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#1
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Vinyl making a comeback?
I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback.
This based on anecdotal evidence: in two local (San Francisco Bay East Bay area) record shops I've visited recently, people working in both have told me that their vinyl sales are up--way up in one case. (Mostly used stuff, but some new LP releases.) As we know, CD sales are basically in the toilet. The younger generation seems to be getting most of its "music" (if that's what it can be called) via non-physical means, many (most?) of which are tinny and harsh-sounding, but since that's all they know, they seem to like it. But independent of this, vinyl sales have increased. Anyhow, it's gratifying to see what appears to be a return to an older, discarded analog recording medium. We'll see how much of a comeback it really is. -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#2
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... Anyhow, it's gratifying to see what appears to be a return to an older, discarded analog recording medium. Why? It was discarded for very good reasons. What is needed is a return to good quality mastering, it will be intersting to see if they actually managed that with the new releases of the Beatles albums next week. I'm hoping they did, and that it sparks an interest in more of the same, rather than a return to high cost, low quality playback equipment. We'll see how much of a comeback it really is. It never went away, simply became a very minor fringe/nostalgia media. Even the disco DJ's seem to be going digital as far as I can see. MrT. |
#3
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback. Something? Hmm, anything is something. Will vinyl ever become a mainstream medium? Unlikely. Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl? Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. |
#4
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Vinyl making a comeback?
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback. Something? Hmm, anything is something. Will vinyl ever become a mainstream medium? Unlikely. Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl? Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. The other thing is that although the youngsters will download their music, the older generation still prefers CDs and the grey power brigade have a much greater disposable income. Cheers Ian |
#5
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback. Something? Hmm, anything is something. Will vinyl ever become a mainstream medium? Unlikely. Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl? Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. The other thing is that although the youngsters will download their music, the older generation still prefers CDs and the grey power brigade have a much greater disposable income. Good point. People who think that dancing on the grave of CDs will bring back vinyl are playing a very strange game. |
#6
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/4/2009 6:45 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message The other thing is that although the youngsters will download their music, the older generation still prefers CDs and the grey power brigade have a much greater disposable income. Good point. People who think that dancing on the grave of CDs will bring back vinyl are playing a very strange game. I don't mean to claim there's a direct correlation between declining CD sales and increasing LP sales, though there are some interesting relationships in play. And of course vinyl will never again become the dominant medium. But that's not the point here. I think the point about who's got the money is an important one too. -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#7
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Vinyl making a comeback?
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/4/2009 6:45 AM Arny Krueger spake thus: "Ian Bell" wrote in message The other thing is that although the youngsters will download their music, the older generation still prefers CDs and the grey power brigade have a much greater disposable income. Good point. People who think that dancing on the grave of CDs will bring back vinyl are playing a very strange game. I don't mean to claim there's a direct correlation between declining CD sales and increasing LP sales, though there are some interesting relationships in play. And of course vinyl will never again become the dominant medium. But that's not the point here. I think the point about who's got the money is an important one too. The other point is that, since vinyl sales are tiny compared to all other media, they can increase ten fold and still be three fifths of bugger all. Cheers ian |
#8
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl? Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!! (I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same technology) So the question is whether CD will last 80+ years? Or, who cares anyway? :-) MrT. |
#9
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/4/2009 10:17 PM Mr.T spake thus:
"Arny Krueger" [maybe] wrote in message ... Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl? Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!! (I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same technology) So the question is whether CD will last 80+ years? Or, who cares anyway? :-) Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Or what *should* the next medium be? (Not necessarily the same thing, of course.) (And don't forget wax and shellac recordings.) -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#10
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Vinyl making a comeback?
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/4/2009 10:17 PM Mr.T spake thus: "Arny Krueger" [maybe] wrote in message ... Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl? Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!! (I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same technology) So the question is whether CD will last 80+ years? Or, who cares anyway? :-) Both good questions, actually. Well, if you are going to include products based on the same technology to get 80 years for for vinyl then the CD already has 30 years to its credit. Cheers Ian |
#11
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Vinyl making a comeback?
