[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"Iain Churchus"

"Phil Allison "

Acetate or vinyl coated on a metal plate and cut by a standard disk lathe
produces the same result as the very best LPs.

Furthermore, your statement above is nonsense.

** No it is not - you ****ing LIAR.


The LP, which is three or four electro-mechanical
processes further down the line, is greatly inferior
to the acetate master

** Absolute LIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

which has a lower noise floor,
and is almost totally free of ticks.

** Makes the transcription disk near perfect.

Thankyou for proving my case.

You ****ING LIAR !!!!!!!



No, I 'raised' the story of Bing Crosby using tape for his radio
broadcasts as a testament to it's fidelity.

Indeed.

** ****ing BULL**** !!

Crosby had a very high level of aural perception.


** ****ing BULL**** !!


Cutter head technology at that time was not "high fidelity"
and 14" transcription discs were cut at 33 1/3 or 16rpm.
The quality was inferior to tape,

** ****ing BULL**** !!

Eat **** and DIE you mother ****ing CRIMINAL pommy **** .




.... Phil

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches"

"Phil Allison "

Acetate or vinyl coated on a metal plate and cut by a standard disk
lathe
produces the same result as the very best LPs.

Furthermore, your statement above is nonsense.

** No it is not (expletive snipped)

Unfortunately it is, and for the very reason I quoted
which you have now deemed necessary to delete :-)



The LP, which is three or four electro-mechanical
processes further down the line, is greatly inferior
to the acetate master

** Absolute LIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Common knowledge. You can prove it for yourself
by simple comparison.


which has a lower noise floor,
and is almost totally free of ticks.

** Makes the transcription disk near perfect.

Certainly better than the vinyl pressing, but not
anything like as good as analogue tape. Remember too
that in the era which we are discussing (early 50s)
cutter head technology was still being developed.

Crosby had a very high level of aural perception.

** ****ing BULL**** !!

Again a clearly documented and well known fact.
Flipper has, I see, pointed you to some good links.
Read and enjoy. Mr Crosby was a remarkable man.

Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...


An argument based on Hitler's speeches alone is utterly insane.

Just a simple example.

** A blatantly fallacious and irrelevant one.

Neither fallacious nor irrelevant. The difference between
taped broadcasts and those recorded to transcription disc
were clearly audible even back in those days, in UK listening
stations.


When tape equipment is removed from the process of making LPs, as it was
for " digital" recordings sold in the early 1970s by Denon and others
and
also for all the " Direct to Disk " records - sound quality took a
*very
dramatic* leap forward.

You yourself said we were discussing the situation in the early 1950s so
why are you suddenly taking about LPs and 1970s Denon?


** Cos it proves the POINT that even with 20 additional years of tape
and tape machine development it was FAR better not to use the stinking
piles of **** at all.

OK. Let's discuss this rationally for a moment, if you can.

Has it not ocurred to you that direct to disk recording was
marketing strategy? I wonder if I were to present you with
two vinyl pressings of the same recording, one made direct
to disc, and the other carefully mastered to Agfa PEM468
on a Studer A80/II with Doby SR and then cut to disc in
the standard fashion, if you could tell the difference between
them? If you could, there is every reason to think that you
would choose the version made via tape, because the
dynamic control feeding gain information to the pitch control
servo via an advance head on the tape machine, gives greater
possibility to accomodate larger changes in dynamic than
direct to disc fixed pitch ever could.

So what, in addition to sales were the objectives of
direct to disc recording. The idea was to leave out two
stages, two links in the chain - the multitrack analogue tape,
and the stereo analogue tape master to which it had been
mixed. Tape has a frequency response similar to cutter
heads used in the 1970s, but a noise floor considerably
better than an acetate master and far better than any
vinyl pressing. But by leaving out the tape stages,
they hoped to also avoid the 2% disortion of a fully
modulated analogue tape.

D to D demo discs were indeed common.
Even Peter Walker of Quad had an orchestral direct
to disc recording which he used for demonstrations.
It was made in Decca III studio. I was one of the
engineers. It was techincally excellent, with a musical
performance as artistically flat as the disc on which it
was recorded.

Direct to disc had a huge problem. The chances
of a flawless performance of 25 mins in duration were
pretty slim. French horn and trumpet players in particular
were under considerale duress - far more so than in a concert
situation. It is a well-known phenomenon that in a live
concert, where the visual reference is just as important as
the aural, small errors in playing pass, and are gone in an
instant, often un-noticed. But on a recording, those same
errors seem to grow exponentially each time one listens
to the recording, to such an extent that you are soon
waiting for them from bar one!

The other major disadvantageof direct to disc recording was
the limited genre of music which could be recorded. No
bricklaying (overdubs) were possible, neither was any form
of compex post production. These are things that add greatly
to the perceived quality of a recording.

