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bob bob is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

Occasionally, during one of our long threads about vinyl vs.
digital,someone suggests the invention of a "vinylizer," a knob that
can dial in any amount of the various distortions characteristic of
vinyl playback. Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

bob

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Frank[_11_] Frank[_11_] is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

Il 25/07/2010 23.49, bob ha scritto:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about vinyl vs.
digital,someone suggests the invention of a "vinylizer," a knob that
can dial in any amount of the various distortions characteristic of
vinyl playback. Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

bob



... various distortions?

I'm not getting any of those "various distortions" you're talking about.

How can I get those in my systems?

I'd like to be a happy owner of a misaligned, mismatched, mistuned,
mispriced ... turntable but unfortunately I'm not. ;-)

I only have four beautyfully working and cheaply bought turntables with
the perfectly matched arms and cartridges and so ... I'm very very very sad.


Frank

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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

"Frank" wrote in message

Il 25/07/2010 23.49, bob ha scritto:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about vinyl
vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of the
various distortions characteristic of vinyl playback.
Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

bob



.. various distortions?


Read the web site?

Mechanical Noise - The amount of turntable motor rumble and noise
Electrical Noise - Internally generated electrical noise, such as 60 Hz
grounding hum
Wear Control - how worn out the record is, from brand new to played a few
thousand times
Dust - The amount of dust on the record
Scratch -The number and depth of scratches on the record
Warp -The amount of warping and the warp shape for the record - from no warp
to the edges totally melted and warped

These are all common to vinyl playback, and generally when they are reduced
as much as the art allows by traditional means, they are still audible.

Also, a number of kinds of common vinyl-related distoritons are not
mentioned including:

Tracking distortion
Tracing distortion
Flutter





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Default The Vinylizer

"bob" wrote in message
...
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about vinyl vs.
digital,someone suggests the invention of a "vinylizer," a knob that
can dial in any amount of the various distortions characteristic of
vinyl playback. Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/


i use 'tapelyzer' lately: connect your cd to cassette deck, fiddle a little
with levels, bias and dolby, and enjoy pure analog sounding cd material

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Audio Empire Audio Empire is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 06:30:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Frank" wrote in message

Il 25/07/2010 23.49, bob ha scritto:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about vinyl
vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of the
various distortions characteristic of vinyl playback.
Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

bob



.. various distortions?


Read the web site?

Mechanical Noise - The amount of turntable motor rumble and noise
Electrical Noise - Internally generated electrical noise, such as 60 Hz
grounding hum
Wear Control - how worn out the record is, from brand new to played a few
thousand times
Dust - The amount of dust on the record
Scratch -The number and depth of scratches on the record
Warp -The amount of warping and the warp shape for the record - from no warp
to the edges totally melted and warped

These are all common to vinyl playback, and generally when they are reduced
as much as the art allows by traditional means, they are still audible.

Also, a number of kinds of common vinyl-related distoritons are not
mentioned including:

Tracking distortion
Tracing distortion
Flutter


Why would anybody want to add the BAD things about vinyl to their CD
playback? These are things that I take great care to avoid by handling my
vinyl record collection correctly and taking great care to keep them clean,
dust and warp free. I listen to records because they still give me a great
deal of listening pleasure and the the things that this "Vinylizer" brings to
the party, are those very things that I strive to avoid. How about a "CDizer"
a device that adds the harshness and a flat sound stage with poor imaging
that characterized many early CDs and players to modern CD playback? Makes no
sense.



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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

"Audio Empire" wrote in message

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 06:30:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Frank" wrote in message

Il 25/07/2010 23.49, bob ha scritto:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about
vinyl vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of the
various distortions characteristic of vinyl playback.
Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

bob



.. various distortions?


Read the web site?

Mechanical Noise - The amount of turntable motor rumble
and noise Electrical Noise - Internally generated
electrical noise, such as 60 Hz grounding hum
Wear Control - how worn out the record is, from brand
new to played a few thousand times
Dust - The amount of dust on the record
Scratch -The number and depth of scratches on the record
Warp -The amount of warping and the warp shape for the
record - from no warp to the edges totally melted and
warped

These are all common to vinyl playback, and generally
when they are reduced as much as the art allows by
traditional means, they are still audible.

Also, a number of kinds of common vinyl-related
distoritons are not mentioned including:


Tracking distortion
Tracing distortion
Flutter


Why would anybody want to add the BAD things about vinyl
to their CD playback?


Sentimentality.

These are things that I take great
care to avoid by handling my vinyl record collection
correctly and taking great care to keep them clean, dust
and warp free.


That helps, but it does not completely resolve the problems.

I listen to records because they still
give me a great deal of listening pleasure and the the
things that this "Vinylizer" brings to the party, are
those very things that I strive to avoid.


The only way to totally avoid them is to avoid vinyl.

How about a
"CDizer" a device that adds the harshness and a flat
sound stage with poor imaging that characterized many
early CDs and players to modern CD playback?


That's just bad mastering, and there is no method to its madness.

Makes no sense.


Some people do the darnedest things!


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Scott[_6_] Scott[_6_] is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

On Jul 25, 2:49=A0pm, bob wrote:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about vinyl vs.
digital,someone suggests the invention of a "vinylizer," a knob that
can dial in any amount of the various distortions characteristic of
vinyl playback. Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

bob


Too bad this one completely missed the mark. It would be a good idea
if it were done right without the cyncism. Maybe somebody who gets
vinyl will make something that will actually do the job.

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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

"Scott" wrote in message


On Jul 25, 2:49=A0pm, bob wrote:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about vinyl
vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of the
various distortions characteristic of vinyl playback.
Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:


http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/


Too bad this one completely missed the mark. It would be
a good idea if it were done right without the cyncism.
Maybe somebody who gets vinyl will make something that
will actually do the job.


What is "getting vinyl"?

The facts about vinyl in approximate order of importance to most people:

(1) Playing vinyl can be a means for accessing music that was never deemed
to be commercially worthy of rerecording on digital.

(2) Playing vinyl can be a means for obtaining a different approach to
mastering for recordings that were not treated in accordance with our
preferences when it was recorded on digital.

(3) Playing vinyl can be a sentimental act, a trip down memory lane.

The Vinylizer seems to be a heavy-handed approximation that tries to address
the third item on the list.


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Audio Empire Audio Empire is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:03:35 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Audio Empire" wrote in message

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 06:30:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Frank" wrote in message

Il 25/07/2010 23.49, bob ha scritto:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about
vinyl vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of the
various distortions characteristic of vinyl playback.
Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

bob



.. various distortions?

Read the web site?

Mechanical Noise - The amount of turntable motor rumble
and noise Electrical Noise - Internally generated
electrical noise, such as 60 Hz grounding hum
Wear Control - how worn out the record is, from brand
new to played a few thousand times
Dust - The amount of dust on the record
Scratch -The number and depth of scratches on the record
Warp -The amount of warping and the warp shape for the
record - from no warp to the edges totally melted and
warped

These are all common to vinyl playback, and generally
when they are reduced as much as the art allows by
traditional means, they are still audible.

Also, a number of kinds of common vinyl-related
distoritons are not mentioned including:


Tracking distortion
Tracing distortion
Flutter


Why would anybody want to add the BAD things about vinyl
to their CD playback?


Sentimentality.


Balderdash and blarney! There are things from vinyl playback that I might
WANT to add to a CD (like musicality and warmth and a sense of real
instruments playing in real space), but the above mentioned vinyl artifacts
are not among them.

These are things that I take great
care to avoid by handling my vinyl record collection
correctly and taking great care to keep them clean, dust
and warp free.


That helps, but it does not completely resolve the problems.


Of course it doesn't, but that's beside the point. The point is who would
WANT to add those things to a medium that doesn't have them?

