[Arny Krueger]

"H Davis" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"H Davis" wrote in message


Truly small amounts of odd-order distortion are not
immediately audible, but eventually cause listener
fatigue.

That's an assertion with very little evidence to support
it.

I cannot cite a reference, but I have read technical
discussions of this and have observed it for myself.

Might you believe that your own observations possibly stopped well short of
the sort of science that denies your claim?

Might you believe that there are people who are not up-to-date in their
understanding of how human hearing works, and therefore say some of the
darnedest things?

Levels of distortion that are not immediately obvious do
have a cumulative effect on the listener that leads to
wanting to turn the music off.

That would be a straw man argument because I'm not talking about levels of
distortion that are or are not immediately obvious. I'm talking about two
things - the levels and kinds of distortion whose audibility is predictable
from a detailed understanding of how hearing (by the ears and as perceived
by the brain) works, and based on some of the most careful, sensitive
listening tests ever done.

This is generally due to such nonlinearities as
crossover distortion in the output stage.

Crossover distortion is due to bias failure, and when it
occurs it is not vanishlingly small.

Small amounts can be due to an incorrectly set output
stage bias trimmer, or even be inherent in the design.

All sorts of things *can* happen. However, if our goal is to discuss modern
technology as it exists today, then we are bound by what we see in the real
world. Crossover distortion is generally at the vanishing level in modern
power amps in good operating condition, even so-called "PA amps".

It need not be obviously visible on an oscilloscope to be
objectionable in long-term listening.

Again, you don't seem to understand the thoroughness and sensitivity of
investigations that have been happening for the past several decades, and
last week. For example, in the past 2 weeks I've done some careful
measurements of a very expensive ( $6,000), a moderate-priced but very
modern ( 1000 wpc @ 2 ohms, $500) and a cheap ( $200) but fairly
conventional power amps using measurement equipment with residuals that are
at least 100 dB down). One can see distortion that is 20-30 dB down on a
scope, in comparison.

There was no discernable crossover distortion in the technical tests any of
the amps I tested. I even tested a well-beaten PA amp that had a number of
clearly noticeable technical problems. probably due to abuse such as
possibly a number of output devices were not passing current. It's biggest
problem was inability to provide rated power in one channel, but neither
channel showed any crossover distortion.

[Arny Krueger]

"Stephen McElroy" wrote in
message

Another contribution to the decline of the High End might
be the endless discussion of twenty-year-old
controversies.

Right Stephen. The cable controversy was settled by science well over 20
years ago, but that doesn't keep high end true believers from continuing to
try to convince their fellow audiophiles that the earth is really tied into
a giant pretzel. Pictures from space of a round earth notwithstanding.

Of course, science is on their side - Einstein said that space is curved,
right? ;-)

[H Davis]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"H Davis" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"H Davis" wrote in message


Truly small amounts of odd-order distortion are not
immediately audible, but eventually cause listener
fatigue.

That's an assertion with very little evidence to support
it.

I cannot cite a reference, but I have read technical
discussions of this and have observed it for myself.

Might you believe that your own observations possibly stopped well short
of
the sort of science that denies your claim?

If there is documented research that invalidates the theory of
distortion-induced "listener fatigue," please post it here, or at least a
link to it. Otherwise, science DOES NOT deny this claim.

Might you believe that there are people who are not up-to-date in their
understanding of how human hearing works, and therefore say some of the
darnedest things?

Levels of distortion that are not immediately obvious do
have a cumulative effect on the listener that leads to
wanting to turn the music off.

That would be a straw man argument because I'm not talking about levels of
distortion that are or are not immediately obvious. I'm talking about two
things - the levels and kinds of distortion whose audibility is
predictable
from a detailed understanding of how hearing (by the ears and as perceived
by the brain) works, and based on some of the most careful, sensitive
listening tests ever done.

The hearing capabilities of the human ear and brain vary greatly among
individuals. If one person's hearing is 20 db down at 8 KHz, will a
distortion product at that frequency be as audible or objectionable to them
as to a person with unimpaired hearing? The impaired individual would I'm
sure be more tolerant of distortion products in the range above their cutoff
frequency.
In general, the listener fatigue phenomenon is common sense - who wants to
continue to hear distorted music?

This is generally due to such nonlinearities as
crossover distortion in the output stage.

Crossover distortion is due to bias failure, and when it
occurs it is not vanishlingly small.

Small amounts can be due to an incorrectly set output
stage bias trimmer, or even be inherent in the design.

All sorts of things *can* happen. However, if our goal is to discuss
modern
technology as it exists today, then we are bound by what we see in the
real
world. Crossover distortion is generally at the vanishing level in modern
power amps in good operating condition, even so-called "PA amps".

True.

It need not be obviously visible on an oscilloscope to be
objectionable in long-term listening.

Again, you don't seem to understand the thoroughness and sensitivity of
investigations that have been happening for the past several decades, and
last week. For example, in the past 2 weeks I've done some careful
measurements of a very expensive ( $6,000), a moderate-priced but very
modern ( 1000 wpc @ 2 ohms, $500) and a cheap ( $200) but fairly
conventional power amps using measurement equipment with residuals that
are
at least 100 dB down). One can see distortion that is 20-30 dB down on a
scope, in comparison.

There was no discernable crossover distortion in the technical tests any
of
the amps I tested. I even tested a well-beaten PA amp that had a number of
clearly noticeable technical problems. probably due to abuse such as
possibly a number of output devices were not passing current. It's biggest
problem was inability to provide rated power in one channel, but neither
channel showed any crossover distortion.

Yes, crossover distortion in properly designed equipment should pose no
problem. Have you any recently discovered information on transient
intermodulation distortion?

[Arny Krueger]

"H Davis" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"H Davis" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"H Davis" wrote in message


Truly small amounts of odd-order distortion are not
immediately audible, but eventually cause listener
fatigue.

That's an assertion with very little evidence to
support it.

I cannot cite a reference, but I have read technical
discussions of this and have observed it for myself.

Might you believe that your own observations possibly
stopped well short of
the sort of science that denies your claim?

If there is documented research that invalidates the
theory of distortion-induced "listener fatigue," please
post it here, or at least a link to it. Otherwise,
science DOES NOT deny this claim.

Listener fatigue is your theory, its up to you to support it.

Show us the science!


Might you believe that there are people who are not
up-to-date in their understanding of how human hearing
works, and therefore say some of the darnedest things?

Levels of distortion that are not immediately obvious do
have a cumulative effect on the listener that leads to
wanting to turn the music off.

That would be a straw man argument because I'm not
talking about levels of distortion that are or are not
immediately obvious. I'm talking about two things - the
levels and kinds of distortion whose audibility is
predictable
from a detailed understanding of how hearing (by the
ears and as perceived by the brain) works, and based on
some of the most careful, sensitive listening tests ever
done.

The hearing capabilities of the human ear and brain vary
greatly among individuals.

The science says that hearing only goes so far. There are variations, but
they are explainable by hearing damage and other disabilities.

If one person's hearing is 20
db down at 8 KHz, will a distortion product at that
frequency be as audible or objectionable to them as to a
person with unimpaired hearing? The impaired individual
would I'm sure be more tolerant of distortion products in
the range above their cutoff frequency.
In general, the listener fatigue phenomenon is common
sense - who wants to continue to hear distorted music?

Straw man argument, people who test these sorts of things know how to detect
people with hearing damage and don't base their results on them.

Yes, crossover distortion in properly designed equipment
should pose no problem. Have you any recently discovered
information on transient intermodulation distortion?

TIM has long been debunked and is well-known to *not* be a of new or unusual
kind of distortion.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 31, 8:46*am, Dick Pierce wrote:

Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of
experience" because it really does align the electrons?
And because it alledgedly does, does he deserve the
outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes
to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely,
happens to that "quality of experience" when it's revealed
that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous? Is it now
all about the price being the reason for the "quality of
experience," because when the emperor is found to be naked,
we find that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary
Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio Shack
clock? What happens to the "quality of experience? when
we see the emperor in the altogether?

