. Just because there are no CVs doesn't mean that the phenomenon
doesn't exist. His hypothesis may or may not be correct, but that's no
reason for anyone to dismiss the man's observations out of hand.
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