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#41
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"GregS" wrote in message ... In article , "Bill Graham" wrote: "AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 11:38:32 +1000, Mr.T MrT@home wrote: I doubt you will find any stereo separation below 50Hz on any music CD either, and definitely not on any vinyl source. So there is no difference between twin mono (real) SUB woofers, and true stereo for all practical purposes anyway. Unless your room is at least 50' wide, it won't be heard in stereo. Wavelength for a 50hz wave is 22'. Let it bounce off the near walls and it will definately not be stereo by the time it reaches the listener. If you can hear where sound is coming from your subs, it is because of harmonics above about 80-100hz. Not sure how relevant this is to your discussion, but I play a trumpet, and I amplify my sound sometimes, so I can use special effects, and I have to cut off anything below about 100 Hz, in order to eliminate the valve clunk I get when my valves return to their highest, "relaxed" position.....There is a lot of low frequency noise in any recorded band. Not just valve "clunk", but guitar fretboard noise and other stuff like that.....I can get rid of most of it with a low cut filter, but not all of it..... I used to try and play trumpet. You could cut it off way higher I'm sure. I have in the past used signal generators and try to find how high before localization occurs. 70 Hz and below is pretty safe. Even my cheap signal generator has .5% distortion, but my old HP does way better. Any little noise can be localized, especially woofer wind or basket noise. greg Yes, I could cut it higher, but I notice a lot of devices have a built-in filter that cuts the lows off at around 80 to 100 Hz, and, since there is no music below there, that's about where I have my gate set....It's just that a lot of devices and microphones advertize good frequency response down to below 50 Hz, and I wonder why anyone would pay any significant amount of extra money to buy such a device, when all you get at those frequencies is noise anyway? AC hum is 60 Hz, and nobody would want to amplify that.....Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms......It's just that when you are trying to maximize your performance per unit dollar, you sometimes think about these things.....I have five cats who can, (I'm sure) hear sounds in the over 10 KHz range, but they don't appreciate most of the music I mess with....:^) |
#42
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
Bill Graham wrote:
.Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms..... You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics |
#43
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy wrote:
Bill Graham wrote: .Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms..... You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. Just noise. |
#44
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"dizzy" wrote in message ... Bill Graham wrote: .Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms..... You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics Yes.....Barely audible, at least to me....I do notice that when I was younger, I had little or no trouble being able to tell the difference between real sounds, and sounds that came from some electronic reproductive device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused, and think that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually something behind me.) So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly, when the noise just came from the TV or whatever.....My cats, on the other hand, pay no attention to any program material from the TV, but should something real happen, they perk right up immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise. |
#45
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:05:10 -0700, Bill Graham wrote:
.... device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused, and think that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually something behind me.) So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly, when the noise just came from the TV or whatever.....My cats, on the other hand, pay no attention to any program material from the TV, but should something real happen, they perk right up immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise. I have a phone app that generates high pitched noise and it is amusing seeing who in a crowd can hear it. Unsurprisingly, the name of the app is "Teen Repellant" |
#46
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:05:10 -0700, Bill Graham wrote: ... device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused, and think that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually something behind me.) So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly, when the noise just came from the TV or whatever.....My cats, on the other hand, pay no attention to any program material from the TV, but should something real happen, they perk right up immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise. I have a phone app that generates high pitched noise and it is amusing seeing who in a crowd can hear it. Unsurprisingly, the name of the app is "Teen Repellant" One of my cats (B-K, whom I picked up in a Burger King parking lot) comes when I call him with a "dog whistle" It's amazing how far away he can hear that whistle. All I have to do is leave the front door ajar, and blow that whistle, and he shows up in about 10 or 15 minutes..... |
#47
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
AZ Nomad wrote in
: snip Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. Just noise. According to your esoteric statistics, even people over 25 will hear about half of that "noise". I can hear only to about 6KHz, and *I* can tell the difference between something that is 20-*TEN*K and something that is 20- 20K. -- Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to reality. |
#48
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