That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to affect one's
perception even after one fails to hear differences under bias
controlled conditions? My understanding is that often yes, people
continue to percieve improvements that are purely bias related
perceptions. That would be a continued improvement in the quality of
experience.


And the same is true of badly designed CD players with
'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks
and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from
the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law
because they can't even meet their own published
specifications? How does the obsene pursuit of insane
profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else
besides the merchant and manufacturer?

How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are "overpriced?"
Have you actually done the math? Have you considered the costs of
materials and costs of construction along with the costs of shipping
and duties? Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and
which ones are in violation fo the law? I'd like to see some facts to
support your assertions here. I think if you really did your homework
on this one you would find you are way off base.


And what if you were told that the wood cook stove
you were about to plunk $250,000 for was inherently
better because it was forged under a certain alignment
of stars in the galactic center?

That would not mean anything to me. It might mean something to someone
else. At least it is a claim we can all judge and valuate for
ourselves. It's only dishonest if it is a willful misrepresentation.


What would your "quality of experience" be if you had
paid thousands for that outboard DAC on the premise
that "it was so transparent and revealing" that it could
"clearly reveal the difference in sound between cables"
only to discover that, in fact, it suffered from grossly
incompetent mixed signal design and circuit board layout
and that, in fact, it was a jitter cesspool?

If it made for a better listening experience I would favor it. If not
then I wouldn't.

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce
wrote:

Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of
experience" because it really does align the electrons?
And because it allegedly does, does he deserve the
outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes
to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely,
happens to that "quality of experience" when it's
revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous?
Is it now all about the price being the reason for the
"quality of experience," because when the emperor is
found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no
different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it
IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the
"quality of experience? when
we see the emperor in the altogether?

That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to
affect one's perception even after one fails to hear
differences under bias controlled conditions?

Depends on the nature of the bias.

My understanding is that often yes, people continue to
perceive improvements that are purely bias related
perceptions.

Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here.

That would be a continued improvement in the
quality of experience.

The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive
experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an
improvement.

If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually
improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all
that will improve things.


And the same is true of badly designed CD players with
'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks
and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from
the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law
because they can't even meet their own published
specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane
profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else
besides the merchant and manufacturer?

How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are
"overpriced?"

Dollars per watt of clean power. Often the ratio is near-infinite because
these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be
clean by modern standards.

I've you actually done the math? Have you
considered the costs of materials and costs of
construction along with the costs of shipping and duties?

Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least
economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value
received.


Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and
which ones are in violation of the law?

The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Sep 2, 5:26*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message







On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce
wrote:
Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of
experience" because it really does align the electrons?
And because it allegedly does, does he deserve the
outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes
to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely,
happens to that "quality of experience" when it's
revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous?
Is it now all about the price being the reason for the
"quality of experience," because when the emperor is
found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no
different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it
IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the
"quality of experience? when
we see the emperor in the altogether?
That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to
affect one's perception even after one fails to hear
differences under bias controlled conditions?

Depends on the nature of the bias.

How so? Do you have some real meaningful information on the subject?
Or should we just ask JJ?


My understanding is that often yes, people continue to
perceive improvements that are purely bias related
perceptions.

Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here.



No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not meaningless.



*That would be a continued improvement in the
quality of experience.

The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive
experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an
improvement.

That's news to me. Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here?
Not that it matters. Improved quality of experience is improved
quality of experience regardless of the underlying mechanisms. Whether
or not this is a common or rare phenomenon matters not.



If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually
improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all
that will improve things.

Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless.



And the same is true of badly designed CD players with
'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks
and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from
the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law
because they can't even meet their own published
specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane
profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else
besides the merchant and manufacturer?
How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are
"overpriced?"

Dollars per watt of clean power.


What does that have to do with the real world cost of parts, labor,
shipping and duties? Fair pricing is to a large degree a reflection of
factors such as actual costs of making the product. If you disagree I
suggest you stay out of any sort of business that involves making and
selling something.


Often the ratio is near-infinite because
these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be
clean by modern standards.


Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers not powerline
conditioners.



I've you actually done the math? Have you
considered the costs of materials and costs of
construction along with the costs of shipping and duties?

Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least
economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value
received.

*Value* is largely subjective. But it is hard to call any product
grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair reflection of the costs
that go into it. One may have the personal opinion that it is not a
good *value* but that is quite different than calling something
grotesquely overpriced.



Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and
which ones are in violation of the law?

The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals


Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of actual real
world product here.

[Sonnova]

On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 15:03:33 -0700, Scott wrote
(in article ):

On Sep 2, 5:26*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message







On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce
wrote:
Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of
experience" because it really does align the electrons?
And because it allegedly does, does he deserve the
outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes
to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely,
happens to that "quality of experience" when it's
revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous?
Is it now all about the price being the reason for the
"quality of experience," because when the emperor is
found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no
different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it
IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the
"quality of experience? when
we see the emperor in the altogether?
That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to
affect one's perception even after one fails to hear
differences under bias controlled conditions?

Depends on the nature of the bias.

How so? Do you have some real meaningful information on the subject?
Or should we just ask JJ?


My understanding is that often yes, people continue to
perceive improvements that are purely bias related
perceptions.

Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here.



No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not meaningless.



*That would be a continued improvement in the
quality of experience.

The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive
experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an
improvement.

That's news to me. Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here?
Not that it matters. Improved quality of experience is improved
quality of experience regardless of the underlying mechanisms. Whether
or not this is a common or rare phenomenon matters not.



If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually
improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all
that will improve things.

Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless.



And the same is true of badly designed CD players with
'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks
and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from
the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law
because they can't even meet their own published
specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane
profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else
besides the merchant and manufacturer?
How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are
"overpriced?"

Dollars per watt of clean power.


What does that have to do with the real world cost of parts, labor,
shipping and duties? Fair pricing is to a large degree a reflection of
factors such as actual costs of making the product. If you disagree I
suggest you stay out of any sort of business that involves making and
selling something.


Often the ratio is near-infinite because
these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be
clean by modern standards.


Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers not powerline
conditioners.



I've you actually done the math? Have you
considered the costs of materials and costs of
construction along with the costs of shipping and duties?

Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least
economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value
received.

*Value* is largely subjective. But it is hard to call any product
grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair reflection of the costs
that go into it. One may have the personal opinion that it is not a
good *value* but that is quite different than calling something
grotesquely overpriced.



Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and
which ones are in violation of the law?

The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals


Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of actual real
world product here.


Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects, but he is knowledgeable and a lot
of what he says here is correct. There are an awful lot of components on the
market, the price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it ought to
be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as the cost of actually doing
business. For instance, the aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp
from Leben (which started this thread) should be about a US$800 unit, based
on what it is, but it's priced at US$3500. When you consider that for about
US$250 more one can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from VTL,
or, if one prefers an integrated like the Leben, for around $3000, one can
get the gorgeously made and great sounding and fabulous looking 100
Watt/Channel Cayin A-100T from China. Either of these two tube amps come in
at a price much more in keeping with their actual cost to produce than does
the Leben. I'm only mentioning these two units to compare oranges to oranges,
that is to say, tubes to tubes. Now if we go solid state, there are many
current amps that represent much better value, ranging from the oft-mentioned
Behringer as well as Crown, who has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel
selling from about $299 all the way to about $2000. This is clean, reliable
power. but companies like Peavy, and Samson et al also sell robust and clean
amps for nowhere near the kind of money that companies like Leben and Luxman
want for their flea-powerd options. Things get even more ridiculous when you
get into SETs. Now I'm not knocking any of these products. What I am saying
is that there is simply no practical economic reason for these low-powered
amps to cost as much as they do.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Sep 2, 5:07*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 15:03:33 -0700, Scott wrote
(in article ):





On Sep 2, 5:26*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce
wrote:
Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of
experience" because it really does align the electrons?
And because it allegedly does, does he deserve the
outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes
to the "quality of the experience?" And what, precisely,
happens to that "quality of experience" when it's
revealed that, in fact, his claim is completely vacuous?
Is it now all about the price being the reason for the
"quality of experience," because when the emperor is
found to be naked, we find that Tice's clock is no
different from an ordinary Radio Shack clock, indeed it
IS an ordinary Radio Shack clock? What happens to the
"quality of experience? when
we see the emperor in the altogether?
That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to
affect one's perception even after one fails to hear
differences under bias controlled conditions?