David Nebenzahl wrote:
Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Medialess, the cd has already become a transport medium rather than a playback medium. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#12
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com On 9/4/2009 10:17 PM Mr.T spake thus: So what do you see as the next medium? It's already here - just a data file on no particular medium in particular. |
#13
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/5/2009 2:47 AM Peter Larsen spake thus:
David Nebenzahl wrote: Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Medialess, the cd has already become a transport medium rather than a playback medium. What about those people who prefer some kind of tangible thing, as opposed to something just grabbed out of the ether? You know, something with pictures, liner notes, etc. Is that just so 20th century? -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#14
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Vinyl making a comeback?
David Nebenzahl wrote:
What about those people who prefer some kind of tangible thing, as opposed to something just grabbed out of the ether? You know, something with pictures, liner notes, etc. the pdf has not replaced the beautifully printed book. Is that just so 20th century? No, it is just a niche market. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#15
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/4/2009 10:17 PM Mr.T spake thus: "Arny Krueger" [maybe] wrote in message ... Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl? Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!! (I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same technology) So the question is whether CD will last 80+ years? Or, who cares anyway? :-) Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Or what *should* the next medium be? (Not necessarily the same thing, of course.) That's the transistion. CDs aren't disappearing because a better medium came along (be it the more portable notion of cassettes that helped to drive off records, or the higher density and maybe better sound of the CD that finished off records). They are disappearing because people are either not buying music, or have decided to buy electronically. I find this terrible. My 30 year old records still exist, they are tangible complete with the record covers. Same with CDs, I can pop those in my computer and make them digital or even into MP3s, and while those formats are even better than CD convenience wise (just like CDs were more convenient than records by being smaller, higher density, and in equipment that could be remotely controlled), I want the tangible CD to ensure I actually have the music. Yes, I suppose the CD could break or get scratched and become useless. But I damaged only one of my records, through stupidity, in thirty years, so why should I expect CDs to fail? But there does seem something terribly insecure about buying a digital file and keeping it on my hard drive. There's a world of difference between choosing to convert CDs or cassettes or records into MP3s for practical reasons, and a scenario where MP3s become the form of music because the smaller size makes it easier to retrieve. Michael (And don't forget wax and shellac recordings.) -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com On 9/5/2009 2:47 AM Peter Larsen spake thus: David Nebenzahl wrote: Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Medialess, the cd has already become a transport medium rather than a playback medium. What about those people who prefer some kind of tangible thing, as opposed to something just grabbed out of the ether? You know, something with pictures, liner notes, etc. Go to a place that didn't exist even as a dream, back when vinyl was king. The artist's web site. Is that just so 20th century? Yes. We're just about a decade into the 21st century. It is time for some people to man up and realize that they aren't in Kansas any more! ;-) |
#17
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k David Nebenzahl wrote: What about those people who prefer some kind of tangible thing, as opposed to something just grabbed out of the ether? You know, something with pictures, liner notes, etc. the pdf has not replaced the beautifully printed book. In some ways, it has surpassed it. Besides, the PDF is not all there is for music fans to enjoy. We don't live in times that are limited to just those things that can be put into a cardboard folder. Is that just so 20th century? No, it is just a niche market. Yes, vinyl is a tiny niche with just a few very vocal people who promote it uber alles. |
#18
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/6/2009 4:31 AM Dick Pierce spake thus:
Michael Black wrote: There's a world of difference between choosing to convert CDs or cassettes or records into MP3s for practical reasons, and a scenario where MP3s become the form of music because the smaller size makes it easier to retrieve. Are you equating "digital" with "MP3?" Isn't that a valid assumption? I mean, aren't 99.9% of music files used by consumers in that format? There are other, higher-quality formats, but they're certainly not widely used, are they? -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#19
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Vinyl making a comeback?
David Nebenzahl wrote:
I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback. This based on anecdotal evidence: in two local (San Francisco Bay East Bay area) record shops I've visited recently, people working in both have told me that their vinyl sales are up--way up in one case. (Mostly used stuff, but some new LP releases.) As we know, CD sales are basically in the toilet. The younger generation seems to be getting most of its "music" (if that's what it can be called) via non-physical means, many (most?) of which are tinny and harsh-sounding, but since that's all they know, they seem to like it. But independent of this, vinyl sales have increased. Anyhow, it's gratifying to see what appears to be a return to an older, discarded analog recording medium. We'll see how much of a comeback it really is. Maybe if people get back a taste for sound quality, then they'll move from vinyl 'back' to CD ! geoff |
#20
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Vinyl making a comeback?