On 9/9/2010 5:24 PM Bill Graham spake thus:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:05:10 -0700, Bill Graham wrote: ... device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused, and think that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually something behind me.) So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly, when the noise just came from the TV or whatever.....My cats, on the other hand, pay no attention to any program material from the TV, but should something real happen, they perk right up immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise. I have a phone app that generates high pitched noise and it is amusing seeing who in a crowd can hear it. Unsurprisingly, the name of the app is "Teen Repellant" One of my cats (B-K, whom I picked up in a Burger King parking lot) comes when I call him with a "dog whistle" It's amazing how far away he can hear that whistle. All I have to do is leave the front door ajar, and blow that whistle, and he shows up in about 10 or 15 minutes..... 10 or 15 minutes? How old is that cat? D "my late cat Oscar lived to be almost 20" Neb -- The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) |
#49
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy wrote: Bill Graham wrote: .Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms..... You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz. Simply not true. It is usually a matter of frequency and SPL. Make it loud enough and even many old geezers will reliably perceive sound above 15 KHz. There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. That very much depends on the nature of the music. Given a reasonble choice of music, brick wall filters as high as 15-16 Khz can be reliably detected. And the reason the point of detection is this low is due to masking, not a raw inability to hear isolated sounds that high. Just noise. No, there's music up to 80-100 KHz, depending on the instrument. A trumpet with a Harmon mute comes to mind. http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm |
#50
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:12:55 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote in : snip Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. Just noise. According to your esoteric statistics, even people over 25 will hear about half of that "noise". I can hear only to about 6KHz, and *I* can tell the difference between something that is 20-*TEN*K and something that is 20- 20K. That is only because equipment that only goes to 10K is going to be a serious piece of **** and have all kinds of distortion, and difference in frequency response well below 10K. |
#51
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
AZ Nomad wrote in
: On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:12:55 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote: AZ Nomad wrote in : snip Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. Just noise. According to your esoteric statistics, even people over 25 will hear about half of that "noise". I can hear only to about 6KHz, and *I* can tell the difference between something that is 20-*TEN*K and something that is 20- 20K. That is only because equipment that only goes to 10K is going to be a serious piece of **** and have all kinds of distortion, and difference in frequency response well below 10K. I have good equipment, ProAc speakers, and I am talking about the RECORDING, not the /equipment it is played on/ to begin with! -- Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to reality. |
#52
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message .com... On 9/9/2010 5:24 PM Bill Graham spake thus: "AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:05:10 -0700, Bill Graham wrote: ... device, but in recent years (I am 75) I frequently get confused, and think that something from the TV is a real sound, (usually something behind me.) So, I jump up and look behind me foolishly, when the noise just came from the TV or whatever.....My cats, on the other hand, pay no attention to any program material from the TV, but should something real happen, they perk right up immediately, telling me that its a "real" noise. I have a phone app that generates high pitched noise and it is amusing seeing who in a crowd can hear it. Unsurprisingly, the name of the app is "Teen Repellant" One of my cats (B-K, whom I picked up in a Burger King parking lot) comes when I call him with a "dog whistle" It's amazing how far away he can hear that whistle. All I have to do is leave the front door ajar, and blow that whistle, and he shows up in about 10 or 15 minutes..... 10 or 15 minutes? How old is that cat? D "my late cat Oscar lived to be almost 20" Neb B-K will be 7 this Thanksgiving. He is very gregarious, and knows most of the neighbors....He spends time in all their houses, and so he might have to wait until they let him out before he responds to my call....The guy next door is allergic to cats, but he loves B-K, because he hates moles who destroy his lawn, and B-K waits for hours to catch a mole, and then leaves the body on his front doorstep as a present....:^) |
#53
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "AZ Nomad" wrote in message On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy wrote: Bill Graham wrote: .Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms..... You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz. Simply not true. It is usually a matter of frequency and SPL. Make it loud enough and even many old geezers will reliably perceive sound above 15 KHz. There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. That very much depends on the nature of the music. Given a reasonble choice of music, brick wall filters as high as 15-16 Khz can be reliably detected. And the reason the point of detection is this low is due to masking, not a raw inability to hear isolated sounds that high. Just noise. No, there's music up to 80-100 KHz, depending on the instrument. A trumpet with a Harmon mute comes to mind. http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? IOW, if I can't hear any frequencies above, say, 15 KHz, then I won't be able to tell the difference between a Hi-Fi system that copies to 20 KHz, and one that only copies to 15 KHz.....Isn't that true? So, any money I spend on equipment that copies over 15 KHz is wasted......My cats will be able to hear it, but they would be happier with a $1.00 pull toy, or a fresh can of cat food. The way it is now, I can't tell a TV sound from a live one, so what good is a 20 to 20 KHz sound system to me? The harmonics may be there, but I can't hear them, so the music sounds just as good to me on a much poorer system. |