Depends on the nature of the bias.

How so? Do you have some real meaningful information on the subject?
Or should we just ask JJ?

My understanding is that often yes, people continue to
perceive improvements that are purely bias related
perceptions.

Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here.

No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not meaningless.

*That would be a continued improvement in the
quality of experience.

The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is this massive
experience of audiophiles, where almost any change is perceived as an
improvement.

That's news to me. Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here?
Not that it matters. Improved quality of experience is improved
quality of experience regardless of the underlying mechanisms. Whether
or not this is a common or rare phenomenon matters not.

If you actually work with sound, you find that most changes don't actually
improve things. In some cases there are no changes that are possible at all
that will improve things.

Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless.

And the same is true of badly designed CD players with
'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks
and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from
the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law
because they can't even meet their own published
specifications? How does the obscene pursuit of insane
profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else
besides the merchant and manufacturer?
How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are
"overpriced?"

Dollars per watt of clean power.

What does that have to do with the real world cost of parts, labor,
shipping and duties? Fair pricing is to a large degree a reflection of
factors such as actual costs of making the product. If you disagree I
suggest you stay out of any sort of business that involves making and
selling something.

Often the ratio is near-infinite because
these amps really don't produce any power that would be considered to be
clean by modern standards.

Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers not powerline
conditioners.

I've you actually done the math? Have you
considered the costs of materials and costs of
construction along with the costs of shipping and duties?

Just because someone chooses to build and sell amplifiers the least
economical possible way, doesn't mean that their costs relate to value
received.

*Value* is largely subjective. But it is hard to call any product
grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair reflection of the costs
that go into it. One may have the personal opinion that it is not a
good *value* but that is quite different than calling something
grotesquely overpriced.

Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and
which ones are in violation of the law?

The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that lack UL approvals

Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of actual real
world product here.

Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects, but he is knowledgeable and a lot
of what he says here is correct. There are an awful lot of components on the
market, the price of which is grossly out of proportion to what *it ought to
be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as the cost of actually doing
business. For instance, the aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp
from Leben (which started this thread) should be about a US$800 unit, based
on what it is, but it's priced at US$3500. When you consider that for about
US$250 more one can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from VTL,
or, if one prefers an integrated like the Leben, for around $3000, one can
get the gorgeously made and great sounding and fabulous looking 100
Watt/Channel Cayin A-100T from China. Either of these two tube amps come in
at a price much more in keeping with their actual cost to produce than does
the Leben. I'm only mentioning these two units to compare oranges to oranges,
that is to say, tubes to tubes. Now if we go solid state, there are many
current amps that represent much better value, ranging from the oft-mentioned
Behringer as well as Crown, who has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel
selling from about $299 all the way to about $2000. This is clean, reliable
power. but companies like Peavy, and Samson et al also sell robust and clean
amps for nowhere near the kind of money that companies like Leben and Luxman
want for their flea-powerd options. Things get even more ridiculous when you
get into SETs. Now I'm not knocking any of these products. What I am saying
is that there is simply no practical economic reason for these low-powered
amps to cost as much as they do. *- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't know much about the Leben but I do know a little about two of
the most popular whipping posts Wavac and Audio Note. I'm not making
any sort of comment on their value but there is no question that given
their materials and labor along with shipping and duties the price has
to be very high. It's up to the consumer to decide if they are worth
it. but seriously, we are talking about multiple hand wound solid
silver transformers, solid machined aluminum alloy chasis, some fairly
expensive tubes, etc etc. I'll tell you what. If anyone can build me
an exact replica of a Wavac 833 for pennies on the dollar I may place
an order. I have no doubt the Chinese amps made with 10 cent a day
labor are considerably cheaper. but that aint oranges and oranges.
They are not built anywhere near the way the Wavac amps are built. Try
shipping two hundred pounds of anything from Japan to the U.S. then
consider that you have brokers, and distributers taking their cut
before the product ever makes it to the dealer. Hand built artisan
products simply can't be done cheap, especially when they are imports
and weigh half a ton.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sonnova" wrote in message


Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects,

As if that were something that only affects me.

but he is
knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct.
There are an awful lot of components on the market, the
price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it
ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as
the cost of actually doing business.


For instance, the
aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from
Leben (which started this thread) should be about a
US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at
US$3500.

I direct you to eBay and the "YAQIN MC-10L Push-Pull Integrated Stereo Tube
Amplifier"

More than 15wpc, less than $500.

Or:

"YAQIN MC-100B PushPull Stereo Integrated Tube Amplifier", less than $1,000
and probably over 50 wpc.

These seem like reasonable values for the probable cost of parts.

When you consider that for about US$250 more one
can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from
VTL

The VTL ST-85 seems to be a fairly credible 30-45 WPC tubed amp that seems
to sell for under $1500. There would appear to be significant margins in
that product, but its still a lot more bang for the buck than the Leben.

Now if we go solid state, there are many
current amps that represent much better value, ranging
from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who
has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling
from about $299 all the way to about $2000.

I've recently tested Behringer's smallest power amp that a consumer might
be interested in - the A500. Street price is about $200, and actual 8 ohm
power output @ 1 KHz at clipping is about 120 wpc. Crown's Xti 2000 can be
had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @ 1KHz @ 2 ohms and
about half that at 8 ohms.

The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes a full user
programmable (via USB-connected GUI) DSP-based amplifier management system
including 2 stages of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers
at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay. Curiously enough, there
are three Xti models with an approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that
are all the same size and weight.

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message

On Sep 2, 5:26 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message







On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce
wrote:
Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of
experience" because it really does align the electrons?
And because it allegedly does, he deserve the
outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes
to the "quality of the experience?" And what,
precisely, happens to that "quality of experience"
when it's revealed that, in fact, his claim is
completely vacuous? Is it now all about the price
being the reason for the "quality of experience,"
because when the emperor is found to be naked, we find
that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary
Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio
Shack clock? What happens to the "quality of
experience? when
we see the emperor in the altogether?

That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to
affect one's perception even after one fails to hear
differences under bias controlled conditions?

Depends on the nature of the bias.

How so?

Due to the vague nature of the question, its hard to answer.


Do you have some real meaningful information on
the subject?

I need a relevant, meaningful question to answer.

Or should we just ask JJ?

I think JJ swore off of Usenet. I'm in touch with him regularly, but he's
pretty busy these days.

My understanding is that often yes, people continue to
perceive improvements that are purely bias related
perceptions.

Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here.

No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not
meaningless.

There you go.

That would be a continued improvement in the
quality of experience.

The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is
this massive experience of audiophiles, where almost any
change is perceived as an improvement.

That's news to me.

It's up to you to inform yourself.

Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here?

Yes.

Not that it matters.

Begging the question, why bother to answer your posts?

Improved quality of
experience is improved quality of experience regardless
of the underlying mechanisms.

Ah yes, the solipsist's defense - "It's better because I say it is".

Whether or not this is a
common or rare phenomenon matters not.

Sure it does.

If you actually work with sound, you find that most
changes don't actually improve things. In some cases
there are no changes that are possible at all that will
improve things.

Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless.


Again, begging the question, why bother to answer your posts?

And the same is true of badly designed CD players with
'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and
bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced
amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in
violation of the law because they can't even meet
their own published specifications? How does the
obscene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of
experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and
manufacturer?

How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are
"overpriced?"

Dollars per watt of clean power.

What does that have to do with the real world cost of
parts, labor, shipping and duties?

Asked and answered, just below.

Fair pricing is to a
large degree a reflection of factors such as actual costs
of making the product.

In most of the real world, its all about costs and benefits. Benefits
matter. Costs are usually subordinate to benefits.