I listen to records because they still
give me a great deal of listening pleasure and the the
things that this "Vinylizer" brings to the party, are
those very things that I strive to avoid.


The only way to totally avoid them is to avoid vinyl.


Yeah, like anybody with a large record collection is dumb enough to do that!

How about a
"CDizer" a device that adds the harshness and a flat
sound stage with poor imaging that characterized many
early CDs and players to modern CD playback?


That's just bad mastering, and there is no method to its madness.


That's not the point either. The point is, that just like with the
"Vinylizer", nobody is going to want to relive those days and those problems.


Makes no sense.


Some people do the darnedest things!


Yeah, that's for sure. Many people throw babies out with bath water too.

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"Audio Empire" wrote in message


On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:03:35 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):


"Audio Empire" wrote in message


Why would anybody want to add the BAD things about vinyl
to their CD playback?


Sentimentality.


Balderdash and blarney! There are things from vinyl
playback that I might WANT to add to a CD (like
musicality and warmth and a sense of real instruments
playing in real space), but the above mentioned vinyl
artifacts are not among them.


I never said otherwise.

If you want to add warmth, there are always equalizers. Of course equalizing
warmth into a badly-mastered recordings (and cold-sounding LPs definately
exist) takes skill and effort that many lack.

These are things that I take great
care to avoid by handling my vinyl record collection
correctly and taking great care to keep them clean, dust
and warp free.


That helps, but it does not completely resolve the
problems.


Of course it doesn't, but that's beside the point. The
point is who would WANT to add those things to a medium
that doesn't have them?


Like I said, sentimentality.

I still remember obtaining a MP3 of a LP transfer of a jazz number that I
used to listen to frequently back in the days of vinyl. Yes it was a little
harsh and reedy like vinyl can be and there were tics and pops, but it
brought back memories of a certain hot summer night, and enough said in
public about that one! ;-) The tics and pops even had the sharp slightly
ringy quality that one of my old cartridges, maybe an Empire 108, had.


I listen to records because they still
give me a great deal of listening pleasure and the the
things that this "Vinylizer" brings to the party, are
those very things that I strive to avoid.


The only way to totally avoid them is to avoid vinyl.


Yeah, like anybody with a large record collection is dumb
enough to do that!


My large record collection magically transformed itself into CDs through the
magic of reselling the LPs before they lost much of their value.

How about a
"CDizer" a device that adds the harshness and a flat
sound stage with poor imaging that characterized many
early CDs and players to modern CD playback?


That's just bad mastering, and there is no method to its
madness.


That's not the point either.


Why not?





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Default The Vinylizer

Arny Krueger wrote:

The facts about vinyl in approximate order of importance to most people:


How did you determine these so-called "facts" about vinyl?

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On Jul 27, 4:48=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Jul 25, 2:49=3DA0pm, bob wrote:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about vinyl
vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of the
various distortions characteristic of vinyl playback.
Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:
http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

Too bad this one completely missed the mark. It would be
a good idea if it were done right without the cyncism.
Maybe somebody who gets vinyl will make something that
will actually do the job.


What is "getting vinyl"?



Understanding the sonic aesthetic virtues that can be found with
vinyl.


The facts about vinyl in approximate order of importance to most people:



Sorry you don't get to speak for most people. Especially given your
well documented prejudices on vinyl. This product misses the mark IMO.
I am speaking as an audiophile who is interested in the aesthetic
value of sound and appreciates the virtues of the sound one can get
from vinyl. If *you* find some appeal with this product then feel free
to tell us what *you* find appealing about it. I'm not interested in
hearing you try to speak for "most people."



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On Jul 26, 9:29=A0pm, Scott wrote:
On Jul 25, 2:49=3DA0pm, bob wrote:

Occasionally, during one of our long threads about vinyl vs.
digital,someone suggests the invention of a "vinylizer," a knob that
can dial in any amount of the various distortions characteristic of
vinyl playback. Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:


http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/


bob


Too bad this one completely missed the mark. It would be a good idea
if it were done right without the cyncism. Maybe somebody who gets
vinyl will make something that will actually do the job.


I have actually used this plug on a record I've mixed: http://rpgmusic.band=
camp.com/
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

"Scott" wrote in message

On Jul 27, 4:48=A0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Jul 25, 2:49=3DA0pm, bob wrote:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about
vinyl vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of the
various distortions characteristic of vinyl playback.
Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:
http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/
Too bad this one completely missed the mark. It would be
a good idea if it were done right without the cyncism.
Maybe somebody who gets vinyl will make something that
will actually do the job.


What is "getting vinyl"?


Understanding the sonic aesthetic virtues that can be
found with vinyl.


The facts about vinyl in approximate order of importance
to most people:


Sorry you don't get to speak for most people.


Not only most but the vast majority of people have long since forgot about
vinyl. The RIAA market share data makes that quite clear.

Especially given your well documented prejudices on vinyl.


What prejudice of mine is that? Is it not true that my comments about vinyl
have been 100% factual, and backed by published, peer-reviewed technical
papers, statistical evidence from reliable industry sources and decades of
personal experience?

This product misses the mark IMO.


But you don't say why in a detailed, convincing way. In fact, you've
presented no evidence that you've ever actually listened to it. Could it be
that your opinions of it are based only on prejudice?

I am speaking as an
audiophile who is interested in the aesthetic value of
sound


Given that you have presented no first hand information about the sound of
this product...



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Audio Empire Audio Empire is offline
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:45:47 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message

On Jul 27, 4:48=A0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Jul 25, 2:49=3DA0pm, bob wrote:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about
vinyl vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of the
various distortions characteristic of vinyl playback.
Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:
http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/
Too bad this one completely missed the mark. It would be
a good idea if it were done right without the cyncism.
Maybe somebody who gets vinyl will make something that
will actually do the job.

What is "getting vinyl"?


Understanding the sonic aesthetic virtues that can be
found with vinyl.


The facts about vinyl in approximate order of importance
to most people:


Sorry you don't get to speak for most people.


Not only most but the vast majority of people have long since forgot about
vinyl. The RIAA market share data makes that quite clear.


Yet enough people DO value vinyl that records are still pressed and hundreds
of manufacturers still make turntables, some costing a small fortune,
Cartridges are still available at all price points from $20 on the low end to
tens of thousands on the high end with new ones being introduced all the
time. Not to mention a myriad of phono preamps available, again at all price
points, as well as recently introduced preamps and integrated amps that have
phono stages either built-in as standard or available as an option.

Again, rumors of vinyl's demise is greatly exaggerated.

Especially given your well documented prejudices on vinyl.


What prejudice of mine is that? Is it not true that my comments about vinyl
have been 100% factual, and backed by published, peer-reviewed technical
papers, statistical evidence from reliable industry sources and decades of
personal experience?


Your facts are not in question here. Your obvious and oft stated disdain for
vinyl is what gives away your prejudice.

This product misses the mark IMO.


But you don't say why in a detailed, convincing way. In fact, you've
presented no evidence that you've ever actually listened to it. Could it be
that your opinions of it are based only on prejudice?

I am speaking as an
audiophile who is interested in the aesthetic value of
sound


Given that you have presented no first hand information about the sound of
this product...


Wouldn't the fact that this "Vinylizer" introduces wow, flutter, tracking
distortion, ticks and pops automatically disqualify it from serious
consideration by ANY music lover? People who listen to vinyl, at least in my
considerable experience, still listen to it because of two distinct and
different reasons. One faction holds that LP sounds "better" than digital,
and the other faction sees LP as just another source of music (that's the
faction to which I, mostly, belong), like CD, FM radio, tape, downloads from
the internet, etc. Neither like warp wow, eccentric records, ticks or pops,
mis-tracking, Inner-groove distortion, or any of the other ills that can
plague vinyl playback, and most, if not all vinyl listeners strive to avoid
those things. The fact that this "Vinylizer seems to re-introduce these
unwanted artifacts to digital playback is missing the point. Now if it made
digital SOUND like a well recorded, well pressed vinyl record WITHOUT those
unwanted artifacts, then he'd have something.