Such LPs became the standard for hi-fi demos and are a perfect
demonstration of how even the very much better tape recorders of the
1970s
were still way inferior to good old vinyl.

That's incorrect.

** The point is overwhelmingly CORRECT !!

It is incorrect, and I have clearly stated why.

The recording industry standard tape recorder
even as far back as 1965 was the Studer C37. It had a SNR
of -70dB (published spec) even without Dolby A.

** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!

Despite your lack of experience with professional
recording equipment, you can confirm my statement by
looking at the Studer spec. The C37 like its multitrack
cousin the J37 was a valve recorder.

The rest of your "learned response" snipped.
Expletives, text in capital letters and strings of
exclamation marks are no substitute for a rational
well-argued viewpoint.

Iain

[Patrick Turner]

On Jun 15, 6:49*pm, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"Patrick Turner" wrote in message

...
On Jun 15, 4:57 am, flipper wrote:



Now we have rap and a whole pile of "musical" noise which is best left
unpurchased and un-listened to in order for sanity to prevail.

Patrick, you sound like a grumpy old pensioner, repeating
the complaints of older people of at least three generations.
I can remember my gradfather telling me how his parents
had tried to forbid him from dancing the charleston:-)

Yup, grumpy. But I was the same at 17. I thought most rock'n roll was
utter crap. I agreed with the older folks who had a bit of class and I
liked folk, jazz and classical. I bought about 10 rock LPs in the late
70s. None since. Bull**** is Bull****, right!

And when Mick Jagger screamed at us all like a tomcat with cracker up
its arse about not being able to get any satisfaction, I wondered WTF
was wrong with the man. Just wanted money. ****. Smart arse ****. Not
from me would most of these clowns ever get a big quid.
Then we has Fleetwood Mac. Hmm, so smooth. All cocained up, totally
all BS, I had no respect for them.

But then, a generation later, he told my father not to listen to
"that fearful racket" (jazz). My father in turn asked me,
"What do you hear in that rubbish" (he was referring to
Elvis Presley: "All Shook Up")

I hated Elvis. The most affectatious fraud of a man. Total BS.



Great
fidelity though. Perfectly re-produced ****. All those digital effects
such as altering a singer's pitch to make then sound like they are not
off key are conveyed perfectly to us.

Digital technology has given us post production tools that were
previously only dreamed of. *So why should we not use then? I
agree that there is no technical substitute for talent. * But then,
in general terms, the level of acceptance of the public is pretty
low. That's a fact of life.

The consumers of big cities
never really socialise with anyone around and rarely go to concerts -
too much fear, anxiety, distrust and alienation.

I don't know where you live, but in this city of 500 000 people,
concerts are well attended, and people queue up to support
live performances.

We have 350,000 here but big concerts only once every few months and
they do old favourites older people have heard before.
Then its costs $100 to get in. Often its a full house, mainly old
folks who pay less.
So there's SFA music compared to old europe.

Recorded music is king where I live.

Here in the EU great emphasis is placed on music, arts and
culture. *Every time I visit Prague (Czech Republic) I am amazed
by the number of concerts etc. Last time I was there, I had a
choice of fifteen classical/baroque/light music concerts, and that
was on a Wednesday night! Every second young person is
carrying a violin case.- They can't all contaon Thomson machine
guns!!

And the majority
still does not mind crap sound.

The use of CD of in cars, and the prevalence of mp3
players with ear-buds have probably lowered the standards
of expectation. *Also, few people these days have a
dedicated listening room - music has become like wallpaper
so that to many people "listening" is a secondary task while
they do something else.

But I wonder if that really matters, as long as they listen
and enjoy the process.

Nothing matters much if your'e 20. Whatever. Young folks just go along
to any thing dumb, gotta do the social rounds while texting
continuously. But no use me going to Farcebook or ****ter, gotta say
things with less than 140 letters - utter crap - enforced dumbnation.


Walker may have sold 96,000 Quad-II
amps, but how many millions of ppl became aware of Quad products and
didn't buy them?

Don't you think *that sales of 96 000 units was a
remarkble achievement at that time? *Quad had
an enviable reputation.

Indeed remarkable. So is the fact that McDonalds has sold 2,589
billion hamburgers. But last time i went to Mc D's for a feed I felt
sick afterwards, and ripped off by fake food. That was 20 years ago. I
cook much better for me than they do.

There seem to be no comparable figures for the other
major UK manufacturers, Leak, Radford, Armstrong,
Bradmatic, Bryan, Clarke and Smith, Kerr McCosh etc
etc etc.

I couldn't care less about huge sales figures. Its what's under the
bonnet that counts. I don't care if 250,000 turn up to a rock concert.
Its still always crap, and I've never ever wanted to go to a big gig.