If you disagree I suggest you stay
out of any sort of business that involves making and
selling something.

I've personally been in the business of making and selling something for
over 20 years. I can't sell less benefits for more money.


Often the ratio is near-infinite because
these amps really don't produce any power that would be
considered to be clean by modern standards.

Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers
not powerline conditioners.

?????????????/

I've you actually done the math? Have you
considered the costs of materials and costs of
construction along with the costs of shipping and
duties?

Just because someone chooses to build and sell
amplifiers the least economical possible way, doesn't
mean that their costs relate to value received.

*Value* is largely subjective.

To a point.

But it is hard to call any
product grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair
reflection of the costs that go into it.

No, it's very easy. The phrase "solid gold toilet brush" comes to mind. Not
much of a market for them.

One may have the
personal opinion that it is not a good *value* but that
is quite different than calling something grotesquely
overpriced.

I think it may be fair to note that some high end audio gear is like a
"solid gold toilet brush"

Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and
which ones are in violation of the law?

The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that
lack UL approvals

Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of
actual real world product here.

Good luck on doing your own research. First, you might want to familiarize
yourself as to what the FTC rules for consumer power amplifiers are...

[Sonnova]

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:14:22 -0700, Scott wrote
(in article ):

[quoted text deleted -- deb]

I don't know much about the Leben but I do know a little about two of
the most popular whipping posts Wavac and Audio Note. I'm not making
any sort of comment on their value but there is no question that given
their materials and labor along with shipping and duties the price has
to be very high. It's up to the consumer to decide if they are worth
it. but seriously, we are talking about multiple hand wound solid
silver transformers, solid machined aluminum alloy chasis, some fairly
expensive tubes, etc etc. I'll tell you what. If anyone can build me
an exact replica of a Wavac 833 for pennies on the dollar I may place
an order. I have no doubt the Chinese amps made with 10 cent a day
labor are considerably cheaper. but that aint oranges and oranges.
They are not built anywhere near the way the Wavac amps are built. Try
shipping two hundred pounds of anything from Japan to the U.S. then
consider that you have brokers, and distributers taking their cut
before the product ever makes it to the dealer. Hand built artisan
products simply can't be done cheap, especially when they are imports
and weigh half a ton.


Well, yes, the Wavac and Audio Note amps are a special case. I've never had a
Wavac to play with, but I have had a pair of Audio Note amps for a weekend.
They are beautifully built, and as you say the transformers are wound with
silver wire as is all the point-to-point wiring silver. It uses oil-filled
capacitors and the tubes are expensive. But other than the widely known fact
that silver is a better conductor of electricity than is copper, no one has
ever shown me any PRACTICAL advantage to a transformer wound with silver
instead of copper wire! And making chassis out of a solid billet of alumimum
may be aesthetically impressive, but what does it add to the performance of
the amp? There are places where machining things out of solid billets of
metal yields an advantage (like when Ferrari, for instance, machines a
crankshaft from a solid billet of very hard steel, it yields a stronger crank
than one which is cast into a crankshaft shape and then machined, which is
the normal practice), but there is no such advantage to machining a chassis
for an amplifier that way. It's like taking an old Heathkit Williamson
amplifier and putting a solid gold faceplate on it. That will certainly make
the amp very expensive both to produce and to buy, but it adds no actual
VALUE to the Heathkit as an AMPLIFIER. And that's my point.

[Sonnova]

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:15:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message


Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects,

As if that were something that only affects me.

Well of course it doesn't ONLY affect you. I didn't mean to infer that it
does. We all have our biases and some aren't really rational. But it helps to
keep these biases in mind when reading other posters' (they always come out
over time in a regular's posts) opinions or when taking advice from them.

but he is
knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct.
There are an awful lot of components on the market, the
price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it
ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as
the cost of actually doing business.


For instance, the
aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from
Leben (which started this thread) should be about a
US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at
US$3500.

I direct you to eBay and the "YAQIN MC-10L Push-Pull Integrated Stereo Tube
Amplifier"

More than 15wpc, less than $500.

Or:

"YAQIN MC-100B PushPull Stereo Integrated Tube Amplifier", less than $1,000
and probably over 50 wpc.

These seem like reasonable values for the probable cost of parts.

Very reasonable. In fact, if as advertised, they are bargains. Amps like
either of them - in the mid sixties would have cost $200 and $300
respectively and if we use the same formula I did with the Leben vs an Eico
with similar topology, of 12X (the difference between what a dollar is worth
now compared to then) these amps should cost $2400 and $3600 respectively.
Their actual selling princes of $419 and $649 simply goes to show you what
the US markup is on gear made in China. I bet the guy who imports this Cayin
stuff is making 10X profit on it!

When you consider that for about US$250 more one
can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from
VTL

The VTL ST-85 seems to be a fairly credible 30-45 WPC tubed amp that seems
to sell for under $1500. There would appear to be significant margins in
that product, but its still a lot more bang for the buck than the Leben.

Now if we go solid state, there are many
current amps that represent much better value, ranging
from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who
has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling
from about $299 all the way to about $2000.

I've recently tested Behringer's smallest power amp that a consumer might
be interested in - the A500. Street price is about $200, and actual 8 ohm
power output @ 1 KHz at clipping is about 120 wpc.

I use one of those myself in the summer and usually switch back to the VTL
140's when the weather cools (would you want TWELVE 807's running in your
living room on a summer day?). The Behringer sounds very good and certainly
has enough power. It seems well designed physically, anyway, as it barely
gets warm - even on fairly hot days. BUT, I understand that the quality
contol on Behringer amps is atrocious. I had to go through two of them before
I found one that worked correctly. The first one buzzed through the speakers
and the second one had a great deal of distortion on the right channel if one
cranked it above a whisper. Behringer, I must say, took care of me right
away, dispatching replacements to me overnight. The one I ended up with is
fine with no problems and I'm on my third summer with it.

Crown's Xti 2000 can be
had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @ 1KHz @ 2 ohms and
about half that at 8 ohms.

The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes a full user
programmable (via USB-connected GUI) DSP-based amplifier management system
including 2 stages of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers
at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay. Curiously enough, there
are three Xti models with an approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that
are all the same size and weight.

I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I often recommend them
to audiophile friends in the market for a new solid-state amp. Steering them
away from audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to avoid paying
for the audiophile hype and "bling".

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message


I don't know much about the Leben

Which curiously enough is the topic of most of the discussion here.

but I do know a little
about two of the most popular whipping posts Wavac and
Audio Note.

Note the hidden change of topic.

I'm not making any sort of comment on their value

So your claim that value-wise they are whipping posts has nothing to do with
value?

but there is no question that given their materials
and labor along with shipping and duties the price has to
be very high.

Duties?

Labor?

Isn't it a level playing field - people can build amps wherever they want to
and ship them wherever they need to?

It's up to the consumer to decide if they
are worth it.

A large number of consumers have made their decisions and they are staying
away in droves.

But seriously, we are talking about
multiple hand wound solid silver transformers,

Which have no known sonic advantages. Since the goal of the Wavac seems to
be to get the price as high as possible, why not gold windings?

solid machined aluminum alloy chasis,

Again, no known sonic advantages - just an appearance thing.

some fairly expensive tubes, etc etc.

Tube prices don't seem to be bad when you're talking about six-figure price
tags.

I'll tell you what. If anyone can build
me an exact replica of a Wavac 833 for pennies on the
dollar I may place an order.

I don't see any promise to do anything, just words. If I were to promise you
to build a Wavac 833 based on that statement, I'd be a fool!

I have no doubt the Chinese
amps made with 10 cent a day labor are considerably
cheaper.

No reliable evidence that the Chinese building competitive amps are getting
10 cents a day. Reality is that they are getting order(s) of magnitude more
pay than you have claimed.

but that aint oranges and oranges. They are not
built anywhere near the way the Wavac amps are built.

Wavac amps are overbuilt, if sound quality is of the essence.