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/5/2009 2:47 AM Peter Larsen spake thus: David Nebenzahl wrote: Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Medialess, the cd has already become a transport medium rather than a playback medium. What about those people who prefer some kind of tangible thing, as opposed to something just grabbed out of the ether? You know, something with pictures, liner notes, etc. Is that just so 20th century? Something with an actual physicality and perceived value, unlike downlaoded (even if paid for) music. geoff |
#21
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/6/2009 3:05 PM Dick Pierce spake thus:
David Nebenzahl wrote: I mean, aren't 99.9% of music files used by consumers in that format? You sure it's not 99.87623%? Where do you get the figure 99.9%? It's a rhetorical device standing in for "practically all". There are other, higher-quality formats, but they're certainly not widely used, are they? Let's see, EVERY CD uses uncompressed linear PCM. Files ripped from PCs are, by default, liner PCM. Are you suggesting that CDs and the like "are not widely used? I meant *besides* CDs. So let me restate the question: excluding CDs (and WAV files ripped on a computer and the like), aren't the vast majority of sound files people listen to in the MP3 format? -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#22
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/6/2009 4:12 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com On 9/5/2009 2:47 AM Peter Larsen spake thus: David Nebenzahl wrote: Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Medialess, the cd has already become a transport medium rather than a playback medium. What about those people who prefer some kind of tangible thing, as opposed to something just grabbed out of the ether? You know, something with pictures, liner notes, etc. Go to a place that didn't exist even as a dream, back when vinyl was king. The artist's web site. Is that just so 20th century? Yes. We're just about a decade into the 21st century. It is time for some people to man up and realize that they aren't in Kansas any more! ;-) Ya know, I just love it when the techno-fascists start in on how anyone who prefers vinyl must be some kind of retrograde Luddite or some such. Now I know that term (techno-fascist) is offensive, and I don't use it lightly. They're not content to let us know that the newfangled stuff is better in so many ways, which might be a reasonable argument: no, in addition to that, they see it as their mission to quarantine the world against a possible outbreak of regression to yesterday's technology. They belittle anyone who prefers vinyl to CDs (or film to digital photography). This is not the same thing as, say, digital TV vs. analog TV. In that case, it really is a case of having one technology or the other; economic and physical constraints make having both formats and being able to choose between them impractical. I recognize that and accept it. But there's *nothing* inherent in the production and sale of music discs that similarly would preclude someone from being able to choose one format over another; in fact, vinyl is still being produced (albeit in very limited quantities), which in no way inconveniences CD users or constitutes a barrier to sales of other formats. So why the continued invective against those who like LPs? I'm quite willing to admit that vinyl is in no way the ideal format; I just happen to like it for a number of reasons. I'm not claiming it's the end-all and be-all of music reproduction formats. It's difficult to eliminate surface noise, and the recordings can physically degrade when played. But there are also problems with CDs, as you well know. I get the same bull**** from digital photography zealots. Today I visited my favorite photo shop in Berkeley, Looking Glass Photo. They sell digital cameras, inkjet paper, and accessories. They also do a brisk business selling film cameras, film, paper, chemicals, enlargers, and other wet photographic stuff. Are they also Luddites? Do you think they should just "get over it" and pitch all that horrible backwards stuff? How 20th century can you get? -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#23
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"Ian Bell" wrote in message ... Well, if you are going to include products based on the same technology to get 80 years for for vinyl then the CD already has 30 years to its credit. And 28 even if you don't! Only half a century or so to go then :-) MrT. |
#24
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... Ya know, I just love it when the techno-fascists start in on how anyone who prefers vinyl must be some kind of retrograde Luddite or some such. And they're not? :-) in addition to that, they see it as their mission to quarantine the world against a possible outbreak of regression to yesterday's technology. Nope, no fear of that happening. They belittle anyone who prefers vinyl to CDs (or film to digital photography). Nope, only those who claim vinyl is "superior". IMO opinion a person is entitled to "prefer" anything they like, so long as they don't make ridiculous claims to justify their preferences. No justification is even needed, yet most cannot accept their preference is based on anything other than technical superiority, despite all facts to the contrary. But there's *nothing* inherent in the production and sale of music discs that similarly would preclude someone from being able to choose one format over another; in fact, vinyl is still being produced (albeit