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John Nunes John Nunes is offline
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On 7/29/2010 4:43 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

Wouldn't the fact that this "Vinylizer" introduces wow, flutter, tracking
distortion, ticks and pops automatically disqualify it from serious
consideration by ANY music lover? People who listen to vinyl, at least in my
considerable experience, still listen to it because of two distinct and
different reasons. One faction holds that LP sounds "better" than digital,
and the other faction sees LP as just another source of music (that's the
faction to which I, mostly, belong), like CD, FM radio, tape, downloads from
the internet, etc. Neither like warp wow, eccentric records, ticks or pops,
mis-tracking, Inner-groove distortion, or any of the other ills that can
plague vinyl playback, and most, if not all vinyl listeners strive to avoid
those things. The fact that this "Vinylizer seems to re-introduce these
unwanted artifacts to digital playback is missing the point. Now if it made
digital SOUND like a well recorded, well pressed vinyl record WITHOUT those
unwanted artifacts, then he'd have something.


You mention wow and flutter:

One of the strangest and neurotic quirks of the "high-end" are the many
expensive turntables that have come out in the last 25 years or so with
fancy bearings, very heavy platters and various elaborate and exotic
drive systems, of which one of the goals at least is to supposedly
reduce wow and flutter to the vanishing point, and indeed they usually
do to some extent.

Then what happens is that end users play their records that have
off-center spindle holes that swamps out in actual real world use by
very large and very audible amounts, any residual wow and flutter that
the fancy table has.

Whenever I mention this, and I've brought it up several times here in
this noisegroup, there are always the litany of replies that the
off-center holes can be fixed with a little trial and error. This is
true, although it's very difficult to get really accurate to insure the
eccentricity (and thus the highly audible effect) is eliminated. Yet to
this day, I have yet to know (other than myself, and I've been around a
LOT) anyone in "high-end" that actually goes to this trouble and they
end up listening to wow and flutter, usually seeming oblivious that it's
really happening. The effect bothers the hell out of me.

The only turntables that have addressed this in the design are the two
Nakamichi tables made in the 80's, and they never sold very well. If I
recall correctly, one reviewer called one of the models a "turkey"
despite the fact that it effectively solved one of the very worst
problems with vinyl playback.

"High-end" is obsessed with tiny "differences" to the point where there
is a lot of controversy about even the existence of some of the claimed
"differences." At the same time, there is a lot of ignoring and
ignorance of what are dramatic and highly audible faults such as this
off-center hole issue, but also something arguably more important: room
acoustics and the difficulties of getting speakers to couple to rooms
properly. To illustrate this latter point, all one has to do is go to
Audiogon in the speaker ads for private users (not dealers, although it
can often be seen in those ads too) and notice pictures of systems with
no room treatment whatsoever, or if there is some, very little of it.

I think this phenomenon is really WEIRD, and reminiscent (in a different
way of course) of the contradictions one finds in religious cults.

- John
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On Jul 29, 7:45=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message







On Jul 27, 4:48=3DA0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message




On Jul 25, 2:49=3D3DA0pm, bob wrote:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about
vinyl vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of the
various distortions characteristic of vinyl playback.
Well, it isn't that simple yet, but technology finds a
way:
http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/
Too bad this one completely missed the mark. It would be
a good idea if it were done right without the cyncism.
Maybe somebody who gets vinyl will make something that
will actually do the job.


What is "getting vinyl"?

Understanding the sonic aesthetic virtues that can be
found with vinyl.
The facts about vinyl in approximate order of importance
to most people:

Sorry you don't get to speak for most people.


Not only most but the vast majority of =A0people have ...


Nope. You still don't get to speak for them. Sorry. :-)


Especially given your well documented prejudices on vinyl.


What prejudice of mine is that? Is it not true that my comments about vin=

yl
have been 100% factual, and backed by published, peer-reviewed technical
papers, statistical evidence from reliable industry sources and decades o=

f
personal experience?



I think it is fair to say that we disagree on many alleged actual
facts about vinyl. But I am talking about your personal opinions that
you have expressed about the quality of vinyl playback. Clearly those
aesthetic opinions are not objective facts supported by published peer
reviewed technical papers. As for your personal experience....IMO,
based on what you have told us, it is lacking when it comes to world
class vinyl playback and therefore not relevant. Also experience tends
to be affected by prejudice to some degree so it's kinda hard to point
to experience as proof of a lack of prejudice.


This product misses the mark IMO.


But you don't say why in a detailed, convincing way.



What details do you need Arny? How about this? Everything it says it
does....I don't want doen to the sound of my CDs. Everything. So if
you need details review the descriptions of what it does. As for
"convincing?" who do I need to convince? I am quite convinced by the
description of what it does that the product misses the mark for me.


In fact, you've
presented no evidence that you've ever actually listened to it.


That is true. I put some faith in the manufacturer's description of
what the product does.

Could it be
that your opinions of it are based only on prejudice?


No it is based on experience with the distortions detailed in the
manufacturer's desciption and an assumption that the manufacturer is
actually making good on the claims about what the product does.



I am speaking as an
audiophile who is interested in the aesthetic value of
sound


Given that you have presented no first hand information about the sound o=

f
this product...



Excuse me for assuming the product delivers as advertised. Heck maybe
it doesn't....

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On Jul 29, 7:51=A0pm, Dick Pierce wrote:
Audio Empire wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:45:47 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):


[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Not only most but the vast majority of =A0people have long since forgot=

about
vinyl. The RIAA market share data makes that quite clear.


hundreds of manufacturers still make turntables,


Hundreds of turntable manufacturers? HUNDREDS?

Name 50 of them, 50 in business, in production, independent
manufacturers of turntables.


If I name fifty to I get a prize?
http://www.stereomojo.com/TurntableM...urersLinks.htm



Can we assume you mean high-fidelity, high quality playback
turntables, or are you including those intended for DJ
and similar uses?

I would be willing to bet that at any given time in last
50 years there were never HUNDREDS of turntable manufacturers
at any one time.

Now, this is entirely apart from any claims or couterclaims
about fidelity, desirability, personal satisfaction or
anyhting else.

I just find the claim of hundreds of turntable manufacturers
to be unjustifiably hyperbolic.


I suggest reading some of the back catalog of the old October issues
of Audio that listed all known equipment at the time of the issue.


Again, rumors of vinyl's demise is greatly exaggerated.


Not in question per se, but I would assert that the claim
of there being hundreds of turntable manufacturers to be,
well, greatly exaggerated, with all due respect.


It may well be but I would bet there are well over 100. My link was
hardly to a comprehensive list and it had well over fifty. granted a
few of those cited are not currently making turntables but just
servicing existing ones. But that would be just a few out of that
list. took me less than a minute to find that many.

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On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:51:06 -0700, Dick Pierce wrote
(in article ):

Audio Empire wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:45:47 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):


[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Not only most but the vast majority of people have long since forgot
about
vinyl. The RIAA market share data makes that quite clear.



hundreds of manufacturers still make turntables,


Hundreds of turntable manufacturers? HUNDREDS?

Name 50 of them, 50 in business, in production, independent
manufacturers of turntables.

Can we assume you mean high-fidelity, high quality playback
turntables, or are you including those intended for DJ
and similar uses?