Try
shipping two hundred pounds of anything from Japan

Not cheap, but no justification for a six-figure price tag in just that.

to the U.S. then consider that you have brokers,

Who charge less if the equipment costs less.

and distributers taking their cut

Probably at exhorbitant rates.


before the product ever makes it to the dealer.

Who no doubt gets an exhorbitant markup as well.


Hand built artisan products
simply can't be done cheap,

I routinely pay less than $5 a loaf for artisan bread...


especially when they are imports

Depending on country of origin there may be no duties at all.

and weigh half a ton.

I thought the Wavac weighed about 1/20th of a ton. Are you really off by a
factor of 10 from even your earlier statement?

[Arny Krueger]

"Sonnova" wrote in message

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:15:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message


Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects,

As if that were something that only affects me.

Well of course it doesn't ONLY affect you. I didn't mean
to infer that it does. We all have our biases and some
aren't really rational. But it helps to keep these biases
in mind when reading other posters' (they always come out
over time in a regular's posts) opinions or when taking
advice from them.

There's a complete lack of modern perspective here. Tubes and Vinyl are a
bias away from the contemporary order of things. They are also the opposite
of the true meaning of High Fidelity.

but he is
knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct.
There are an awful lot of components on the market, the
price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it
ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as
the cost of actually doing business.


For instance, the
aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from
Leben (which started this thread) should be about a
US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at
US$3500.

I direct you to eBay and the "YAQIN MC-10L Push-Pull
Integrated Stereo Tube Amplifier"

More than 15wpc, less than $500.

Or:

"YAQIN MC-100B PushPull Stereo Integrated Tube
Amplifier", less than $1,000 and probably over 50 wpc.

These seem like reasonable values for the probable cost
of parts.

Very reasonable. In fact, if as advertised, they are
bargains. Amps like either of them - in the mid sixties
would have cost $200 and $300 respectively


In the day the Dyna Stereo 70 used P-P EL34s and ran about $100-129. I seem
to recall the kit was about $80.

and if we use
the same formula I did with the Leben vs an Eico with
similar topology, of 12X (the difference between what a
dollar is worth now compared to then) these amps should
cost $2400 and $3600 respectively.

That would put a Dyna 70 at about $1200-1500 inflated dollars. Probably not
too far off.

Their actual selling
princes of $419 and $649 simply goes to show you what the
US markup is on gear made in China. I bet the guy who
imports this Cayin stuff is making 10X profit on it!

Could be. These days just about everything is assembled in China, no matter
where the alleged manufacturer's headquarters are.

When you consider that for about US$250 more one
can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from
VTL

The VTL ST-85 seems to be a fairly credible 30-45 WPC
tubed amp that seems to sell for under $1500. There
would appear to be significant margins in that product,
but its still a lot more bang for the buck than the
Leben.

Now if we go solid state, there are many
current amps that represent much better value, ranging
from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who
has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling
from about $299 all the way to about $2000.

I've recently tested Behringer's smallest power amp
that a consumer might be interested in - the A500.
Street price is about $200, and actual 8 ohm power
output @ 1 KHz at clipping is about 120 wpc.

I use one of those myself in the summer and usually
switch back to the VTL 140's when the weather cools
(would you want TWELVE 807's running in your living room
on a summer day?). The Behringer sounds very good and
certainly has enough power. It seems well designed
physically, anyway, as it barely gets warm - even on
fairly hot days.


BUT, I understand that the quality
contol on Behringer amps is atrocious.

I have a few and I have several friends who have a number of them. No
problems.

I had to go
through two of them before I found one that worked
correctly.

Could be that you were dealing with one of those dealers who cycles his
customer returns through several customers before he gets down to business
and sends it back for seviceing.

The first one buzzed through the speakers and
the second one had a great deal of distortion on the
right channel if one cranked it above a whisper.
Behringer, I must say, took care of me right away,
dispatching replacements to me overnight. The one I ended
up with is fine with no problems and I'm on my third
summer with it.

These bad amps came directly from Behringer?

Crown's Xti 2000 can be
had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @
1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms.

The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes
a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI)
DSP-based amplifier management system including 2 stages
of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers
at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay.
Curiously enough, there are three Xti models with an
approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that are all
the same size and weight.

I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I
often recommend them to audiophile friends in the market
for a new solid-state amp. Steering them away from
audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to
avoid paying for the audiophile hype and "bling".

Right. The Crowns have fans, but if you don't really push them, the fans
barely turn over and the amps run cool. I had to put mine under high power
testing to get the fans to run perceptibly.

[Sonnova]

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:26:22 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:15:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message


Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects,

As if that were something that only affects me.

Well of course it doesn't ONLY affect you. I didn't mean
to infer that it does. We all have our biases and some
aren't really rational. But it helps to keep these biases
in mind when reading other posters' (they always come out
over time in a regular's posts) opinions or when taking
advice from them.

There's a complete lack of modern perspective here. Tubes and Vinyl are a
bias away from the contemporary order of things. They are also the opposite
of the true meaning of High Fidelity.

And that's your bias. Mine is that tube amps are another way of creating the
power required to drive speakers and are categorically speaking, neither good
nor bad. I.E. there are good ones and there are not so good ones. Vinyl is
another music source and again some are very, very good, and some are awful.
The best sound more like real music than the best digital, but the average
digital is better than MOST vinyl.

but he is
knowledgeable and a lot of what he says here is correct.
There are an awful lot of components on the market, the
price of which is grossly out of proportion to what it
ought to be, given the cost of manufacture, as well as
the cost of actually doing business.


For instance, the
aforementioned 15-watt/channel Japanese tube amp from
Leben (which started this thread) should be about a
US$800 unit, based on what it is, but it's priced at
US$3500.

I direct you to eBay and the "YAQIN MC-10L Push-Pull
Integrated Stereo Tube Amplifier"

More than 15wpc, less than $500.

Or:

"YAQIN MC-100B PushPull Stereo Integrated Tube
Amplifier", less than $1,000 and probably over 50 wpc.

These seem like reasonable values for the probable cost
of parts.

Very reasonable. In fact, if as advertised, they are
bargains. Amps like either of them - in the mid sixties
would have cost $200 and $300 respectively


In the day the Dyna Stereo 70 used P-P EL34s and ran about $100-129. I seem
to recall the kit was about $80.

Yes, but it was only 35 Watts/channel while the larger of these amplifiers is
quite a bit bigger - say, on par with a pair of Dyna MKII or MKIIIs?

and if we use
the same formula I did with the Leben vs an Eico with
similar topology, of 12X (the difference between what a
dollar is worth now compared to then) these amps should
cost $2400 and $3600 respectively.

That would put a Dyna 70 at about $1200-1500 inflated dollars. Probably not
too far off.

That's correct. When some company bought the Dyna name back in the mid '90's,
they reissued the the Stereo 70 at right about $1100.

Their actual selling
princes of $419 and $649 simply goes to show you what the
US markup is on gear made in China. I bet the guy who
imports this Cayin stuff is making 10X profit on it!

Could be. These days just about everything is assembled in China, no matter
where the alleged manufacturer's headquarters are.

True. One thing about the Yaqin amps you referenced is that their Canadian
importer QC's each, on premises, before they are sent out to customers. In my
estimation, Behringer should do the same. It would cost them less in the long
run, I believe.

When you consider that for about US$250 more one
can buy a 150 Watt/channel stereo amp, the ST-150 from
VTL

The VTL ST-85 seems to be a fairly credible 30-45 WPC
tubed amp that seems to sell for under $1500. There
would appear to be significant margins in that product,
but its still a lot more bang for the buck than the
Leben.

Now if we go solid state, there are many
current amps that represent much better value, ranging
from the oft-mentioned Behringer as well as Crown, who
has amps from about 200 to 1200 Watts/channel selling
from about $299 all the way to about $2000.

I've recently tested Behringer's smallest power amp
that a consumer might be interested in - the A500.
Street price is about $200, and actual 8 ohm power
output @ 1 KHz at clipping is about 120 wpc.

I use one of those myself in the summer and usually
switch back to the VTL 140's when the weather cools
(would you want TWELVE 807's running in your living room
on a summer day?). The Behringer sounds very good and
certainly has enough power. It seems well designed
physically, anyway, as it barely gets warm - even on
fairly hot days.