Patrick Turner.

Iain

[John Byrns]

In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

Flipper
and a 40's transcription disc is NOT an 'LP' nor is it an LP master.

Phil
** But it is virtually the same and so has the same qualities.

As different as chalk and cheese. Cutter head technology was
then still fairly primitive, most transcription discs (at least the
ones I have seen) were cut at fixed pitch with no radius compensation
so the sound quality deteriorated towards the centre of the disc.

I'm not a disk cutting expert and don't know precisely what you mean by "radius
compensation", however here in the USA at least RCA offered an accessory for
their transcription lathes that changed the equalization towards the inner
grooves, increasing the high frequencies to eliminate the high frequency losses
at the inner grooves.

Which reminds me that in all this talk about 1930s and 40s transcriptions vs.
LPs it hasn't been mentioned that transcriptions were cut with "standard"
grooves, while LPs were cut with "microgrooves".

Also it is my understanding that for a number of years before the introduction
of the LP, Columbia ran a transcription lathe in parallel with the mastering
lathe for their 78s, and that many of the first LPs were cut from these
transcription disks.

Since Bing Crosby has been mentioned several times in connection with the
development of tape technology, it is worth noting that the first year or so of
Crosby's Philco Radio Time show, 1946 IIRC, was done on transcription disks
while the tape machine was under development.

--
Regards,

John Byrns

Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"flipper the total ****wit "


By the mid 50s tape and LP had replaced the transcription disc

** So ****ing what ?

Why do you think they were GONE?


** Tape is more convenient and cheaper to use.

Editing is simple, tape can be erased and re-used.

Thank you. That's precisely what I referred to as one of tapes'
"contributions."

** What a massive LIAR you are.


..... Phil

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"flipper the total ****wit "

By the mid 50s tape and LP had replaced the transcription disc

** So ****ing what ?

Why do you think they were GONE?


** Tape is more convenient and cheaper to use.

Editing is simple, tape can be erased and re-used.

Thank you. That's precisely what I referred to as one of tapes'
"contributions."

** What a massive LIAR you are.



..... Phil

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

Flipper
and a 40's transcription disc is NOT an 'LP' nor is it an LP master.

Phil
** But it is virtually the same and so has the same qualities.

As different as chalk and cheese. Cutter head technology was
then still fairly primitive, most transcription discs (at least the
ones I have seen) were cut at fixed pitch with no radius compensation
so the sound quality deteriorated towards the centre of the disc.

I'm not a disk cutting expert and don't know precisely what you mean by
"radius
compensation", however here in the USA at least RCA offered an accessory
for
their transcription lathes that changed the equalization towards the inner
grooves, increasing the high frequencies to eliminate the high frequency
losses
at the inner grooves.

Hello John. Yes, that's what is known as radius compensation.

Which reminds me that in all this talk about 1930s and 40s transcriptions
vs.
LPs it hasn't been mentioned that transcriptions were cut with "standard"
grooves, while LPs were cut with "microgrooves".

I certainly metioned it.

Not only were they standard groove but fixed pitch too.
One can't be adamant as there were probably many different
ways of working around the world, but in the UK, transcriptions
made in the era we are talking about were either 33 1/3 or 16 rpm.

Variable pitch only really became standard practice with the
advent of tape machines with an advance playback head to feed
the servo motor.

On smaller earlier lathes, like the MSS I owned when a student,
it was possible to "open up" the pitch, manually by rotating a
small handle rather like the one fitted to wind-up gramophones.
It meant that you had to listen to the recording first, and, with
the aid of a stopwatch make a note of the loud passages.

In those days, most students of what we now call recording arts,
could read music, so if a score of the work was available,
it was quicker to mark it up in red pencil. Halcyon days!

Also it is my understanding that for a number of years before the
introduction
of the LP, Columbia ran a transcription lathe in parallel with the
mastering
lathe for their 78s, and that many of the first LPs were cut from these
transcription disks.

Interesting.
The big problem with transcriptions and masters is that they
had such a limited shelf life. At Decca, LP disk masters
were collected twice a day to be taken strasight to
the factory. No more master cutting was done after the 5pm
collection. We used to do practice and trial cuts in the
evenings in preparation for the next day. So there was always
considerable pressure to meet the schedules, and make sure
that the masters were ready, packed and "caught the van"

Since Bing Crosby has been mentioned several times in connection with the
development of tape technology, it is worth noting that the first year or
so of
Crosby's Philco Radio Time show, 1946 IIRC, was done on transcription
disks
while the tape machine was under development.

The story as I have always understood it, is that
Bing was always keen to embrace the latest technology.
He requested the use of transcription discs by NBC
for his broadcasts, and when his request was denied he
too a temporary respite from broadcasting.