I would be willing to bet that at any given time in last
50 years there were never HUNDREDS of turntable manufacturers
at any one time.

Now, this is entirely apart from any claims or couterclaims
about fidelity, desirability, personal satisfaction or
anyhting else.

I just find the claim of hundreds of turntable manufacturers
to be unjustifiably hyperbolic.

Again, rumors of vinyl's demise is greatly exaggerated.


Not in question per se, but I would assert that the claim
of there being hundreds of turntable manufacturers to be,
well, greatly exaggerated, with all due respect.



OK, I was using hyperbole, But I bet I can name 50 if I tried real hard and
did the research. And yes, I'm talking about "High Fidelity" not cheap DJ
style tables. Just off the top of my head:

Thorens
J.A. Michelle
S.M.E.
Well Tempered
Roksan
Linn
VPI
Rega
ClearAudio
Music Hall
Avid
Oracle
Pro-Ject
SOTA
Origin Live
IsoKinetik
Marantz
E.A.T. Forte
Pink Triangle
Denon
Walker
Kuzma Stabi
Voyd
Ariston
Systemdek
Wilson Benesch


Just off the top of my head, I've come up with 26, doing no research. And I
know of about 4 German tables, several Swiss tables, at least as many Italian
tables and god knows how many Chinese tables that I either don't know the
names of, or have forgotten their names. At any rate, there are a healthy
enough number of companies making tables to insure vinyl's future for a while
- naysayers notwithstanding.



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Dick Pierce said...

Hundreds of turntable manufacturers? HUNDREDS?

Name 50 of them, 50 in business, in production, independent
manufacturers of turntables.


http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/turntable.html

--
Ken O'Meara
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/



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On Jul 30, 6:00=A0am, John Nunes wrote:
On 7/29/2010 4:43 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

Wouldn't the fact that this "Vinylizer" introduces wow, flutter, tracki=

ng
distortion, ticks and pops automatically disqualify it from serious
consideration by ANY music lover? People who listen to vinyl, at least =

in my
considerable experience, still listen to it because of two distinct and
different reasons. One faction holds that LP sounds "better" than digit=

al,
and the other faction sees LP as just another source of music (that's t=

he
faction to which I, mostly, belong), like CD, FM radio, tape, downloads=

from
the internet, etc. Neither like warp wow, eccentric records, ticks or p=

ops,
mis-tracking, Inner-groove distortion, or any of the other ills that ca=

n
plague vinyl playback, and most, if not all vinyl listeners strive to a=

void
those things. The fact that this "Vinylizer seems to re-introduce these
unwanted artifacts to digital playback is missing the point. Now if it =

made
digital SOUND like a well recorded, well pressed vinyl record WITHOUT t=

hose
unwanted artifacts, then he'd have something.


You mention wow and flutter:

One of the strangest and neurotic quirks of the "high-end" are the many
expensive turntables that have come out in the last 25 years or so with
fancy bearings, very heavy platters and various elaborate and exotic
drive systems, of which one of the goals at least is to supposedly
reduce wow and flutter to the vanishing point, and indeed they usually
do to some extent.

Then what happens is that end users play their records that have
off-center spindle holes that swamps out in actual real world use by
very large and very audible amounts, any residual wow and flutter that
the fancy table has.

Whenever I mention this, and I've brought it up several times here in
this noisegroup, there are always the litany of replies that the
off-center holes can be fixed with a little trial and error. =A0This is
true, although it's very difficult to get really accurate to insure the
eccentricity (and thus the highly audible effect) is eliminated. =A0Yet t=

o
this day, I have yet to know (other than myself, and I've been around a
LOT) anyone in "high-end" that actually goes to this trouble and they
end up listening to wow and flutter, usually seeming oblivious that it's
really happening. =A0The effect bothers the hell out of me.

The only turntables that have addressed this in the design are the two
Nakamichi tables made in the 80's, and they never sold very well. =A0If I
recall correctly, one reviewer called one of the models a "turkey"
despite the fact that it effectively solved one of the very worst
problems with vinyl playback.

"High-end" is obsessed with tiny "differences" to the point where there
is a lot of controversy about even the existence of some of the claimed
"differences." =A0At the same time, there is a lot of ignoring and
ignorance of what are dramatic and highly audible faults such as this
off-center hole issue, but also something arguably more important: room
acoustics and the difficulties of getting speakers to couple to rooms
properly. =A0To illustrate this latter point, all one has to do is go to
Audiogon in the speaker ads for private users (not dealers, although it
can often be seen in those ads too) and notice pictures of systems with
no room treatment whatsoever, or if there is some, very little of it.

I think this phenomenon is really WEIRD, and reminiscent (in a different
way of course) of the contradictions one finds in religious cults.

- John


Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And yes it is
audible depending on the severity. But IME wiht most LPs it is not an
issue and would only be noticable to those who, for whatever reason,
are very very sensitive to that sepcific problem. I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their
playback though.

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On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 06:00:02 -0700, John Nunes wrote
(in article ):

On 7/29/2010 4:43 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

Wouldn't the fact that this "Vinylizer" introduces wow, flutter, tracking
distortion, ticks and pops automatically disqualify it from serious
consideration by ANY music lover? People who listen to vinyl, at least in my
considerable experience, still listen to it because of two distinct and
different reasons. One faction holds that LP sounds "better" than digital,
and the other faction sees LP as just another source of music (that's the
faction to which I, mostly, belong), like CD, FM radio, tape, downloads from
the internet, etc. Neither like warp wow, eccentric records, ticks or pops,
mis-tracking, Inner-groove distortion, or any of the other ills that can
plague vinyl playback, and most, if not all vinyl listeners strive to avoid
those things. The fact that this "Vinylizer seems to re-introduce these
unwanted artifacts to digital playback is missing the point. Now if it made
digital SOUND like a well recorded, well pressed vinyl record WITHOUT those
unwanted artifacts, then he'd have something.


You mention wow and flutter:

One of the strangest and neurotic quirks of the "high-end" are the many
expensive turntables that have come out in the last 25 years or so with
fancy bearings, very heavy platters and various elaborate and exotic
drive systems, of which one of the goals at least is to supposedly
reduce wow and flutter to the vanishing point, and indeed they usually
do to some extent.

Then what happens is that end users play their records that have
off-center spindle holes that swamps out in actual real world use by
very large and very audible amounts, any residual wow and flutter that
the fancy table has.


There's very little a record player company can do about warped or eccentric
records, but there have been attempts. Some Japanese company (I forget which)
came out with a very expensive 'table in the late '80's (I believe) which
used a very strong vacuum to pull a warped record hard to the patter (of
course a badly warped record couldn't be helped because the record had to be
flat enough to begin with to be able to pull a vacuum under it) and it used
the tone arm as a "centricity" sensor. When the arm tried to play an
eccentric (off center) record it would swing too-and-fro with the
eccentricity. Using sensors in the arm itself, the spindle, itself mounted
off-center, would move, thus moving the record until the arm swing was
nulled-out. I have no idea how well these systems worked as I've never
actually seen one of these 'tables. just read about it.

Whenever I mention this, and I've brought it up several times here in
this noisegroup, there are always the litany of replies that the
off-center holes can be fixed with a little trial and error. This is
true, although it's very difficult to get really accurate to insure the
eccentricity (and thus the highly audible effect) is eliminated. Yet to
this day, I have yet to know (other than myself, and I've been around a
LOT) anyone in "high-end" that actually goes to this trouble and they
end up listening to wow and flutter, usually seeming oblivious that it's
really happening. The effect bothers the hell out of me.