BUT, I understand that the quality
contol on Behringer amps is atrocious.

I have a few and I have several friends who have a number of them. No
problems.

I had to go
through two of them before I found one that worked
correctly.

Could be that you were dealing with one of those dealers who cycles his
customer returns through several customers before he gets down to business
and sends it back for seviceing.

These came directly from Behringer. No middle man.

The first one buzzed through the speakers and
the second one had a great deal of distortion on the
right channel if one cranked it above a whisper.
Behringer, I must say, took care of me right away,
dispatching replacements to me overnight. The one I ended
up with is fine with no problems and I'm on my third
summer with it.

These bad amps came directly from Behringer?

Yep.

Crown's Xti 2000 can be
had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @
1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms.

The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes
a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI)
DSP-based amplifier management system including 2 stages
of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers
at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay.
Curiously enough, there are three Xti models with an
approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that are all
the same size and weight.

I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I
often recommend them to audiophile friends in the market
for a new solid-state amp. Steering them away from
audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to
avoid paying for the audiophile hype and "bling".

Right. The Crowns have fans, but if you don't really push them, the fans
barely turn over and the amps run cool. I had to put mine under high power
testing to get the fans to run perceptibly.

I agree. These amps are designed for heavy duty, so reliability is important
and they are used by fussy recording engineers to drive studio monitors as
well as for sound reinforcement of live concerts and discos. They are
designed to function every bit as well performance-wise as some of these very
expensive audiophile amps and are probably more robustly built.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Sep 3, 5:53*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



I don't know much about the Leben

Which curiously enough is the topic of most of the discussion here.

but I do know a little
about two of the most popular whipping posts Wavac and
Audio Note.

Note the hidden change of topic.

Hidden change of topic? Dick made a comment about grotesquely
overpriced Asian products and I responded to that. If you feel Dick
has somehow wrongly changed the subject then take it up with Dick or
the moderators.



*I'm not making any sort of comment on their *value

So your claim that value-wise they are whipping posts has nothing to do with
value?

No. I am simply challenging Dick's assertion about "grotesque
overpricing." I have already explained the difference between fair
pricing of a product and the subjective concept of value.



*but there is no question that given their materials
and labor along with shipping and duties the price has to
be very high.

Duties?

"In economics, a duty is a kind of tax, often associated with customs,
a payment due to the revenue of a state, levied by force of law. It is
a tax on certain items purchased abroad. [1]Properly, a duty differs
from a tax in being levied on specific commodities, financial
transactions, estates, etc., "
wikipedia.


Labor?

That is the manual work done to make the product. It costs money.



Isn't it a level playing field - people can build amps wherever they want to
and ship them wherever they need to?


They can. That does not eliminate the costs I have cited.



*It's up to the consumer to decide if they
are worth it.

A large number of consumers have made their decisions and they are staying
away in droves.

It seems enough have decided to buy to keep Wavac, Audionote and other
makers of SETs in business. So what?



But seriously, we are talking about
multiple hand wound solid silver transformers,

Which have no known sonic advantages. Since the goal of the Wavac seems to
be to get the price as high as possible, why not gold windings?


Who are you to speak of the intentions of Yuzuro Ito? has he
personally called you to give you this inside information?



*solid machined aluminum alloy chasis,

Again, no known sonic advantages - just an appearance thing.

some fairly expensive tubes, etc etc.

Tube prices don't seem to be bad when you're talking about six-figure price
tags.

I'll tell you what. If anyone can build
me an exact replica of a Wavac 833 for pennies on the
dollar I may place an order.

I don't see any promise to do anything, just words. If I were to promise you
to build a Wavac 833 based on that statement, I'd be a fool!

I would think someone who has been making and selling stuff for as
long as you claim would understand how these things work.
Commissioning someone to build something isn't rocket science.


I have no doubt the Chinese
amps made with 10 cent a day labor are considerably
cheaper.

No reliable evidence that the Chinese building competitive amps are getting
10 cents a day. Reality is that they are getting order(s) of magnitude more
pay than you have claimed.

you know this how?



but that aint oranges and oranges. They are not
built anywhere near the way the Wavac amps are built.

Wavac amps are overbuilt, if sound quality is of the essence.

Some people may like overbuilt. There is lies the value factor. But
the Wavacs price is a reflection of their build and materials. They
are expensive because they cost a lot to build and import.



Try
shipping two hundred pounds of anything from Japan

Not cheap, but no justification for a six-figure price tag in just that.

It's just one factor.


*to the *U.S. then consider that you have brokers,

Who charge less if the equipment costs less.


But clearly a product like Wavac can't cost less becuae of what goes
into it. so the mark ups go up proportionally.



and distributers taking their cut

Probably at exhorbitant rates.


Probably not.




*before the product ever makes it to the dealer.

Who no doubt gets an exhorbitant markup as well.

I'll bet they get a smaller percentage markup than most audio
products.



Hand built artisan products
simply can't be done cheap,

I routinely pay less than $5 a loaf for artisan bread...


If you can't tell the difference between a loaf of bread and a Wavac
amp.....



especially when they are imports

Depending on country of origin there may be no duties at all.

and weigh half a ton.

I thought the Wavac weighed about 1/20th of a ton. *Are you really off by a
factor of 10 from even your earlier statement?

Depends on the Wavac. The SH -833 with the power supplies actually is
about a half a ton.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Sep 3, 7:15*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message







On Sep 2, 5:26 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce
wrote:
Does George Tice's clock improve the "quality of
experience" because it really does align the electrons?
And because it allegedly does, he deserve the
outrageous price he charges? Is that what contributes
to the "quality of the experience?" And what,
precisely, happens to that "quality of experience"
when it's revealed that, in fact, his claim is
completely vacuous? Is it now all about the price
being the reason for the "quality of experience,"
because when the emperor is found to be naked, we find
that Tice's clock is no different from an ordinary
Radio Shack clock, indeed it IS an ordinary Radio
Shack clock? What happens to the "quality of
experience? when
we see the emperor in the altogether?
That is a testable question. Do bias effects continue to
affect one's perception even after one fails to hear
differences under bias controlled conditions?
Depends on the nature of the bias.
How so?

Due to the vague nature of the question, its hard to answer.

You are the one who made the claim. I only asked you to explain it.
Does that mean your own claim is too vague for you to explain?


*Do you have some real meaningful information on
the subject?

I need a relevant, meaningful question to answer.

I asked you if you have any meaningful information on bias effects
that continue to be in play even after the bias has been exposed by
bias controlled tests. You had a meraningful question. I'm going to
guess that you simply have nothing to offer ont he subject. Fair
enough. I'll run it by JJ. I'm sure he knows a good deal about that
sort of thing.


*Or should we just ask JJ?

I think JJ swore off of Usenet. I'm in touch with him regularly, but he's
pretty busy these days.

he's great about answering these kinds of questions.



My understanding is that often yes, people continue to
perceive improvements that are purely bias related
perceptions.

Often seems to be a meaningless hedge word here.
No. It is vague. I don't have hard numbers. but it is not
meaningless.

There you go.

OK ww agree. Vague because I don't have hard numbers but not
meaningless.



That would be a continued improvement in the
quality of experience.
The obvious indicator of bias here being that there is
this massive experience of audiophiles, where almost any
change is perceived as an improvement.
That's news to me.

It's up to you to inform yourself.

Do tell us your source for factual information about the "mass
experience of audiophiles." I think you are just making it up.



Sure this isn't just your own bias talking here?

Yes.


I think you are mistaken as so many are when their biases are in play.
No big deal though.



Not that it matters.

Begging the question, why bother to answer your posts?


you gotta ask yourself that question in private Arny. No one is
forcing you to respond.


Improved quality of
experience is improved quality of experience regardless
of the underlying mechanisms.

Ah yes, the solipsist's defense - "It's better because I say it is".