Then, as a result of his work with Alexander Poniatov, the
founder of Ampex, Bing, now with ABC ,wanted to end
the use of transcription discs and use tape instead. At this
stage, only a very few machines had been built, but then
Crosby himself placed the initial large order which got
Ampex going as a commercial tape machine manufacturer.

He was not only a fine singer, but a very perceptive man.


Regards
Iain

[Patrick Turner]

I have my reasons which I've explained in enough detail to lead you
away to a life liberated from the adictions to consumerism and bean
counter designed - crap - of course.

Doesn't matter one iota what you imagine your 'reasons' to be, the
fact remains that Mr. Crap poster boy complaining about 'crap' is a
joke.

Deal with the facts please. Consumerism and all manner of using and
wasting of resources will ruin the planet.

The food at supermarkets is largely poisonous. Packets of this and
that, all fulla additives dyes and - crap - and junk and of course
invented by marketeers and bean counters.

crap

How to people get all their modern diseases?

As opposed to 'the old fashioned way' like bubonic plague, to name but
one of thousands?

But rates of obesity are endemic. Americans eat enough for 2 normal
ppl.

Maybe you are a big fat lazy ******* who consumes too much and you
don't like someone coming along to limit all your actvities.

Too ****ing bad.

(1), they have no will
power, (2), the quality of the food is extremely poor.

The fact of the matter is the 'modern' food supply is infinitely more
abundant and safer than ever before, and average life spans have
increased dramatically.

In other words, you're spewing crap.

And all modern diseaes, rich mens' ills are increasing.



If evryone was like me though, the world would become utterly moribund
and ****ed right up. All the car makers and food makers and nearly all
other industries would go broke leaving a lotta ppl twiddling their
thumbs. The devil makes work for idle ppl and sure enough they'd try
real hard to beat a world like I'd like to see, and so isn't every
pleased all are not like me? You bet they are.

No one would be 'idle'. They'd be spending every minute of the day
scraping just to survive and there's no 'speculation' about it needed
as we've been there, done that, was why we invented all the things you
despise.

But its natural to use the calories we consume, and quite un-natural
to get fat and need doctors to get to 80. The things I despise are
wisely left alone - you'd live a bit longer. But you just don't get
it.

This does not mean I have to be like the vast majority with a weak
will and addctions to what's no good for me.

Your egoist chest thumping doesn't impress me one bit and as I've told
you a hundred times before I couldn't care less how you chose to live
your own life. What I object to is you babbling crap.

I know you hate my OT lifestyle concerns and its because you have such
a horrid life that what I say threatens your serenity to do whatever
you ****en well like and to hell with everyone else. I plan to babble
crap as you put it, ie, explain a different way of being until I
die.

What I say may be utterly irrelevant to YOU, but not to other people
who don't mind when I drift off topic a bit. Sure I'm here mainly for
the triodes but man does not live by triodes alone, he may appreciate
many other things, like bread, wine, good food, fair politcal systems,
leaving the world in better shape than when you arrived, and so forth,
etc, et all.....

A spade is a spade no matter how many times you call it a bean counter
and you wouldn't be bothered with me explaining how wrong you are if
you didn't find it necessary to proselytize reams of irrelevant
bull**** no matter what the topic.

A spade exists only in the eye of the beholder. Arguments aplenty
ensure because one man's facts are another man's opinions. So no need
to lecture me about spades being spades, because anyone listening to
you will disagree.


I'm not 'happy' with the slow demise of USENET either but the fact of
the matter is not enough people use it to justify the expense.

A bean counter thus has recomended the change to USENET use.
Communication design by bean counters.

"Beliefs" are cheap. It's thinking that 'costs'.

Bean counters get rid of beliefs. Then beliefs don't cost anything.

and the world has room for vastly differing ideas,
philosophies, methods of bean counting, food consumptions, amp designs
etc.

Go explain that to Islamofascists.

It would be a long time before everyone decides to adopt all your
ideas about life.

In the meantime, millions of ppl with vastly different beliefs will
muddle on apart or together and continue the trend, rather like
monkeys have for 40 million years so far. And most ppl get ignored
eventually no matter what stupid labels get stuck onto them.

Have you realised you are only 1 / 7,000,000,000 of the human race?
That's SFA. Each one of us is at -194dB.

A long time ago I didn't think there was NFB in a triode. But a
russian guy, Dennis Assenayev persued me with a polite and un-
relenting vigilance over the issue and converted me. He was right
because the evidence prooved it. I like evidence.

The "evidence" is that you reject evidence.

No need to tell lies as a reply which directly contradicts the truth.

I said : "He was right because the evidence prooved it. I like
evidence."

Patrick Turner.