in very limited quantities), which in no way inconveniences CD users or constitutes a barrier to sales of other formats. So why the continued invective against those who like LPs? Indeed, and why the continual claims for "superiority" of vinyl? IME it's always the vinyl devotees that even raise the issue. I'm quite willing to admit that vinyl is in no way the ideal format; I just happen to like it for a number of reasons. I'm not claiming it's the end-all and be-all of music reproduction formats. It's difficult to eliminate surface noise, and the recordings can physically degrade when played. But there are also problems with CDs, as you well know. The cover art is too small for failing eyesight? I get the same bull**** from digital photography zealots. Today I visited my favorite photo shop in Berkeley, Looking Glass Photo. They sell digital cameras, inkjet paper, and accessories. They also do a brisk business selling film cameras, film, paper, chemicals, enlargers, and other wet photographic stuff. Are they also Luddites? Do you think they should just "get over it" and pitch all that horrible backwards stuff? Not as long as there is a market and money to be made! I haven't thrown out my film camera's or enlarger, but I certainly prefer digital in nearly every aspect, except trying to get proper B&W prints made from it. MrT. |
#25
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Or what *should* the next medium be? (Not necessarily the same thing, of course.) Solid state media cards. A 1GB SD card could easily be used now at current prices, but it won't happen unfortunately, simply because they can charge just as much for downloads it seems, and YOU have to pay for the card/storage media, pay the internet fees to download it, pay to print the artwork etc.(if any is even provided.) No media manufacturing, warehousing, distribution, or retail mark-up costs, coupled with approximately the same end user charge, equals *FAR* more profit for them!!! (minus what they spend on legal fees pursuing those who won't pay so much for lossy-compressed media-less "bits" of course) MrT. |
#26
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... On 9/6/2009 4:31 AM Dick Pierce spake thus: Are you equating "digital" with "MP3?" Isn't that a valid assumption? I mean, aren't 99.9% of music files used by consumers in that format? There are other, higher-quality formats, but they're certainly not widely used, are they? Of course they are! CD *IS* digital! How much more widely used do you want? Many people also choose Wave or FLAC for their other storage requirements. It's only the record companies once again who are *******s and rarely offer downloads in those formats. MrT. |
#27
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... I mean, aren't 99.9% of music files used by consumers in that format? I meant *besides* CDs. So let me restate the question: excluding CDs (and WAV files ripped on a computer and the like), aren't the vast majority of sound files people listen to in the MP3 format? Nope, nothing like the 99% you quote! First you have to subtract most of the Apple format users (fairly big numbers there), then those who prefer WMA, then those who prefer high quality formats like Wave and FLAC, and then the other disk formats like DVDA, ATRAC etc. not to mention dozens of others besides! MrT. |
#28
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Vinyl making a comeback?
Mr.T wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message ... Well, if you are going to include products based on the same technology to get 80 years for for vinyl then the CD already has 30 years to its credit. And 28 even if you don't! Only half a century or so to go then :-) MrT. George Martin goes further and splits sound media history into four roughly equal 25 year periods with the last being CD. I guess you can cut it any way you like to make the point you want to make. Cheers Ian |
#29
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl? Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!! Revisionst history! There was no vinyl 80 years ago. I doubt that the chemical vinyl had even been invented. If it existed in some lab, there still weren't any production quantities of it. Vinyl as a production product was a product of the U.S. synthetic rubber program of WW2. There were large black disks with grooves in 1929, but they weren't vinyl, they weren't microgroove, they generally were not made or widely played electronically (electronics was in its infancy), and they weren't stereo. (I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same technology) Nope. They were a related, predecessor technology. There were many steps along the way. Vinyl mono ruled from about 1953 to 1958, and vinyl stereo ruled from 1958 to about 1988. So, give vinyl as we know it a 30 year run. |
#30