#54
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:38:30 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy wrote: Bill Graham wrote: .Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms..... You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz. Simply not true. It is usually a matter of frequency and SPL. Make it loud enough and even many old geezers will reliably perceive sound above 15 KHz. There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. That very much depends on the nature of the music. Given a reasonble choice of music, brick wall filters as high as 15-16 Khz can be reliably detected. And the reason the point of detection is this low is due to masking, not a raw inability to hear isolated sounds that high. Just noise. No, there's music up to 80-100 KHz, depending on the instrument. A trumpet with a Harmon mute comes to mind. If you can't hear a tone at 17khz, what makes you think you can hear anything out at 50khz? |
#55
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:12:55 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote: AZ Nomad wrote in : snip Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. Just noise. According to your esoteric statistics, even people over 25 will hear about half of that "noise". I can hear only to about 6KHz, and *I* can tell the difference between something that is 20-*TEN*K and something that is 20- 20K. That is only because equipment that only goes to 10K is going to be a serious piece of **** and have all kinds of distortion, and difference in frequency response well below 10K. Yes....The placebo effect is so great in these matters that one must use a serious double blind test in order to really know what someone really hears, and what they are just surmising from the things they see. As a trumpet player, I can tell you that musicians are seriously influenced by many other things other than the pure sounds they hear.....They do crazy things because of these outside (sometimes ridiculous) influences. They cryogenically treat their horns for example.....Bring them down to over 150 degrees below zero for a half hour, and then let them return to room temperature, (which does absolutely nothing to the metal in the horn) and they actually think their horn will perform/sound better because of this. No amount of argument by experienced metallurgists can convince them otherwise....:^) Another thing they swear by is something called, "projection". This is a perceived increase in the volume of their sound over distance, which breaks Gauss' inverse square law, and is, of course, impossible. As a physicist, I have found it totally impossible to convince them of this.....If they believe, then its like a religion. They will continue to believe against any and all logic. |
#56
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Bill Graham" wrote in
: snip I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a "single note". Whether /you/ can tell the note comes from a Selmer saxophone or a kazoo is another matter. IOW, if I can't hear any frequencies above, say, 15 KHz, then I won't be able to tell the difference between a Hi-Fi system that copies to 20 KHz, and one that only copies to 15 KHz.....Isn't that true? No. So, any money I spend on equipment that copies over 15 KHz is wasted... No. OK, maybe - for YOU. My cats will be able to hear it, but they would be happier with a $1.00 pull toy, or a fresh can of cat food. The way it is now, I can't tell a TV sound from a live one, so what good is a 20 to 20 KHz sound system to me? The harmonics may be there, but I can't hear them, so the music sounds just as good to me on a much poorer system. I never disputed your /individual/ inability to tell the difference, just your cloudy views on the matter. Nonetheless, 20 years ago when I got my ProAcs the difference between them and the speakers that came with my VERY good Sony MHT-3500 mini-system was MUCH more perceptible than it is today, but I can /still/ hear *A* difference, even though a simple test with computer hardware (using Sennheiser headphones - and I have a real stereo hooked up to the sound card anyway, not a pair of ˝" 'speakers') tells me my hearing cuts off around 6KHz. -- Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to reality. |
#57
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote:
"Bill Graham" wrote in m: snip I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a "single note". It doesn't and you won't. |
#58
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"thanatoid" wrote in message ... I never disputed your /individual/ inability to tell the difference, just your cloudy views on the matter. Why are these views, "cloudy"? One can either hear the highs, or not. If one can't hear them, then why would one spend money to reproduce them faithfully? Now, it may be that I am not the only one that listens to my equipment, and therefore, I might want to buy and maintain better equipment for my friends. But the facts are still the facts. If any part of a serial system is defective, then the whole is not going to do the job, right? It's like a chain, which is only as strong as its weakest link. So, ones ears are a part of the system.....The last link in the chain, as it were. Therefore, even if the rest of the chain is bouquet fine stuff, if the last link is bad, then the whole thing is inadequate. That's all I'm trying to say, and I see no reason to call my reasoning, "cloudy". |
#59
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote: "Bill Graham" wrote in om: snip I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a "single note". It doesn't and you won't. I don't really believe it will either, but there is a great deal of, "placebo" effect going on in a room full of very expensive and elegant equipment, and so there is a "cult" of believers that are convinced that there is some kind of magic going on that allows them to hear things that aren't really there......I am, (by the way) not at all immune to this placebo effect....I too, think the music is better, (even though I should know better.) So, I may (and frequently have in the past) spend the money and feed my own erroneous beliefs even though I should know better. But I don't think I should be castigated for expressing my belief in physics. The fact of the matter is, if you can't hear those upper harmonics, then the music won't sound any better by the time it enters your brain, and if you think it does, then you are being deceived by something else than what you hear. Which is OK.....I like magic shows as well as the next person.....But I still insist that they are nothing more than magic shows, and not real magic. |