It bothers me as well. I used to take records back when I encountered this
phenomenon. But when that was impossible or impractical (I used have
traveling friends and collegues buy records for me in places like London or
Paris or Moscow and bring them back), I'd use a rat-tail file to enlarge the
hole and then put an arrow on the label with a pen to indicate where on the
periphery of the hole I should have the spindle touching. This meant that I
only had to find the venter ONCE.

The only turntables that have addressed this in the design are the two
Nakamichi tables made in the 80's, and they never sold very well. If I
recall correctly, one reviewer called one of the models a "turkey"
despite the fact that it effectively solved one of the very worst
problems with vinyl playback.


Yep, that's the one I was referring to above. That it wasn't a very good
record deck (few of those Japanese direct-drive units were) doesn't surprise
me. I don't even know if it was effective at it's "selling point" tasks of
addressing warped and eccentric records.

"High-end" is obsessed with tiny "differences" to the point where there
is a lot of controversy about even the existence of some of the claimed
"differences." At the same time, there is a lot of ignoring and
ignorance of what are dramatic and highly audible faults such as this
off-center hole issue, but also something arguably more important: room
acoustics and the difficulties of getting speakers to couple to rooms
properly. To illustrate this latter point, all one has to do is go to
Audiogon in the speaker ads for private users (not dealers, although it
can often be seen in those ads too) and notice pictures of systems with
no room treatment whatsoever, or if there is some, very little of it.

I think this phenomenon is really WEIRD, and reminiscent (in a different
way of course) of the contradictions one finds in religious cults.


To be fair, although I've encountered warped records from all labels and
genres, but I've only encountered eccentric records with "light music" labels
(folk, rock, film soundtracks, broadway musical cast albums, etc.) I don't
ever remember getting an eccentric classical record, even from cheap labels
like Vox, RCA Victrola, CBS Odyssey, Angel Seraphim, etc. Even records made
in what were then Socialist, "Iron Curtain" countries, like "Hungarotone",
East German "Parlophone", and the Soviet "Melodya" records were generally all
pretty well made using 100% virgin vinyl, usually at least 180 grams weight
(sometimes 200 grams) and never off-center. Of course, ANY record, even the
most carefully manufactured ones, can warp AFTER manufacture. It just needs
to be poorly packed at some point and sit in a rail car on a siding for a
couple of days in 100 degree summer heat....

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"Audio Empire" wrote in message

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:45:47 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message

On Jul 27, 4:48=A0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Jul 25, 2:49=3DA0pm, bob
wrote:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about
vinyl vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of
the various distortions characteristic of vinyl
playback. Well, it isn't that simple yet, but
technology finds a way:
http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/
Too bad this one completely missed the mark. It would
be a good idea if it were done right without the
cyncism. Maybe somebody who gets vinyl will make
something that will actually do the job.

What is "getting vinyl"?


Understanding the sonic aesthetic virtues that can be
found with vinyl.


The facts about vinyl in approximate order of
importance to most people:


Sorry you don't get to speak for most people.


Not only most but the vast majority of people have long
since forgot about vinyl. The RIAA market share data
makes that quite clear.


Yet enough people DO value vinyl that records are still
pressed and hundreds of manufacturers still make
turntables, some costing a small fortune, Cartridges are
still available at all price points from $20 on the low
end to tens of thousands on the high end with new ones
being introduced all the time. Not to mention a myriad of
phono preamps available, again at all price points, as
well as recently introduced preamps and integrated amps
that have phono stages either built-in as standard or
available as an option.


Two words: Niche products.

Again, rumors of vinyl's demise is greatly exaggerated.

Especially given your well documented prejudices on
vinyl.


What prejudice of mine is that? Is it not true that my
comments about vinyl have been 100% factual, and backed
by published, peer-reviewed technical papers,
statistical evidence from reliable industry sources and
decades of personal experience?


Your facts are not in question here. Your obvious and oft
stated disdain for vinyl is what gives away your
prejudice.


That's where you've got me wrong. I have no more or less disdain for vinyl
than I have for any other audio media with similar performance levels.
Furthermore, I have repeated defended the use of vinyl based on the unique
musical content that it carries.

This product misses the mark IMO.


But you don't say why in a detailed, convincing way. In
fact, you've presented no evidence that you've ever
actually listened to it. Could it be that your opinions
of it are based only on prejudice?

I am speaking as an
audiophile who is interested in the aesthetic value of
sound


Given that you have presented no first hand information
about the sound of this product...


Wouldn't the fact that this "Vinylizer" introduces wow,
flutter, tracking distortion, ticks and pops
automatically disqualify it from serious consideration by
ANY music lover?


Those very same performance problems do not diqualify vinyl itself,
according to the paragraph that forms your initial response to my post.

People who listen to vinyl, at least in
my considerable experience, still listen to it because of
two distinct and different reasons. One faction holds
that LP sounds "better" than digital, and the other
faction sees LP as just another source of music (that's
the faction to which I, mostly, belong), like CD, FM
radio, tape, downloads from the internet, etc. Neither
like warp wow, eccentric records, ticks or pops,
mis-tracking, Inner-groove distortion, or any of the
other ills that can plague vinyl playback, and most, if
not all vinyl listeners strive to avoid those things. The
fact that this "Vinylizer seems to re-introduce these
unwanted artifacts to digital playback is missing the
point. Now if it made digital SOUND like a well recorded,
well pressed vinyl record WITHOUT those unwanted
artifacts, then he'd have something.


I see a misidentification of a problem that we all agree exists. Digital
recordings on occasion fail to sound good simply because they are accurate
reproducers of mediocre technical work. Saying that DIGITAL needs some
add-on to make it sound good rather obviously paints all forms of digital
media with the same overly-broad brush. Anybody who is familiar with the
ins and outs of the process of producing musical recordings should be
well-aware of the fact that there is no single magic box that will undo all
of the careless and slipshod work that has been recorded on digital.

Indicting DIGITAL, as we frequently see being done here is a clear case of
shooting the messenger.


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"Scott" wrote in message

On Jul 29, 7:51=A0pm, Dick Pierce
wrote:
Audio Empire wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:45:47 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):


[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Not only most but the vast majority of =A0people have
long since forgot= about vinyl. The RIAA market share
data makes that quite clear.


hundreds of manufacturers still make turntables,


Hundreds of turntable manufacturers? HUNDREDS?

Name 50 of them, 50 in business, in production,
independent manufacturers of turntables.


If I name fifty to I get a prize?
http://www.stereomojo.com/TurntableM...urersLinks.htm



Scott, you still need to document that the list is composed 100% of
manufacturers who are in business and have independent products. There's
obviously some rebranding going on.

One need read only a few items on the list you linked to see that the list
may be bogus - since when is the well-known online retailer Amazon an
independent producer of turntables? Or is this a reference to "Amazon Audio
Products" (note my detective work and probable indentification of the
complete name of an actual German turntable manufacturer), thus putting the
accuracy and completeness of the list in a poor light from the standpoint of
accuracy and completeness of its entries?


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"Scott" wrote in message


Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.


Yes. However another irreducable problem - the non-flatness of the vinyl
causes FM distortion with high enough frequency content to qualify as
flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass modulation and tone
arms that are not linear tracking.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.


We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time. This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing disorder that
causes people to have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distoriton.

I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of
their playback though.


From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive to FM distortion

that we avoid LPs playback whereever possible, we tend to see those who
listen to LPs that have been reissued as good CDs as being in the category
of people who wish to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback.




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On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:09:44 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message

On Jul 29, 7:51=A0pm, Dick Pierce
wrote:
Audio Empire wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:45:47 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

Not only most but the vast majority of =A0people have
long since forgot= about vinyl. The RIAA market share
data makes that quite clear.

hundreds of manufacturers still make turntables,

Hundreds of turntable manufacturers? HUNDREDS?