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... Ya know, I just love it when the techno-fascists start in on how anyone who prefers vinyl must be some kind of retrograde Luddite or some such. And they're not? :-) IMO, this "techno-fascist" thing is a bad rap. Heck, even I have a really pretty good vinyl player that I even just bought a new cartridge for. I admit it, I listen to more needle drops than live vinyl, but that's partially because I know that vinyl degrades every time you play it. I can't see being unecessarily harsh and mean to nixw working antiques that even I can be a little sentimental about. in addition to that, they see it as their mission to quarantine the world against a possible outbreak of regression to yesterday's technology. Nope, no fear of that happening. Agreed. the statement you are responding is an admission that we've do have Luddites around who still openly dream of a "...regression to yesterday's technology." They belittle anyone who prefers vinyl to CDs (or film to digital photography). Nope, only those who claim vinyl is "superior". Agreed. IMO opinion a person is entitled to "prefer" anything they like, so long as they don't make ridiculous claims to justify their preferences. No justification is even needed, yet most cannot accept their preference is based on anything other than technical superiority, despite all facts to the contrary. When was the last time some vinylista posted here that CDs can't possibly sound right because of the empty spaces between the samples? I think it was in the last year. But there's *nothing* inherent in the production and sale of music discs that similarly would preclude someone from being able to choose one format over another; Sure there is, the fact that selling music is a business. There is no business case for putting all music out in both LP and CD format. fact, vinyl is still being produced (albeit in very limited quantities), which in no way inconveniences CD users or constitutes a barrier to sales of other formats. So why the continued invective against those who like LPs? It's the nearly 30 years of invective targeting the CD that sets the stage. Indeed, and why the continual claims for "superiority" of vinyl? It's the same logic that makes some want to believe that their girlfriend is the prettiest girl in the world. IME it's always the vinyl devotees that even raise the issue. You mean, like this time? I'm quite willing to admit that vinyl is in no way the ideal format; I just happen to like it for a number of reasons. I'm not claiming it's the end-all and be-all of music reproduction formats. It's difficult to eliminate surface noise, and the recordings can physically degrade when played. But there are also problems with CDs, as you well know. The cover art is too small for failing eyesight? There are no known sonic problems with CDs - because they have no inherent sonic characteristics. They are demonstrably sonically transparent if that's how their producers want to produce them to be that way. I get the same bull**** from digital photography zealots. Yes, digital photography is now mainstream, it can't possibly be any good. Today I visited my favorite photo shop in Berkeley, Looking Glass Photo. They sell digital cameras, inkjet paper, and accessories. They also do a brisk business selling film cameras, film, paper, chemicals, enlargers, and other wet photographic stuff. Are they also Luddites? Here we go again, a belief that photography and audio recording are sufficiently similar to mix up this way. The big difference is that there are no visually transparent photographs. Show me a picture and it always looks like a picture. Play me a really good recording and it sounds exactly like the signal that came out of the mixing board or mic. Do you think they should just "get over it" and pitch all that horrible backwards stuff? We bought my daughter a Canon EOS Elan for her university graduation or there abouts, but by the time she had her PhD, she had bought herself a Digital Rebel. For her last birthday, her husband bought her a digital point-and-shoot because she had discovered that with digital, you don't need all of the overhead of even a nice SLR to get good pictures. My ca. 1970 FT is in good operating condition along with its set of telephoto, Macro, and Wide angle lenses, but we haven't touched it for over 10 years because we take all of our pictures with a SD 1000. Not as long as there is a market and money to be made! Ask Kodak about the future of silver-based photography in the mainstream. I haven't thrown out my film camera's or enlarger, but I certainly prefer digital in nearly every aspect, except trying to get proper B&W prints made from it. Yes, our enlarger, tanks and trays are still around as well. I spend most of my spare time producing digital videos when I'm not producing digital recordings. No politics, just what works best. |
#31
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/7/2009 5:29 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... But there's *nothing* inherent in the production and sale of music discs that similarly would preclude someone from being able to choose one format over another; Sure there is, the fact that selling music is a business. There is no business case for putting all music out in both LP and CD format. Just to address this small point, I can certainly remember when much music (not all, to be sure) came out in both LP and cassette formats (remember that?), and I'm pretty sure there was even a period where some was released in three formats (LP, cassette and CD). I won't even go into 8-track territory ... -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#32