#60
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote: "Bill Graham" wrote in : snip I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a "single note". It doesn't and you won't. Agreed. If you can't hear it, you can't hear its effects. |
#61
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Bill Graham" wrote in
: snip I never disputed your /individual/ inability to tell the difference, just your cloudy views on the matter. Why are these views, "cloudy"? One can either hear the highs, or not. If one can't hear them, then why would one spend money to reproduce them faithfully? snip OK, just to play this for a little longer... HOW MUCH did your system cost? I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more than music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500 on a sound system are nuts. The logic of "If you can't hear it, you can't hear its effects." (A.K.) appears undeniable, and I do not believe my stereo would sound better - to MY ears, and 99.9% of humans - if it *just* cost $30,000 more. I *have heard* $30,000 systems with 2 mono block valve amps and speakers 3 times the size of my body, and I am /perfectly/ happy with my 20+ yr old 2x30W Sony MHC-3500, and my ProAc Tablette II speakers (the original Sonys, better than you would think, are used with my computer). Even on MY system, I /can/ hear the difference between something I recorded with a 15KHz high pass filter on Vs. off. Anyway, this is silly to argue about. Now, for something a LOT more important: Has anyone heard if "they" have developed a tinnitus reversal operation procedure, OR some wonder drug? Mine is not THAT bad - when I am talking (etc.) I am barely aware of it, but when I listen to MUSIC, it is in full force. A nightmare. -- Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to reality. |
#62
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"thanatoid" wrote in message
"Bill Graham" wrote in : snip I never disputed your /individual/ inability to tell the difference, just your cloudy views on the matter. Why are these views, "cloudy"? One can either hear the highs, or not. If one can't hear them, then why would one spend money to reproduce them faithfully? snip OK, just to play this for a little longer... HOW MUCH did your system cost? I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more than music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500 on a sound system are nuts. Hmmm.. My "fun" system, in my living room. Somethings are old, somethings are new... Pioneer Blu Ray Player: $120 Sherwood 100 wpc stereo receiver $85 Rane 1/3 octave Stereo eq $300 Pair Boston Acoustics CR9 speakers $450 Paradigm 12" Subwoofer $450 Yes, there's a 60" HDTV spliced onto the side of this, but it doesn't count! I guess that this system is according to you, not nuts. However it is pretty close to the limit. IME spending more money on speakers, including subwoofers can be audibly beneficial. |
#63
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"thanatoid" wrote in message ... I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more than music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500 on a sound system are nuts. Hell I've never heard a pair of speakers that I'd be happy with for that price, and the frequency response above 15kHz is NOT a real consideration for me any more. BUT distortion levels and bass response sure are. However for those who are happy with their little systems, good luck to them, they sure save a lot of money, but don't pretend they are just as good. And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy playing in a venue with a $1500 sound system! MrT. |
#64
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message u... "thanatoid" wrote in message ... I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more than music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500 on a sound system are nuts. Hell I've never heard a pair of speakers that I'd be happy with for that price, and the frequency response above 15kHz is NOT a real consideration for me any more. BUT distortion levels and bass response sure are. However for those who are happy with their little systems, good luck to them, they sure save a lot of money, but don't pretend they are just as good. And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy playing in a venue with a $1500 sound system! MrT. Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a flugelhorn through an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC Helicon Vocal processor ($150) and a Behringer 45 Watt Amp ($175) to a dance floor containing around 20 couples every week. Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment playing Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their league. The amateur musicians in this country outnumber the paid professionals by about 100 to 1, and many of them are a lot better than the pros, too.....AAMOF, I would call most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not musicians. The real musicians in this world are practicing in their own living rooms, and not in front of any crowd. |
#65
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote: "Bill Graham" wrote in om: snip I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a "single note". It doesn't and you won't. Yes you will, you're an idiot. |
#66
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:29:51 -0500, dizzy wrote: Bill Graham wrote: .Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms..... You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics Meanwhile most people above the age of about 25 are totally deaf above 15khz. There really isn't much information' between 10 and 20khz. Just noise. No, they are not, and you're a ****ing idiot. Sheesh, do you *really* want to claim that all 8 kHz (fundamental) notes will sound the same, to older people? |
#67
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Value of KLH speakers?