Name 50 of them, 50 in business, in production,
independent manufacturers of turntables.


If I name fifty to I get a prize?
http://www.stereomojo.com/TurntableM...urersLinks.htm



Scott, you still need to document that the list is composed 100% of
manufacturers who are in business and have independent products. There's
obviously some rebranding going on.


I know of none. While it's true that some Rega, Music Hall, and Pro-ject
low-end tables are very similar, but if you look at them in the flesh, you
will see that they are not the same units at all.

One need read only a few items on the list you linked to see that the list
may be bogus - since when is the well-known online retailer Amazon an
independent producer of turntables? Or is this a reference to "Amazon Audio
Products" (note my detective work and probable indentification of the
complete name of an actual German turntable manufacturer), thus putting the
accuracy and completeness of the list in a poor light from the standpoint of
accuracy and completeness of its entries?


That's true. Amazon does not make turntables (or any other audio products).

There are easily 50 manufacturers making so-called high-end tables today,
perhaps more, but unlike my earlier flight of hyperbole, I think you'd really
have to struggle to reach 100. Still and all, that's a lot of manufacturers
vying for a piece of what is a pretty small market. I will predict this, that
vinyl production will outlive the physical CD.

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On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:10:00 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message


Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.


Yes. However another irreducable problem - the non-flatness of the vinyl
causes FM distortion with high enough frequency content to qualify as
flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass modulation and tone
arms that are not linear tracking.


Actually, the distortions caused by properly designed and set-up radial
tracking arms turns out to be negligible, and the advantages of linear
tracking turn out to be a tertiary effect.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.


We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time. This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing disorder that
causes people to have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distoriton.


It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of concert goers to listen
"around" sneezes and coughs and program rattling that occurs constantly
during most concerts.

I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of
their playback though.


From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive to FM distortion

that we avoid LPs playback whereever possible, we tend to see those who
listen to LPs that have been reissued as good CDs as being in the category
of people who wish to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback.


Then you'd be wrong. Most vinyl listeners don't listen to records that are
warped, eccentric, of full of FM distortion. I know that I don't.

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On Aug 2, 6:10=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.


Yes. However another irreducable problem - the non-flatness of the vinyl
causes FM distortion with high enough frequency content to qualify as
flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass modulation and tone
arms that are not linear tracking.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.


We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time.


This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing disorder that
causes people to have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distoriton.


It would be interesting to put your ability to the test under blind
conditions to hear all those nasty distortions on a real high end
player with a quality LP. I know that will never happen but my money
would be against you. And you wonder why some of us think you have a
severe prejudice against vinyl? Do show us the peer reviewed published
literature that supports this nonsense about those of us with this
alleged "hearing disorder."


I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of
their playback though.
From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive to FM distortion


that we avoid LPs playback whereever possible, we tend to see those who
listen to LPs that have been reissued as good CDs as being in the categor=

y
of people who wish to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback=


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On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:09:30 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Audio Empire" wrote in message

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:45:47 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message

On Jul 27, 4:48=A0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Jul 25, 2:49=3DA0pm, bob
wrote:
Occasionally, during one of our long threads about
vinyl vs. digital,someone suggests the invention of a
"vinylizer," a knob that can dial in any amount of
the various distortions characteristic of vinyl
playback. Well, it isn't that simple yet, but
technology finds a way:
http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/
Too bad this one completely missed the mark. It would
be a good idea if it were done right without the
cyncism. Maybe somebody who gets vinyl will make
something that will actually do the job.

What is "getting vinyl"?

Understanding the sonic aesthetic virtues that can be
found with vinyl.

The facts about vinyl in approximate order of
importance to most people:

Sorry you don't get to speak for most people.


Not only most but the vast majority of people have long
since forgot about vinyl. The RIAA market share data
makes that quite clear.


Yet enough people DO value vinyl that records are still
pressed and hundreds of manufacturers still make
turntables, some costing a small fortune, Cartridges are
still available at all price points from $20 on the low
end to tens of thousands on the high end with new ones
being introduced all the time. Not to mention a myriad of
phono preamps available, again at all price points, as
well as recently introduced preamps and integrated amps
that have phono stages either built-in as standard or
available as an option.


Two words: Niche products.


One word: Irrelevant. MacDonalds sells more hamburgers in an hour than
Morton's or Ruth's Chris steak houses sell steaks in a year, does that make
these "high-end" restaurants "niche" restaurants? Market share is no
indication of viability in markets catering to different strata of the same
market or different markets.


Again, rumors of vinyl's demise is greatly exaggerated.

Especially given your well documented prejudices on
vinyl.

What prejudice of mine is that? Is it not true that my
comments about vinyl have been 100% factual, and backed
by published, peer-reviewed technical papers,
statistical evidence from reliable industry sources and
decades of personal experience?


Your facts are not in question here. Your obvious and oft
stated disdain for vinyl is what gives away your
prejudice.


That's where you've got me wrong. I have no more or less disdain for vinyl
than I have for any other audio media with similar performance levels.


You should re-read the above. Your disdain for vinyl is palpable here and I
don't believe we've ever discussed "other audio media with similar
performance levels".

Furthermore, I have repeated defended the use of vinyl based on the unique
musical content that it carries.


There's a phrase that covers that. It's called "damning with faint praise".

This product misses the mark IMO.

But you don't say why in a detailed, convincing way. In
fact, you've presented no evidence that you've ever
actually listened to it. Could it be that your opinions
of it are based only on prejudice?

I am speaking as an
audiophile who is interested in the aesthetic value of
sound

Given that you have presented no first hand information
about the sound of this product...


Wouldn't the fact that this "Vinylizer" introduces wow,
flutter, tracking distortion, ticks and pops
automatically disqualify it from serious consideration by
ANY music lover?


Those very same performance problems do not diqualify vinyl itself,


That's because those are not inherent qualities of phonograph records
themselves, they are, however, possible DEFECTS in phonograph records. I must
say that my collection exhibits very few of any of those defects. And while
they might show-up more often than any record listener might like, it does,
in no way. alter the fact that these defects are unwanted.

according to the paragraph that forms your initial response to my post.

People who listen to vinyl, at least in
my considerable experience, still listen to it because of
two distinct and different reasons. One faction holds
that LP sounds "better" than digital, and the other
faction sees LP as just another source of music (that's
the faction to which I, mostly, belong), like CD, FM
radio, tape, downloads from the internet, etc. Neither
like warp wow, eccentric records, ticks or pops,
mis-tracking, Inner-groove distortion, or any of the
other ills that can plague vinyl playback, and most, if
not all vinyl listeners strive to avoid those things. The
fact that this "Vinylizer seems to re-introduce these
unwanted artifacts to digital playback is missing the
point. Now if it made digital SOUND like a well recorded,
well pressed vinyl record WITHOUT those unwanted
artifacts, then he'd have something.


I see a misidentification of a problem that we all agree exists. Digital
recordings on occasion fail to sound good simply because they are accurate
reproducers of mediocre technical work.


I wish that were true. The fact is that most CD releases do not represent,
accurately, the information that is on the master tape. CD is capable, with
out being a so-called "high-resolution" format such as SACD or DVD-A or even
high-definition download formats such as 24/96 or 24/192, of much higher
levels of performance than most commercial releases put on them. Fact is,
most commercial releases, irrespective of the level of performance available
on CD or other digital media, is a pale shadow of the master. I've heard it
dozens of times. One here's a master or a copy of a master, and then buys the
CD when it's released only to find that it's been compressed and limited and
had whatever else done to it to render it extremely disappointing. This seems
to be the rule rather than the exception and I don't know why. CD can be
astonishingly good, but it rarely is - even so-called "audiophile releases"
sound nowhere as good as the digital masters from which they were cut. Hell,
I have highly touted recordings where the vinyl reissue sounds so much better
than the CD of the same performance, that it's hard to believe that both
renditions came from the same master tape.