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/7/2009 12:50 AM Mr.T spake thus:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message s.com... I meant *besides* CDs. So let me restate the question: excluding CDs (and WAV files ripped on a computer and the like), aren't the vast majority of sound files people listen to in the MP3 format? Nope, nothing like the 99% you quote! First you have to subtract most of the Apple format users (fairly big numbers there), then those who prefer WMA, then those who prefer high quality formats like Wave and FLAC, and then the other disk formats like DVDA, ATRAC etc. not to mention dozens of others besides! Well, I know there are lots of formats in use, no argument there. My question is how many people use these formats as opposed to MP3s in iPods and similar listening devices. Haven't got any statistics at hand, but it seems to me(TM) that when I'm out and about, the vast majority of folks I see listening to music are using something to listen to MP3s. So I conclude that this format is vastly more popular than any other. Do you really think that the examples you gave (like those who use other formats for higher quality) are more numerous than MP3s? Not necessarily challenging you, since I don't have statistical evidence one way or the other. Again, this is *excluding* CDs (and DVDs and other commercially available music discs). -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#33
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/7/2009 7:35 AM Dick Pierce spake thus:
Arny Krueger wrote: "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message [...] Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!! Revisionst history! Nothing beats revisionist history like made up history. There was no vinyl 80 years ago. Revisionist? I doubt that the chemical vinyl had even been invented. From a brief search: "Polyvinyl chloride or PVC was first created by the German chemist Eugen Baumann in 1872. Eugen Baumann never applied for a patent. "Polyvinyl chloride or PVC was never patented until 1913 when German, Friedrich Klatte invented a new method of the polymerization of vinyl chloride using sunlight." You're being cute. (Even if Arny was wrong about the age of the chemical vinyl.) One can take "vinyl" in the context of this thread to mean "sound recordings made of vinyl", which certainly did not exist much earlier than the 1950s. I think it's reasonable to assume that we're talking about such vinyl recordings, not recorded discs with single spiral grooves made from a variety of other materials (shellac, etc.). -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#34
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote ...
I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback. This based on anecdotal evidence: in two local (San Francisco Bay East Bay area) record shops I've visited recently, people working in both have told me that their vinyl sales are up--way up in one case. (Mostly used stuff, but some new LP releases.) As we know, CD sales are basically in the toilet. The younger generation seems to be getting most of its "music" (if that's what it can be called) via non-physical means, many (most?) of which are tinny and harsh-sounding, but since that's all they know, they seem to like it. But independent of this, vinyl sales have increased. Anyhow, it's gratifying to see what appears to be a return to an older, discarded analog recording medium. We'll see how much of a comeback it really is. I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that sits on a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the difference between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except that maybe a "dubplate" is home-cut vs. a commercial moulded vinyl disk. Most likely constant pitch, and must require a pretty beefy turntable to maintain speed while cutting, etc. Not clear that there was any kind of monitoring the groove, no microscope, etc. Although a microscope with a video camera would likely be pretty easy to do these days. They are sold as children's toys nowdays. If you're interested.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa9_h2CrNJU |
#35
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/7/2009 1:10 PM Richard Crowley spake thus:
I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that sits on a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the difference between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except that maybe a "dubplate" is home-cut vs. a commercial moulded vinyl disk. Most likely constant pitch, and must require a pretty beefy turntable to maintain speed while cutting, etc. Not clear that there was any kind of monitoring the groove, no microscope, etc. Although a microscope with a video camera would likely be pretty easy to do these days. They are sold as children's toys nowdays. If you're interested.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa9_h2CrNJU Intrestin' ... Probably won't watch that video right away, as I'm on dialup (yep, I'm a card-carrying Luddite!). But I did find these pages on dubplates: http://www.duophonic.de/index.php?vi...bplate_cutting (German mfgr.) http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Dubplate http://www.skratchworx.com/news3/comments.php?id=112 Apparently the discs can be either acetate or vinyl, with vinyl the preferred substance. -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#36
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl making a comeback?
On 9/7/2009 1:10 PM Richard Crowley spake thus:
I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that sits on a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the difference between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except that maybe a "dubplate" is home-cut vs. a commercial moulded vinyl disk. Is this a vinyl cutterhead? http://carverycuts.com/dubs/index.ph...9&Itemi d=147 Looks like there's a resistance heater, a vacuum tube to eat the shaving, and some kind of guide wire or something. And what's that little hook thingy dangling? Some kind of anti-resonance device? -- Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism |
#37
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote...