Bill Graham wrote:
"dizzy" wrote: Bill Graham wrote: Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms..... You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics Yes.....Barely audible, at least to me....I do notice that when I was younger, I had little or no trouble being able to tell the difference between real sounds, and sounds that came from some electronic reproductive device, but in recent years (I am 75) Doesn't excuse the above silly statement you made: |
#68
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Arny Krueger" wrote in
: snip Hmmm.. My "fun" system, in my living room. Somethings are old, somethings are new... Pioneer Blu Ray Player: $120 Sherwood 100 wpc stereo receiver $85 Is this old and good or some Chinese **** by people who bought out the name? Or does this brand actually continue? Or is this a different Sherwood altogether (like a UK one?) Rane 1/3 octave Stereo eq $300 Pair Boston Acoustics CR9 speakers $450 Paradigm 12" Subwoofer $450 Yes, there's a 60" HDTV spliced onto the side of this, but it doesn't count! No kidding. Throw that piece of crap in the trash and get a CRT for a decent image. **** HD and LCDs. (JMHO.) I guess that this system is according to you, not nuts. No, but I would NEVER spend that much on anything Boston Acoustics makes. You could have done a LOT worse though. It's a decent brand, but a better value with their lower-priced stuff IIRC. However it is pretty close to the limit. IME spending more money on speakers, including subwoofers can be audibly beneficial. I do not like subwoofers. They are for gamers and people who like hollywood action ****. I had a subwoofer hooked up along with my Tablettes for a while, and I have been much happier since I removed it. -- Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to reality. |
#69
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in
u: "thanatoid" wrote in message ... I used to be a musician and there is nothing I love more than music. But I think people who spend more than $1,500 on a sound system are nuts. Hell I've never heard a pair of speakers that I'd be happy with for that price, and the frequency response above 15kHz is NOT a real consideration for me any more. BUT distortion levels and bass response sure are. However for those who are happy with their little systems, good luck to them, they sure save a lot of money, but don't pretend they are just as good. And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy playing in a venue with a $1500 sound system! MrT. Take off all the gold necklaces affecting your brain operation and you MAY realize that an amplifier (etc) for stage use is NOT quite the same as a hi-fi amplifier in the house. My ProAc Tablettes II cost well under a grand when I bought them (the new ones are MUCH too big and too expensive) and they were considered one of the 2-3 best speakers of that size /ever/ built. I would have bought the equivalent minitowers - just an extra woofer - because they were so beautiful (IMO /the/ best geometrical proportions of any speaker ever made), but they were a little too expensive. I am not into big sound (unless I /am/ on stage, but those days are gone, pretty much). -- Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to reality. |
#70
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Bill Graham" wrote in
: snip Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a flugelhorn through an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC Helicon Vocal processor ($150) and a Behringer 45 Watt Amp ($175) to a dance floor containing around 20 couples every week. Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment playing Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their league. Yes, some people actually use more than 5 guitar chords over 50 years... Yes, not *three* chords, five :-] The amateur musicians in this country outnumber the paid professionals by about 100 to 1, and many of them are a lot better than the pros, too... No kidding. Quality rarely sells records or radio time. AAMOF, I would call most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not musicians. The real musicians in this world are practicing in their own living rooms, and not in front of any crowd. No kidding, again. -- Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to reality. |
#71
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Value of KLH speakers?