Yep. either one takes such a position in audio as a hobbyist or one
has to form a posse to feel better about their own perceptions. I just
don't need that crutch. When I sit and listen to music the only one
who needs to be pleased is me.


Whether or not this is a
common or rare phenomenon matters not.

Sure it does.

How so?



If you actually work with sound, you find that most
changes don't actually improve things. In some cases
there are no changes that are possible at all that will
improve things.
Now *that* is so vague as to be meaningless.

Again, begging the question, why bother to answer your posts?

That is a question for you to answer for yourself Arny.


And the same is true of badly designed CD players with
'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and
bricks and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced
amplifiers from the far east, some of whom are in
violation of the law because they can't even meet
their own published specifications? How does the
obscene pursuit of insane profits enhance "quality of
experience" for anyone else besides the merchant and
manufacturer?
How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east are
"overpriced?"
Dollars per watt of clean power.
What does that have to do with the real world cost of
parts, labor, shipping and duties?

Asked and answered, just below.

Not really. but i can answer it. It has nothing to do with real world
costs.



Fair pricing is to a
large degree a reflection of factors such as actual costs
of making the product.

In most of the real world, its all about costs and benefits. Benefits
matter. Costs are usually subordinate to benefits.

In audio it's about costs and percieved benefits. Clearly some people
percieve a benefit that is worth the cost. Otherwise we would be
talking about these products because they wouldn't exist.



If you disagree I suggest you stay
out of any sort of business that involves making and
selling something.

I've personally been in the business of making and selling something for
over 20 years. I can't sell less benefits for more money.

Are you selling things for less than they cost you to make?



Often the ratio is near-infinite because
these amps really don't produce any power that would be
considered to be clean by modern standards.
Clean power? I thought we were talking about amplifiers
not powerline conditioners.

?????????????/

Never heard of powerline conditions used to clean the power?



I've you actually done the math? Have you
considered the costs of materials and costs of
construction along with the costs of shipping and
duties?
Just because someone chooses to build and sell
amplifiers the least economical possible way, doesn't
mean that their costs relate to value received.
*Value* is largely subjective.

To a point.

No. What makes a Picasso worth millions? It is the subjective
evaluation of value.



*But it is hard to call any
product grotesquely overpriced if the price is a fair
reflection of the costs that go into it.

No, it's very easy. The phrase "solid gold toilet brush" comes to mind. Not
much of a market for them.

But there seems to be a market for very expensive SETs. But that is
neither here nor there. If one were to make a solid gold toilet brush
one would have to charge according to the cost of materials. So an
expensive solid gold toilet brush would not actually be "grotesquely
overpriced" even if it is several orders of magnitude more expensive
than a common plastic toilet brush.



One may have the
personal opinion that it is not a good *value* but that
is quite different than calling something grotesquely
overpriced.

I think it may be fair to note that some high end audio gear is like a
"solid gold toilet brush"


Except there is a market for the gear.




Which amps are you saying are grotesquely overpriced and
which ones are in violation of the law?

The ones that aren't rated per FTC rules. The ones that
lack UL approvals
Which ones would that be. I'm looking for citations of
actual real world product here.

Good luck on doing your own research. First, you might want to familiarize
yourself as to what the FTC rules for consumer power amplifiers are


IOW you got nothing. Thought so.

[Norman Schwartz]

On Sep 4, 7:50*am, Dick Pierce wrote:

It should also be noted that I have been hired as an
expert witness in several legal cases where, among other
things, the issue of the relationship between direct
and indirect costs and suggested retail price was a
significant part of the litigation. In at least one
of those cases, my expertise and the corroborative
data I provided played a crucial role in determining
the outcome.


We all know of litigation against fast food outlets for making people
become obese, but can we also sue for having paid too much for audio
equipment?

[Rob Tweed]

Crown's Xti 2000 can be
had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @
1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms.


Hmm it's around 600 UK pounds here - typical rip-off Britain methinks!

The XTI 1000 is around 400 UK pounds however.

The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes
a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI)
DSP-based amplifier management system including 2 stages
of equalization, limiting, numerous types of crossovers
at a wide selection of frequencies, and time delay.
Curiously enough, there are three Xti models with an
approximate 4:1 difference in rated power that are all
the same size and weight.

I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I
often recommend them to audiophile friends in the market
for a new solid-state amp. Steering them away from
audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to
avoid paying for the audiophile hype and "bling".

Right. The Crowns have fans, but if you don't really push them, the fans
barely turn over and the amps run cool. I had to put mine under high power
testing to get the fans to run perceptibly.

I agree. These amps are designed for heavy duty, so reliability is important
and they are used by fussy recording engineers to drive studio monitors as
well as for sound reinforcement of live concerts and discos. They are
designed to function every bit as well performance-wise as some of these very
expensive audiophile amps and are probably more robustly built.

I wonder how the Behringer EP series of amps fares by comparison?
Again these are primarily designed for live/disco PA work but I've
seen articles where people are using them for surround cinema
speakers. The EP2000 is just over 200 UK pounds and the EP2500 is
about 240. The 2500 seems to be well regarded and doesn't seem to
suffer, from what I can tell from blogs and articles, from the poor QC
of the A500.


---

Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR

Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com

[Scott[_6_]]

On Sep 4, 5:50*am, Dick Pierce wrote:
For those of you that have any memory, you will recall
that I have specnt a major portion of my professional
life in the employ or as a consultant to a wide variety
of high fidelity companies over the last 35 years or so.
And those same people with the functional memory will
also recall that, among other things, contractual
obligations prevent me from publishing a list of who
those clients were.

With that as background,

Scott wrote:
On Aug 31, 8:46 am, Dick Pierce wrote:
And the same is true of badly designed CD players with
'blue dithering lasers" and magic wooden pucks and bricks
and CD pens and grotesquely overpriced amplifiers from
the far east, some of whom are in violation of the law
because they can't even meet their own published
specifications? How does the obsene pursuit of insane
profits enhance "quality of experience" for anyone else
besides the merchant and manufacturer?

How do you figure those amplifiers from the far east

* are "overpriced?"

Because it was and is my job to work with manufacturers
of audio equipment (mainly but far from exclusively
loudspeakers). I thus am quite familiar with the pricing
structure that leads to retail pricing decisions.


That is a lovely argument by authority. Somehow I doubt that you have
actually consulted on exotic SETs coming from Japan. feel free to
correct me if I am wrong about that. So if you are quite familiar with
pricing structure that leads to retail pricing decisions you could
easily point to a specific product that you can talk about without
violating any of your contracts, Apply that knowledge and demonstrate
that your assertion about grotesque overpricing was warrented.


It should also be noted that I have been hired as an
expert witness in several legal cases where, among other
things, the issue of the relationship between direct
and indirect costs and suggested retail price was a
significant part of the litigation. In at least one
of those cases, my expertise and the corroborative
data I provided played a crucial role in determining
the outcome.

Have you actually done the math?

Yes, hundreds of times, as a crucial part of my role
as a technical and management consultant for audio
companies.

Have you?

yeah. I did the math on the costs of building a knock off of the Wavac
833. It was a pretty substantial percentage of the actual retail
price. And that is with a product that weighs about 250 lbs., has to
be shipped from Japan and has to go through the markups of a
distributor and then a dealer. So unless you can cite actual product
that you are refering to (maybe you aren't talking about products from
the usual whipping posts like Wavac and Audio Note) I'd have to say
you are making an unfounded assertion that runs contrary to the facts
that I am aware of in regards to the actual costs of making amps such
as the high priced SETs offered by Wavac and Audio Note.

Have you considered the costs of materials and costs of

* construction along with the costs of shipping and duties?

Yes, hundreds of times, as a crucial part of my role
as a technical and management consultant for audio
companies.

Have you?

yeah. Maybe we are not talking about the same products. I ahve been
specific about the sort of products I thought you were refering to.
Don't know how to go from there if you chose to remain so vague that
we have nothing to evaluate.



* I think if you really did your homework

on this one you would find you are way off base.

For someone who is always demanding "facts," sire,
you seem to be quite eager to jump to a comclusion.