Saying that DIGITAL needs some
add-on to make it sound good rather obviously paints all forms of digital
media with the same overly-broad brush.


Nothing wrong with digital. It's potentially as good as technology can
provide. There is a lot wrong with most releases, however. It's funny that a
lot of people spend a lot of money and time chasing these high-resolution
formats around the Internet, when the truth is that most of them have never
even heard a glimpse of what plain-old Redbook CD is capable of doing.

I play Redbook CDs for people made from my own digital recordings without any
signal processing whatsoever, and their jaws drop at the quality. Most have
simply never heard anything that sounded THAT real. The funny part is, it's
relatively easy to make recordings of this quality. Why commercial interests
feel that they have to water recordings down so much before releasing them is
beyond me.

Anybody who is familiar with the
ins and outs of the process of producing musical recordings should be
well-aware of the fact that there is no single magic box that will undo all
of the careless and slipshod work that has been recorded on digital.


While that is true as well, a lot of seems to me to be deliberate.

Indicting DIGITAL, as we frequently see being done here is a clear case of
shooting the messenger.


Well, you certainly won't find me condemning digital AS A PROCESS, but I will
condemn what most commercial record companies do with it. And increasing the
bit-rate and depth won't help much because most of those so-called
high-resolution releases are flawed in the same manner as the Redbook
releases of the same materials.

Like I have often said on this forum. Vinyl LP is NOT the end-all or the
be-all of high-fidelity listening, but it is another viable source of music
(KEY phrase here). Often, it's preferred to the digital releases of the same
recordings because it's more honest to the original master tape than are the
digital releases. It just seems that often, the processing that occurs in
vinyl mastering does less audible (or at least more musically pleasing)
damage to what was captured on the "master tape" than is the CD mastering of
the same material. Again, I don't pretend to know why this would be so. All I
know is that it's there for all to hear who want to hear it.

But again, (Another KEY phrase coming) regular old Redbook CD is capable of
astonishing levels of quality playback, but the average consumer doesn't get
to hear that quality because it's NOT transferred to the CD by the record
companies.

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Harry Lavo Harry Lavo is offline
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"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
...
No one is denying there's a market. But you and everyone else
have yet to show that it is not a niche market, and, by
sheer annual unit salkes, NOT by the nu,ber of manufacturers,
it is a very SMALL market, especially compared to what it
was in the early to mid 1970's. If you want to dispute those
facts, go argue with the LP equipment and media manufacturers,
it's their numbers.

Now, once again, this is not syaing LPs are bad, LPs are good,
or LPs are anything one way or another. But the simple fact
is that it's a very much smaller market than it used to be.

--


I haven't heard anybody in years argue that it is anything but a niche
market, Dick, and certainly not Audio Empire. What he has argued, and I and
others as well, is that it is a growing market, and not just a DJ market.
It has caught on among a segment of the younger folk, and not only old vinyl
but many new recordings are being released on vinyl....and it is not just
craven pop music...Allen Toussaint's recent award-winning jazz recording
"The Bright Mississippi" has been released on vinyl, for instance. That's
all Audio Empire or anybody else who is serious has said.

But even saying that much seems to bring out a chorusline of vinyl-phobics.



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bob bob is offline
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On Aug 2, 12:38=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:

There are easily 50 manufacturers making so-called high-end tables today,
perhaps more, but unlike my earlier flight of hyperbole, I think you'd re=

ally
have to struggle to reach 100. Still and all, that's a lot of manufacture=

rs
vying for a piece of what is a pretty small market.


The reason there are a lot of little manufacturers is that the market
is too small to attract a larger maker who could take advantage of
economies of scale. A healthier market might actually see fewer but
larger producers.

A better way to make the case for the continued vitality of this
(admittedly tiny) market is to look at the major retailers. Best Buy
and Crutchfield now carry Pro-Ject. J&R carries Music Hall. That's far
more significant than some guy making 5 $20,000 tables a year in his
garage.

I will predict this, that
vinyl production will outlive the physical CD.


And I will predict that 16/44.1 will still be the standard for
uncompressed digital audio after the last vinyl plant closes.Only the
distribution channel will change.

bob
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Scott[_6_] Scott[_6_] is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

On Aug 2, 10:19=A0am, Dick Pierce wrote:


No one is denying there's a market. But you and everyone else
have yet to show that it is not a niche market, and, by
sheer annual unit salkes, NOT by the nu,ber of manufacturers,
it is a very SMALL market, especially compared to what it
was in the early to mid 1970's. If you want to dispute those
facts, go argue with the LP equipment and media manufacturers,
it's their numbers.

Now, once again, this is not syaing LPs are bad, LPs are good,
or LPs are anything one way or another. But the simple fact
is that it's a very much smaller market than it used to be.


Yep. It is a niche market and much smaller than it used to be.
Probably a good thing for audiophiles. Not probably, definitely. The
market for hardware and vinyl is certainly in a golden age when it
comes to quality. It may not be a "big" market but it sure is a "good"
market. That is what matters to me.

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Jenn[_2_] Jenn[_2_] is offline
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Default The Vinylizer

In article ,
"Harry Lavo" wrote:

What he has argued, and I and
others as well, is that it is a growing market, and not just a DJ market.
It has caught on among a segment of the younger folk, and not only old vinyl
but many new recordings are being released on vinyl....and it is not just
craven pop music...Allen Toussaint's recent award-winning jazz recording
"The Bright Mississippi" has been released on vinyl, for instance. That's
all Audio Empire or anybody else who is serious has said.

But even saying that much seems to bring out a chorusline of vinyl-phobics.


So true. All I have said, for example, is that I like some LPs, and
that the best recorded sound that I have heard in my or anyone else's
home was from a few excellent examples of the medium and the hardware.
I have further pointed out that I believe that overall, CD is the better
medium and that I own many more CDs than LPs. For my trouble, I was
branded as a "vinyl bigot." Go figure.

ALL physical media are down in sales compared to a few years ago.
That's a fact. It's also a fact that many new releases are now released
on LP, and if one knows anything about retail, one knows that shelf
space is valuable and vendors are not likely to waste space on something
that is not going to sell.

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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Audio Empire" wrote in message

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:09:30 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):


I see a misidentification of a problem that we all agree
exists. Digital recordings on occasion fail to sound
good simply because they are accurate reproducers of
mediocre technical work.


I wish that were true.


It's truth is proven fact.

The fact is that most CD releases
do not represent, accurately, the information that is on
the master tape.


It takes considerable naivate about the normal production process to
consider that to be a technical flaw.

Master tapes very frequently are not commerically acceptable when they are
accurate representations of the master tape. That's why mastering engineers
are still a valuable resource.

Commerical recordings must satisfy a large number of listeners to be good
commercial products. Musical recordings often have excess dynamics and
often contain excess power at the low end of the audible spectrum to sound
acceptable in the limited environments that most consumers listen to them
in.


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Greg Wormald Greg Wormald is offline
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In article ,
Jenn wrote:

ALL physical media are down in sales compared to a few years ago.
That's a fact. It's also a fact that many new releases are now released
on LP, and if one knows anything about retail, one knows that shelf
space is valuable and vendors are not likely to waste space on something
that is not going to sell.


Absolutely.

I haven't been in to physical music store in years! And when they start
offering uncompressed albums, I won't be buying physical CD's either.

Greg



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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"Harry Lavo" wrote in message


I haven't heard anybody in years argue that it is
anything but a niche market, Dick, and certainly not
Audio Empire.