"dizzy" wrote in message news Bill Graham wrote: "dizzy" wrote: Bill Graham wrote: Also, the highest note on a piano is only around 8 Kilohertz, so it's pretty much a waste of time to buy devices that operate much above that, either, but that's a whole different argument, and I probably shouldn't open up that can of worms..... You're right, you shouldn't. The are audible harmonics above 8 kHz, no matter what the fundamental frequency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics Yes.....Barely audible, at least to me....I do notice that when I was younger, I had little or no trouble being able to tell the difference between real sounds, and sounds that came from some electronic reproductive device, but in recent years (I am 75) Doesn't excuse the above silly statement you made: And what silly statement was that? |
#72
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Value of KLH speakers?
"thanatoid" wrote in message ... "Bill Graham" wrote in : snip Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a flugelhorn through an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC Helicon Vocal processor ($150) and a Behringer 45 Watt Amp ($175) to a dance floor containing around 20 couples every week. Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment playing Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their league. Yes, some people actually use more than 5 guitar chords over 50 years... Yes, not *three* chords, five :-] The amateur musicians in this country outnumber the paid professionals by about 100 to 1, and many of them are a lot better than the pros, too... No kidding. Quality rarely sells records or radio time. AAMOF, I would call most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not musicians. The real musicians in this world are practicing in their own living rooms, and not in front of any crowd. No kidding, again. I am fond of saying that there exists, in almost every town in this country, a housewife that could be a concert artist, if she had the ability to sell herself as well as she could play her music, and was willing to spend the hours waiting in line in producers and agents offices it takes to be recognized....... |
#73
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Bill Graham" wrote in
: snip I am fond of saying that there exists, in almost every town in this country, a housewife that could be a concert artist, if she had the ability to sell herself as well as she could play her music, and was willing to spend the hours waiting in line in producers and agents offices it takes to be recognized....... You forgot to mention paying low wages to a bimbo with big tits who would lip sync/pretend to play instrument in her videos while the artist hides in her kitchen and collects royalties. Did you know "Whigfield" was just a model, the singer was someone else? She was /just/ common-looking enough I thought she may have been real... Poor Milli Vanilli guy... They were ****trailblazers**** and he snuffed it for nothing instead of being inducted into the RnR Hall of Fame! Sigh. I LOVE this century (NOT). -- Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to reality. |
#74
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Value of KLH speakers?
On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:09:13 -0500, dizzy wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote: On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote: "Bill Graham" wrote in news:KLOdnQ37puGpQBfRnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@giganews. com: snip I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a "single note". It doesn't and you won't. Yes you will, you're an idiot. bull**** and more bull**** is all you have |
#75
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Value of KLH speakers?
"dizzy" wrote in message
news AZ Nomad wrote: On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote: "Bill Graham" wrote in : snip I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a "single note". It doesn't and you won't. Yes you will, you're an idiot. Ah, its the prerequisite radical subjectivist personal attack. When people run out of logic, they can still use anger. Trouble is, it makes them look like a fool. I feel just like I'm back on RAO! |
#76
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Value of KLH speakers?