That doesn't even make sense Dick. All I am saying is what i do know
runs contrary to your overly broad assertion. If you don't want to
back your assertion with facts that is not my problem.



Indeed, I have done my homweork, and I have been doing
any number of manufacturers homework for over a third
of a century.

On what "facts' do you base your conclusion that I
am "way of base here?" I'd like to see some facts to
support your assertion here, Scott.

Shall we start with the cost of silver for the transformers? Maybe we
can talk about the cost of the chasis milled from solid stock? Costs
of custom machined tube sockets? We can break it down if you like. But
heck, you've already done this hundreds of times. Certainly you can
tell us the costs of parts and labor for something like the Wavac 833.
so we can take that number, look at shipping and then we can use your
vast knowledge costs to price ratios and figure out if it is
grotesquely over priced. What is a fair price ratio of a product that
is imported from Japan and has a U.S. distributor and local dealers? I
remember Bill Johnson saying that his products were usually priced
around five times the costs of materials. But his is a domestic
product that only requires domestic shipping and no distributor. So
what is a fair ratio for an import like the Wavac? A product made in
very limited runs by a small artisan business? 10 to 1? 8 to 1? what
is a reasonable margin for a small business like Wavac? I'd think 10%
to 20% would be quite reasonable. Feel free to step in and correct any
of my numbers here if you think they are way off.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sonnova" wrote in message

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:26:22 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in message

On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 06:15:20 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Sonnova" wrote in
message

Arnie is terribly biased on many subjects,

As if that were something that only affects me.

Well of course it doesn't ONLY affect you. I didn't mean
to infer that it does. We all have our biases and some
aren't really rational. But it helps to keep these
biases in mind when reading other posters' (they always
come out over time in a regular's posts) opinions or
when taking advice from them.

There's a complete lack of modern perspective here.
Tubes and Vinyl are a bias away from the contemporary
order of things. They are also the opposite of the true
meaning of High Fidelity.

And that's your bias.

Prove me wrong on either issue. Its not bias, its how the mainstream world
is.

Mine is that tube amps are another
way of creating the power required to drive speakers and
are categorically speaking, neither good nor bad. I.E.
there are good ones and there are not so good ones.

I agree with that. My serious argument against tubes is that they are
expensive and impractical ways to obtain clean power.

Vinyl is another music source and again some are very, very
good, and some are awful. The best sound more like real
music than the best digital, but the average digital is
better than MOST vinyl.

That is a fallacy, pure and simple. A tiny noisy minority thinks and talks
like that, but it doesn't make it so.

In the day the Dyna Stereo 70 used P-P EL34s and ran
about $100-129. I seem to recall the kit was about $80.

Yes, but it was only 35 Watts/channel while the larger of
these amplifiers is quite a bit bigger - say, on par with
a pair of Dyna MKII or MKIIIs?

According to the online 1964 Radio Shack catalog, Mark IIIs were $ 80
each.

and if we use
the same formula I did with the Leben vs an Eico with
similar topology, of 12X (the difference between what a
dollar is worth now compared to then) these amps should
cost $2400 and $3600 respectively.

That would put a Dyna 70 at about $1200-1500 inflated
dollars. Probably not too far off.

That's correct. When some company bought the Dyna name
back in the mid '90's, they reissued the the Stereo 70 at
right about $1100.

I remember the event. I'll accept your detail about the price.

Their actual selling
princes of $419 and $649 simply goes to show you what
the US markup is on gear made in China. I bet the guy
who imports this Cayin stuff is making 10X profit on it!

Could be. These days just about everything is assembled
in China, no matter where the alleged manufacturer's
headquarters are.

True. One thing about the Yaqin amps you referenced is
that their Canadian importer QC's each, on premises,
before they are sent out to customers. In my estimation,
Behringer should do the same. It would cost them less in
the long run, I believe.

IME, you have had far worse than average experience with Behringer. I have
a fair amount of it, and it all worked when unboxed. It kept on working,
too.

BUT, I understand that the quality
contol on Behringer amps is atrocious.

I have a few and I have several friends who have a
number of them. No problems.

I had to go
through two of them before I found one that worked
correctly.

Could be that you were dealing with one of those dealers
who cycles his customer returns through several
customers before he gets down to business and sends it
back for seviceing.

These came directly from Behringer. No middle man.

Thanks for confirming that - ouch!

The first one buzzed through the speakers and
the second one had a great deal of distortion on the
right channel if one cranked it above a whisper.
Behringer, I must say, took care of me right away,
dispatching replacements to me overnight. The one I
ended up with is fine with no problems and I'm on my
third summer with it.

These bad amps came directly from Behringer?

Yep.

Maybe they picked up some bad habits from one of their largest retailers -
Guitar Center.

Crown's Xti 2000 can be
had for less than $500 and puts out more than 900 wpc @
1KHz @ 2 ohms and about half that at 8 ohms.

The Crown Xti series is interesting because it includes
a full user programmable (via USB-connected GUI)
DSP-based amplifier management system including 2
stages of equalization, limiting, numerous types of
crossovers at a wide selection of frequencies, and
time delay. Curiously enough, there are three Xti
models with an approximate 4:1 difference in rated
power that are all the same size and weight.

I think these studio monitor amps are a great buy and I
often recommend them to audiophile friends in the market
for a new solid-state amp. Steering them away from
audiophile amps merely means that I'm helping them to
avoid paying for the audiophile hype and "bling".

Right. The Crowns have fans, but if you don't really
push them, the fans barely turn over and the amps run
cool. I had to put mine under high power testing to get
the fans to run perceptibly.

I agree. These amps are designed for heavy duty, so
reliability is important and they are used by fussy
recording engineers to drive studio monitors as well as
for sound reinforcement of live concerts and discos. They
are designed to function every bit as well
performance-wise as some of these very expensive
audiophile amps and are probably more robustly built.

Well, they will probably take the drop test with more grace than any tubed
unit ever could.

I say this with far more experience with ruggedized tube equipment than
most. ;-)

[[email protected]]

Norman Schwartz wrote:
On Sep 4, 7:50 am, Dick Pierce wrote:
It should also be noted that I have been hired as an
expert witness in several legal cases where, among other
things, the issue of the relationship between direct
and indirect costs and suggested retail price was a
significant part of the litigation. In at least one
of those cases, my expertise and the corroborative
data I provided played a crucial role in determining
the outcome.


We all know of litigation against fast food outlets for making people
become obese, but can we also sue for having paid too much for audio
equipment?
,
Don't know if it's the situation in Dick's case, but contracts with
CMO's (contract manufacturing organizations) are often written on a
"cost of goods +" basis, e.g., COG + 15%. The CMO is obligated to track
materials and direct labor costs to determine COG and the subsequent
sales price. Sometimes the CMO is...less than rigorous...in COG
calculations, and litigation results at times. Not unheard of in the
pharma world, but I'm not sure how common it is in the audio world. I
imagine Dick has a better idea.

Keith Hughes

[Arny Krueger]

"Rob Tweed" wrote in message


I agree. These amps are designed for heavy duty, so
reliability is important and they are used by fussy
recording engineers to drive studio monitors as well as
for sound reinforcement of live concerts and discos.
They are designed to function every bit as well
performance-wise as some of these very expensive
audiophile amps and are probably more robustly built.

I wonder how the Behringer EP series of amps fares by
comparison?

For openers, the Behringer amps are dumb and in no intelligence - no DSP.
You have to buy their $300 electronic crossover to compete.

The EP 2500 is no longer on their web site as being for sale in the US.

The EP4000 that apparently replaces the 2500 appears to be a very similar
amp, but with higher power ratings obtained under looser operating
conditions.

When I get back to testing power amps, I will be able to compare an XTi 2000
to an EP 2500 as they are both acessible to me. I recently updated the power
lines to my work shop to 120-0-120 volts @ 30 amps or if you will 240 volts
@ 30 amps for the purpose. Many modern power amps can't be run at full
output without blowing 15 amp circuit breakers.

BTW Behringer has some new switchmode power amps on their web site, but they
still need an outboard signal processor.