Richard Crowley spake thus: I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that sits on a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the difference between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except that maybe a "dubplate" is home-cut vs. a commercial moulded vinyl disk. Most likely constant pitch, and must require a pretty beefy turntable to maintain speed while cutting, etc. Not clear that there was any kind of monitoring the groove, no microscope, etc. Although a microscope with a video camera would likely be pretty easy to do these days. They are sold as children's toys nowdays. If you're interested.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa9_h2CrNJU Intrestin' ... Probably won't watch that video right away, as I'm on dialup (yep, I'm a card-carrying Luddite!). But I did find these pages on dubplates: http://www.duophonic.de/index.php?vi...bplate_cutting (German mfgr.) http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Dubplate http://www.skratchworx.com/news3/comments.php?id=112 Apparently the discs can be either acetate or vinyl, with vinyl the preferred substance. I saw another vintage film on YouTube showing making a wax blank by pouring hot wax from a tin measuring cup onto the spinning turntable. It is remarkably similar to the say we use "spin-on" methods today to coat silicon wafers with various chemicals and photoresist, etc. Except we don't need some guy wielding a hair-dryer to smooth out the surface (as shown in the movie. :-) |
#38
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!! Revisionst history! Nothing beats revisionist history like made up history. There was no vinyl 80 years ago. Revisionist? I doubt that the chemical vinyl had even been invented. From a brief search: "Polyvinyl chloride or PVC was first created by the German chemist Eugen Baumann in 1872. Eugen Baumann never applied for a patent. "Polyvinyl chloride or PVC was never patented until 1913 when German, Friedrich Klatte invented a new method of the polymerization of vinyl chloride using sunlight." "I doubted", but I doubted incorrectly. So what? The context of the topic was the use of PVC in recordings, which did not start in 1872 or even 1913. This listing of the above dates does not mention the fact that PVC was not economcally useful until the following event took place: On goes on to learn that practical PVC, including useful, widespread commercial applications, date from the B.F. Goodrich Company in 1926 "Date from" should note be confused with "widespread commercialization immediately started" As I said before, PVC use in commercial quantities started around the time of the Second World War. Until the end of the war, civilian uses did not explode. Further, is one gets out of the mode of taking the narrowest, most anally retentive view of a term, one might learn that the technology behind vinyl goes well back beyond "vinyl." That's what one might think if one read the phrase: They were a related, predecessor technology." Take a hierarchical view, gentle people: consider the physical layer: vinyl, shellac, wax. Now take the next layer up: the encoding, and you find that the encoding method has been around for well over 100 years, regardless of the physical media. "There were many steps long the way. Vinyl mono ruled from about 1953 to 1958, and vinyl stereo ruled from 1958 to about 1988. So, give vinyl as we know it a 30 year run." Confusing the two leads to silly, irrelevant claims about "revisionist history" and such. The context was clearly stated at the beginning of the post that I replied to: "Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years. Which was falsely corrected by the following statement: " Ignoring the previous 80 years of course." The official date of the invention of the phonograph was 1877, but that wasn't when the vinyl LP was invented. The time from 1877 was mentioned in the phrase: "There were many steps along the way". They weren't ignored. Somebody(s) read that and didn't perceive that it meant that there were many steps from 1877 to 1957. |
#39
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl making a comeback?
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com On 9/7/2009 1:10 PM Richard Crowley spake thus: I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that sits on a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the difference between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except that maybe a "dubplate" is home-cut vs. a commercial moulded vinyl disk. Is this a vinyl cutterhead? http://carverycuts.com/dubs/index.ph...9&Itemi d=147 Looks like there's a resistance heater, Resistance wire scramble-wound around the cutting stylus. a vacuum tube to eat the shaving, Relatively huge oval orifice behind the stylus. and some kind of guide wire or something. The power lead for the resistance wire which may be just more resistance wire. And what's that little hook thingy dangling? Looks like a vinyl shaving that escaped the vacuum and melted it onto the lead wire. Some kind of anti-resonance device? Unlikely. |
#40
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl making a comeback?
David Nebenzahl wrote:
One can take "vinyl" in the context of this thread to mean "sound recordings made of vinyl", which certainly did not exist much earlier than the 1950s. I seem to remember that there was some experimental use in the 1930s. I think it's reasonable to assume that we're talking about such vinyl recordings, not recorded discs with single spiral grooves made from a variety of other materials (shellac, etc.). But how do you know what the records you use are made from? Lots of 1940s and 1950s 78s are made of vinyl with fillers instead of shellac. The most obvious difference is that vinyl isn't soluble in alcohol, but 78s which are vinyl+filler feel and break much the same as the prewar shellac+filler discs. Peter -- |
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