"thanatoid" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in : snip Hmmm.. My "fun" system, in my living room. Somethings are old, somethings are new... Pioneer Blu Ray Player: $120 Sherwood 100 wpc stereo receiver $85 Is this old and good or some Chinese **** by people who bought out the name? The Sherwood is a few years old and therefore Chinese. The Pioneer is new but they sometimes use places like the Philllapines, etc. If you want to be a racist, that's your choice. I find that it is harder and harder to distinguish country of origin by looking at the insides of things. Or does this brand actually continue? Or is this a different Sherwood altogether (like a UK one?) All USA. Rane 1/3 octave Stereo eq $300 Pair Boston Acoustics CR9 speakers $450 Paradigm 12" Subwoofer $450 Yes, there's a 60" HDTV spliced onto the side of this, but it doesn't count! No kidding. Throw that piece of crap in the trash and get a CRT for a decent image. **** HD and LCDs. (JMHO.) I actually own a 2048 x 2048 CRT-based projector, which is sitting in storage someplace. You can say whatever you want, but I know what the actual comparison looks like. I'm using the best all-around tool in this case. I guess that this system is according to you, not nuts. No, but I would NEVER spend that much on anything Boston Acoustics makes. Again a choice you get to make. The CR9s were bought new in the mid-1990s. They seem to have stood the test of time. You could have done a LOT worse though. It's a decent brand, but a better value with their lower-priced stuff IIRC. However it is pretty close to the limit. IME spending more money on speakers, including subwoofers can be audibly beneficial. I do not like subwoofers. They are for gamers and people who like hollywood action ****. You seem to hold tightly onto a lot of prejudices that many knowlegeable people disagree with. I had a subwoofer hooked up along with my Tablettes for a while, and I have been much happier since I removed it. Next time, try implementing your subwoofer properly. |
#77
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Arny Krueger" wrote in
: "thanatoid" wrote in message snip The Sherwood is a few years old and therefore Chinese. The Pioneer is new but they sometimes use places like the Philllapines, etc. Phillipines, you racist misspeller (see below). If you want to be a racist, that's your choice. If you want to be a retard whose trendoid "anti-racist" leanings make him/her afraid of admitting that country 98% of whose industry still has not mastered the subtle art of injection molding may NOT be the best choice for manufacturing anything beyond pencils, and realizing that this fact has NOTHING to do with race, that's your choice as well. Incredible. NB: Cadbury recently opened a plant(s?) in China. I suggest next time you feel like some good chocolate, you buy the Chinese-made bar. Your contribution to the anti-racist movement, overall political awareness, the health of Western World economies and workforce, and the well-being of all good persons on this planet will be greatly appreciated! Bon appétit! I find that it is harder and harder to distinguish country of origin by looking at the insides of things. Once serious manufacturers realized the truth of the injection molding statement above, they started exercising better control. I just bought a Lumix digi camera and it is perfect, AND 100% made in China. But the /battery/ is 100% made in Japan. I wonder why? Or does this brand actually continue? Or is this a different Sherwood altogether (like a UK one?) All USA. No, all China. Rane 1/3 octave Stereo eq $300 Pair Boston Acoustics CR9 speakers $450 Paradigm 12" Subwoofer $450 Yes, there's a 60" HDTV spliced onto the side of this, but it doesn't count! No kidding. Throw that piece of crap in the trash and get a CRT for a decent image. **** HD and LCDs. (JMHO.) I actually own a 2048 x 2048 CRT-based projector, which is sitting in storage someplace. Aside from the rather interestng aspect ratio, may I state that CRT projectors had far worse image quality than LCDs. But size is all that matters to MANY clueless people. You can say whatever you want Thank you, your majesty. I hope I was not being racist in claiming HD and LCD was irrelevant ****. but I know what the actual comparison looks like. I'm using the best all-around tool in this case. I know, it's a pointless argument. CRT's WILL be back, just like turntables. I guess that this system is according to you, not nuts. No, but I would NEVER spend that much on anything Boston Acoustics makes. Again a choice you get to make. Again, your benevolence is astonishing. The CR9s were bought new in the mid-1990s. They seem to have stood the test of time. I never said BA stuff fell apart after 5 years, just that for $450 you could have probably done better. OTOH, I never priced stuff in that range. Once I heard the ProAcs, there was no other speaker for me. You could have done a LOT worse though. It's a decent brand, but a better value with their lower-priced stuff IIRC. However it is pretty close to the limit. IME spending more money on speakers, including subwoofers can be audibly beneficial. I do not like subwoofers. They are for gamers and people who like hollywood action ****. You seem to hold tightly onto a lot of prejudices that many knowlegeable people disagree with. No, many people whose intelligence and knowledge are irrelevant (not unlike people who like huge screens with no true black, and mind-numbing content overshadowed by the all-important resolution) like their room to shake, for whatever reasons. Last time I was at the symphony, my seats did NOT shake. I had a subwoofer hooked up along with my Tablettes for a while, and I have been much happier since I removed it. Next time, try implementing your subwoofer properly. Funny how seemingly interesting and knowledgeable people turn into idiots with fascist aspirations. And you do not "implement" a stupid subwoofer, you connect it. And then, if you care about content and not about your furniture rattling from joy, you *DIS*connect it. Whoever at Bose came up with the subwoofer/tiny satellites concept should be fried alive. That design was originally aimed for RESTAURANTS, BTW. Restaurants are WELL known for stressing musical content and quality over appearance and cost. -- Any mental activity is easy if it need not be subjected to reality. |