I just showed again that while nobody who knows what's going on can argue
that vinyl is anything but a niche market, we see plenty of examples of
where its advocates can't just leave it at that. We still get all this
rah-rah about how many manufacturers there are, and how many dozens of new
releases of media there are.

Nobody knows how big the entire digital music market is since so much
product bypasses the channels that RIAA monitors. It still takes a pressing
plant to make LPs, while anybody who can upload to UTube can move 100,000s
of copies of their latest hit in a few days after playing the music in their
bedroom.

What he has argued, and I and others as
well, is that it is a growing market, and not just a DJ
market.


Nobody who knows whats going on says that LP is just a DJ market, but even
the DJ segment is suffering at the hands of digital hardware and software
that simulates scratching. The DJ maket is about quick setup and takedown,
so hauling 100's of LPs is very counter-productive.

The numerical growth of late has been in ca. $100 USB-based LP players. They
are plastic novelty items. Their sound quality is generally substandard,
even for vinyl. Frankly, many of them damage or destroy precious legacy
media with as little as one playing.



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"Audio Empire" wrote in message

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:10:00 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message


Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.


Yes. However another irreducable problem - the
non-flatness of the vinyl causes FM distortion with high
enough frequency content to qualify as flutter.


There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass
modulation and tone arms that are not linear tracking.


Actually, the distortions caused by properly designed and
set-up radial tracking arms turns out to be negligible,
and the advantages of linear tracking turn out to be a
tertiary effect.


Actually, the distortions produced by LP playback systems incorporating the
best designed
tone arms that utilize any technology turns out to be readily audible.

Whether a given person perceives these potentially audible distoritons is up
to them, but if they fail to perceive them then they are somehow missing
spurious responses that are well above the normal human thesholds for
reliable perception of linear and nonlinear distortion.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only
be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.


We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time.
This suggests to me that there must be some kind of
highly selective hearing disorder that causes people to
have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distortion.


It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of
concert goers to listen "around" sneezes and coughs and
program rattling that occurs constantly during most
concerts.


Coughs and sneezes at concerts are relatively infrequent, while the
potentially audible noise and distortion that is inherent in vinyl is
unending. It starts when the needle is dropped and it continues until it is
lifted up. To enjoy vinyl you have to listen past the ongoing racket of
potentially readily audible noise and distortion.

I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound
of
their playback though.


From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive
to FM distortion

that we avoid LPs playback wherever possible, we tend
to see those who listen to LPs that have been reissued
as good CDs as being in the category of people who wish
to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback.


Then you'd be wrong. Most vinyl listeners don't listen to
records that are warped, eccentric, of full of FM
distortion. I know that I don't.


Whether you perceive this ongoing racket or not is up to you, but it is very
easy to measure this noise and distortion using legacy measurement equipment
that finds modern media to be free of distortion.


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"Scott" wrote in message


It would be interesting to put your ability to the test
under blind conditions to hear all those nasty
distortions on a real high end player with a quality LP.


It's already been done, and it is a slam dunk.

The LP format audible mangles any music that you record on it.

Here's the challenge. Produce 2 CDs. One of the finished recording that
will be mastered to LP, and one of the best possible transcription of that
recording from a LP made from the same master as was used to make the CD. It
is easy to show that a CD can easily be a sonically transparent copy of the
original master *and* the LP playback. It is easy to show that the digital
transcription of the LP will not produce random guessing in an ABX
comparison of the two. They won't sound just a little different.

I've already come as close to doing this comparison as I could with the
resources available to me, years ago. If you want to try to reduce me to
random guessing, then its up to you to find better resources. Once you have
produced your new, improved evidence, then I will sucessfully ABX them with
an audience of witnesses.

I am confident that if you collect this evidence, you will first listen to
them yourself and you will be so disappointed that you will never send it to
me.

I know that will never happen but my money would be
against you.


You already lost the bet.

And you wonder why some of us think you have
a severe prejudice against vinyl?


I wonder about claims that are so easily falsified.

Do show us the peer
reviewed published literature that supports this nonsense
about those of us with this alleged "hearing disorder."


The formal, peer-reviewed literature of the irreducable audible distortion
that inherent in vinyl was published in the JAES and IEEE proceedings back
in the days when vinyl was all we had. I've cited it here many times.



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Scott[_6_] Scott[_6_] is offline
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On Aug 2, 6:10=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.


Yes. However another irreducable problem - the non-flatness of the vinyl
causes FM distortion with high enough frequency content to qualify as
flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass modulation and tone
arms that are not linear tracking.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.


We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time.


This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing disorder that
causes people to have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distoriton.


It would be interesting to put your ability to the test under blind
conditions to hear all those nasty distortions on a real high end
player with a quality LP. I know that will never happen but my money
would be against you. And you wonder why some of us think you have a
severe prejudice against vinyl? Do show us the peer reviewed published
literature that supports this nonsense about those of us with this
alleged "hearing disorder."


I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of
their playback though.
From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive to FM distortion


that we avoid LPs playback whereever possible, we tend to see those who
listen to LPs that have been reissued as good CDs as being in the categor=

y
of people who wish to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback=


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On Aug 3, 12:10=A0pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



It would be interesting to put your ability to the test
under blind conditions to hear all those nasty
distortions on a real high end player with a quality LP.


It's already been done, and it is a slam dunk.


Please excuse my skepticism but you haven't done it with my rig and my
records. If you can identify those distortions by ear with my stuff I
will certainly concede the point. I just don't have any faith in your
alleged "slam dunk." When you "dunk on me" then you can do a little
NBA style trash talkin. Till then it's just talkin.


The LP format audible mangles any music that you record on it.

Here's the challenge. Produce 2 CDs. =A0One of the finished recording tha=

t
will be mastered to LP, and one of the best possible transcription of tha=

t
recording from a LP made from the same master as was used to make the CD.=

It
is easy to show that a CD can easily be a sonically transparent copy of t=

he
original master *and* the LP playback. It is easy to show that the digita=

l
transcription of the LP will not produce random guessing in an ABX
comparison of the two. =A0They won't sound just a little different.

I've already come as close to doing this comparison as I could with the
resources available to me, years ago. If you want to try to reduce me to
random guessing, then its up to you to find better resources. =A0Once you=

have
produced your new, improved evidence, then I will sucessfully ABX them wi=

th
an audience of witnesses.

I am confident that if you collect this evidence, you will first listen t=

o
them yourself and you will be so disappointed that you will never send it=

to
me.


How about this for a challenge. When I get the system out of storage
after I make the big move, I record several of my LPs on my rig on
24/96 and then down load some CDs. Let's say twenty samples. Then you,
by ear, identify which ones are vinyl and which ones are not. I mean
if they are as distorted as you say you should get 20 out of 20 but
I'd be willing to set the bar at 16 correct answers as proof that you
really can hear those distortions even on my system with my LPs of
choice.


I know that will never happen but my money would be
against you.


You already lost the bet.


No we haven't got to the bet. If you want to make my challenge
interesting feel free to make me a proposition. As for now the
challenge is for bragging rights. Show me you can identify vinyl by
ear because of these distortions on my rig with my LPs and you win.
Should be easy no?


And you wonder why some of us think you have
a severe prejudice against vinyl?


I wonder about claims that are so easily falsified.


Well my claim is you will fail in the test I am proposing. Wanna
"falsify" it?


Do show us the peer
reviewed published literature that supports this nonsense
about those of us with this alleged "hearing disorder."


The formal, peer-reviewed literature of the irreducable audible distortio=

n
that inherent in vinyl was published in the JAES and IEEE proceedings bac=

k
in the days when vinyl was all we had. I've cited it here many times.


Sorry but that is a no show.
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