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "dizzy" wrote in message news AZ Nomad wrote: On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:33 +0000 (UTC), thanatoid wrote: "Bill Graham" wrote in : snip I don't deny that the music contains these higher frequencies, but what I question is, what good are they if one can't hear them? You may not be able to 'hear' a harmonic the freq of which is ~18KHz, but you WILL hear the difference it makes in the overall sound of the **complex** harmonic structure you perceive as a "single note". It doesn't and you won't. Yes you will, you're an idiot. Ah, its the prerequisite radical subjectivist personal attack. When people run out of logic, they can still use anger. Trouble is, it makes them look like a fool. I feel just like I'm back on RAO! When I was 40 years old, and a door slammed on the TV, I could tell right away that it was the Telly, and not any door in my house. Today, at 75, I can't tell the difference, but my cats can without any trouble at all. So, I know that my high frequency hearing has deteriorated to the point that the necessary fidelity for me to tell the difference is no longer registering in my brain......I can only attribute this to my inability to hear the higher harmonics in the program material. I can still hear very well for a 75 year old.....The sensitivity at the lower and middle frequencies is still there. But the lack of the highs interferes with my ability to tell the difference between reality and canned program material. My cats can tell the difference easily, because their hearing extends upwards above 30 KHz. The TV doesn't reproduce anything that high, so to them it's duck soup to know the difference......It's just another dumb low frequency noise coming from that box over there by the living room wall. When a real door opens and closes somewhere in the house, they perk up immediately, because the highs they hear in the close to thirty kilohertz range tell them it was a real violation in the security of the house. |
#79
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Bill Graham" wrote in message ... And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy playing in a venue with a $1500 sound system! Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a flugelhorn through an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC Helicon Vocal processor ($150) and a Behringer 45 Watt Amp ($175) to a dance floor containing around 20 couples every week. Maybe, but you could probably do that without the amp, and sound better. Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment playing Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their league. The amateur musicians in this country outnumber the paid professionals by about 100 to 1, and many of them are a lot better than the pros, too.....AAMOF, I would call most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not musicians. The real musicians in this world are practicing in their own living rooms, and not in front of any crowd. I've worked with thousands of musicians, and I'd have to say that comment is just as silly as saying all professional musicians are better than all amateurs. There is great talent (and crap) in both camps, and personal taste has a lot to do with which ones YOU think are the best. MrT. |
#80
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Value of KLH speakers?
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message ... "Bill Graham" wrote in message ... And IF you are a musician, I'll bet you wouldn't be happy playing in a venue with a $1500 sound system! Oh, I wouldn't say that....I am perfectly happy playing a flugelhorn through an AT PRO 35 R microphone ($125) to a TC Helicon Vocal processor ($150) and a Behringer 45 Watt Amp ($175) to a dance floor containing around 20 couples every week. Maybe, but you could probably do that without the amp, and sound better. Sure, the Rolling Stones couldn't use my equipment playing Hollywood Bowl, but not all musicians are in their league. The amateur musicians in this country outnumber the paid professionals by about 100 to 1, and many of them are a lot better than the pros, too.....AAMOF, I would call most professional musicians "Entertainers", and not musicians. The real musicians in this world are practicing in their own living rooms, and not in front of any crowd. I've worked with thousands of musicians, and I'd have to say that comment is just as silly as saying all professional musicians are better than all amateurs. There is great talent (and crap) in both camps, and personal taste has a lot to do with which ones YOU think are the best. MrT. No question.....It certainly has little to do with the money they make......Unless you think that Michael Jackson is a better, "Musician" than Issac Pearlman or Yo Yo Ma. |
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